EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 262
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
I really think its the maps though  | ||
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WaKai
Canada88 Posts
The problem is that zerg get to many drones out so early. Maybe if they made queens cost an extra 50 gas so that they weren't the most cost efficient unit unit in the game. someone showed this to be true when they went down to the numbers. By doing this, it forces the zerg to get an earlier gas. Have to make a decision between speed for lings or more economy, opening up a window to punish the zerg for being greedy. As well Queens won't be easily massed as that will delay their tech. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:00 Toadvine wrote: In a general sense, a buff to Zerg units and a nerf to their macro mechanics would be the best way to make the game reasonable again. What we'll probably get with HotS instead, is a huge nerf to all the new Zerg units, because having 80 drones at the 10 minute mark will make them extremely overpowered. There are several ways to nerf the Zerg macro mechanics: 1. Increase the cost for a new Hatchery to 350+ This will royally screw up all early Zerg timings and wont matter later on. 2. Reduce Inject Larva from producing 4 larvae to 3 or even 2. Again this will screw up the early game and wont matter much (just get 1 more hatchery than you have now and its all the same). 3. Zerg larvae get a decay time so you can only ever have 7 of them at most for every hatchery with perfect injects This wont really affect the early game, but the end game wont be affected that much either by just getting 1-2 extra hatcheries for more larva injects. I dont see how any change could be made to the Zerg macro mechanics which could not be made irrelevant by just getting more hatcheries. The only working solution IMO is to scrap the entire thing (Inject Larva) plus the macro mechanics and production speed boosts for the other two races (MULE, Warp Gate, Chronoboost, Reactor). The only change I see as "potentially viable" is to make certain Terran (Siege Tank, Thor, BC) and Protoss (Colossus, Immortal, Carrier) units FAR superior to Zerg ones in such a way that they NEED the production to keep up. | ||
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xPabt
226 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:49 WaKai wrote: Larva isn't even the problem, I've had better macro then most zerg players, usually they'll float 1000-2000 resources in the mid game while i'm at 400 floated resources. When he scouts my strat, and basically crushes it(i know how to marine split) while i have so little to build my army again, he basically rofl stomps me. The only time i win is when i actually catch the zerg droning. The problem is that zerg get to many drones out so early. Maybe if they made queens cost an extra 50 gas so that they weren't the most cost efficient unit unit in the game. someone showed this to be true when they went down to the numbers. By doing this, it forces the zerg to get an earlier gas. Have to make a decision between speed for lings or more economy, opening up a window to punish the zerg for being greedy. As well Queens won't be easily massed as that will delay their tech. Doesnt that put zerg in a worse spot then before the queen buff when everyone thought zvt was balanced? | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:49 WaKai wrote: Larva isn't even the problem, I've had better macro then most zerg players, usually they'll float 1000-2000 resources in the mid game while i'm at 400 floated resources. When he scouts my strat, and basically crushes it(i know how to marine split) while i have so little to build my army again, he basically rofl stomps me. The only time i win is when i actually catch the zerg droning. The problem is that zerg get to many drones out so early. Maybe if they made queens cost an extra 50 gas so that they weren't the most cost efficient unit unit in the game. someone showed this to be true when they went down to the numbers. By doing this, it forces the zerg to get an earlier gas. Have to make a decision between speed for lings or more economy, opening up a window to punish the zerg for being greedy. As well Queens won't be easily massed as that will delay their tech. So basically you trade in "losing Drones from Hellion harrass" for "not getting Drones due to delayed Queens"? Not really a good change and Zerg will just get those 50 gas per hatchery for the Queens and then proceed with mass Drones as they do now. It wont affect the late game - which is the actual problem - at all. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11058 Posts
On July 16 2012 00:27 Shiori wrote: Void Rays should be better than they are, lol. I'm sorry, but building a few Hydras should set you a bit behind because building a few Void Rays sets me a bit behind. You shouldn't be able to defend EVERYTHING with minerals and static defense. I mean, at least Protoss needs to make Sentries. Yeah Queens are a little too much of a catchall. build extra queens against toss and... you get creep spread. Almost no trade off. For the cost of voids they should be a bit more effective. Then again blizz didn't want air builds being dominant that's why they changed the spore burrow time. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:49 WaKai wrote: Larva isn't even the problem, I've had better macro then most zerg players, usually they'll float 1000-2000 resources in the mid game while i'm at 400 floated resources. When he scouts my strat, and basically crushes it(i know how to marine split) while i have so little to build my army again, he basically rofl stomps me. The only time i win is when i actually catch the zerg droning. The problem is that zerg get to many drones out so early. Maybe if they made queens cost an extra 50 gas so that they weren't the most cost efficient unit unit in the game. someone showed this to be true when they went down to the numbers. By doing this, it forces the zerg to get an earlier gas. Have to make a decision between speed for lings or more economy, opening up a window to punish the zerg for being greedy. As well Queens won't be easily massed as that will delay their tech. Sure, when orbital commands start costing gas I'll be on board with queens costing gas | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:00 Toadvine wrote: In a general sense, a buff to Zerg units and a nerf to their macro mechanics would be the best way to make the game reasonable again. What we'll probably get with HotS instead, is a huge nerf to all the new Zerg units, because having 80 drones at the 10 minute mark will make them extremely overpowered. I do see what you mean and I agree for WoL. But we don't know the metagame for HotS yet. F.e, if Protoss will be able to go nexus-->gateway with the mothershipcore and good stalker/sentry micro to hold against early allins. But then Protoss might also be able, to skip forge and canon completly early on and just get their tech and pressure going so fast, that fast third might just not be an option at all for zerg, or at least the droning for it will be extremly delayed and early ling speed might be necessary etc. But with the swarm host, zerg might on the flipside get a very solid universal unit (antiair, antiground, good techshare with the infestor, good tech transition potential due to the infestation pit-->hive) to be able to get more aggressive safely. Also with the hydralisk upgrade on hive, going for 2base hydra might be OK, as hydrapressure might be able to accomplish something early, but you don't straight up lose the game if you don't win with it, as hydras might have quite some value later on as well. Also the amount of early hivetech (compared to latehive tech like Broodlord, Ultralisk and upgrades, which all take a long time to produce and cost a lat) increases drastically (right now only adrenalin glands is such a tech). With hydra speed and viper there might be superearly hive rushes coming up (like 10min hive starts), as you have interesting options that don't require 4+ bases (Broodlord, Ultralisk) and that you can get very fast and use it in timings (unlike 3-3; which you cant start anyways with hiverushes, because you can't afford 2-2 so early already while going for hive). So I think you could be right if the metagame stays the same, but if T/P have potent pressure options, or more potent lategame strategies (like Mech might be something like that in the new TvZ HotS Mech metagame) that require the zerg to harass, the Zerg strategies could also see quite some change. (also reactored widow mine expand to destroy queens early on, could be superpotent to slow down zergs) | ||
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[Azn]Nada
United States275 Posts
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WaKai
Canada88 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:57 Rabiator wrote: So basically you trade in "losing Drones from Hellion harrass" for "not getting Drones due to delayed Queens"? Not really a good change and Zerg will just get those 50 gas per hatchery for the Queens and then proceed with mass Drones as they do now. It wont affect the late game - which is the actual problem - at all. 1 queen can stop hellions from getting into your main. Do what the T's do which is to have your nat less saturated when your defense is weak. It does solve the problem. If we limit the amount of drones you can make in the first 10 minutes. It means that you have more decisions to make rather than none. If you have to dedicate 100 gas to queens it means speed is delayed. If you want to get ahead early it should be a risk to do so. Zerg went from the reacting race to: i don't care what you do, i got ma queens. Late game is fine, it's just that if zerg can get to that sweet spot of their economy while they stop the other races from reaching that sweet spot is what makes them op in the late game. If we make it so that it takes longer for zerg to get there, then the other races have chance to be on even economy. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On July 16 2012 03:04 mierin wrote: Sure, when orbital commands start costing gas I'll be on board with queens costing gas Basically, this. | ||
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
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whatevername
471 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:57 Rabiator wrote: Uhhh...it would make it impossible for zerg to win. We would have no larva, no ling speed no tech no infestor no muta no drone if that happened. It would be impossible to beat ANYONE even two leagues below your level.So basically you trade in "losing Drones from Hellion harrass" for "not getting Drones due to delayed Queens"? Not really a good change and Zerg will just get those 50 gas per hatchery for the Queens and then proceed with mass Drones as they do now. It wont affect the late game - which is the actual problem - at all. On July 16 2012 03:56 Adonminus wrote: Tvz has swung back to balance in korea, byun just wtf raped nestea, maybe NA terrans should spend less time complaining and more time changing their play styles to the mass bio mass expand style kors have been doing? Everyone I play at top diamond goes marine tank two base timings, which havent worked in AGES.The problem is that if you nerf zerg for ZvT, it may cause problems to ZvP which is currently very nicely balanced. Only possible way to bring balance back is to simply revert queen range to 3, or at least to 4 instead of 5. I simply don't see any other possible solution that won't hurt ZvP. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:51 Rabiator wrote: There are several ways to nerf the Zerg macro mechanics: 1. Increase the cost for a new Hatchery to 350+ This will royally screw up all early Zerg timings and wont matter later on. 2. Reduce Inject Larva from producing 4 larvae to 3 or even 2. Again this will screw up the early game and wont matter much (just get 1 more hatchery than you have now and its all the same). 3. Zerg larvae get a decay time so you can only ever have 7 of them at most for every hatchery with perfect injects This wont really affect the early game, but the end game wont be affected that much either by just getting 1-2 extra hatcheries for more larva injects. I dont see how any change could be made to the Zerg macro mechanics which could not be made irrelevant by just getting more hatcheries. The only working solution IMO is to scrap the entire thing (Inject Larva) plus the macro mechanics and production speed boosts for the other two races (MULE, Warp Gate, Chronoboost, Reactor). The only change I see as "potentially viable" is to make certain Terran (Siege Tank, Thor, BC) and Protoss (Colossus, Immortal, Carrier) units FAR superior to Zerg ones in such a way that they NEED the production to keep up. The problem with making larva inject a complete necessity in order to survive is that you pretty much 1up all the casuals. Blizzard has shown in multiple occasions that their main concern is keeping the casuals and the ESports is a bonus. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On July 16 2012 00:04 monkybone wrote: The result would simply be that Zerg makes additional macro hatches, and/or making them earlier. It's essentially an extra resource cost to Zerg. which is fine imho because currently zerg always as the ressource advantage, and if you look at the spendings on structures, zerg is the race which has too invest way way less into such buildings. Imho a larva cap could fix that problem (maybe not 7 but larva worth of 2 injects = 10 or so) | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On July 16 2012 02:51 Rabiator wrote: There are several ways to nerf the Zerg macro mechanics: 1. Increase the cost for a new Hatchery to 350+ This will royally screw up all early Zerg timings and wont matter later on. 2. Reduce Inject Larva from producing 4 larvae to 3 or even 2. Again this will screw up the early game and wont matter much (just get 1 more hatchery than you have now and its all the same). 3. Zerg larvae get a decay time so you can only ever have 7 of them at most for every hatchery with perfect injects This wont really affect the early game, but the end game wont be affected that much either by just getting 1-2 extra hatcheries for more larva injects. I dont see how any change could be made to the Zerg macro mechanics which could not be made irrelevant by just getting more hatcheries. The only working solution IMO is to scrap the entire thing (Inject Larva) plus the macro mechanics and production speed boosts for the other two races (MULE, Warp Gate, Chronoboost, Reactor). The only change I see as "potentially viable" is to make certain Terran (Siege Tank, Thor, BC) and Protoss (Colossus, Immortal, Carrier) units FAR superior to Zerg ones in such a way that they NEED the production to keep up. There are two separate problems here: 1. 80 drones at the 10:00 mark. 2. Infinite larvae lategame leading to instant remaxes. The second is relatively easy to fix by lowering the cap on the amount of larvae for a hatchery (and increasing it for a Lair and Hive respectively). The first is a lot more difficult. Ideally, you'd want the Zerg to need to build more hatcheries, starting with a much earlier macro hatch, and adding more as time goes on. The source of this whole problem is that Queens are way too cheap for how much production they provide (6 larvae per minute for 150 minerals, as opposed to ~4 larvae per minute from a 300+50 mineral hatchery). The one solution that comes to mind is making spawn larvae cost 12.5 energy and produce 2 larvae. This essentially keeps the larvae per energy ratio the same for a Queen, but 2 Hatcheries are required to make use of all the energy. Thus, if a Zerg wants a lot of larvae, they need more hatcheries. Specific values subject to change, of course. On July 16 2012 03:16 Big J wrote: I do see what you mean and I agree for WoL. But we don't know the metagame for HotS yet. F.e, if Protoss will be able to go nexus-->gateway with the mothershipcore and good stalker/sentry micro to hold against early allins. But then Protoss might also be able, to skip forge and canon completly early on and just get their tech and pressure going so fast, that fast third might just not be an option at all for zerg, or at least the droning for it will be extremly delayed and early ling speed might be necessary etc. But with the swarm host, zerg might on the flipside get a very solid universal unit (antiair, antiground, good techshare with the infestor, good tech transition potential due to the infestation pit-->hive) to be able to get more aggressive safely. Also with the hydralisk upgrade on hive, going for 2base hydra might be OK, as hydrapressure might be able to accomplish something early, but you don't straight up lose the game if you don't win with it, as hydras might have quite some value later on as well. Also the amount of early hivetech (compared to latehive tech like Broodlord, Ultralisk and upgrades, which all take a long time to produce and cost a lat) increases drastically (right now only adrenalin glands is such a tech). With hydra speed and viper there might be superearly hive rushes coming up (like 10min hive starts), as you have interesting options that don't require 4+ bases (Broodlord, Ultralisk) and that you can get very fast and use it in timings (unlike 3-3; which you cant start anyways with hiverushes, because you can't afford 2-2 so early already while going for hive). So I think you could be right if the metagame stays the same, but if T/P have potent pressure options, or more potent lategame strategies (like Mech might be something like that in the new TvZ HotS Mech metagame) that require the zerg to harass, the Zerg strategies could also see quite some change. (also reactored widow mine expand to destroy queens early on, could be superpotent to slow down zergs) This is possible, and is probably what Blizzard wants to happen. Still, I think it's better for the game if volatile mechanics like Warpgate and Spawn Larvae lose their edge. Otherwise, balance becomes really fragile, and small changes threaten to throw the entire game out of whack. Look at how the Queen buff almost invalidated the entire TvZ metagame. If everything is a bit slower and less extreme, it's a lot easier to adjust for new stuff coming up, be it as a result of strategic development or patches. | ||
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Frex
Finland888 Posts
On July 16 2012 03:04 mierin wrote: Sure, when orbital commands start costing gas I'll be on board with queens costing gas Planetary Fortress cost gas. What's your point? | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Macro mechanics have royally screwed this game up so fucking hard. The worst thing it does is to make it hard to come back. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Planetary Fortress is a stationary defense structure (and the only structure with AoE attack), while Orbital Command is a macro structure that allows you to boost your Mineral income by a good amount/reveal a certain area/get a free supply-blocked card (MULEs, Scan, calling down the supply thingy on the depot). Understand it now? | ||
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