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On January 30 2012 08:59 Blezza wrote:
I think that through sheer coincidence that Protoss just has a lack of talent.
Top zergs: Losira, Nestea, DRG , Leenock, Stephano, IdrA,Sen , (July?)
Top terrans: MMA, MVP, Jjakji, TOP, Teaja,Byun, Ganzi, Puma , (Thorzain?)
Top Protoss : MC, Genius, Huk, Naniwa
I don't really believe that this is ALL due to balance. Maybe slightly but I just think that Protoss has a lack of talent
You can easily remove IdrA, Sen, July, TOP, Byun, Puma, Thorzain from the Z and T lists.
And add Oz, Puzzle and Parting to the P list.
Yeah, I can make up "talent lists" too.
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On January 30 2012 08:28 OmiDeLta wrote:
Problem: Mothership removal in HotS; Blizzard considers Mothership a "failure" when more and more Protoss are using it today especially against late game Zerg (I am unable to find a suitable counter for late game Zerg other than the Mothership) - and most distressing of all, nobody seems to care!!!!
Solution: People speak up about it/Blizzard does not remove the Mothership
Side Effects: Protoss keeps the Mothership and has defense against late-game Zerg...?
Just something that has been bothering me ever since the announcement. Blizzard's attitude towards it was especially shocking.
I don't think that Mothership removal is a problem. The problem is BL+infestor late game.
Mothership is only an imbalanced (archon toilet), poor solution against incorrectly positioned zerg army. If zerg splits his army it won't really work, so it's not right answer for BL+infestor, but at the moment the only one available.
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On January 30 2012 09:56 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote:
I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm.
If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss.
Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit.
What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance.
If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring.
The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls'
Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP
I agree! In fact I suggested this change in the OP! Manually charged chargelots with more precision in where they charge to would make PvT so much more interesting.
The problem is that Blizzard is doing the exact opposite. They are TAKING OUT micro tricks from toss. They got rid of Fazing which turned void ray micro from extremely important to "meh". They took out the ability to charge zealots off of one another. They even took away the ability to micro zealots while they are charging. They lowered the damage and cooldown for the colossus, making micro less important for it as well. They even wrecked carrier micro from BW. Protosses have been trying to find these kind of tricks since beta, and Blizzard just patches them out when we do. Don't put your hopes on them adding anything like that in.
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Though most Terrans achilles cord are Protoss.
All SlayerS Terrans, all oGs Terrans, MVP etc.
The question is: is it cause they lack practice or cause they dont train enough for this MU? Or is it because the Matchup is unforgiving etc.
Its balanced after all imo  [/QUOTE]
You're right, it's clearly because "they lack practice or cause they dont train enough." if you think it's balanced, go tell blizzard and all the professional protoss players in the world, because they don't agree.
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On January 30 2012 10:05 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 09:56 Techno wrote:On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote:
I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm.
If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss.
Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit.
What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance.
If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring.
The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls'
Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP
I agree! In fact I suggested this change in the OP! Manually charged chargelots with more precision in where they charge to would make PvT so much more interesting. The problem is that Blizzard is doing the exact opposite. They are TAKING OUT micro tricks from toss. They got rid of Fazing which turned void ray micro from extremely important to "meh". They took out the ability to charge zealots off of one another. They even took away the ability to micro zealots while they are charging. They lowered the damage and cooldown for the colossus, making micro less important for it as well. They even wrecked carrier micro from BW. Protosses have been trying to find these kind of tricks since beta, and Blizzard just patches them out when we do. Don't put your hopes on them adding anything like that in.
Is "Phasing" the word you were looking for?
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On January 30 2012 10:08 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 10:05 Fig wrote:On January 30 2012 09:56 Techno wrote:On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote:
I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm.
If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss.
Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit.
What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance.
If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring.
The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls'
Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP
I agree! In fact I suggested this change in the OP! Manually charged chargelots with more precision in where they charge to would make PvT so much more interesting. The problem is that Blizzard is doing the exact opposite. They are TAKING OUT micro tricks from toss. They got rid of Fazing which turned void ray micro from extremely important to "meh". They took out the ability to charge zealots off of one another. They even took away the ability to micro zealots while they are charging. They lowered the damage and cooldown for the colossus, making micro less important for it as well. They even wrecked carrier micro from BW. Protosses have been trying to find these kind of tricks since beta, and Blizzard just patches them out when we do. Don't put your hopes on them adding anything like that in. Is "Phasing" the word you were looking for?
Nope it was called "Fazing" since I'm pretty sure the guy who discovered it and made the thread on TL was named Faze.
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On January 30 2012 10:05 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 09:56 Techno wrote:On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote:
I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm.
If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss.
Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit.
What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance.
If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring.
The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls'
Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP
I agree! In fact I suggested this change in the OP! Manually charged chargelots with more precision in where they charge to would make PvT so much more interesting. The problem is that Blizzard is doing the exact opposite. They are TAKING OUT micro tricks from toss. They got rid of Fazing which turned void ray micro from extremely important to "meh". They took out the ability to charge zealots off of one another. They even took away the ability to micro zealots while they are charging. They lowered the damage and cooldown for the colossus, making micro less important for it as well. They even wrecked carrier micro from BW. Protosses have been trying to find these kind of tricks since beta, and Blizzard just patches them out when we do. Don't put your hopes on them adding anything like that in.
they "ruined" carrier micro by making the unit do what it was supposed to do in bw? (interceptors returning to the carrier immediately)... I don't think blizzard "ruined" micro for any of the races, more it's that people are still learning how to effectively micro in sc2. How long did it take to figure out how to muta micro in BW? Learning the ins and out of the game will take lots of time.
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On January 30 2012 10:05 Drizzt3 wrote:Though most Terrans achilles cord are Protoss. All SlayerS Terrans, all oGs Terrans, MVP etc. The question is: is it cause they lack practice or cause they dont train enough for this MU? Or is it because the Matchup is unforgiving etc. Its balanced after all imo
Tbh GSL Code S Terrans have been able to get away with not practicing TvP at all for their GSL series for like 6 months, except occasionally pulling out some variant of one base all in which have been, and will always be, very hard to hold. I would find it normal that they're kind of rusty in that matchup.
It's fine as long as no Terran "obviously better" than his Protoss opponent gets eliminated in a Bo5 series I would say. Overall the better player still wins more often than not, even in TvP.
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Yeah I agree on the Dskreet-charge thing. When I picked up sc2 I always asked myself why Charge gave Zealots auto charge. It's just one little thing that favours 1a over unit control and it also make the zealot kinda bland if that is the right word for it? Johnny in plat makes just as good use of them like anyone in Master/GM and thats just bad. It would also be good if you had to activate charge instead of it being auto because that way low APM players wouldn't be able to just rely on this meatshield of chargelots doing the work for them.
Sucks that Blizzard never will think of the micro opportunity non-auto chargelots would bring and how it would reward better players.
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On January 30 2012 10:13 DYEAlabaster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 10:05 Fig wrote:On January 30 2012 09:56 Techno wrote:On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote:
I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm.
If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss.
Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit.
What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance.
If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring.
The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls'
Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP
I agree! In fact I suggested this change in the OP! Manually charged chargelots with more precision in where they charge to would make PvT so much more interesting. The problem is that Blizzard is doing the exact opposite. They are TAKING OUT micro tricks from toss. They got rid of Fazing which turned void ray micro from extremely important to "meh". They took out the ability to charge zealots off of one another. They even took away the ability to micro zealots while they are charging. They lowered the damage and cooldown for the colossus, making micro less important for it as well. They even wrecked carrier micro from BW. Protosses have been trying to find these kind of tricks since beta, and Blizzard just patches them out when we do. Don't put your hopes on them adding anything like that in. they "ruined" carrier micro by making the unit do what it was supposed to do in bw? (interceptors returning to the carrier immediately)... I don't think blizzard "ruined" micro for any of the races, more it's that people are still learning how to effectively micro in sc2. How long did it take to figure out how to muta micro in BW? Learning the ins and out of the game will take lots of time.
Well if how the patches are currently going is any indication, if someone discovers the next "muta micro," Blizzard will promptly take it out of the game. THAT is the problem here. They have a vision of how the game should work, and any unintended nuances that people discover are patched out.
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On January 30 2012 09:35 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 08:59 Blezza wrote:
I think that through sheer coincidence that Protoss just has a lack of talent.
Top zergs: Losira, Nestea, DRG , Leenock, Stephano, IdrA,Sen , (July?)
Top terrans: MMA, MVP, Jjakji, TOP, Teaja,Byun, Ganzi, Puma , (Thorzain?)
Top Protoss : MC, Genius, Huk, Naniwa
I don't really believe that this is ALL due to balance. Maybe slightly but I just think that Protoss has a lack of talent wtf kind of a "Top Protoss" list is that? There's no whitera, sase, hero,puzzle, oz, or inori, all of whom are debatably top protosses. why did you include genius? wtf? he was in code s for awhile going 1 base void ray almost every single game and then he got knocked out...
Genius had by far the strongest showing in the latest code s round of 32. Seriously strong games, not VR all ins. Will be interesting to see how he plays vs non MVP players ... like DRG ... oh, whoops 
hero should be in that list, puzzle looked average honestly. Parting is worth a mention as a possible rising star. He was the only newcomer to code s to make it to the round of 16, and did it strongly too.
but arguably there is plenty of 'talent' playing protoss who have not had the success you would expect.
It's also interesting that none of the pro bw players that I know of are playing protoss in SC2. admittedly I don't know the BW pro scene, so if someone can point me to a BW pro switching to protoss, i've love to checkout their stream...
Heh, I'd LOVE IT if charge was like stim. Hit the 'C' button and zealots all charge for 3 seconds, regardless of a target. Quickly charging zealots across the map, box a small amount, give them parts around the MMM ball and hit c for the quick surround. Awesome.
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On January 30 2012 09:59 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 04:30 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I have not so much a problem with balance (me losing is because I am really really bad at the game), but I feel like sc2 is a bit "set". This will be from a terran perspective because quite honestly I couldnt kill an undefended base as z or p.
Let me elaborate.
For example, SK Terran is no good vs zerg. Fungal hardcounters bio to uselessness. Banelings slaughter bio with no tanks. And vs protoss mech is useless, but at the same time Vikings is not optional at all. With enough colossus and storm bio is useless. But mech is useless as well.
So basicly bio with Vikings is the game vs protoss, while marine/tank is the game vs zerg. Alternatives are basicly funny kinds of harass or allins before the good stuff comes out.
Is it just me, or does it seem like sc2 need some work on varations? Go tell vileIllusion "vs protoss mech is useless," I don't think he's picked up on that, it seems to be working well enough for him. I don't know how you can say that vs storm bio is useless, when the counter to high templar, the ghost, is a bio unit. Somehow you also convinced yourself that vikings don't counter colossi, and that you "have not so much a problem with balance"
I'm sorry, but who has this been working against? The only thing I've ever seen out of Illusion was in a tournament the other day against iNcontroL where he didn't make an expansion until the fourth game.
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On January 30 2012 10:22 Loki57 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 09:59 Drizzt3 wrote:On January 13 2012 04:30 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I have not so much a problem with balance (me losing is because I am really really bad at the game), but I feel like sc2 is a bit "set". This will be from a terran perspective because quite honestly I couldnt kill an undefended base as z or p.
Let me elaborate.
For example, SK Terran is no good vs zerg. Fungal hardcounters bio to uselessness. Banelings slaughter bio with no tanks. And vs protoss mech is useless, but at the same time Vikings is not optional at all. With enough colossus and storm bio is useless. But mech is useless as well.
So basicly bio with Vikings is the game vs protoss, while marine/tank is the game vs zerg. Alternatives are basicly funny kinds of harass or allins before the good stuff comes out.
Is it just me, or does it seem like sc2 need some work on varations? Go tell vileIllusion "vs protoss mech is useless," I don't think he's picked up on that, it seems to be working well enough for him. I don't know how you can say that vs storm bio is useless, when the counter to high templar, the ghost, is a bio unit. Somehow you also convinced yourself that vikings don't counter colossi, and that you "have not so much a problem with balance" I'm sorry, but who has this been working against? The only thing I've ever seen out of Illusion was in a tournament the other day against iNcontroL where he didn't make an expansion until the fourth game.
vileIllusion got 24th at Providence, taking out Sheth, KawaiiRice, Spanishiwa. He also took out 2 FXO members and should have won vs asd as well. He's not the greatest player in the world, but he sure isn't bad either. He also beat Ret, DeMuslim, and KawaiiRice (again) to qualify for IEM Sao Paulo.
So he's not bad, but he's better than most.
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On January 30 2012 10:14 Gosi wrote:
Yeah I agree on the Dskreet-charge thing. When I picked up sc2 I always asked myself why Charge gave Zealots auto charge. It's just one little thing that favours 1a over unit control and it also make the zealot kinda bland if that is the right word for it? Johnny in plat makes just as good use of them like anyone in Master/GM and thats just bad. It would also be good if you had to activate charge instead of it being auto because that way low APM players wouldn't be able to just rely on this meatshield of chargelots doing the work for them.
Sucks that Blizzard never will think of the micro opportunity non-auto chargelots would bring and how it would reward better players.
Except that Johnny Plat will let his zealots auto-charge on buildings or stray units, clump up, get trapped behind his stalkers, go at buildings, while pros SHOULD be good enough to not only 'bait' charges, set up walls for zealots, and make the angle bad for them, but also the toss player should know how to work around that. Charge allows Johnny Plat/Bronze to take advantage of the ability, but the skill ceiling has yet not been explored for it.
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On January 30 2012 10:22 Loki57 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 09:59 Drizzt3 wrote:On January 13 2012 04:30 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I have not so much a problem with balance (me losing is because I am really really bad at the game), but I feel like sc2 is a bit "set". This will be from a terran perspective because quite honestly I couldnt kill an undefended base as z or p.
Let me elaborate.
For example, SK Terran is no good vs zerg. Fungal hardcounters bio to uselessness. Banelings slaughter bio with no tanks. And vs protoss mech is useless, but at the same time Vikings is not optional at all. With enough colossus and storm bio is useless. But mech is useless as well.
So basicly bio with Vikings is the game vs protoss, while marine/tank is the game vs zerg. Alternatives are basicly funny kinds of harass or allins before the good stuff comes out.
Is it just me, or does it seem like sc2 need some work on varations? Go tell vileIllusion "vs protoss mech is useless," I don't think he's picked up on that, it seems to be working well enough for him. I don't know how you can say that vs storm bio is useless, when the counter to high templar, the ghost, is a bio unit. Somehow you also convinced yourself that vikings don't counter colossi, and that you "have not so much a problem with balance" I'm sorry, but who has this been working against? The only thing I've ever seen out of Illusion was in a tournament the other day against iNcontroL where he didn't make an expansion until the fourth game.
Then you probably don't watch much Day[9], do you?
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On January 30 2012 10:14 Gosi wrote:
Yeah I agree on the Dskreet-charge thing. When I picked up sc2 I always asked myself why Charge gave Zealots auto charge. It's just one little thing that favours 1a over unit control and it also make the zealot kinda bland if that is the right word for it? Johnny in plat makes just as good use of them like anyone in Master/GM and thats just bad. It would also be good if you had to activate charge instead of it being auto because that way low APM players wouldn't be able to just rely on this meatshield of chargelots doing the work for them.
Sucks that Blizzard never will think of the micro opportunity non-auto chargelots would bring and how it would reward better players.
easy to explain, why chargelots are defaulted on auto, like blizzard stated for battle hellion vs hellion. Autocharge is easier for the newbys to use, thats why its standard on. Since the other units of toss do need micro as well. If a pro leaves this on its basically the opponents own fault that they don't abuse charge on auto, as a uncontrolled charge can really easily clump zealots together for optimized aoe damage.
Using charge not on auto makes chargelots really strong against aoes (charging in group by group). You can basically take 5 chargelots send them on a ghost in the front and charge, to focus the damage on to key units.
I bet Blizzard would have preferred charge to be a skill, but then it would have been useless to newbys because they wouldn't be able to activate charge on all their new zealots, thats why they did it this way round. Makes the zealot harder to control, but charge on not auto is pretty rewarding, especially against terran.
So just because its to hard for everyone to use and they prefer the autoattack and micro their other units, doesn't mean that you can't do a damn lot of zealot micro.
Just like we might see factories spit out battle hellions and you have to morph them to normal hellions ;o. I actually found it quiet annoying for some time, to produce my vikings and had to land them by hand. (was before banelings got moved into the terran and i prefered landed vikings over marauders as baneling tanks, since you could lift the low ones and send them home for repair)
PS: funny to always read about interceptors returning to the carrier when moving stuff. People saying that should really build them atleast once. I actually like that you control the return of the interceptors. Atleast i chased down a broodlord army over the half map and my interceptors never returned once (i move commanded the carriers to get closer to the broods). Few did when the reproduced corrupters arrived, that where then under constant fire of my interceptors while my carriers flew into savety of my army. That being said, the + to massive could be removed from the corrupters again, as people have learned to use the corrupters ability. On the other hand even with the ability they performed not to well against bcs.
PPS: i love the empty bunker chargelot roasting device. Since they all try to squeeze themself into a tiny choke created by the 2 bunkers that have a lesser priority then the units behind, just to meet 6 hellions blocking the entrance and well get toasted. talking about cost effective.
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I would prefer greatly if charge was removed in favor of the old zealot leg speed, where the zealots move fast enough to execute flanks and stutter through micro during a battle, not at the same speed as your other primary army units, with mid battle zealot micro often being harmful after you get charge.
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On January 30 2012 10:57 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 10:14 Gosi wrote:
Yeah I agree on the Dskreet-charge thing. When I picked up sc2 I always asked myself why Charge gave Zealots auto charge. It's just one little thing that favours 1a over unit control and it also make the zealot kinda bland if that is the right word for it? Johnny in plat makes just as good use of them like anyone in Master/GM and thats just bad. It would also be good if you had to activate charge instead of it being auto because that way low APM players wouldn't be able to just rely on this meatshield of chargelots doing the work for them.
Sucks that Blizzard never will think of the micro opportunity non-auto chargelots would bring and how it would reward better players. easy to explain, why chargelots are defaulted on auto, like blizzard stated for battle hellion vs hellion. Autocharge is easier for the newbys to use, thats why its standard on. Since the other units of toss do need micro as well. If a pro leaves this on its basically the opponents own fault that they don't abuse charge on auto, as a uncontrolled charge can really easily clump zealots together for optimized aoe damage. Using charge not on auto makes chargelots really strong against aoes (charging in group by group). You can basically take 5 chargelots send them on a ghost in the front and charge, to focus the damage on to key units. I bet Blizzard would have preferred charge to be a skill, but then it would have been useless to newbys because they wouldn't be able to activate charge on all their new zealots, thats why they did it this way round. Makes the zealot harder to control, but charge on not auto is pretty rewarding, especially against terran. So just because its to hard for everyone to use and they prefer the autoattack and micro their other units, doesn't mean that you can't do a damn lot of zealot micro. Just like we might see factories spit out battle hellions and you have to morph them to normal hellions ;o. I actually found it quiet annoying for some time, to produce my vikings and had to land them by hand. (was before banelings got moved into the terran and i prefered landed vikings over marauders as baneling tanks, since you could lift the low ones and send them home for repair) PS: funny to always read about interceptors returning to the carrier when moving stuff. People saying that should really build them atleast once. I actually like that you control the return of the interceptors. Atleast i chased down a broodlord army over the half map and my interceptors never returned once (i move commanded the carriers to get closer to the broods). Few did when the reproduced corrupters arrived, that where then under constant fire of my interceptors while my carriers flew into savety of my army. That being said, the + to massive could be removed from the corrupters again, as people have learned to use the corrupters ability. On the other hand even with the ability they performed not to well against bcs. PPS: i love the empty bunker chargelot roasting device. Since they all try to squeeze themself into a tiny choke created by the 2 bunkers that have a lesser priority then the units behind, just to meet 6 hellions blocking the entrance and well get toasted. talking about cost effective.
The problem isn't charge's 'auto-cast' is the fact that you can only charge when you attack.
non-autocast charge doesn't give you a hell of a lot. when units get within 4 range of your zealot you charge ... so what? turn that off and you basically have the same behaviour anyway mostly your zealots died before it gets close enough to hit as opposed to dying after getting off 1 hit.
I would argue the 'micro-less' factor of charge is that you have control on how the charge is used. imagine if stim did no damage to use but immediately wore off if you gave the mmm ball a command. auto-cast stim wouldn't mean shit cause without stutter step stim is pointless. 1A stim would be terrible; no split vs banelings, no kiting zealots.
That's what the current charge mechanic is.
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On January 13 2012 09:20 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 09:17 Thombur wrote:
Tried to do a search but didn't find what I wanted. Im wondering about the resoning behind giving EMP (and snipe) a larger range than feedback? It seems to be auto-loss for protoss if both players have equal control, and unless bio army stands still EMP will deal more damage than storm as well. Words like autoloss anger me. There not the same unit, they don't need the same characteristics. I'm guessing the reasoning for snipe having 1 more range than feedback is since it takes 2 snipes to kill a high templar and only 1 feedback to eliminate a ghost. Taking HT vs Ghost in a vacuum is a bad idea. You have to consider that Colossus are likely in the battle and Tanks are likely not. Thus the ghost cannot simply walk up, snipe every HT and leave. This is only one factor in a multitude of differences between the army compositions.
Taking HT vs Ghost in vacuum leads to the HT always feedbacking the Ghost before the ghost can EMP/ 2 Shot Snipe. That's Because Feedback cast ist faster. Theoretically, HT always wins (if the ghost has more energy than HP, which leads to it's death). Practically the Ghost wins. They have more sight, thus casting earlier. The combination of scan and Ghost makes the Ghost stronger than the HT (because speedles observers are immobile). But you can't simply remove scan, because terran can't push after the 7:30 minute mark until the raven comes out due to potential army compositions including DT's.
Fixing this issue is quite a hard task. Equal trades between Ghost and HT favor terran (as long as there is no colossi in the mix).
Ghost's Snipe is too strong for the energy cost against Zerg while EMP is too strong against Toss (EMP radius is equal to Storm, so no bitching pls) because it does 100 instant DMG to shields and Energy. TvP would be okay when EMP only removes shield. This would force the terran to decide between sniping the caster or EMPing the army ( equivalent to toss who decides between FB or Storm). But this would fuck up TvZ because EMP would be useless against Infestor and Sentrys in TvP.
Maybe increasing the HT speed could help. So they can retreat easier and are bit safer against a pack of stimmed units
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On January 30 2012 10:41 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 10:22 Loki57 wrote:On January 30 2012 09:59 Drizzt3 wrote:On January 13 2012 04:30 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I have not so much a problem with balance (me losing is because I am really really bad at the game), but I feel like sc2 is a bit "set". This will be from a terran perspective because quite honestly I couldnt kill an undefended base as z or p.
Let me elaborate.
For example, SK Terran is no good vs zerg. Fungal hardcounters bio to uselessness. Banelings slaughter bio with no tanks. And vs protoss mech is useless, but at the same time Vikings is not optional at all. With enough colossus and storm bio is useless. But mech is useless as well.
So basicly bio with Vikings is the game vs protoss, while marine/tank is the game vs zerg. Alternatives are basicly funny kinds of harass or allins before the good stuff comes out.
Is it just me, or does it seem like sc2 need some work on varations? Go tell vileIllusion "vs protoss mech is useless," I don't think he's picked up on that, it seems to be working well enough for him. I don't know how you can say that vs storm bio is useless, when the counter to high templar, the ghost, is a bio unit. Somehow you also convinced yourself that vikings don't counter colossi, and that you "have not so much a problem with balance" I'm sorry, but who has this been working against? The only thing I've ever seen out of Illusion was in a tournament the other day against iNcontroL where he didn't make an expansion until the fourth game. Then you probably don't watch much Day[9], do you?
I didn't just learn about SC2 two weeks ago, so no not really much any more.
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EPT
