EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 178
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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Zagajev
Germany16 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:50 Mordanis wrote: Has anyone ever thought that workers have too much health(relative to other "fighting" units")? Certain units like the mutalisk, banshee, and dt are made to kill workers quickly, but to do that they need quite a bit of dps. This causes a few problems when they aren't harassing workers, such as the problems P has been having against mutalisks lately. If workers had less health, units like the muta could do lower dps but get a buff in another area, such as speed. This would make the units more interesting IMO, because you would have to do a lot of damage with harassment units or else your opponent could just kill you. This is actually a very interesting idea. There are some problems with it though. Zerg gets a huge nerf for one of their core units and for protoss its only a already for harrass used DT and a banshee which doesnt often get used in lategame combos. But maybe HotS fixes these things. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45360 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:50 Mordanis wrote: Has anyone ever thought that workers have too much health(relative to other "fighting" units")? Certain units like the mutalisk, banshee, and dt are made to kill workers quickly, but to do that they need quite a bit of dps. This causes a few problems when they aren't harassing workers, such as the problems P has been having against mutalisks lately. If workers had less health, units like the muta could do lower dps but get a buff in another area, such as speed. This would make the units more interesting IMO, because you would have to do a lot of damage with harassment units or else your opponent could just kill you. Wouldn't a bio drop, warp-in, or ling run-by be that much worse though? There goes the blue flame nerf too... Why not just give the workers more health? Or just keep the health the same and make static defense stronger? | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On January 31 2012 02:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Wouldn't a bio drop, warp-in, or ling run-by be that much worse though? There goes the blue flame nerf too... Why not just give the workers more health? Or just keep the health the same and make static defense stronger? I agree that right now it would make the game terrible, but from a design perspective I think it would have been a lot cooler to have units that are more specialized (lower dps, but made up for by higher mobility). | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On January 31 2012 11:22 Mordanis wrote: I agree that right now it would make the game terrible, but from a design perspective I think it would have been a lot cooler to have units that are more specialized (lower dps, but made up for by higher mobility). Changing this could be accomplished by adding a unit type- "Worker". Specialized harass units could simply have bonus damage to Worker, allowing you to nerf muta standup fight dps but allowing them to remain terrifying harass units. However, one issue I still have is Snipe vs. Z lategame. A handful of ghosts can completely obliterate overlords in a baneling drop, melt broodlords, pick off infestors, and melt ultras (of course, numbers do have to scale, but not crazy). I don't see this much in lower ratings, but in tournaments and at a pro level it can lead to some really anticlimactic matches or huge swings in momentum. There isn't much opportunity cost to produce ghosts either- who builds BCs? Obviously without snipe Ghosts would swing from OP to UP- not sure what else to compensate them with. Maybe higher energy cost on it would tone it down. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
I have been doing mass muta in ZvP for well over a year and am very well versed with its strengths and weaknesses. The build as a whole has a paper-thin defense unless you win a major engagement, at which point it becomes a run-away train. This same effect applies to multiple builds in pretty much every other match-up. If anything, I would say that the build is weak for the exact reason that so many people complain about it. After I win said major engagement, the game drags on for another 20 minutes while I mass expand and wait for you to run out of money while denying your expansions. Maybe mutas need a buff so that they can seal the deal on an already won game rather than ineffciently trading for 20+ minutes. I mean... hell.. they already lose to 1/2 their resources spent in marines, get dominated by literally 1/2 the Protoss army at equal cost, and get shut down by queens and infestors... If you argue that mutas are OP, you're basically asking that they be removed from the game. There's not much room for them to fall further. | ||
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:30 Jermstuddog wrote: I don't think I'll ever understand the suggestions that the mutalisk needs a nerf... it is already borderline UP. I have been doing mass muta in ZvP for well over a year and am very well versed with its strengths and weaknesses. The build as a whole has a paper-thin defense unless you win a major engagement, at which point it becomes a run-away train. This same effect applies to multiple builds in pretty much every other match-up. If anything, I would say that the build is weak for the exact reason that so many people complain about it. After I win said major engagement, the game drags on for another 20 minutes while I mass expand and wait for you to run out of money while denying your expansions. Maybe mutas need a buff so that they can seal the deal on an already won game rather than ineffciently trading for 20+ minutes. I mean... hell.. they already lose to 1/2 their resources spent in marines, get dominated by literally 1/2 the Protoss army at equal cost, and get shut down by queens and infestors... If you argue that mutas are OP, you're basically asking that they be removed from the game. There's not much room for them to fall further. I come to this thread expected to see some serious honest discussion, but alas the first thing I see is a zerg player complaining that Muta's UP in ZvP because he can't win the game with a harras unit quick enough. This truly shows most people are not is a position to discuss balance in a unbiased way. Seriously I don't know whether to laugh at ur comment or just cry for you.. | ||
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fantasy305
Germany34 Posts
u dont want to waste emp on zealots, since its only 50dmg of 100 potenial. soz4terribleterrible engrish | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45360 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:30 Jermstuddog wrote: I don't think I'll ever understand the suggestions that the mutalisk needs a nerf... it is already borderline UP. I have been doing mass muta in ZvP for well over a year and am very well versed with its strengths and weaknesses. The build as a whole has a paper-thin defense unless you win a major engagement, at which point it becomes a run-away train. This same effect applies to multiple builds in pretty much every other match-up. If anything, I would say that the build is weak for the exact reason that so many people complain about it. After I win said major engagement, the game drags on for another 20 minutes while I mass expand and wait for you to run out of money while denying your expansions. Maybe mutas need a buff so that they can seal the deal on an already won game rather than ineffciently trading for 20+ minutes. I mean... hell.. they already lose to 1/2 their resources spent in marines, get dominated by literally 1/2 the Protoss army at equal cost, and get shut down by queens and infestors... If you argue that mutas are OP, you're basically asking that they be removed from the game. There's not much room for them to fall further. Globally and over the past few months, ZvP has been quite one-sided (in Zerg's favor) because of muta-ling. Mass blink and storm is the only way to stop muta-ling (not even mass phoenix or archons are good enough), and so as the Zerg player, you know exactly what unit composition you're forcing (and so you can set up a tech switch or tech feign accordingly). Hell, mass mutalisks have been such a problem for Protoss, there's even the frickin tempest coming in (whose primary goal is obviously to counter mass mutalisks)! Mutalisks are great harrass units, but it should be incredibly rare for a single unit to auto-win you the game. | ||
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Blezza
United Kingdom191 Posts
On January 31 2012 00:50 Mordanis wrote: Has anyone ever thought that workers have too much health(relative to other "fighting" units")? Certain units like the mutalisk, banshee, and dt are made to kill workers quickly, but to do that they need quite a bit of dps. This causes a few problems when they aren't harassing workers, such as the problems P has been having against mutalisks lately. If workers had less health, units like the muta could do lower dps but get a buff in another area, such as speed. This would make the units more interesting IMO, because you would have to do a lot of damage with harassment units or else your opponent could just kill you. Holding off a 2 rax as Zerg would be nearly impossible with lowered drone health and 6pool would win everytime vs any race, the game is almost balanced so changing something so fundemental like that would be devastating. hots is adding more units but fundementals will have to be kept the same. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On February 01 2012 06:11 Blezza wrote: Holding off a 2 rax as Zerg would be nearly impossible with lowered drone health and 6pool would win everytime vs any race, the game is almost balanced so changing something so fundemental like that would be devastating. hots is adding more units but fundementals will have to be kept the same. You missed what my actual suggestion was. I suggested that workers have lower health in relation to everything else. I'd really like it actually if everything in the game got a big health buff, because in PvT especially battles last about 2 seconds, which is both annoying to do and watch. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
If mutaling was such an issue, ZvP SHOULD have been one-sided since release due to the fact that mutas and lings have undergone exactly 0 modifications in the released game. The truth of the matter is that mutas in ZvP have been somewhat viable at all points since release, but are never so convincingly strong that it should be concerning. Unless you play Protoss... then they're imba. As I stated above, the thing that sends Protoss players to the forum to complain about mutas actually has nothing to do with the strength of the unit and everything to do with its weaknesses. Mutas are fast and flimsey, they suck if they're getting hit at all, they have a bad tendancy to clump up if any micro is applied at all (making them very vulnerable to splash damage), and to top it all off, Protoss has 4 different units (two of which are equally so or more mobile than the mutalisk) that hands down slaughter mutas per cost. Oh yeah, all of these units have more range than mutas, and most have more health. That sounds like a pretty well balanced unit to me... Back to the point. Mutas don't win games through brute force. They win games through superior speed, maneuvering and containment which doesn't lead to a win, it leads to a 5 base vs 3 base situation. Then, considering you've dumped 100% of your gas on mutas up to that point, you are stuck with lots of mutas... and maybe speedlings... and no way to kill your opponent... so you start going for the inefficient trades. 6 mutas for 5 probes. Kill 3 cannons and 8 probes, eat 1000 damage in storms. Stuff like that... The game was over 20 minutes ago... Hell, you have 2x the income of your opponent, he SHOULD have typed out gg 10 minutes ago... but all he sees is his sick blinks and awesome storms... and the imba contain you're putting down on him. Forget the fact that its 200 supply with 3k+ of each resource vs 160 and struggling... its the mutas that are imba! I have never seen anything convincing that shows mutas are anywhere near imba or that Protoss lacks the resources to deal with them properly. If mutas need a nerf, so do blink stalkers, colossi, immortals, and HT... all those units kill me quite often in much more convincing ways. | ||
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M1cha84
Germany64 Posts
You can win with mutas, yes, but you are in a huge lead already, so it is not imba, it should be predestinated! | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On February 01 2012 08:15 Jermstuddog wrote: ZvP has been one-sided due to a lot more reasons than mutaling. If mutaling was such an issue, ZvP SHOULD have been one-sided since release due to the fact that mutas and lings have undergone exactly 0 modifications in the released game. The truth of the matter is that mutas in ZvP have been somewhat viable at all points since release, but are never so convincingly strong that it should be concerning. Unless you play Protoss... then they're imba. As I stated above, the thing that sends Protoss players to the forum to complain about mutas actually has nothing to do with the strength of the unit and everything to do with its weaknesses. Mutas are fast and flimsey, they suck if they're getting hit at all, they have a bad tendancy to clump up if any micro is applied at all (making them very vulnerable to splash damage), and to top it all off, Protoss has 4 different units (two of which are equally so or more mobile than the mutalisk) that hands down slaughter mutas per cost. Oh yeah, all of these units have more range than mutas, and most have more health. That sounds like a pretty well balanced unit to me... Back to the point. Mutas don't win games through brute force. They win games through superior speed, maneuvering and containment which doesn't lead to a win, it leads to a 5 base vs 3 base situation. Then, considering you've dumped 100% of your gas on mutas up to that point, you are stuck with lots of mutas... and maybe speedlings... and no way to kill your opponent... so you start going for the inefficient trades. 6 mutas for 5 probes. Kill 3 cannons and 8 probes, eat 1000 damage in storms. Stuff like that... The game was over 20 minutes ago... Hell, you have 2x the income of your opponent, he SHOULD have typed out gg 10 minutes ago... but all he sees is his sick blinks and awesome storms... and the imba contain you're putting down on him. Forget the fact that its 200 supply with 3k+ of each resource vs 160 and struggling... its the mutas that are imba! I have never seen anything convincing that shows mutas are anywhere near imba or that Protoss lacks the resources to deal with them properly. If mutas need a nerf, so do blink stalkers, colossi, immortals, and HT... all those units kill me quite often in much more convincing ways. KA nerf makes it way harder to deal with Mutas. Anyway, you don't need to kill your opponent; just starve him. If it takes too long for your liking, tough. Pick a different strat. Pro Terrans who play mech and end up in 50 minute games are in the same boat as you. Blink Stalkers beat mutas for cost, but only if the Mutas sit there for a good minute eating up Stalker fire. You can run in, snipe a few probes, and lose no more than a muta or two. Considering you're forcing the Toss to sit in his mineral line, who cares if you lose a Muta here and there? It pretty much comes down to whether or not the Toss has a third by the time you hit with Mutas. If he does, he has a chance. If he doesn't, he has to all-in or get extremely lucky and somehow expand. The only way to effectively deter a lot of Mutas is with HTs in the mineral line, but these are useless against the inevitable spine crawler fortress that pops up if you ever try to push. I don't know if I'm talking to a troll though; you did say that Mutas are borderline UP. Lmao... | ||
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Sackings
Canada457 Posts
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
I'm of the opinion mutaling might well be too good against Protoss, but I'm also reasonably convinced that a huge variety of timing attacks Protoss can do are probably too good against Zerg. Not to mention Zerg late-game production can be (and often is by good Protoss players) surpassed just be spending enough money on production facilities; there's nothing Zerg can do to surpass Protoss late game production speed. There's plenty of imba to go around, and whether too races are balanced or not is far more complicated than whether the dominant strategies, given the current metagame, are balanced or not. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
People complaining about mutas in PvZ don't want to see slightly reduced effectiveness, they want them to go away. As things stand now mutas are... good enough... What exactly COULD you nerf about the muta that wouldn't completely ruin the unit? They already lose to pretty much anything head-on. They are pretty much the only BW unit that didn't get +1 added to its range. Hell, they were ripped straight out of BW, only they lost their sliding-shot (not to mention Guardian/Devourer morphs). How much more do we need to take away? | ||
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Skamtet
Canada634 Posts
On January 31 2012 01:00 Dalavita wrote: Upgraded marines deal with spines extremely well.If people are talking very lategame, then what's the issue with making 6 spines per base to defend against drops? It'll make anything outside of a 3 medivac drop harmless. | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On February 01 2012 08:59 Jermstuddog wrote: I say mutas are borderline UP because they ARE. People complaining about mutas in PvZ don't want to see slightly reduced effectiveness, they want them to go away. As things stand now mutas are... good enough... What exactly COULD you nerf about the muta that wouldn't completely ruin the unit? They already lose to pretty much anything head-on. They are pretty much the only BW unit that didn't get +1 added to its range. Hell, they were ripped straight out of BW, only they lost their sliding-shot (not to mention Guardian/Devourer morphs). How much more do we need to take away? If Mutas traded "cost for cost", Z would be ridiculously favored. They're not supposed to trade evenly head on because they fly around the map harassing, picking off anything you can WHILE retaining the muta ball. You can pick off stray pylons, a few probes here and there and force a bunch of cannons while you're getting bases up, drones and tech. There's nothing Protoss can do about it in an even game until he's maxed. Suddenly you're 5/6 bases to 3 with a shitton of money in the bank and his only option is to allin. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
If Terran goes Marine and some tech, P can never ever win in a 1base vs 1 base battle unless blindly counter the T build. I dk a posible solution, but is hilarious that (talking about top korean level, don't care our little masters leagues, lol) T has a LOT of 1 base builds (i can count at least 10 of this kind of pushes) and often P has to play pretty blind, AND the T player can fake a build so easily to make the P player do a lose-build. Also, again, P has to expand as soon as posible to deal with those marine timmings or he will be dead. And not even mention that usually those builds require much less micro to attack than the defender (talking only about this 1 base attacks) | ||
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