EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 177
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On January 30 2012 11:40 Loki57 wrote: I didn't just learn about SC2 two weeks ago, so no not really much any more. It's still worth keeping an eye on the topics. I tend to give anything protoss related a look over. Recently day9 did a TvP mech daily and mech is insane vs the 'standard' toss death ball. Like rofl stomp good. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46640 Posts
On January 30 2012 14:45 KimJongChill wrote: If anyone's seen game 5 of Leenock v Morrow just now in NASL....super-late game TvZ is so heavily terran favored it's ridiculous. I'm not saying it's easy, but at the pro level it looks like there's literally nothing zerg can do. Is there any actual way to beat a turtled marine/tank/viking/raven/ghost army with mass mules and constant marine/nuke drops? ...You're joking right? Everyone deemed that entire game as a joke. Leenock was afk the entire late game with a maxed blord/ corruptor army. He could have just a-moved and won for ten straight minutes. Instead he just sat there and let his army get nuked multiple times (losing 50 supply of blords several times). And his base was blown apart dozens of times. It was a hilarious game, but the quality was awful. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On January 30 2012 14:45 KimJongChill wrote: If anyone's seen game 5 of Leenock v Morrow just now in NASL....super-late game TvZ is so heavily terran favored it's ridiculous. I'm not saying it's easy, but at the pro level it looks like there's literally nothing zerg can do. Is there any actual way to beat a turtled marine/tank/viking/raven/ghost army with mass mules and constant marine/nuke drops? Hmmm.... Step 1: shut down ghost harass with good detection radius / overlord spread Step 2: make 30 overseers Step 3: poke with broodlords / corruptors make some dent in his army Step 4: use 30 overseers to cause all buildings to stop producting Other than broodlord/infestor/corruptor (btw leenock had pretty bad air upgrades considering how late in the game), overseers can be massed once you are over 200/200 at no supply cost. Yes they are super gas heavy but in leenock's position he had more than enough gases available. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On January 30 2012 14:45 KimJongChill wrote: If anyone's seen game 5 of Leenock v Morrow just now in NASL....super-late game TvZ is so heavily terran favored it's ridiculous. I'm not saying it's easy, but at the pro level it looks like there's literally nothing zerg can do. Is there any actual way to beat a turtled marine/tank/viking/raven/ghost army with mass mules and constant marine/nuke drops? That game was stupid, both players were just screwing around. However I agree it's true that in the very late game it is terran-favored. This isn't necessarily a terrible thing though... I mean, in BW it was often the same. When both players can max on whatever they want, terran could mass science vessels and just irradiate the zerg to pieces endlessly. In SC2, it's ghosts. Zerg can only hope to grab them with fungal and put some broodlord or baneling damage onto them... it's pretty tough to land fungals on cloaked units that can EMP you (and split up if they fear fungal). The part that I don't like is the increasing power of mules over the course of a long game. A terran can struggle and finally find a way to put down an expo in a contested area... and instantly drop 15 mules on it. Even if zerg notices it asap and launches a successful attack to wipe out the expo, terran's already grabbed thousands of minerals to buy a huge ball of marines. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I think the game is pretty well balanced, I don't see any problems. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
On January 30 2012 17:15 Belial88 wrote: ^ I wouldn't say it's a balance problem rather than design problem. Zerg is just meant to be less cost efficient, split map makes it hard to break terran defensive lines when they get mass ghosts with mech out. The biggest problem is that when fielding slow t3 units, it's near impossible to deal with drops. My only complaint is that they give zerg some way to deal with drops in super lategame at hive tech (burrow move banes maybe will work for this?), but there's not much they can do. i think the swarm host (free units to cause siege tank splash) and viper will go a long way to fix the issues we see in super lategame zvt. I think the game is pretty well balanced, I don't see any problems. It is not a question of racial balance but more of the imbalances of the map. A map like antiga is just terran favored in TvZ. Terran is able to secure three bases while denying zerg their third rather easily. Also, once terran captures the middle with a PF as their fourth they completely shut down the entire map. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Like I said though, I think this may be addressed with burrow move banes for drops, and swarm host for ghost/tank/PF lines. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
attack normally with the 24minute 200food army containing broodlords, however this time you have a swarm of 12 overlords and 4 overseers around your broodlords, making it impossible to target them with snipe terran normally barely survives that normal 24minute 200food attack by sniping some broodlords with the few ghosts he has and having vikings deal with the rest. that attack happens right at the moment where the terran is using tanks to deal with ling/bane masses, however the moment broodlords hit the field with the 200food army the tanks become useless and the terran is forced to unsiege which allows the ling/bane masses to swarm him. normally terran barely survives with the few ghosts and snipe that he has however with the overlord ball technique the terran cant even snipe the broodlords. IMO lategame against terran the best way to combat snipe on your broodlords is to just float a massive ball of overlords on top of them. it really is kind of a exploit way of creating a solution, however it seems like it would work, and its not technically an exploit so go for it. only problem is if you lose a fight you lose 1500 minerals in overlords and are heavily supply blocked, so this technique does come with risk | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On January 30 2012 11:55 Kharnage wrote: It's still worth keeping an eye on the topics. I tend to give anything protoss related a look over. Recently day9 did a TvP mech daily and mech is insane vs the 'standard' toss death ball. Like rofl stomp good. mech does not work against protoss, you would need a shitton of ghosts and vikings aswell as tanks, which is really hard to get considering its all pretty gas intensive and if protoss spreads their stuff out and protoss also should have immortals,colossus,templar, a few archons, zealots and a sentry for guardian shield. you would need to emp the immortals archons and templar and also preferably the zealots and you would need vikings to kill the colossus, even then the protoss will kill alot of your stuff which you would need to replenish and the protoss can come with round 2 fairly quickly and wipe the rest of your army out if he hasnt already killed you. the basic problems with mech are that it isnt really all that efficient killing the protoss units and protoss can replenish their army much more faster than you can. also the daily day9 did was stupid, it was a horrible game where incontrol played horribly and sterling(i think it was?) was way ahead from the start and got even more ahead later on and incontrol just didnt have much stuff at all to delay or stop the pushout and he let him build planetaries and shit near him.... and also this was on xelnaga... which is not one of the best maps to showcase anything on | ||
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
On January 30 2012 17:27 Belial88 wrote: Sure, you could put it that way, that split map is a map design feature favorable to zerg. But there's a reason why split map is favorable for Terran in ZvT, but not particularly favorable for Toss in ZvP. This is because there is tech available to deal with such situations (broodlords being cost effective). Split map for ZvT is bad for zerg because zerg has no way to deal with drops when they start to field the slower t3 units, and because their siege units, aren't that great at sieging due to ghosts. Like I said though, I think this may be addressed with burrow move banes for drops, and swarm host for ghost/tank/PF lines. in TvZ the maps that allow the half map half map split to be done easily are bad maps, and if you get a half map half map split on proper maps, such as taldarim altar you need to spread your stuff even more so it is far more easier for the zerg to break through certain areas "zerg because zerg has no way to deal with drops when they start to field the slower t3 units", having tier 3 units doesnt stop you from having 20ish zerglings and a few banes and spines on your vulnerable bases and also youre going to have corruptors in a lategame situation so you can have a few going around denying drops in a lategame situation zerg can fairly easily have around 5 spines at nearly every base to protect from drops and some lings can take care of the rest of the drop and obviously if you dont deal with these drops well and they do alot of damage you get a bit behind | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On January 30 2012 11:55 Kharnage wrote: It's still worth keeping an eye on the topics. I tend to give anything protoss related a look over. Recently day9 did a TvP mech daily and mech is insane vs the 'standard' toss death ball. Like rofl stomp good. By standard death ball, do you mean the way it was about 5 months ago? The standard deathball barely exists anymore in TvP, with all the variations that Protoss are trying out nowadays. THAT ruins mech now | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On January 30 2012 20:31 Hassybaby wrote: By standard death ball, do you mean the way it was about 5 months ago? The standard deathball barely exists anymore in TvP, with all the variations that Protoss are trying out nowadays. THAT ruins mech now Nowadays it's more about Zealot Templar Archon, and with the reinforcing and massive warp ins that you have with that build, It's gotta be fast reinforcing bio to fight that. | ||
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
So just curious why that doesn't happen more. Is it the supply block potential, different movement speeds? What do you guys think / know regarding the concept? | ||
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UniQ.eu
Sweden82 Posts
On January 30 2012 20:29 KAmaKAsa wrote: in TvZ the maps that allow the half map half map split to be done easily are bad maps, and if you get a half map half map split on proper maps, such as taldarim altar you need to spread your stuff even more so it is far more easier for the zerg to break through certain areas "zerg because zerg has no way to deal with drops when they start to field the slower t3 units", having tier 3 units doesnt stop you from having 20ish zerglings and a few banes and spines on your vulnerable bases and also youre going to have corruptors in a lategame situation so you can have a few going around denying drops in a lategame situation zerg can fairly easily have around 5 spines at nearly every base to protect from drops and some lings can take care of the rest of the drop and obviously if you dont deal with these drops well and they do alot of damage you get a bit behind I take no stand in the discussed question, but you can not just leave 20ish lings + some blings at every vulnurable base. Let's say 20 lings and 4 banes, which = 12supply. Make it at 2 locations = 24 supply. Zerg can't leave out 24 supply from an already smaller army (because of queens/mules). | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On January 30 2012 23:23 UniQ.eu wrote: I take no stand in the discussed question, but you can not just leave 20ish lings + some blings at every vulnurable base. Let's say 20 lings and 4 banes, which = 12supply. Make it at 2 locations = 24 supply. Zerg can't leave out 24 supply from an already smaller army (because of queens/mules). I don't believe zerg needs to make more than the 20 lings and 4 banes to keep his vulnerable bases defended and lings/banes are pretty fast on creep anyway so it will be much easier to protect those bases, plus zerg should have more than enough time to get there if invested some resources on spine and spore crawlers. In the worst case scenario you would have to make some nydus worms to cover those bases to get some of your ground units there faster to defend the expo. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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S2Lunar
1051 Posts
You could make Ghost Mech possible but it's so incredibly gas heavy that it's almost impossible to pull off at times. | ||
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