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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
TvP was 1/1/1 for about 5 months straight. Terrans did not even need to consider other options when one was so strong. The 1.1.1 is still very good in the hands of someone with decent skills. And Slayers_Terrans...yea their playstyle is very cookie cutter of one another. Notice that DRG always roach rush and win 90% of the time with any slayers Terran. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:36 Techno wrote: QXC lost in GSL to DTs. Whitera uses special tactics all the time. Where is this coming from? If I were to go back and find a game where a protoss got smashed after going DT's, and a Terran who regularly stomps special tactics, does that mean DT's are underpowered? The quote was fairly ridiculous in it's suggestion, considering it'd nullify a lot of gasless CC builds and force fast engi bays every game. Still, given the timings of 1 rax CC/CC first, the timings of Engi bays to upgrade, conveniently timed around DT's hitting the field. Early DT's only grant map control, and after such a huge gas/tech investment it puts your other tech behind leaving you fairly vulnerable for the next 3 minutes before upgrades/storm/colossus hit the field, where T can just pile up scans, walk over and end it. Not that I think it's an issue. I find DT openers in PvT gimmicky, though the 'problem should be rephased as DT OPENERS vT in the EARLY game. DT's are AMAZING late game vs all races. No matter how many scans/turrets/cannons/spores you have, they require a defensive investment/army in position to actually stop. The REAL issue to state though is the overall map control Terran dictates for the majority of the game. DT's primary role PvT is pretty much that. DT's were almost standard for a little while but they're just not stable/safe enough and are instead tossed in as mix-ups. They're even done fully expecting a Terran to not to react and take damage, but instead remove map control which Terrans have 80%+ of the time in PvT. Of course, it might not be an issue that Terran dictates map control TvP just as zerg does ZvP, and it's more natural protoss plays that way. Protoss in this meta game are better off looking for edges in economy, almost like the new zerg of the beta. I didn't really have anything to add to this discussion. I just felt like the quote was misphrased by the poster and the following responses didn't actually refute any of the substance. I personally think DT's are fine and aren't meant to be a stable opener PvT, though it contradicts Blizzard's intentions in HotS with the new oracle, or mass recall. Their roles aren't entirely the same though similar, and it MIGHT have been more beneficial to make DT's/Phoenixes more viable in some way (i.e. re-unite the HT/DT tech again). Of course, it might not be feasible in the current state of SC2 and a new harass unit might have been required. I don't see the oracle taking map control either, but again, protoss can function without map control. | ||
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Dskreet
United States13 Posts
If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss. Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit. What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance. If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring. The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls' Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
On January 25 2012 22:50 neoghaleon55 wrote: You really can't convince someone who's made up their mind. You can however show him the GSL Where there's literally twice as many terrans as the other two races in the top 16 of this season. It's been Terran dominate like crazy since the dawn of time. It's hard to take the "Terran is weak" complaint seriously. Which Protoss players that aren't in Code S do you think belong in Code S? Which Protoss players do you think should be there, that are better than the top T's in Code S? Because certainly it's just the race that's holding these great players back. | ||
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halfies
United Kingdom327 Posts
On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote: I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm. If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss. Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit. What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance. If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring. The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls' Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP while i think this would be really cool at high level, at low level it would probably just mean charge became rarely ever used. i cant think of another way to change it without breaking it or not doing anything worthwhile to it though, so props for thinking of something so good. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On January 26 2012 06:32 architecture wrote: Which Protoss players that aren't in Code S do you think belong in Code S? Which Protoss players do you think should be there, that are better than the top T's in Code S? Because certainly it's just the race that's holding these great players back. You really want to do this huh? The following player by my personal opinion shouldn't be in code S. Gumiho, Keen, Alive, current Boxer....sorry Boxer, current Bomber Should be replaced by Losira, Huk, Killer, Bboongboong, maybe Squirtle to be fair, some non Terran players shouldn't be there either...but they're going out of code S right now anyway, so it's not an issue. | ||
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Eraserhead
159 Posts
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:04 Eraserhead wrote: Keen (you know, the guy who annihilated Huk last season), "the current" Boxer and "the current" Bomber are also out of code S.. Keen does really good against people who arent Nada and Gumiho has a 65%+ win rate against both zergs and protoss. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On January 26 2012 13:13 Adreme wrote: Keen does really good against people who arent Nada and Gumiho has a 65%+ win rate against both zergs and protoss. You realize that talking about win% defeats the purpose of the original statement saying that Terran's dominating....right? | ||
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tMomiji
United States1115 Posts
Solution: People speak up about it/Blizzard does not remove the Mothership Side Effects: Protoss keeps the Mothership and has defense against late-game Zerg...? Just something that has been bothering me ever since the announcement. Blizzard's attitude towards it was especially shocking. | ||
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Blezza
United Kingdom191 Posts
Top zergs: Losira, Nestea, DRG , Leenock, Stephano, IdrA,Sen , (July?) Top terrans: MMA, MVP, Jjakji, TOP, Teaja,Byun, Ganzi, Puma , (Thorzain?) Top Protoss : MC, Genius, Huk, Naniwa I don't really believe that this is ALL due to balance. Maybe slightly but I just think that Protoss has a lack of talent | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On January 30 2012 08:28 OmiDeLta wrote: Problem: Mothership removal in HotS; Blizzard considers Mothership a "failure" when more and more Protoss are using it today especially against late game Zerg (I am unable to find a suitable counter for late game Zerg other than the Mothership) - and most distressing of all, nobody seems to care!!!! Solution: People speak up about it/Blizzard does not remove the Mothership Side Effects: Protoss keeps the Mothership and has defense against late-game Zerg...? Just something that has been bothering me ever since the announcement. Blizzard's attitude towards it was especially shocking. I think protoss are just going to have to drop a lot more in the late game and be perfectly fine doing it. Personally I think this "WE MUST BE ABLE TO HAVE TO GIANT BEAN BAG CHAIR ARMIES TO THROW AT ONE ANOTHER" philosophy is just...lame. | ||
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Drizzt3
United States189 Posts
On January 30 2012 08:59 Blezza wrote: I think that through sheer coincidence that Protoss just has a lack of talent. Top zergs: Losira, Nestea, DRG , Leenock, Stephano, IdrA,Sen , (July?) Top terrans: MMA, MVP, Jjakji, TOP, Teaja,Byun, Ganzi, Puma , (Thorzain?) Top Protoss : MC, Genius, Huk, Naniwa I don't really believe that this is ALL due to balance. Maybe slightly but I just think that Protoss has a lack of talent wtf kind of a "Top Protoss" list is that? There's no whitera, sase, hero,puzzle, oz, or inori, all of whom are debatably top protosses. why did you include genius? wtf? he was in code s for awhile going 1 base void ray almost every single game and then he got knocked out... | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44251 Posts
On January 30 2012 09:35 Drizzt3 wrote: wtf kind of a "Top Protoss" list is that? There's no whitera, sase, hero,puzzle, oz, or inori, all of whom are debatably top protosses. why did you include genius? wtf? he was in code s for awhile going 1 base void ray almost every single game and then he got knocked out... He really should have included the other Code S Korean Protosses, but to be fair, Genius is looking really scary right now. | ||
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Therg
Sweden238 Posts
On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote: I like your approach with giving protoss more "micro tricks", the zealot legs change is a cool idea.I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm. If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss. Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit. What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance. If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring. The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls' Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP | ||
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Drizzt3
United States189 Posts
On January 13 2012 09:17 Thombur wrote: Tried to do a search but didn't find what I wanted. Im wondering about the resoning behind giving EMP (and snipe) a larger range than feedback? It seems to be auto-loss for protoss if both players have equal control, and unless bio army stands still EMP will deal more damage than storm as well. I think there are a couple reasons for this. First, EMP and snipe aren't one-shot one-kill spells, in the sense that EMP doesn't drain ALL energy/shields past a certain point, and snipe doesn't actually kill a high templar unless it's already damaged or it's shields are gone. With feedback, one hit takes away ALL the ghost's energy, and possibly kills it as well. Storm I think is range 9 partly because of the damage it can deal, and partly because you can preemptively storm slightly in front of your opponent's army so that he runs into the storm, and thus it doesn't require quite as much range as an EMP, which goes into effect instantly. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On January 26 2012 06:20 Dskreet wrote: I've read the first 5 pages and the last 10 pages or so of this thread and the "general" consensus seems to be that protoss diamond-masters is to easy, because the army is effective with less apm, while the top tier protoss army is less effective. In other words, the terran army scales better with high apm, but performs poorly with low apm. If this is true then the solution is straight forward, don't change anything about the unit strengths, just add additional micro tricks with protoss. Proposed solution: Remove auto-cast on chargelots and make it exactly the same, except it lasts slightly longer and the units follow normal pathing, rather than attacking the closest unit. i.e. they do their currently qued action faster rather than charging into the closest unit. What does this mean? If your a diamond protoss it means that to get your zealots to charge, you need to select them and press C, which makes the race slightly harder to play without significantly changing balance. If your liquid_HerO, it means that you could do cool tactics, like set an action que for the zealots where you right click behind the marauders and then a-move, after setting these two shift ques, you press 'C' and the zealots charge to the right click spot, behind the bioball, and then charge into it, the effect would still cancel on the first attack. This used in conjunction with forcefields could lead to cool micro tricks where you charge behind the ball and force field the front, creating a complete ring. The result? the a-move army is weaker, the high apm player can pull off some very complicated tricks using 'zealot walls' Side Effects: Would this screw things up with zerg? i dunno. I feel like i don't see chargelots used all that often in ZvP I agree! In fact I suggested this change in the OP! Manually charged chargelots with more precision in where they charge to would make PvT so much more interesting. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On January 25 2012 22:59 Tppz! wrote: Though most Terrans achilles cord are Protoss. All SlayerS Terrans, all oGs Terrans, MVP etc. The question is: is it cause they lack practice or cause they dont train enough for this MU? Or is it because the Matchup is unforgiving etc. Its balanced after all imo  It's simply the volatility of the matchup, with all the warpgate timings. TvZ and ZvT are often players best respective MUs not because "it's been figured out" like people claim but there aren't ridiculous fucking timings that just show up on your doorstop our of nowhere. | ||
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Drizzt3
United States189 Posts
On January 13 2012 04:30 ToKoreaWithLove wrote: I have not so much a problem with balance (me losing is because I am really really bad at the game), but I feel like sc2 is a bit "set". This will be from a terran perspective because quite honestly I couldnt kill an undefended base as z or p. Let me elaborate. For example, SK Terran is no good vs zerg. Fungal hardcounters bio to uselessness. Banelings slaughter bio with no tanks. And vs protoss mech is useless, but at the same time Vikings is not optional at all. With enough colossus and storm bio is useless. But mech is useless as well. So basicly bio with Vikings is the game vs protoss, while marine/tank is the game vs zerg. Alternatives are basicly funny kinds of harass or allins before the good stuff comes out. Is it just me, or does it seem like sc2 need some work on varations? Go tell vileIllusion "vs protoss mech is useless," I don't think he's picked up on that, it seems to be working well enough for him. I don't know how you can say that vs storm bio is useless, when the counter to high templar, the ghost, is a bio unit. Somehow you also convinced yourself that vikings don't counter colossi, and that you "have not so much a problem with balance" | ||
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