EPTMid-masters too, obviously he has learned every trick in the book but its the imbalance holding him back...
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 174
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Mid-masters too, obviously he has learned every trick in the book but its the imbalance holding him back... | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 13 2012 08:10 Techno wrote: The worst race by what measure? Surely it isnt all of them. They have 3/5 in the TLPD foreigner top 5 right now, so thats one measure of high level play. NA GM is 40% Protoss right now, so that's one measure of high level play. For the first time ever, NA GM Protosses have the highest win rate. You see that I'm not talking about Korea, and I see that too. IMO Korean Terrans like MMA, MVP & perhaps Jijakji are the best players in the world. Comparable Zergs are DRG, Nestea, Idra (in TvZ, yea im tossin him in there). Comparable Protosses are Hero and MC. MC plays a really greasy style and Hero is still a rising star. Koreans like Terran more because of the high micro capabilities, Boxer's fame and because there are more Korean Terrans to learn from. Lets imagine a hypothetical scenario. Terran is OP at the start of the game More people play Terran and do well Terran is nerfed All the shitty Terrans stop doing well There is still an abundance of top terrans There are now more top Terrans to learn from, benefitting the Terran community as a whole. What Protosses can you learn from? You cant really "learn" how to all in like MC, because its all about his unit control. You can steal builds from Tyler, I guess, but he isn't really a top player. You can learn from Hero, but again, his skills are simply sick unit control. The best player to learn from, at least in PvZ, is SlayerSBrown. Watch his game 1 vs losira on GSL (cant remember which tourny). As for PvT, well the latest win rate graphs said it was pretty balanced, I think. My ladder experience says its pretty balanced, GM winrates around the globe say its pretty balanced. Declaring an entire race OP or UP like you are doing is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss much more specific flaws in the game, resulting in a disparity in skill requirements for success. I know this isn't the best way to look at balance but I feel like the best players of their respective race have ridiculous win rates in their mirror matchup. Obviously there are exceptions but for the most part it's kind of true. For example, someone like MVP who has ridiculous TvT would be the basis for his "skill level". Then his TvZ which is slightly higher would be because terran is slightly favored vs zerg and his TvP which is slightly lower would be because Terran is slightly an underdog to Protoss. If you look at the top players, I think it kind of holds true. Nestea, MMA, MC, Oz, DRG, etc. have ridiculously win rates in their mirror matchups but their other two are more or less depending on the state of balance I feel. So coming back to what you said, yes those explanations probably do have some effect and I feel the majority of people are just frustrated from losing and it's not really imbalance but no game is perfectly balanced. Why TvZ was always Terran favored for the majority of sc2? Maybe there really is imbalance there and it's not because of "there are better Terrans" or "Protoss and Zerg need to innovate more." | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On January 13 2012 08:38 K3Nyy wrote: I know this isn't the best way to look at balance but I feel like the best players of their respective race have ridiculous win rates in their mirror matchup. Obviously there are exceptions but for the most part it's kind of true. For example, someone like MVP who has ridiculous TvT would be the basis for his "skill level". Then his TvZ which is slightly higher would be because terran is slightly favored vs zerg and his TvP which is slightly lower would be because Terran is slightly an underdog to Protoss. If you look at the top players, I think it kind of holds true. Nestea, MMA, MC, Oz, DRG, etc. have ridiculously win rates in their mirror matchups but their other two are more or less depending on the state of balance I feel. So coming back to what you said, yes those explanations probably do have some effect and I feel the majority of people are just frustrated from losing and it's not really imbalance but no game is perfectly balanced. Why TvZ was always Terran favored for the majority of sc2? Maybe there really is imbalance there and it's not because of "there are better Terrans" or "Protoss and Zerg need to innovate more." I think the game is pretty balanced at the highest level. There is a slight T>Z>P>T effect, but that was the status quo in Brood War, and everyone loved that game (including me). Why does T seem to be favoured against Z? Terran is the aggressor, if he succeeds, he wins, if his aggression fails, the game goes on. Clearly, there is a T advantage there, but that advantage is only apparant when both players are making mistakes. If both play perfectly after a Zerg crushes a marine tank push, the Zerg should win. Why does Z seem to be favoured against P? I think its just the current metagame. Protoss 1 base is not very threatening. There are no real Protoss tech->expands (1 gate SG maybe?) eg Cloak Banshee. This forces FFE, which most zergs respond to with a fast third, built in time to crush any 2 base timing (popularized by MC). SlayerSBrown really makes me feel like Protoss has a long road of evolution ahead of themselves before we go around nerfing zerg. Why does P appear to be favoured against T? This is not true at the highest level, simply due to the micro requirements, and the macro mechanics of both races. In high levels, its a pretty balanced matchup, although it is pretty volitile in the mid game. The mid game in high level play is driven by the flow of the Terran units, and the Protoss must respond. In low levels the Terrans do not understand or are not capable of proper map control and scouting techniques required to do damage in the mid game. Then they are incapable of the micro required to overcome the Protoss deathball in the lategame. In high levels, it is challenging for the passive Protoss to respond to active Terran aggression in the mid game. | ||
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Thombur
95 Posts
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Techno
1900 Posts
On January 13 2012 09:17 Thombur wrote: Tried to do a search but didn't find what I wanted. Im wondering about the resoning behind giving EMP (and snipe) a larger range than feedback? It seems to be auto-loss for protoss if both players have equal control, and unless bio army stands still EMP will deal more damage than storm as well. Words like autoloss anger me. There not the same unit, they don't need the same characteristics. I'm guessing the reasoning for snipe having 1 more range than feedback is since it takes 2 snipes to kill a high templar and only 1 feedback to eliminate a ghost. Taking HT vs Ghost in a vacuum is a bad idea. You have to consider that Colossus are likely in the battle and Tanks are likely not. Thus the ghost cannot simply walk up, snipe every HT and leave. This is only one factor in a multitude of differences between the army compositions. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On January 13 2012 09:20 Techno wrote: Words like autoloss anger me. There not the same unit, they don't need the same characteristics. I'm guessing the reasoning for snipe having 1 more range than feedback is since it takes 2 snipes to kill a high templar and only 1 feedback to eliminate a ghost. Taking HT vs Ghost in a vacuum is a bad idea. You have to consider that Colossus are likely in the battle and Tanks are likely not. Thus the ghost cannot simply walk up, snipe every HT and leave. This is only one factor in a multitude of differences between the army compositions. Ghosts do not die to a single feedback nor a single Colossus attack. I actually think the Ghost is fine, by the way. The only change I'd make is getting rid of the Psionic armor type since the thing takes way too long to die. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
On January 13 2012 09:25 Shiori wrote: Ghosts do not die to a single feedback nor a single Colossus attack. I actually think the Ghost is fine, by the way. The only change I'd make is getting rid of the Psionic armor type since the thing takes way too long to die. A ghost that gets hit by feedback is useless. Hooray for 20 damage against zealots every 2 seconds. | ||
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Thombur
95 Posts
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On January 13 2012 09:20 Techno wrote: Words like autoloss anger me. There not the same unit, they don't need the same characteristics. I'm guessing the reasoning for snipe having 1 more range than feedback is since it takes 2 snipes to kill a high templar and only 1 feedback to eliminate a ghost. Taking HT vs Ghost in a vacuum is a bad idea. You have to consider that Colossus are likely in the battle and Tanks are likely not. Thus the ghost cannot simply walk up, snipe every HT and leave. This is only one factor in a multitude of differences between the army compositions. Words like autoloss shouldn't anger you. Run army into stop lurkers: autoloss. Ghost cloaks in you have no obs all templars lose energy: autoloss. Plenty of situations where one mistake costs you the entire game and nothing can bring you back. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On January 13 2012 08:10 Techno wrote: The worst race by what measure? Surely it isnt all of them. They have 3/5 in the TLPD foreigner top 5 right now, so thats one measure of high level play. NA GM is 40% Protoss right now, so that's one measure of high level play. For the first time ever, NA GM Protosses have the highest win rate. You see that I'm not talking about Korea, and I see that too. IMO Korean Terrans like MMA, MVP & perhaps Jijakji are the best players in the world. Comparable Zergs are DRG, Nestea, Idra (in TvZ, yea im tossin him in there). Comparable Protosses are Hero and MC. MC plays a really greasy style and Hero is still a rising star. Koreans like Terran more because of the high micro capabilities, Boxer's fame and because there are more Korean Terrans to learn from. Lets imagine a hypothetical scenario. Terran is OP at the start of the game More people play Terran and do well Terran is nerfed All the shitty Terrans stop doing well There is still an abundance of top terrans There are now more top Terrans to learn from, benefitting the Terran community as a whole. What Protosses can you learn from? You cant really "learn" how to all in like MC, because its all about his unit control. You can steal builds from Tyler, I guess, but he isn't really a top player. You can learn from Hero, but again, his skills are simply sick unit control. The best player to learn from, at least in PvZ, is SlayerSBrown. Watch his game 1 vs losira on GSL (cant remember which tourny). As for PvT, well the latest win rate graphs said it was pretty balanced, I think. My ladder experience says its pretty balanced, GM winrates around the globe say its pretty balanced. Declaring an entire race OP or UP like you are doing is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss much more specific flaws in the game, resulting in a disparity in skill requirements for success. The problem with partial quotes is things can be taken out of context or ignored. At the tippy top like I said. The foriegn TLPD and ladders are not the tippy top but Korean and GSLs (one in the same really) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV I disagree with you about MC. His builds are revolutionary and featured all the time in strategy section of this web site since GSL 3 to this day. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=ogsmc&t=t&f=34&u=&gb=date&d= http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=mc&t=t&f=34&u=&gb=date&d= I didnt declare the race UP or OP I just said statistiscally, at the top, Protoss is worst and that's a fact with only 3/32 possilbe showings in 16 seasons of various S-Class GSL finals. The tippy top. I stated I don't know if protoss players are just bad or something is wrong with the game. My guess it was protoss virtually unused airforce is the problem since other units/abilities do well overall in both vT and vZ. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On January 13 2012 09:57 tdt wrote: The problem with partial quotes is things can be taken out of context or ignored. At the tippy top like I said. The foriegn TLPD and ladders are not the tippy top but Korean and GSLs (one in the same really) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV I disagree with you about MC. His builds are revolutionary and featured all the time in strategy section of this web site since GSL 3 to this day. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=ogsmc&t=t&f=34&u=&gb=date&d= http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=mc&t=t&f=34&u=&gb=date&d= I didnt declare the race UP or OP I just said statistiscally, at the top, Protoss is worst and that's a fact with only 3/32 possilbe showings in 16 seasons of various S-Class GSL finals. The tippy top. I stated I don't know if protoss players are just bad or something is wrong with the game. My guess it was protoss virtually unused airforce is the problem since other units/abilities do well overall in both vT and vZ. I just lost against carriers (I go mech). I had 3/3 vikings, and 3/3 mech vs 3/1 ground and 1/1 air. Protoss air is pretty good vs mech. Stargate is used constantly against Zerg. MC uses Phoenixes. Phoenix Colossus PvT is a thing. | ||
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javert
Mexico3 Posts
Problem: cloaked units (mainly the Dark Templar) are unplayable against Terran. It only takes two keysstrokes at any time and units and revealed and promptly killed. Some people talk about poking and draining the Orbital Commands' energy away but to be realistic, among the two or three OCs that the Terran players have, there are scans to spare. Solution. Making the scan sweep unable to detect cloaked units. Effects: Terran players have to play fair and put turrets on their bases and bring ravens to the party. Both dark templar and burrowing units gain value in games against Terran. The scans can still be used to scout. Side effects: none, IMO. By the time a Banshee or Dark Templar rush hit the Terran base, they shoud have built turrets. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:09 javert wrote: I don't know if it has been mentioned before but here's my balance proposal Problem: cloaked units (mainly the Dark Templar) are unplayable against Terran. It only takes two keysstrokes at any time and units and revealed and promptly killed. Some people talk about poking and draining the Orbital Commands' energy away but to be realistic, among the two or three OCs that the Terran players have, there are scans to spare. Solution. Making the scan sweep unable to detect cloaked units. Effects: Terran players have to play fair and put turrets on their bases and bring ravens to the party. Both dark templar and burrowing units gain value in games against Terran. The scans can still be used to scout. Side effects: none, IMO. By the time a Banshee or Dark Templar rush hit the Terran base, they shoud have built turrets. QXC lost in GSL to DTs. Whitera uses special tactics all the time. Where is this coming from? | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:09 javert wrote: I don't know if it has been mentioned before but here's my balance proposal Problem: cloaked units (mainly the Dark Templar) are unplayable against Terran. It only takes two keysstrokes at any time and units and revealed and promptly killed. Some people talk about poking and draining the Orbital Commands' energy away but to be realistic, among the two or three OCs that the Terran players have, there are scans to spare. Solution. Making the scan sweep unable to detect cloaked units. Effects: Terran players have to play fair and put turrets on their bases and bring ravens to the party. Both dark templar and burrowing units gain value in games against Terran. The scans can still be used to scout. Side effects: none, IMO. By the time a Banshee or Dark Templar rush hit the Terran base, they shoud have built turrets. Last night I watched bombers base get overrun with DT's. Your problem is incorrect. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On January 13 2012 05:34 TheKefka wrote: If you mean the level of mechanical dificulity it takes to exectue,than I see your point,but I hope you don't mean something else. uh, what? terran macro consists of creating and keeping eyes out on buildings, dropping mules, general building management (addons, swapping, positioning), and even creating the army themselves (3 keybinds for 3 different types of production facilities). mule is a small part of the overall mechanics. zerg macro consists of... larva injects, with a few buildings here and there. That's pretty much about it, though I suppose you can count creep spread depending on the context you can't compare mule and inject directly. They don't serve equal role and have different priorities to them | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:09 javert wrote: I don't know if it has been mentioned before but here's my balance proposal Problem: cloaked units (mainly the Dark Templar) are unplayable against Terran. It only takes two keysstrokes at any time and units and revealed and promptly killed. Some people talk about poking and draining the Orbital Commands' energy away but to be realistic, among the two or three OCs that the Terran players have, there are scans to spare. Solution. Making the scan sweep unable to detect cloaked units. Effects: Terran players have to play fair and put turrets on their bases and bring ravens to the party. Both dark templar and burrowing units gain value in games against Terran. The scans can still be used to scout. Side effects: none, IMO. By the time a Banshee or Dark Templar rush hit the Terran base, they shoud have built turrets. Terran has the easiest emergency defense, but the hardest mobile defense. Obs and Overseer are much more accessible than Raven. And it's not hard as a DT-going protoss to split up your DTs so that he has to use one scan per DT. In short, cloak units are not unplayable against Terran. Cloak banshee rushes are just as common in TvT as in TvZ or TvP, maybe more so. And DT rush is a coin-flip, but then, it always was, against any race. As for side effects, it makes moving out in TvZ virtually impossible against baneling bombs until a Raven is out. And virtually impossible in TvP until a raven is out if DTs are in play. In other words, poor idea, poorly executed, to solve a problem that doesn't exist. | ||
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mahi29
United States235 Posts
His complaints: P can warp in mass units from gateways. Like all a lot of P units come from one production facility. Protoss doesn't really need to scout as much in the matchup. The T's army composition is always MMM w/ VIkings and Ghosts One or two storms can effectively win you a battle i.e if ghosts manage to emp 6/8 HTs, T can still lose because of storms. Drops are extremely ineffective against a decent protoss because they can warp in to deal w/ the drop Any ideas on how I can convince him that TvP is more or less balanced? | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
It's been a long while since Blizzard gave a situation report of any kind of patch recommendation. I'm a bit frustrated every time I read a Blizzard Interview these days. It all winds down to "Yea, we've been getting a lot of feedback on this from the community, and the pros are complaining about that too...but we just don't see a problem. Everything looks ok with the 50% win rate per race LOL" I feel that there's a disconnect between the developer and the community. Honestly I stick around here because you guys are so wonderful. Starcraft has the best fans in the world and the most awesome players in the world. I love esports. However, I can't help but feel that this game is still not what it should be and I'm frustrated because the developers seem not to give a damn. Maybe they do, but they do not present themselves in a favorable light most of the time. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On January 24 2012 05:06 mahi29 wrote: Any ideas on how I can convince him that TvP is more or less balanced? You really can't convince someone who's made up their mind. You can however show him the GSL Where there's literally twice as many terrans as the other two races in the top 16 of this season. It's been Terran dominate like crazy since the dawn of time. It's hard to take the "Terran is weak" complaint seriously. | ||
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On January 25 2012 22:50 neoghaleon55 wrote: You really can't convince someone who's made up their mind. You can however show him the GSL Where there's literally twice as many terrans as the other two races in the top 16 of this season. It's been Terran dominate like crazy since the dawn of time. It's hard to take the "Terran is weak" complaint seriously. Though most Terrans achilles cord are Protoss. All SlayerS Terrans, all oGs Terrans, MVP etc. The question is: is it cause they lack practice or cause they dont train enough for this MU? Or is it because the Matchup is unforgiving etc. Its balanced after all imo  | ||
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