Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 179

On February 01 2012 08:15 Jermstuddog wrote:
ZvP has been one-sided due to a lot more reasons than mutaling.

If mutaling was such an issue, ZvP SHOULD have been one-sided since release due to the fact that mutas and lings have undergone exactly 0 modifications in the released game.

The truth of the matter is that mutas in ZvP have been somewhat viable at all points since release, but are never so convincingly strong that it should be concerning. Unless you play Protoss... then they're imba.

As I stated above, the thing that sends Protoss players to the forum to complain about mutas actually has nothing to do with the strength of the unit and everything to do with its weaknesses.

Mutas are fast and flimsey, they suck if they're getting hit at all, they have a bad tendancy to clump up if any micro is applied at all (making them very vulnerable to splash damage), and to top it all off, Protoss has 4 different units (two of which are equally so or more mobile than the mutalisk) that hands down slaughter mutas per cost. Oh yeah, all of these units have more range than mutas, and most have more health.

That sounds like a pretty well balanced unit to me...

Back to the point.

Mutas don't win games through brute force. They win games through superior speed, maneuvering and containment which doesn't lead to a win, it leads to a 5 base vs 3 base situation. Then, considering you've dumped 100% of your gas on mutas up to that point, you are stuck with lots of mutas... and maybe speedlings... and no way to kill your opponent... so you start going for the inefficient trades. 6 mutas for 5 probes. Kill 3 cannons and 8 probes, eat 1000 damage in storms. Stuff like that...

The game was over 20 minutes ago... Hell, you have 2x the income of your opponent, he SHOULD have typed out gg 10 minutes ago... but all he sees is his sick blinks and awesome storms... and the imba contain you're putting down on him. Forget the fact that its 200 supply with 3k+ of each resource vs 160 and struggling... its the mutas that are imba!

I have never seen anything convincing that shows mutas are anywhere near imba or that Protoss lacks the resources to deal with them properly.

If mutas need a nerf, so do blink stalkers, colossi, immortals, and HT... all those units kill me quite often in much more convincing ways.

On February 01 2012 11:11 Kharnage wrote:


The only thing going for the protoss player is the fact that mutas can't kill the protoss army in a toe to toe fight.

On February 01 2012 11:15 SonOfBoxer wrote:


I used to think that, too, but I've just played a PvZ where the Zerg commited heavily to mutas. I was able to destroy his 3rd 3 times, but he went and got it up again, and then got a 4th, which I also managed to destroy. I was keeping his muta flock low, but he began double upgrades and I was stranded in 2 bases, so I couldn't keep up with his production and upgrades. +2+2 mutas simply shredded my +2+0 blink stalkers. There was simply nothing I could do. I hope zergs don't begin doing this kinda of thing, or things will get nasty.

On February 01 2012 11:15 SonOfBoxer wrote:


I used to think that, too, but I've just played a PvZ where the Zerg commited heavily to mutas. I was able to destroy his 3rd 3 times, but he went and got it up again, and then got a 4th, which I also managed to destroy. I was keeping his muta flock low, but he began double upgrades and I was stranded in 2 bases, so I couldn't keep up with his production and upgrades. +2+2 mutas simply shredded my +2+0 blink stalkers. There was simply nothing I could do. I hope zergs don't begin doing this kinda of thing, or things will get nasty.

On February 01 2012 11:30 Azzur wrote:
Complaint: Mutas are too powerful in ZvP because of they are a fast, mobile (flying) and multi-purpose (hits air + ground) unit. Units that should counter them (e.g. phoenix + stalker) are hardly useful counters against them. The problem increases when the muta cloud grows.

Solution: Nerf their speed or weaken their multi-purpose capability (e.g. make their air or ground attack weaker).

Side-effects: The TvZ matchup - although I feel that it's not so bad because terrans also have similar troubles. Even though terrans have learnt to deal with them by keeping a squad a marines in-base to stim and chase them away, many pros do encounter trouble against them and I think it's pretty ridiculous that a cloud of mutas can fly into a base (for both terran and protoss) and kill everything and then just fly out unchallenged.

On February 01 2012 11:35 SonOfBoxer wrote:


I really don't think nerfing Mutas would be the solution here, really. If you tweak the Mutas, they will probably become useless. The problem is not that Mutas are overpowered, the problem is that the Stalker is underpowered. It is probably the worst unit in the game, all things considered: it is slow, has a ridiculous DPS and is way too expensive. IF the Stalker OR the Phoenix got a buff, things would be much better. It's not like Blink Stalkers can do much in PvT that it would ruin the matchup, since the main unit in a PvT matchup is the Chargelot. After all, the Stalker could use a little buff in its DPS, so concussive shells, stimpack, speedlings, and roach speed wouldn't render it useless.

I really think the "Muta Question" should be addressed with a buff to the Stalker or to the Phoenix. Nobody in their right minds would go air against Terran anyway.

On February 01 2012 09:03 Skamtet wrote:
Upgraded marines deal with spines extremely well.

On February 01 2012 11:51 Dalavita wrote:


A single spine yes, not several of them.

On February 01 2012 11:35 SonOfBoxer wrote:


I really don't think nerfing Mutas would be the solution here, really. If you tweak the Mutas, they will probably become useless. The problem is not that Mutas are overpowered, the problem is that the Stalker is underpowered. It is probably the worst unit in the game, all things considered: it is slow, has a ridiculous DPS and is way too expensive. IF the Stalker OR the Phoenix got a buff, things would be much better. It's not like Blink Stalkers can do much in PvT that it would ruin the matchup, since the main unit in a PvT matchup is the Chargelot. After all, the Stalker could use a little buff in its DPS, so concussive shells, stimpack, speedlings, and roach speed wouldn't render it useless.

I really think the "Muta Question" should be addressed with a buff to the Stalker or to the Phoenix. Nobody in their right minds would go air against Terran anyway.

On February 01 2012 11:11 Kharnage wrote:
Mutas are the cause of a 3 base vs 3 base game turning into a 6 base vs 3 base game.

On February 01 2012 14:12 Jermstuddog wrote:


There are MANY ways in which Protoss can deny/delay further expansions from the Zerg player once Mutas hit the field.

Further, if Z does not take a significant economic lead immediately after the mutas pop, he risks simply dying to the next big Protoss push because Mutas really are THAT bad at straight up fights.

I am not trying to argue that Protoss has meaningful ways of dealing with 40+ mutalisks. That is quite a tall order when the race is so limited in their splash damage vs air (pretty much just archons and storm). But let me go ahead and list a few of the things that people tend to overlook.

1) Stop rushing +3 weapons vs mutas
I see this time and time again. Protoss just go straight for weapon upgrades and think they're doing the right thing. You SHOULD be getting at least +1 armor before you look at +2 weapons and probably at least +1 shield before +3 weapons.

Look at the Mutalisks attack.

Assuming +1 weapons, which is usually pretty standard, it hits a non-upgraded stalker for 10, 3.33, and 1.11 vs the shields and 9, 2.33, and 0.11 vs their hull. With +1 armor, that reduces the hull damage down to 8, 1.33, and (I think it's 0.01, correct me if i'm wrong). This is a significant amount of damage that you are reducing by simply getting an armor upgrade. +2 armor is close to the same effectiveness by further reducing the damage down to 7, 0.33, and 0.01. After getting +2 armor, the bounce is effectively worthless for the rest of the game and there is nothing Zerg can do to recover that lost damage.

Armor upgrades are doubly effective vs Mutalisks and offer a lot of value vs Zerglings, which are also pretty standard. This actually allows a Protoss player to split his army because it gets that much harder to kill.

2) An immediate counter-attack is almost ALWAYS going to work out in your favor. perhaps the most dangerous time for the muta-going Zerg player is right around the time the spire pops. Obviously attacking before the spire is optimal, but this is often not possible. Attacking immediately AFTER the spire however, also has many benefits.

Zerg needs to focus on drone production in order to catch up. Teching to Mutas is quite costly and doing so quickly in the game will actually leave Zerg behind in economy. The mutas MUST deal damage AND prevent a counter-attack in order to allow for Zerg to gain that massive economy which he can then leverage into a game ender. Even if you are trading slightly inefficiently at this point in time, you are AHEAD, so that is OK.

3) Blinking around a Spine wall is pretty damn deadly.

Protoss has many options to scout so that they can then blink past a spine wall.

Observers, Phoenix/Void Rays, and Hallucination are all simple early ways to provide uphill vision.

Blinking into Zergs main, killing off ANYTHING, and getting out before you lose your entire army deals a significant blow to the ticking time-bomb that is muta play.

4) Extreme turtling actually works.

I've seen this argument in here several times. "I have to wait until I'm maxed and then just allin from there". Why allin? Why not use your maxed army, that Zerg cannot fight against, to take a 4th? In my experience, it works quite well. Zerg is already floating econ. Why would you sacrifice your maxed army in order to kill his maxed army when he can literally replace his muta flock 30 at a time? Take a slow 4th, even if it's at the cost of your main. Most of your tech should be located in your natural anyway. Once the main is mined out, let him have it, you're goal should be to push for a Mothership/Archon/Void Ray composition. If he doesn't already have tech to deal with that, he may have already lost the game.

5) Carriers are actually quite good vs Mutalisks.

Carriers have insane DPS and a base armor of 3. That is everything you want to deal with Mutalisks. While I do not advocate rushing for them, if you are going for the long game and getting that Mothership, there is no reason you can't start adding Carriers into your army as well.

6) Phoenix work best when you keep them in competitive numbers with the Zerg player and use them for zoning.

Phoenix DOMINATE mutalisks as long as the gas is roughly the same for each army. Even if it's something like 20 phoenix vs 30 mutas, the phoenix will take a LARGE chunk out of the muta army before they go down. Still... there is no reason to just let them die. Phoenix are faster, have longer range, more health, shields regenerate faster, and they deal higher DPS than mutas do. Everybody already knows this. The important part is to use that speed and range to your advantage. Phoenix should never engage mutas head-on, rather, they should be used as a force that mutas cannot fight. Use a phoenix cloud to harass the Zerg base, take a 3rd, or zone out certain areas of your base. Sure, the Zerg player might be able to win the fight, but you should always be able to make it not worth fighting in the first place if you're doing things right. This pretty much shits all over the whole idea of going muta in the first place.

7) Going back to that +armor argument. You know how fucking hard it is to kill 3 armor Zealots with +0 or +1 lings?

If you've been emphasizing armor upgrades but you're proceeding into the later stages of the game, a large warp-in (8+) of +3 armor Zealots can be a death sentence for any distant expansion. And who cares if they die... they only cost minerals anyway.
I guarantee a large detachment of Zealots WILL kill their cost of any base with less than 6 Spine crawlers (typically the newer bases)

8) Last one... Freaking use everything you have available. I see too many people trying to write off phoenixs and archons when it comes to fighting mutas. Those units are FREAKING GOOD, just don't try sending them in willy-nilly. Both of those units are great for zoning. Archons work best to protect a cannon line. If Mutas cannot swarm up, they suck at killing cannons, If they have to magic-box an archon, they increase their exposure area, allow more cannons/stalkers to fire. This is just like using a Thor to top off a marine army. Thors suck vs Mutalisks when alone, but adding just 1 or 2 to an already existing marine army makes them basically untouchable. 1 or 2 archons added to mineral line surrounded by cannons does the same.



All of these things have worked against me quite effectively. If you are not employing all of them regularly, you haven't been trying nearly hard enough to even think about mutas being imba.

Just because a unit is good, does not mean a nerf is justified. Especially when that unit has as many drawbacks as the mutalisk does. Any single nerf to the unit would make it completely unusable in pretty much all 3 match-ups. That is not a realistic option, especially when the Protoss race has so many viable counters available.

On February 01 2012 11:30 Azzur wrote:
Complaint: Mutas are too powerful in ZvP because of they are a fast, mobile (flying) and multi-purpose (hits air + ground) unit. Units that should counter them (e.g. phoenix + stalker) are hardly useful counters against them. The problem increases when the muta cloud grows.

Solution: Nerf their speed or weaken their multi-purpose capability (e.g. make their air or ground attack weaker).

Side-effects: The TvZ matchup - although I feel that it's not so bad because terrans also have similar troubles. Even though terrans have learnt to deal with them by keeping a squad a marines in-base to stim and chase them away, many pros do encounter trouble against them and I think it's pretty ridiculous that a cloud of mutas can fly into a base (for both terran and protoss) and kill everything and then just fly out unchallenged.

On February 01 2012 14:16 Shiori wrote:
Putting 2 Archons in each mineral line (assuming HTs) is 6 gas per mineral line just to "zone" mutas. Are you crazy?

On February 01 2012 12:01 ZenithM wrote:


Bleh, upgraded marines destroy everything that does not deal AoE damage imo.

On January 30 2012 10:28 DYEAlabaster wrote:


vileIllusion got 24th at Providence, taking out Sheth, KawaiiRice, Spanishiwa. He also took out 2 FXO members and should have won vs asd as well. He's not the greatest player in the world, but he sure isn't bad either. He also beat Ret, DeMuslim, and KawaiiRice (again) to qualify for IEM Sao Paulo.

So he's not bad, but he's better than most.