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On February 01 2012 14:19 Techno wrote:
Marines good race. Seriously tho, 2 spines probably gonna take out 3-4 2/2 marines outta 8. Now you only got 4 marines fighting that queen. Your zerglings can get there in time (assuming you didnt leave 6ish+infestor at that base like you should)
marines can go the other side of hatchery and kill it no problem (ignoring spines). So if you're planning to defend your hatch with 2 spines per 8 marines you need atleast 6 spines around hatchery.
Marines are not strong just because of dps, its their mobily and medivac.
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So the conclusion of the discussion so far is kinda like: If you would want to Nerf Mutas in ZvP but keep them in the other matchups you would have to buff something with Protoss, namely the Stalker. But then buffing stalker would make them perhaps too strong in some other areas. So why dont you just give Stalkers extra damage vs Mutas? If their damage is x make their attack vs mutas "x+4". Or if blizzard wanna keep this thing with "light" and "biological" units make Mutalisks "Flying assholes" and give Stalkers extra damage vs them. Hell make Banshees "Flying assholes" too. I think that is kind of another way of balancing this game and it could be just what this kind of situation needs. Just putting it out there.
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Complaint:
Mutalisks in ZvP are currently perhaps a little bit to strong in terms of harassment and either force unwinnable base trades or a very disadvantageous macro situation for Protoss.
Solution:
Add an upgrade to the Fleet Beacon that gives cannons the ability to do splash damage to air. The need for such an upgrade coincides nicely to the general timing of a Mothership to counter a Broodlord tech switch after the Protoss has established three bases using the combination of storm, cannons and templar. This allows the Protoss to spread himself out a bit more and take more bases and be much more effective in a forced base trade. By no means do I believe it would be to strong due its extensive position within the tech tree allowing Zerg to still have a really nice timing window to harass effectively with their Mutalisks.
Effects in other Matches:
Fleet Beacon is generally a non existent tech path in PvT and PvP so it should have very minor implications.
Edit: Perhaps make it so you can upgrade individual cannons to gain this affect with the requirement of the Fleet Beacon.
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Like I said, just give phoenixes an energy-based air AoE cannon. Simple fix.
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On February 01 2012 18:56 GreatestThreat wrote:
Like I said, just give phoenixes an energy-based air AoE cannon. Simple fix.
That would pretty much make Mutalisks non existent in PvZ which isn't a really good way to balance the game, not to mention it would most probably be to good against Broodlords and Corruptors.
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On February 01 2012 18:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 18:56 GreatestThreat wrote:
Like I said, just give phoenixes an energy-based air AoE cannon. Simple fix. That would pretty much make Mutalisks non existent in PvZ which isn't a really good way to balance the game, not to mention it would most probably be to good against Broodlords and Corruptors.
It's strange though. Like the thor was supposed to counter the muta, but people figured away to work around that (magic box obv.) the phoenix are just not good enough vs mutalisk.
At the moment a protoss has the following to actually fight mutas:
Sentries (good for guardian shield, nothing else)
Stalkers (with blink and upgrades they are somewhat decent)
Templars - Storm is great, but mutas will rarely take more than 1 - max 2 ticks (20-40dmg)
Archons - Actually really great for straight up fights but too short range and too slow to get off the much needed attacks
Cannons - Can be used to buy time for your blinkstalkers to get there. You cannot count on cannons to defend against mutas.
While terran have marines, thor, ghost and turrets which are all alot better. Still the metagame is ZvT mutaling and ZvP roaches OR mutaling. I can't understand why zerg players don't go mutalisk more vs protoss? It will leave a timing where the Z is vulnerable to an all in, but usually this can be fixed by mineral dumping into spines (depending on map obv.)
However - while phoenix aoe might be over the top I do agree, protoss doesn't have too good anti-air. I hope HotS will fix it at least.
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On February 01 2012 18:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 18:56 GreatestThreat wrote:
Like I said, just give phoenixes an energy-based air AoE cannon. Simple fix. That would pretty much make Mutalisks non existent in PvZ which isn't a really good way to balance the game, not to mention it would most probably be to good against Broodlords and Corruptors.
Depends on the stats. The splash doesn't have to be ridiculously huge (or even very big at all, just sort of, there, like archons) and the damage can be tuned to have bonus vs light.
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On February 01 2012 18:56 GreatestThreat wrote:
Like I said, just give phoenixes an energy-based air AoE cannon. Simple fix.
Didn't they have that in the alpha/beta builds?
I don't really see Blizzard fixing the PvZ muta problem until HOTS. Just like MMM is starting to feel lackluster against protoss, protoss anti-air is starting to feel lackluster against mutas... But both problems have to wait until HOTS since there is no easy fix for either problem.
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On February 01 2012 19:25 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 18:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On February 01 2012 18:56 GreatestThreat wrote:
Like I said, just give phoenixes an energy-based air AoE cannon. Simple fix. That would pretty much make Mutalisks non existent in PvZ which isn't a really good way to balance the game, not to mention it would most probably be to good against Broodlords and Corruptors. It's strange though. Like the thor was supposed to counter the muta, but people figured away to work around that (magic box obv.) the phoenix are just not good enough vs mutalisk. At the moment a protoss has the following to actually fight mutas: Sentries (good for guardian shield, nothing else) Stalkers (with blink and upgrades they are somewhat decent) Templars - Storm is great, but mutas will rarely take more than 1 - max 2 ticks (20-40dmg) Archons - Actually really great for straight up fights but too short range and too slow to get off the much needed attacks Cannons - Can be used to buy time for your blinkstalkers to get there. You cannot count on cannons to defend against mutas. While terran have marines, thor, ghost and turrets which are all alot better. Still the metagame is ZvT mutaling and ZvP roaches OR mutaling. I can't understand why zerg players don't go mutalisk more vs protoss? It will leave a timing where the Z is vulnerable to an all in, but usually this can be fixed by mineral dumping into spines (depending on map obv.) However - while phoenix aoe might be over the top I do agree, protoss doesn't have too good anti-air. I hope HotS will fix it at least.
In comparable numbers with proper micro, phoenix are godly against Mutas.
The real problem is that they aren't that good against everything else, such that if you invest heavily in them, you'll get rolled as the zerg switches out.
I think the answer is a fair number of cannons at each base and a single HT allowed to gather energy.
Or, perhaps, giving stalkers a different GtA attack that gives +light damage isntead of armored.
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The problem isn't mutas. The problem is late game toss, it is too ridicolous and the only way of stopping a protoss from getting to lategame is by going mutas as all ground attacks to deny the third can be denied due to longer ranged units and forcefields. If mutas don't do damage zerg is fucked anyways. If protoss gets a buff to deal with mutas then ZvP will become an all-in fest because going broodlords on some maps isn't reliable as the army composition is too immobile to defend all the bases required to support the army.
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My solution to the muta problem in ZvP:
Add an upgrade to the phoenix that gives their standard attack a small 50% splash radius. This would make phoenixes much more potent against huge muta balls. Right now phoenixes are quite good against mutas in small numbers, but bad once the muta ball gets too big. I think this upgrade wouls solve this problem.
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And thus is the problem with discussing balance on these forums.
My multiple extensive posts explaining why mutas are perfectly fine and cannot be nerfed, and why Protoss already has all the tools they need to deal with them is no longer on the latest page so we revert back to "here's how to fix mutas!" Instead of thinkingg about whether there is actually anything wrong in the first place.
Its kinda sad really and I now see why the pros don't bother... there is no way do have a reasonable debate if it extends beyond one page.
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On February 01 2012 23:16 Jermstuddog wrote:
And thus is the problem with discussing balance on these forums.
My multiple extensive posts explaining why mutas are perfectly fine and cannot be nerfed, and why Protoss already has all the tools they need to deal with them is no longer on the latest page so we revert back to "here's how to fix mutas!" Instead of thinkingg about whether there is actually anything wrong in the first place.
Its kinda sad really and I now see why the pros don't bother... there is no way do have a reasonable debate if it extends beyond one page.
Arn't you the guy who was saying mutas need a buff because they can't win game quick enough? Yeah the irony here is quite funny.
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I never said they need a buff.
I said they need a buff more than they need a nerf.
That's the other issue.
People do nothing but try and twist your post so that you sound stupid instead of reading what you're actually saying.
Its cool though... I'll just stop wasting my time.
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On February 01 2012 23:33 Jermstuddog wrote:
I never said they need a buff.
I said they need a buff more than they need a nerf.
That's the other issue.
People do nothing but try and twist your post so that you sound stupid instead of reading what you're actually saying.
Its cool though... I'll just stop wasting my time.
All I see is whining from both sides, your posts are very whiny too.
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On February 02 2012 00:05 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 23:33 Jermstuddog wrote:
I never said they need a buff.
I said they need a buff more than they need a nerf.
That's the other issue.
People do nothing but try and twist your post so that you sound stupid instead of reading what you're actually saying.
Its cool though... I'll just stop wasting my time. All I see is whining from both sides, your posts are very whiny too.
Are you seriously whining about him whining about all the whiners in this thread?
Oh crap I just added another layer didn't I?
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On February 02 2012 00:18 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2012 00:05 7mk wrote:On February 01 2012 23:33 Jermstuddog wrote:
I never said they need a buff.
I said they need a buff more than they need a nerf.
That's the other issue.
People do nothing but try and twist your post so that you sound stupid instead of reading what you're actually saying.
Its cool though... I'll just stop wasting my time. All I see is whining from both sides, your posts are very whiny too. Are you seriously whining about him whining about all the whiners in this thread? Oh crap I just added another layer didn't I?
lol the irony
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On February 01 2012 14:19 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 11:30 Azzur wrote:
Complaint: Mutas are too powerful in ZvP because of they are a fast, mobile (flying) and multi-purpose (hits air + ground) unit. Units that should counter them (e.g. phoenix + stalker) are hardly useful counters against them. The problem increases when the muta cloud grows.
Solution: Nerf their speed or weaken their multi-purpose capability (e.g. make their air or ground attack weaker).
Side-effects: The TvZ matchup - although I feel that it's not so bad because terrans also have similar troubles. Even though terrans have learnt to deal with them by keeping a squad a marines in-base to stim and chase them away, many pros do encounter trouble against them and I think it's pretty ridiculous that a cloud of mutas can fly into a base (for both terran and protoss) and kill everything and then just fly out unchallenged. Nice man, way to stick to the format. Unfortunetly I think the side effect is too big. I propose a (imo better) solution: buff pheonixes. Side effect: maybe pheonix/colossus is really damn good in pvt. or even buff stalkers, or just buff stalker +upgrade damage. Stalker buff would make 4gate really damn strong vs Terran again, and would make blink allins really damn strong vs zerg again. The buff could be beneficial for balance vs Terran, since it could force T's to play less greedy (general protoss buff), but would probably break PvZ blink timings. Even so, I think Protoss should be able to defeat mass muta with Archon/Storm. I'm sure its damn hard (harder than with thor/marine). I think theres some timings to prevent the muta flock that havent been completely developed. I have heard, from the EG stream, that DTs are a good way to deal with muta, since they can shutdown expansions and get you archons. Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 14:16 Shiori wrote:
Putting 2 Archons in each mineral line (assuming HTs) is 6 gas per mineral line just to "zone" mutas. Are you crazy? 1 archon + 2 HTs in a warp prism. + stalker warp in + cannons. I like to keep a medivac with my thor for fast base to base movement and to eventually bring it to the front lines (risky, but neccessary if 2 base timing). Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 12:01 ZenithM wrote:On February 01 2012 11:51 Dalavita wrote:On February 01 2012 09:03 Skamtet wrote:On January 31 2012 01:00 Dalavita wrote:
If people are talking very lategame, then what's the issue with making 6 spines per base to defend against drops? It'll make anything outside of a 3 medivac drop harmless. Upgraded marines deal with spines extremely well. A single spine yes, not several of them. Bleh, upgraded marines destroy everything that does not deal AoE damage imo. Marines good race. Seriously tho, 2 spines probably gonna take out 3-4 2/2 marines outta 8. Now you only got 4 marines fighting that queen. Your zerglings can get there in time (assuming you didnt leave 6ish+infestor at that base like you should)
Are you being serious?
2 HTs (300 gas) 1 Archon (300 gas) a Warp Prism (robo + 200 minerals + wasting time not making observers) and then a full warp in of Stalkers?
At each mineral line?
Why don't I just open forge and make Nexi and cannons all day?
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On February 02 2012 01:44 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 14:19 Techno wrote:On February 01 2012 11:30 Azzur wrote:
Complaint: Mutas are too powerful in ZvP because of they are a fast, mobile (flying) and multi-purpose (hits air + ground) unit. Units that should counter them (e.g. phoenix + stalker) are hardly useful counters against them. The problem increases when the muta cloud grows.
Solution: Nerf their speed or weaken their multi-purpose capability (e.g. make their air or ground attack weaker).
Side-effects: The TvZ matchup - although I feel that it's not so bad because terrans also have similar troubles. Even though terrans have learnt to deal with them by keeping a squad a marines in-base to stim and chase them away, many pros do encounter trouble against them and I think it's pretty ridiculous that a cloud of mutas can fly into a base (for both terran and protoss) and kill everything and then just fly out unchallenged. Nice man, way to stick to the format. Unfortunetly I think the side effect is too big. I propose a (imo better) solution: buff pheonixes. Side effect: maybe pheonix/colossus is really damn good in pvt. or even buff stalkers, or just buff stalker +upgrade damage. Stalker buff would make 4gate really damn strong vs Terran again, and would make blink allins really damn strong vs zerg again. The buff could be beneficial for balance vs Terran, since it could force T's to play less greedy (general protoss buff), but would probably break PvZ blink timings. Even so, I think Protoss should be able to defeat mass muta with Archon/Storm. I'm sure its damn hard (harder than with thor/marine). I think theres some timings to prevent the muta flock that havent been completely developed. I have heard, from the EG stream, that DTs are a good way to deal with muta, since they can shutdown expansions and get you archons. On February 01 2012 14:16 Shiori wrote:
Putting 2 Archons in each mineral line (assuming HTs) is 6 gas per mineral line just to "zone" mutas. Are you crazy? 1 archon + 2 HTs in a warp prism. + stalker warp in + cannons. I like to keep a medivac with my thor for fast base to base movement and to eventually bring it to the front lines (risky, but neccessary if 2 base timing). On February 01 2012 12:01 ZenithM wrote:On February 01 2012 11:51 Dalavita wrote:On February 01 2012 09:03 Skamtet wrote:On January 31 2012 01:00 Dalavita wrote:
If people are talking very lategame, then what's the issue with making 6 spines per base to defend against drops? It'll make anything outside of a 3 medivac drop harmless. Upgraded marines deal with spines extremely well. A single spine yes, not several of them. Bleh, upgraded marines destroy everything that does not deal AoE damage imo. Marines good race. Seriously tho, 2 spines probably gonna take out 3-4 2/2 marines outta 8. Now you only got 4 marines fighting that queen. Your zerglings can get there in time (assuming you didnt leave 6ish+infestor at that base like you should) Are you being serious? 2 HTs (300 gas) 1 Archon (300 gas) a Warp Prism (robo + 200 minerals + wasting time not making observers) and then a full warp in of Stalkers? At each mineral line? Why don't I just open forge and make Nexi and cannons all day?
I must agree with you here, ofc mutas are completly beatable due to them being not so cost effecient vs AOE air (obviously). However like you said all the investment spent on fending off muta can allow the zerg to tech to brood infestor while simutanously taking 5/6 bases. In the future zerg will just see 5/6 cannons per base and tech and expo like crazy while P in on 2/3 base, while the P player is completely helpless.
I think the only way a Toss player can actually win is if the zerg player stubborn sticks to muta the whole game. This is why the Muta's themselves are no OP, but the game control it gives the the zerg player as a result becuase the Toss cannot leave his base.
In TvZ the terran can leave 1 medivac 8 marines and any muta that engages that take heavy heavy heavy cost ineffecient losses, the only way to achieve this in PvZ is to leave all ur blink stalkers behind, meaning u have almost 0 AA in ur army.
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Complaint
Protoss sucks at the information war, especially against terran. It is incredibly easy for terran to both completely scout protoss, while completely deny scouting of their own base for the first 7-8 minutes of the game. Protoss have a similar problem against zerg, but it feels more balanced, as both sides have a reasonble opportunity to both scout and deny scouting.
Solution
There are two actually, for the scouting thing:
1. Let observers come out of the nexus, requiring either stargate, robo, or twilight. This idea has been floating around for a while, but it is still a good one and solves another issue of protoss being REQUIRED to go robo tech at some early stage in the game simply to have detection.
2. Reduce hallucination cost to 50/50, and reduce research time some. Hallucination is basically only used for scouting, and in its current form, doesn't come out fast enough. I don't think buffing it will change the metagame much in any other way, as the most "abusive" thing you could do with it is hallu earlier and maybe blink up somewhere. With the blink nerf though, I doubt the timing would change much.
Side effects
I don't think either of these changes would have very negative side affects for the game, and would result in less "build order losses" for protoss. Neither of these changes have very much aggressive/abusive potential, they just serve to get protoss closer to even footing in the information war, which I believe should be equal for all the races.
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EPT
