EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 153
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
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ilovelings
Argentina776 Posts
Several gateway units>colossi. When I'm playing protoss (I like playing random) I only build 1 Robo because 1 robo is all that u need when going mass gateway. In lategame situations I might add another one (or air if I see fit) but normaly the game ends when the terran blob dies to an endless stream of double forged stalkers/chargelots/Storms & Archons. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:29 ilovelings wrote: I do understand that well placed EMPS ruin any protoss's day. At the same time you can just feedback/storm ghosts. I belive the problem is the sub-par effectiveness of colossi. I remember the TSL game where Adelscott went mass gateway vs the korean terran and won. I think that is the key to P victories. For the cost of a collossi you can have many more gateway units. With proper micro/tactics, EMP is very easy to overcome with mass gateway style. On the other hand, colossi are EMP magnets that get brutally ravaged by vikings. Several gateway units>colossi. You don't just feedback ghosts.. You have to isolate your templars and use them one at a time; and even if you do that, snipe out ranges feed back. EMP is instant and has the same range as storm, meaning you shouldn't be able to get off the storm, and even if you did, congratulations you just stormed a ghost... You need vision of the T army in the form of multiple observers-for vision as well as for detection and these observers go down in 2-3 shots from a regular ghost shot and scanning is the Terran's way of scouting--it can't be prevented, it can't be avoided. HT's in no way shape or form counter ghosts if both players are playing correctly. If both players play correctly, HT's simply help you manage the ghosts by tossing up warm bodies for the ghosts to use their energy on; actually dealing with ghosts is done by and by with blink stalker harass and army positioning; it's not just having one unit that does a ridiculous amount of damage to every unit regardless of how you use it. | ||
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
Maybe make it so ghosts need to decloak in order to emp or snipe? | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
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ilovelings
Argentina776 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:34 Alejandrisha wrote: You don't just feedback ghosts.. You have to isolate your templars and use them one at a time; and even if you do that, snipe out ranges feed back. EMP is instant and has the same range as storm, meaning you shouldn't be able to get off the storm, and even if you did, congratulations you just stormed a ghost... You need vision of the T army in the form of multiple observers-for vision as well as for detection and these observers go down in 2-3 shots from a regular ghost shot and scanning is the Terran's way of scouting--it can't be prevented, it can't be avoided. HT's in no way shape or form counter ghosts if both players are playing correctly. If both players play correctly, HT's simply help you manage the ghosts by tossing up warm bodies for the ghosts to use their energy on; actually dealing with ghosts is done by and by with blink stalker harass and army positioning; it's not just having one unit that does a ridiculous amount of damage to every unit regardless of how you use it. I'm so used to getting EMPd, Scanned & drop abused that I have adapted my playstyle to that lol. I think the best way for protoss to deal with MMM+T+G is going double forge + 20 gateways of mass +3/+3/+3 blink/chargelots/archons/sentries while operating from 3 or more bases. Get part of your army empd, engage, abuse warpgate mechanic for insta reinforcements. Congratulations you fought a 200/200 army with a 240/200 army. The Irony that my best protoss matches come from playing protoss as if I were playing zerg. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:46 Fig wrote: I think a big help could be to simply make ghosts either armored or light. Why do they get to have no armor type? If they were light units, phoenixes would be more interesting against them. If they were armored units, then stalkers blinking in would be able to actually finish some off before they cloak. It just doesn't make sense that they have this advantage. At this point that's the icing on the icing on the icing on the cake. Ghost design is just overkill. I'm sad because if it ever gets nerfed, it'll only be one thing. Protoss players can expect to be thrown a breadcrumb at most. I can foresee the "solution" being some sort of crapshoot nerf which isn't really a nerf. Say, ghosts are light units now and you're supposed to pick them up with phoenix or something. Something which totally misses the point. Everyone will be like "oh, ghosts got nerfed so it's balanced now, brah." I mean, there's even people going around saying 1-1-1 is solved because of +1 immortal range now. smh edit: in addition, the consensus is that Protoss "got buffed" in 1.4. Overall, yeah, P got a small buff. You still have to consider the massive 30 second blink time nerf. 30 seconds is absolutely gigantic. Never mind that you sacrifice detection altogether to do blink rush, leaving it wide open. Nah, it just had to be delayed by half a minute. Perish the thought that anyone have to counter Protoss properly. /end rant | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:46 Fig wrote: I think a big help could be to simply make ghosts either armored or light. Why do they get to have no armor type? If they were light units, phoenixes would be more interesting against them. If they were armored units, then stalkers blinking in would be able to actually finish some off before they cloak. It just doesn't make sense that they have this advantage. And why do they have 100 HP. It a lot of ways vs protoss, they are more difficult to kill than maruaders. If you watched Idra vs Major in recent MLG online tournment, the Ghosts were literally tanking broodlord shots with medivac support. Sniping the whole time without a care. It was amazing how must effort Idra had to put into killing them. I would like EMP to be "damage over time" and come down to the world of storm and fungle. Requiring Ghosts to decloak and reducing ther HP count would do a long way to making them reasonable. But right now, they are a super unit left over from beta that no-one built because maruaders with stim were to awesome. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:54 Plansix wrote: I would like EMP to be "damage over time" and come down to the world of storm and fungle. Requiring Ghosts to decloak and reducing ther HP count would do a long way to making them reasonable. But right now, they are a super unit left over from beta that no-one built because maruaders with stim were to awesome. BAD BAD BAD BAD. Fungal is a horrible spell (reduces micro etc), although I like Storm. But basically all this would do is give Terran a very slightly different Storm, and that's just poor game design and unoriginal. If EMP is going to stay at all, make it original and special eg a Projectile that can be dodged, something like that. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 14 2011 03:13 SeaSwift wrote: BAD BAD BAD BAD. Fungal is a horrible spell (reduces micro etc), although I like Storm. But basically all this would do is give Terran a very slightly different Storm, and that's just poor game design and unoriginal. If EMP is going to stay at all, make it original and special eg a Projectile that can be dodged, something like that. I was more thinking that it shouldn't do instant damage. Really I don't think any spell should. It encourages players to "stack" the spell, which leads to "caster-nuke" blobs. And we all hate anything that encourges peopel to blob their units. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:43 Alejandrisha wrote: Yeah but it's just an implicit cost that needs to be factored in. Take protoss units for instance; out of the box, their units don't really do anything. You need to get every unit's upgrade for them to actually hit anything without vaporizing immediately in the mid game- blink, charge, storm, range are all upgrades that are needed to transition into fighting bio with any effect with the units they affect. Compare that to bio where you need 3 upgrades which are all available at the 5 minute mark and take effect very early on. I think it's more of a game design issue than balance. Can I just ask- when was the last time you saw a Terran with stim, combat shield, and conc shell at the 5 minute mark? Or even just stim? And when did 0-0 MM w/o ghosts, vikings, or medivacs become at all viable against blink, charge, storm, or even force field? Exaggerated claim is exaggerated. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 14 2011 18:06 ChristianS wrote: And when did 0-0 MM w/o ghosts, vikings, or medivacs become at all viable against blink, charge, storm, or even force field? Exaggerated claim is exaggerated. Strawman argument. Alejandrisha said that you need Blink/Charge/Storm/Range to fight bio effectively (the basic T1 Terran units). The basic T1 Terran units only need those 3 upgrades to fight T1 Protoss units effectively. He did NOT say that T1 Terran units with only those upgrades can take on Blink/Charge/Storm/Range upgraded Protoss units. Can I just ask- when was the last time you saw a Terran with stim, combat shield, and conc shell at the 5 minute mark? Or even just stim? He said AVAILABLE AT the 5 minute mark. Not "completed by". Stop putting words in people's mouths. | ||
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ypslala
Burma545 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:50 Brotocol wrote: edit: in addition, the consensus is that Protoss "got buffed" in 1.4. Overall, yeah, P got a small buff. You still have to consider the massive 30 second blink time nerf. 30 seconds is absolutely gigantic. Never mind that you sacrifice detection altogether to do blink rush, leaving it wide open. Nah, it just had to be delayed by half a minute. Perish the thought that anyone have to counter Protoss properly. /end rant totally right. and if you are forced to go blink first, charge is also delayed. at the same time ultras -20 secs and overseer buff. but everyone is like, "great toss buff". | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On October 14 2011 18:22 SeaSwift wrote: Strawman argument. Alejandrisha said that you need Blink/Charge/Storm/Range to fight bio effectively (the basic T1 Terran units). The basic T1 Terran units only need those 3 upgrades to fight T1 Protoss units effectively. He did NOT say that T1 Terran units with only those upgrades can take on Blink/Charge/Storm/Range upgraded Protoss units. He said AVAILABLE AT the 5 minute mark. Not "completed by". Stop putting words in people's mouths. Bio without ANY upgrades is inferior to gateway, which is why terran stays in base until at least concussive. Yes, as soon as concussive is done, they are about equal and alot depends on micro and engagement. 1 SCV, 1 marine, 2 marauder with concussive vs 1 zealot and 2 stalker that you often see in the beginning can go either way. As soon as terran adds stim/shield, toss needs to use sentry abilities. The gateway units getting trashed by bio results usually from the following factors: - Bad sentry usage / good EMPs - Upgrade advantage by terran - Very large numbers (terran bio scales better in larger groups) - Terran successfully negates a toss advantage Have a Terran engage badly, get force fielded and sliced by +2 armor zealots and bio just gets trashed by gate way units. A reasonable EMP nerf would be to give it a 1-2 sec delay. You see the projectile more to the target, there it has a 1 sec animation (EMP round charging up) and then the EMP goes off. Helps the toss to dodge and snipe has to become the weapon of choice against templar. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Problem: Early barracks aggression in TvZ is too much reward for too little risk. Bunker rushes, increasingly off the back of proxy barracks, aren't cheese in SC2. To be classed as cheese - the kind of cheese people still talk about years after it's used in a major competition, the kind of cheese worth having in an RTS - a build's success must rely on your opponent overlooking or dismissing the possibility of it happening because it's a risky, all-or-nothing gambit. Will people be talking about such-and-such's infamous proxy-rax bunker rush in the GSL, years from now? Not while they continue to happen with such regularity, I think. And the reason they happen so often is that they are insufficiently risky. Anyone following the major competitions over the past weeks will recall at least one if not several instances where the remainder of the game was an embarrassing if not humiliating formality. Which is precisely what it should be when cheese succeeds. But it should also be true - or at least highly likely - when it fails, and I for one cannot think of a single example of that. If cheese is a rare delicacy, then clawing back a victory after executing a failed cheese ought to be the stuff of legend. Analysis: The problem is that a Zerg's margin of opportunity versus a bunker rush is, being charitable, slim. Typically the Zerg has gone 15-hatch. Of particular importance is the timing of creep spread and spine crawlers at the natural to fend off slightly later, more robust aggression funded by MULEs and a full complement of SCVs. It is not economic cheese: it is what Zergs do to keep pace with builds a Terran can choose to execute in complete safety. That does not mean I think Zergs should have carte blanche to 15 hatch in complete safety. Bunker rushes should be a viable cheese. In order to fend off a bunker rush, the Zerg must compromise his intended economic focus and make lings. This, too, is perfectly right and proper. However, when we look at the spectrum of possible outcomes they disproportionately favour the Terran. Towards one extreme the Zerg handles things terribly, loses a bunch of drones and lings, a queen, and his expansion. GG. Fine. But what does the other extreme look like? I don't know if it's realistic to expect a Zerg not to lose any drones, but he's certainly going to lose mining time on a good number of drones, potential drones to ling production at the precise time he's trying to catch up in workers after taking the expansion, and probably a couple of lings too. That's 'best case' for Zerg. The Terran has also suffered economically, of course: lost mining time on a couple of SCVs, plus one or more marines and a bunker. However, it is unlikely his loss could be considered more debilitating: he has prevented the Zerg from catching up to his SCV+MULE income at a critical low-economy point in the game. And so the game proceeds with no clear advantage gained on either side. At no point is the Terran in danger of losing the game outright, and realistically there is no way of imposing such a risk. I therefore propose that such early barracks aggression should represent a greater economic deviation from the norm, thus widening the margin by which a Zerg who handles the situation perfectly can come out ahead. Solution: 1. Increase Orbital build time and/or reduce Orbital starting energy AND 2. Make the Command Centre capable of constructing SCVs (possibly at a reduced rate) while upgrading to an Orbital The goal is for the economic potential of the Terran over the early game to be more or less unchanged, provided he spends resources on SCVs during the Orbital upgrade process. Cutting SCVs to produce constantly out of two barracks and build bunkers introduces an inherent economic penalty, broadening the margin of advantage the Zerg enjoys upon a successful deflection and consequently repositioning the strategy as a high-risk, high-reward cheese play. The proposed change is eminently tweakable. The upgrade time, the rate of SCV production while upgrading, and the amount of starting energy of the Orbital can all be adjusted to yield the desired final economy and economic penalty for aggression. Side Effects: After scratching my head for some time, I decided this is where you guys come in  Fire away!Edit: This does delay the earliest possible Terran scan, but I can't see that being terribly significant. | ||
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ypslala
Burma545 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:50 ilovelings wrote: I'm so used to getting EMPd, Scanned & drop abused that I have adapted my playstyle to that lol. I think the best way for protoss to deal with MMM+T+G is going double forge + 20 gateways of mass +3/+3/+3 blink/chargelots/archons/sentries while operating from 3 or more bases. Get part of your army empd, engage, abuse warpgate mechanic for insta reinforcements. Congratulations you fought a 200/200 army with a 240/200 army. The Irony that my best protoss matches come from playing protoss as if I were playing zerg. in PvT i think emp is more a problem in the earlier stages of the game, than in late game/makro games. once toss can reinforce and start to trade armies, it becomes more and more balanced. maybe some of you saw Kiwi/Jinro at Nasl this week . exactly that happended there on terminus re. Kiwi won after trading his 200 deathballs in a game, where the 1st big battle happened when both were on +5 bases. "suddenly" it became balanced. in midgame when toss loses the entire army due to some emps, its gg. and the removed khaldarin was a way to have some defense after losing the army. so, making emp not earlier available than storm and make it equal expensive would help alot. no need to have a counter ready for a unit, that can not be there yet. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On October 14 2011 03:34 Plansix wrote: I was more thinking that it shouldn't do instant damage. Really I don't think any spell should. It encourages players to "stack" the spell, which leads to "caster-nuke" blobs. And we all hate anything that encourges peopel to blob their units. How about they just make EMP only work on a unit once every 5 secs? If you can't stack Fungal or Storm with extra damage, why can you do it for EMP? | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
Then he references midgame, in which case charge, blink, and range are all viable in the midgame (note, you don't need all of those; choose one, maybe two, and you're fine). Which is why Terran's don't go straight 0-0 MM in the midgame. No matter which way you look at it, there's not an accurate statement about balance or game design in there–and that's words that came out of his own mouth. I certainly didn't put them there. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 14 2011 19:48 ChristianS wrote: Available at, huh? Well in that case, they're "available" quite a bit earlier than that. Doesn't matter when they're "available," it matters when they actually come out. And I note again, since when can 0-0 MM even take on force fields? Don't tell me you can't get out some sentries by the time of any MM push that would involve those three upgrades that are "available" at the 5 minute mark. So early game, Protoss tier 1 can hold its own, since those critical three upgrades won't be out in time (conc shell maybe, stim certainly not). Then he references midgame, in which case charge, blink, and range are all viable in the midgame (note, you don't need all of those; choose one, maybe two, and you're fine). Which is why Terran's don't go straight 0-0 MM in the midgame. No matter which way you look at it, there's not an accurate statement about balance or game design in there–and that's words that came out of his own mouth. I certainly didn't put them there. I'll assume this is aimed at me. Since you didn't quote anyone, it's a bit ambiguous. I'm not arguing his case for him, I'm just preventing people coming up with arguments against things people never actually said. You can argue all of this against him. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
Shield upgrade 1, give same armor but also reduces the emp damage by 20, shield upgrade 2 give same armor to shield as previous but reduces the emp damage to 40, and last one gives 60 damage reduction to shields which means emp only does 40 damage, even if it seems like a large damage reduction imagine now lategame ghost comp beats just about anything, even if you have colossus they could just add vikings or wipe your gateway army out then kill the colossus. Another thing, not sure if also needed but could make the emp a projectile. Regarding the PvZ infestors has already been nerfed, I just think this one we need to wait out and it shall be fine. The biggest problem I guess is the lategame also against the broodlord and infestors, however you saw how kiwikaki dealt with it accordingly versus game two against Stephano. I don't think anything need to be done here. What are your guys thoughts? These is just theorycrafting! | ||
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