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On October 15 2011 00:49 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 00:21 NeonFox wrote:On October 14 2011 23:59 SeaSwift wrote:On October 14 2011 23:49 Cain0 wrote:On October 14 2011 23:44 NeonFox wrote:There's something weird with this graph, while I understand that Protoss is getting those results in regards to the hard time they have in both PvZ and PvT, the results are actually the worse in ZvT? I don't remember seing zerg struggle THAT hard against terran. TvP is imbalanced because of EMP's TvZ is imbalanced because of rediculous terran openings ZvP seems to favour Z lately but im unsure why. Im just completely unsure how blizzard is going to deal with this... ZvP - Zerg has figured out all Protoss openings and gains an advantage going into the midgame. Then, when Infestors pop out and eventually Broodlords come out Zerg has a far better deathball. I don't agree with the far better deathball, zerg may have a better deathball because of the advantage they get in the midgame, but an optimal protoss deathball will beat an optimal zerg deathball imo. The thing is that nowadays protoss can't get to that point because they are far behind in economy. The main difference in regards to ZvT and ZvP is all based around scouting. Against an FFE build I cn sacrifice an overlord at the 7:00mn mark, coupled with another overlord watching the natural gasses, I know what the protoss will do and will prepare against it. And I feel that gives me an unfair advantage into the midgame. ZvT is the exact opposite, I have no idea what the terran is doing until overseers and sacrificing overlords doesn't work against a competent terran. A way to equilibrate ZvP would be to have some way for protoss to kill those scouting overlords faster, but I have no idea how. Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down.
That's just wrong, or the protoss doesn't have the correct unit mix to counter it.
You realize you are saying that once once the zerg has infestors and broodlords there's nothing a protoss can do to kill that army? Just watch some games and you'll see that this is not true. Infestors corrupters and broodlords cost an absurd amount of gas, i'm sure you can have colossi, void rays, high templars and some gateway units for that cost. Hell you could even throw in a mothership if you want.
The problem is that protoss have a really hard time getting to that point because they get crippled in the midgame.
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On October 14 2011 23:49 Cain0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 23:44 NeonFox wrote:There's something weird with this graph, while I understand that Protoss is getting those results in regards to the hard time they have in both PvZ and PvT, the results are actually the worse in ZvT? I don't remember seing zerg struggle THAT hard against terran. TvP is imbalanced because of EMP's TvZ is imbalanced because of rediculous terran openings ZvP seems to favour Z lately but im unsure why. Im just completely unsure how blizzard is going to deal with this...
I think it is pretty balanced at this point. Protoss are figuring out how to be agressive without going all-in off of 2 bases. Protoss aer figuring out some solid timings to deal with infestors and slow down the zerg so they do not get unlimited drones.
But it is taking a while. Zerg can be a difficult race to "scout" for a good opening for a timing attack, since your counting units and drones, not production buildings. It will even out in time.
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On October 15 2011 00:49 KimJongChill wrote:Hmm, looks like TvZ is ridiculously imbalanced, while TvP is getting better. Wonder why there isn't more outcry about TvZ. I guess because we are all tired and know that Blizzard won't really nerf terran.
I think TvZ is only imbalanced because of the terran openings. If you get into the mid-game on even grounds, I think that Zergling baneling muta into broodlords deal with them pretty well.
edit: Unless they go mech, against mech, I dont have a clue at all.
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On October 14 2011 20:35 eYeball wrote:
The current problem with PvT is ghosts, 1/1/1 can mostly be dealt with these days now. In the PvT matchup right now shield upgrades are mostly worthless, why? Because of the EMP. But what if shield upgrades decreased the emp damage, wouldn't that make shields more available in PvT also? e.g.
Shield upgrade 1, give same armor but also reduces the emp damage by 20, shield upgrade 2 give same armor to shield as previous but reduces the emp damage to 40, and last one gives 60 damage reduction to shields which means emp only does 40 damage, even if it seems like a large damage reduction imagine now lategame ghost comp beats just about anything, even if you have colossus they could just add vikings or wipe your gateway army out then kill the colossus.
Another thing, not sure if also needed but could make the emp a projectile.
Regarding the PvZ infestors has already been nerfed, I just think this one we need to wait out and it shall be fine. The biggest problem I guess is the lategame also against the broodlord and infestors, however you saw how kiwikaki dealt with it accordingly versus game two against Stephano. I don't think anything need to be done here.
What are your guys thoughts? These is just theorycrafting!
That's a really great idea IMO. It would make the shield upgrade something actually worth getting rather than the 'lol, I've finished all other upgrades and I have tons of resources banked upgrade' it is now.
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On October 15 2011 00:49 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 00:21 NeonFox wrote:On October 14 2011 23:59 SeaSwift wrote:On October 14 2011 23:49 Cain0 wrote:On October 14 2011 23:44 NeonFox wrote:There's something weird with this graph, while I understand that Protoss is getting those results in regards to the hard time they have in both PvZ and PvT, the results are actually the worse in ZvT? I don't remember seing zerg struggle THAT hard against terran. TvP is imbalanced because of EMP's TvZ is imbalanced because of rediculous terran openings ZvP seems to favour Z lately but im unsure why. Im just completely unsure how blizzard is going to deal with this... ZvP - Zerg has figured out all Protoss openings and gains an advantage going into the midgame. Then, when Infestors pop out and eventually Broodlords come out Zerg has a far better deathball. I don't agree with the far better deathball, zerg may have a better deathball because of the advantage they get in the midgame, but an optimal protoss deathball will beat an optimal zerg deathball imo. The thing is that nowadays protoss can't get to that point because they are far behind in economy. The main difference in regards to ZvT and ZvP is all based around scouting. Against an FFE build I cn sacrifice an overlord at the 7:00mn mark, coupled with another overlord watching the natural gasses, I know what the protoss will do and will prepare against it. And I feel that gives me an unfair advantage into the midgame. ZvT is the exact opposite, I have no idea what the terran is doing until overseers and sacrificing overlords doesn't work against a competent terran. A way to equilibrate ZvP would be to have some way for protoss to kill those scouting overlords faster, but I have no idea how. Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down.
Look at Stephano vs Kiwikaki. In fact, look at any game where there's broodlord/infestor and count how much gas is in both armies before making ridiculous claims.
Also, look at rule number 2 in the OP.
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On October 15 2011 01:19 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 00:49 ExO_ wrote:On October 15 2011 00:21 NeonFox wrote:On October 14 2011 23:59 SeaSwift wrote:On October 14 2011 23:49 Cain0 wrote:On October 14 2011 23:44 NeonFox wrote:There's something weird with this graph, while I understand that Protoss is getting those results in regards to the hard time they have in both PvZ and PvT, the results are actually the worse in ZvT? I don't remember seing zerg struggle THAT hard against terran. TvP is imbalanced because of EMP's TvZ is imbalanced because of rediculous terran openings ZvP seems to favour Z lately but im unsure why. Im just completely unsure how blizzard is going to deal with this... ZvP - Zerg has figured out all Protoss openings and gains an advantage going into the midgame. Then, when Infestors pop out and eventually Broodlords come out Zerg has a far better deathball. I don't agree with the far better deathball, zerg may have a better deathball because of the advantage they get in the midgame, but an optimal protoss deathball will beat an optimal zerg deathball imo. The thing is that nowadays protoss can't get to that point because they are far behind in economy. The main difference in regards to ZvT and ZvP is all based around scouting. Against an FFE build I cn sacrifice an overlord at the 7:00mn mark, coupled with another overlord watching the natural gasses, I know what the protoss will do and will prepare against it. And I feel that gives me an unfair advantage into the midgame. ZvT is the exact opposite, I have no idea what the terran is doing until overseers and sacrificing overlords doesn't work against a competent terran. A way to equilibrate ZvP would be to have some way for protoss to kill those scouting overlords faster, but I have no idea how. Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down. Look at Stephano vs Kiwikaki. In fact, look at any game where there's broodlord/infestor and count how much gas is in both armies before making ridiculous claims. Also, look at rule number 2 in the OP.
... It's still a true statement. Wishing it were the other way to make your point doesn't do much. The BL infestor composition is much more cost efficient than any toss composition. Then you look at the game and note how you only need to trade with a toss enough to wipe out the power units and roll them with a roach remax. We're still seeing games were Zergs screw up royally the transition into the BLs (aka a deathball with 12 collosi). That's why sen (only other game i can think) botched it. Done competently the infestor shuts down or trades evenly with any attempt to neutralize the BLs.
Kiwi's one off use of a 400/400 unit to cut the army up after every other sort of engagement/micro attempt fail isn't a ringing endorsement of your position. Really it comes down to the the design of the infestor and the total design of zerg that necessitated the infestor.
Also the op has shown quite clearly what kind of balance he wants.
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On October 15 2011 01:26 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 01:19 MilesTeg wrote:On October 15 2011 00:49 ExO_ wrote:On October 15 2011 00:21 NeonFox wrote:On October 14 2011 23:59 SeaSwift wrote:On October 14 2011 23:49 Cain0 wrote:On October 14 2011 23:44 NeonFox wrote:There's something weird with this graph, while I understand that Protoss is getting those results in regards to the hard time they have in both PvZ and PvT, the results are actually the worse in ZvT? I don't remember seing zerg struggle THAT hard against terran. TvP is imbalanced because of EMP's TvZ is imbalanced because of rediculous terran openings ZvP seems to favour Z lately but im unsure why. Im just completely unsure how blizzard is going to deal with this... ZvP - Zerg has figured out all Protoss openings and gains an advantage going into the midgame. Then, when Infestors pop out and eventually Broodlords come out Zerg has a far better deathball. I don't agree with the far better deathball, zerg may have a better deathball because of the advantage they get in the midgame, but an optimal protoss deathball will beat an optimal zerg deathball imo. The thing is that nowadays protoss can't get to that point because they are far behind in economy. The main difference in regards to ZvT and ZvP is all based around scouting. Against an FFE build I cn sacrifice an overlord at the 7:00mn mark, coupled with another overlord watching the natural gasses, I know what the protoss will do and will prepare against it. And I feel that gives me an unfair advantage into the midgame. ZvT is the exact opposite, I have no idea what the terran is doing until overseers and sacrificing overlords doesn't work against a competent terran. A way to equilibrate ZvP would be to have some way for protoss to kill those scouting overlords faster, but I have no idea how. Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down. Look at Stephano vs Kiwikaki. In fact, look at any game where there's broodlord/infestor and count how much gas is in both armies before making ridiculous claims. Also, look at rule number 2 in the OP. ... It's still a true statement. Wishing it were the other way to make your point doesn't do much. The BL infestor composition is much more cost efficient than any toss composition. Then you look at the game and note how you only need to trade with a toss enough to wipe out the power units and roll them with a roach remax. We're still seeing games were Zergs screw up royally the transition into the BLs (aka a deathball with 12 collosi). That's why sen (only other game i can think) botched it. Done competently the infestor shuts down or trades evenly with any attempt to neutralize the BLs. Kiwi's one off use of a 400/400 unit to cut the army up after every other sort of engagement/micro attempt fail isn't a ringing endorsement of your position. Really it comes down to the the design of the infestor and the total design of zerg that necessitated the infestor. Also the op has shown quite clearly what kind of balance he wants.
- Gateway units to just die and tank broodlings.
- Colossi to kill said broodlings and anything else on the ground (keep in mind they now have longer range then neural parasite and fungal growth).
- High templars to one-shot infestors (no really they do).
- Void rays to kill the broodlords, at this point you can kite the broodlings backwards.
You can even use sentries to push infestors out of the way or box them.
The key thing in this fight is not broodlords, it's infestors, cause they are used to lock your army into place and most importantly, kill the void rays. If you manage to break that army, the zerg is dead since the only thing he can remax on in time is roaches, and they die to blink stalkers anyway.
Prove me otherwise, but a proper protoss deathball is stronger than broodlord infestor. And it's meant to be that way, because it takes longer for the protoss to get that comp out and more tech routes. Of course it also depends on micro and on how fast each side can remax.
Now again, it's kind of irrevelant because in the current metagame this situation never really occurs because the zerg has a better economy and can get to his deathball before the protoss.
Perhaps you could provide us with a replay or vod showcasing what you mean?
Edit : I left out mothership + archons, did you now that even with the archon toilet nerf, broodlords out of a vortex spread so slow that they are one shot by the archons? You could get them into a deathball super late game.
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On October 15 2011 01:04 Cain0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 00:49 KimJongChill wrote:Hmm, looks like TvZ is ridiculously imbalanced, while TvP is getting better. Wonder why there isn't more outcry about TvZ. I guess because we are all tired and know that Blizzard won't really nerf terran. I think TvZ is only imbalanced because of the terran openings. If you get into the mid-game on even grounds, I think that Zergling baneling muta into broodlords deal with them pretty well. edit: Unless they go mech, against mech, I dont have a clue at all.
TvZ is the ONLY consistent matchup with a 15 expo. If early Terran aggression were that much of a problem, we'd see more gas/pool first. In fact, most TvZ games end early due to bad control or greedy play. The only exceptions are during big shifts in meta game, like SlayerS hellion marine drop.
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On October 15 2011 02:52 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 01:04 Cain0 wrote:On October 15 2011 00:49 KimJongChill wrote:Hmm, looks like TvZ is ridiculously imbalanced, while TvP is getting better. Wonder why there isn't more outcry about TvZ. I guess because we are all tired and know that Blizzard won't really nerf terran. I think TvZ is only imbalanced because of the terran openings. If you get into the mid-game on even grounds, I think that Zergling baneling muta into broodlords deal with them pretty well. edit: Unless they go mech, against mech, I dont have a clue at all. TvZ is the ONLY consistent matchup with a 15 expo. If early Terran aggression were that much of a problem, we'd see more gas/pool first. In fact, most TvZ games end early due to bad control or greedy play. The only exceptions are during big shifts in meta game, like SlayerS hellion marine drop.
ZvZ? The only matchup where 15 hatch isn't safe is Protoss and it's only because of cannons. And some people are figuring out ways to make it work regardless; I wouldn't be surprised if 15 hatch became more popular in the future.
And I can only speak for myself, but a big reason why 15 hatch is necessary is because Terran is so strong in the early game. I don't want to be caught without larva or creep at my natural. If pool first was more popular smart Terrans would find ways to utterly abuse it.
But I agree, zergs only lose in the early game if they make a mistake. It's just overly punitive IMO. The Terran can screw up his attack and be fine while Zergs really need to be flawless in the first minutes. Honestly at this point I've made peace with that to be honest.
On October 15 2011 01:59 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 01:26 Sabu113 wrote:On October 15 2011 01:19 MilesTeg wrote:On October 15 2011 00:49 ExO_ wrote:On October 15 2011 00:21 NeonFox wrote:On October 14 2011 23:59 SeaSwift wrote:On October 14 2011 23:49 Cain0 wrote:On October 14 2011 23:44 NeonFox wrote:There's something weird with this graph, while I understand that Protoss is getting those results in regards to the hard time they have in both PvZ and PvT, the results are actually the worse in ZvT? I don't remember seing zerg struggle THAT hard against terran. TvP is imbalanced because of EMP's TvZ is imbalanced because of rediculous terran openings ZvP seems to favour Z lately but im unsure why. Im just completely unsure how blizzard is going to deal with this... ZvP - Zerg has figured out all Protoss openings and gains an advantage going into the midgame. Then, when Infestors pop out and eventually Broodlords come out Zerg has a far better deathball. I don't agree with the far better deathball, zerg may have a better deathball because of the advantage they get in the midgame, but an optimal protoss deathball will beat an optimal zerg deathball imo. The thing is that nowadays protoss can't get to that point because they are far behind in economy. The main difference in regards to ZvT and ZvP is all based around scouting. Against an FFE build I cn sacrifice an overlord at the 7:00mn mark, coupled with another overlord watching the natural gasses, I know what the protoss will do and will prepare against it. And I feel that gives me an unfair advantage into the midgame. ZvT is the exact opposite, I have no idea what the terran is doing until overseers and sacrificing overlords doesn't work against a competent terran. A way to equilibrate ZvP would be to have some way for protoss to kill those scouting overlords faster, but I have no idea how. Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down. Look at Stephano vs Kiwikaki. In fact, look at any game where there's broodlord/infestor and count how much gas is in both armies before making ridiculous claims. Also, look at rule number 2 in the OP. ... It's still a true statement. Wishing it were the other way to make your point doesn't do much. The BL infestor composition is much more cost efficient than any toss composition. Then you look at the game and note how you only need to trade with a toss enough to wipe out the power units and roll them with a roach remax. We're still seeing games were Zergs screw up royally the transition into the BLs (aka a deathball with 12 collosi). That's why sen (only other game i can think) botched it. Done competently the infestor shuts down or trades evenly with any attempt to neutralize the BLs. Kiwi's one off use of a 400/400 unit to cut the army up after every other sort of engagement/micro attempt fail isn't a ringing endorsement of your position. Really it comes down to the the design of the infestor and the total design of zerg that necessitated the infestor. Also the op has shown quite clearly what kind of balance he wants. - Gateway units to just die and tank broodlings. - Colossi to kill said broodlings and anything else on the ground (keep in mind they now have longer range then neural parasite and fungal growth). - High templars to one-shot infestors (no really they do). - Void rays to kill the broodlords, at this point you can kite the broodlings backwards. You can even use sentries to push infestors out of the way or box them. The key thing in this fight is not broodlords, it's infestors, cause they are used to lock your army into place and most importantly, kill the void rays. If you manage to break that army, the zerg is dead since the only thing he can remax on in time is roaches, and they die to blink stalkers anyway. Prove me otherwise, but a proper protoss deathball is stronger than broodlord infestor. And it's meant to be that way, because it takes longer for the protoss to get that comp out and more tech routes. Of course it also depends on micro and on how fast each side can remax. Now again, it's kind of irrevelant because in the current metagame this situation never really occurs because the zerg has a better economy and can get to his deathball before the protoss. Perhaps you could provide us with a replay or vod showcasing what you mean? Edit : I left out mothership + archons, did you now that even with the archon toilet nerf, broodlords out of a vortex spread so slow that they are one shot by the archons? You could get them into a deathball super late game.
Leave it, at this point it's everyone saying "no the other deathball is stronger" with no argument on either side.
I just think it's silly to complain about the late game, when it seems Protoss are being constantly beaten in the midgame. Maybe a replay of a Protoss losing to a Zerg deathball despite being ahead would change my mind. Because I can certainly find a lot of replays where it's the other way round.
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On October 15 2011 02:52 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2011 01:04 Cain0 wrote:On October 15 2011 00:49 KimJongChill wrote:Hmm, looks like TvZ is ridiculously imbalanced, while TvP is getting better. Wonder why there isn't more outcry about TvZ. I guess because we are all tired and know that Blizzard won't really nerf terran. I think TvZ is only imbalanced because of the terran openings. If you get into the mid-game on even grounds, I think that Zergling baneling muta into broodlords deal with them pretty well. edit: Unless they go mech, against mech, I dont have a clue at all. TvZ is the ONLY consistent matchup with a 15 expo. If early Terran aggression were that much of a problem, we'd see more gas/pool first. In fact, most TvZ games end early due to bad control or greedy play. The only exceptions are during big shifts in meta game, like SlayerS hellion marine drop.
If only Terrans could outright lose games due to "bad control" or "greedy play" in the early game, wouldn't that be nice? I'm eagerly awaiting HotS, just to see Terrans suffer the Zerg equivalent of 2 rax, and lose countless games at the 5 min mark while Zerg players comment upon their poor control and greediness. I really hope that happens. I could even stomach 20 Zerg in Code S.
By the way, weren't you the guy who told me that 20 Terrans in Code S were a result of the GSL tournament structure?
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ZvZ? The only matchup where 15 hatch isn't safe is Protoss and it's only because of cannons. And some people are figuring out ways to make it work regardless; I wouldn't be surprised if 15 hatch became more popular in the future.
Cannons have to be countered with drones, a 14 pool or 11 pool won't actually have lings out in time to stop a cannon rush. The reason you don't see hatch first in ZvP is because of probe blocks. Terran could do it too, I've seen it done, but they don't have a reason to scout early, whereas Protoss doesn't have to have the worker sit there to build and half the time they'll have a forge up and can hopefully exploit a Zerg who doesn't have an overlord parked or isn't patrolling a drone on the bottom of the ramp. I've also seen Zerg block hatch first too, but again, they can't make cannons if they know you aren't paying attention, and that one drone is actually a huge hit to economy (that's why blind 15 hatch is preferred over hatch first with drone scout).
Also, Protoss want to scout Zerg earlier to make sure they aren't 6 pooling or roach rushing, whereas Terran doesn't really need to scout Zerg that early. Zerg doesn't really want to scout that early either, especially if they want hatch first themselves.
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I didn't think that this was thread-worthy, but I really wanted to get an opinion on this. FOR OCTOBER ONLY (I don't want people voting on this next year sometime if this thread is still open), what is your vote on the balance of the different match-ups AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL?
Poll: What do you think of ZvT balance at the highest level (GSL)?Balanced - no major problems. (30) 55% Imbalanced in favour of Terran! (22) 40% Imbalanced in favour of Zerg! (3) 5% 55 total votes Your vote: What do you think of ZvT balance at the highest level (GSL)? (Vote): Balanced - no major problems.
(Vote): Imbalanced in favour of Terran!
(Vote): Imbalanced in favour of Zerg!
Poll: What do you think of ZvP balance at the highest level (GSL)?Imbalanced in favour of Zerg! (39) 78% Balanced - no major problems. (9) 18% Imbalanced in favour of Protoss! (2) 4% 50 total votes Your vote: What do you think of ZvP balance at the highest level (GSL)? (Vote): Balanced - no major problems.
(Vote): Imbalanced in favour of Protoss!
(Vote): Imbalanced in favour of Zerg!
Poll: What do you think of PvT balance at the highest level (GSL)?Imbalanced in favour of Terran! (44) 88% Balanced - no major problems. (3) 6% Imbalanced in favour of Protoss! (3) 6% 50 total votes Your vote: What do you think of PvT balance at the highest level (GSL)? (Vote): Balanced - no major problems.
(Vote): Imbalanced in favour of Protoss!
(Vote): Imbalanced in favour of Terran!
I just want to see how these pan out - obviously, there will be biases, and people who look at this thread often are more likely to be concerned about balance so I doubt the "balanced - no major problems" option will be used much, but it's still interesting to see what the unwashed masses think! 
Again, I'd like to make it clear that this is just for October - if you come along in December sometime and want to have your opinion heard, put it in a post, not in a poll. Again, also note this is for the highest level - if you are dying to Planetary Fortress rushes in Silver league, don't put that down here.
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ZvT - balanced. Why do people think it's imbalanced, I don't understand. Nestea threw away his games against MVP in an extremely close series.
Still shocked anyone thinks Zerg is favored in ZvP. It seems people are just spewing out the recent win rates without actually viewing the games. MC kicked ass against Zerg and lost to making some pretty big blunders in games he would have easily won. Anypro, Hongun, Tassadar, Oz, threw away their series against Zergs by cheesing and all around coinflip based play against opponents who have historically performed better. Despite all this, every game has been different, so I don't know how Zerg is OP when each game Zerg has won at different stages of the game with different build.
You'd think something being OP would be a unit or strat Zerg would always use, no matter what if the opponent scouted or reacted to, and Zerg would still win with it. But it's not like every ZvP is mass roach, or mass infestors. Every Zerg has played extremely differently, using different units, strats, and winning by different means, but apparently it's "op".
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On October 15 2011 05:32 Belial88 wrote:
Still shocked anyone thinks Zerg is favored in ZvP. It seems people are just spewing out the recent win rates without actually viewing the games. MC kicked ass against Zerg and lost to making some pretty big blunders in games he would have easily won. Anypro, Hongun, Tassadar, Oz, threw away their series against Zergs by cheesing and all around coinflip based play against opponents who have historically performed better. Despite all this, every game has been different, so I don't know how Zerg is OP when each game Zerg has won at different stages of the game with different build.
You'd think something being OP would be a unit or strat Zerg would always use, no matter what if the opponent scouted or reacted to, and Zerg would still win with it. But it's not like every ZvP is mass roach, or mass infestors. Every Zerg has played extremely differently, using different units, strats, and winning by different means, but apparently it's "op".
Personally, I think that if Zerg is overpowered in ZvP at all, it is because of the early-midgame and possibly the Infestor.
There don't seem to be any really viable Protoss openers vs Zerg at the highest level. FFE can be beaten by a fast 3rd or maybe an all-in. 3gate expand is now far too slow to compete with Zerg's macro and is too safe. The Warp Gate nerf made most early threatening Gateway attacks worse, and 2base all-ins have been pretty much solved.
The Infestor just... doesn't seem to have a counter. Like the Sentry, it seems to be a crutch caster, but whereas Protoss needs the Sentry in all matchups to survive, Zerg doesn't really need Infestors to win ZvP. The highest level of ZvP has never had problems vs Protoss before the Infestor buff and Nestea hardly uses them even now (although given the lack of Protoss players I doubt we've seen all his builds). Micro is very important at the highest level, and Infestors prevent Protoss from microing - which, if you think about it, is a greater problem at the highest level than at the lower levels where micro is minimal anyway.
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Personally, I think that if Zerg is overpowered in ZvP at all, it is because of the early-midgame and possibly the Infestor.
And how exactly is Zerg OP in the early game?
There's also HT. They counter infestors pretty damn hard, and come out much quicker and cheaper than infestors too. FG does not > FB at all either, watch any pro game where Protoss gets HT, and you will see they always get FB off efficiently. I have never seen a single pro game where Protoss attempts FB and fails because they get chain FG'd.
Not to mention Colossi. Same range, or now have more range. And the infestor is Zerg's stalker, the Zerg's marine. We need a versatile unit, even if it's T2 (actually in respect to the tech time and cost of other race's units, it would be more appropriately called tier 3 since it's costlier and takes longer to tech to than HT), since hydras are just useless, and no other unit is good besides in just a few types of situations.
Zerg definitely needs infestors to survive in ZvP, and Nestea always used them in late-game in ZvP. The reason you never see Nestea use them, is because he always ends games against Protoss before the end game. Nestea has some of the best god damn Hydra timings in the world, but I've never seen him win a ZvP when Protoss got 4 bases. That said, none of his GSL games have gotten to a point where Protoss got more than 2 colossi out.
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On October 15 2011 07:05 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Personally, I think that if Zerg is overpowered in ZvP at all, it is because of the early-midgame and possibly the Infestor. And how exactly is Zerg OP in the early game?
I'll quote myself here for you
On October 15 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:
There don't seem to be any really viable Protoss openers vs Zerg at the highest level. FFE can be beaten by a fast 3rd or maybe an all-in. 3gate expand is now far too slow to compete with Zerg's macro and is too safe. The Warp Gate nerf made most early threatening Gateway attacks worse, and 2base all-ins have been pretty much solved.
That is why. It is actually entirely possible that this is a metagame issue, rather than a balance issue, which is why I said "if Zerg is actually overpowered in ZvP at all".
On October 15 2011 06:25 SeaSwift wrote:
There's also HT. They counter infestors pretty damn hard, and come out much quicker and cheaper than infestors too. FG does not > FB at all either, watch any pro game where Protoss gets HT, and you will see they always get FB off efficiently. I have never seen a single pro game where Protoss attempts FB and fails because they get chain FG'd.
Well, I have seen pro Protoss fail to FB because of chain fungals, so I suppose our anecdotes go against each other.
On October 15 2011 07:05 Belial88 wrote:Not to mention Colossi. Same range, or now have more range. And the infestor is Zerg's stalker, the Zerg's marine. We need a versatile unit, even if it's T2 (actually in respect to the tech time and cost of other race's units, it would be more appropriately called tier 3 since it's costlier and takes longer to tech to than HT), since hydras are just useless, and no other unit is good besides in just a few types of situations.
Comparing the Infestor to the Stalker is hilarious. They fulfil totally different functions. The Stalker was INTENDED to be a good all-round unit, but it doesn't work out that way.
The Infestor is a "crutch" unit, holding Zergs up because without them they apparently have problems with tightly packed armies. Their other units are fairly weak, and the Infestor helps make them better because it is such a really good unit, and versatile. The Stalker, on the other hand, is a unit that Protoss is forced to make to kill flying units and as a ranged defense early, but really doesn't want to make. The Stalker is ridiculously cost-inefficient (SCVs beat Stalkers for cost-efficiency for DPS!), and apart from certain Blink timings Stalkers are considering something you don't want to make unless necessary in PvZ. A much better comparison would be the Sentry and the Infestor - both casters, both have mobility hindering spells, both are complained about, both are crutch units to help make up for the army's weaknesses in a "straight up" fight.
I don't really want to talk about the tech time or cost or whatever of particular units, especially casters, between armies. Not because the conversation wouldn't favour me - personally, I think Infestors are far easier to build en masse - but because it is absolutely fruitless. Zerg has a very different tech tree and unit production style to Protoss, so trying to compare unit production and tech availability in a vacuum between them is a bad idea.
On October 15 2011 07:05 Belial88 wrote:Zerg definitely needs infestors to survive in ZvP, and Nestea always used them in late-game in ZvP. The reason you never see Nestea use them, is because he always ends games against Protoss before the end game. Nestea has some of the best god damn Hydra timings in the world, but I've never seen him win a ZvP when Protoss got 4 bases. That said, none of his GSL games have gotten to a point where Protoss got more than 2 colossi out.
Do you mind giving some links to relatively recent games in which Nestea has used Infestors in late-game ZvP? I haven't seen much of his recent ZvP, probably because he hardly ever has to play a Protoss because their all being sent to Up/Downs =/
You also seem to contradict yourself here: you say Nestea always uses Infestors in lategame ZvP, then you say that none of his GSL games have gotten to a point where Protoss got more than 2 Colossi out. Given that most Protoss will have Colossi by the lategame, I assume you mean that he gets into the lategame against Protoss players not in the GSL. Where did you find these games, then?
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Switzerland2892 Posts
To talk a bit about map balance what do you guys think about dual sight?
I think it should be removed from tournaments map pool because protoss winrates against other races are terrible, I don't know any other map with such a low winrate for any race. It's praticlly impossible to take a 3rd as a protoss.
But it seems to be pretty balanced in tvz and tvt is often nice on this map.
Do you have any thoughts about it?
edit: actually steppes of war had 30% winrate for z against p, the same as for p against z for dual sight.
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Comparing the Infestor to the Stalker is hilarious. They fulfil totally different functions. The Stalker was INTENDED to be a good all-round unit, but it doesn't work out that way.
The Infestor is a "crutch" unit, holding Zergs up because without them they apparently have problems with tightly packed armies. Their other units are fairly weak, and the Infestor helps make them better because it is such a really good unit, and versatile. The Stalker, on the other hand, is a unit that Protoss is forced to make to kill flying units and as a ranged defense early, but really doesn't want to make. The Stalker is ridiculously cost-inefficient (SCVs beat Stalkers for cost-efficiency for DPS!), and apart from certain Blink timings Stalkers are considering something you don't want to make unless necessary in PvZ. A much better comparison would be the Sentry and the Infestor - both casters, both have mobility hindering spells, both are complained about, both are crutch units to help make up for the army's weaknesses in a "straight up" fight.
You will not see any Zergs in masters+ solely because of infestors. Destiny has actually risen in rank. Cost efficiency is pretty ridiculous to bring up, as you point out yourself with your SCV analogy. Supply efficiency is more important in the early game when both players will have equal supply until something drastic occurs (big battle, someone taking a third, etc).
Zerg needs infestors because they have no other versatile unit. We can't exactly rely on hydras or roaches to be the meat or supplements of our army, because of the extreme supply effectiveness of certain Protoss units meaning it's not realistic for Zerg to make 10-20 hydras to deal with a large air force because of the presence of 3-4 colossi. Zerg can't make mass roaches, because of robo units. Zerg can't just make some mutas or corruptors to deal with colossi, because of stalkers. Zerg needs a 'sentry' in the mid-game when mass numbers doesn't mean as much anymore, and they can't field hive tech yet.
. Zerg has a very different tech tree and unit production style to Protoss, so trying to compare unit production and tech availability in a vacuum between them is a bad idea.
It only disqualifies the argument that Protoss has no counter to infestors, or can't get HT against infestors, that's all.
Do you mind giving some links to relatively recent games in which Nestea has used Infestors in late-game ZvP? I haven't seen much of his recent ZvP, probably because he hardly ever has to play a Protoss because their all being sent to Up/Downs =/
Definitely not GSL games.
http://sc2casts.com/cast5539-NesTea-vs-HwangSin-1-Game-Starcraft-Ladder-Korean-Starcraft-Match
He seems to get them when ZvP's go that long but he's won the game already. I'll try to find examples, but in general he seems to win his GSL games before fielding them anyways. He seems to do timing attacks with or before hydra tech, infestors seem to come too late to whatever he ends up doing.
He doesn't really play many ZvPs in the GSL, and the few ones he plays are against much lower level players (he never plays against huk, genius, alicia, MC, puzzle) and he doesn't really play in the GSTL, as MVP and other IM players are fielded before him or are chosen instead due to maybe the other player's strength against zerg or weakness against T/P.
Maybe a better example would be losira or DRG, who you can see getting infestors always in ZvP after the roach/ling phase. A good example would be the two ZvPs DRG played in the last GSL, where he won with taking a fast third vs FFE. In these games they seem to win before infestors are necessary, often winning the game with a huge macro lead on 3-4 bases or through roach/ling pressure.
you say Nestea always uses Infestors in lategame ZvP, then you say that none of his GSL games have gotten to a point where Protoss got more than 2 Colossi out. Given that most Protoss will have Colossi by the lategame, I assume you mean that he gets into the lategame against Protoss players not in the GSL. Where did you find these games, then?
Very few of these games exist, so not the best example, but a few of his ladder games that were put on youtube or something. Nestea in the GSl always ends games before 2 colossi/lategame though.
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Just curious to see the flavors of answers to this question:
why is hydralisk not tier 1?
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On October 15 2011 15:22 Wire wrote:
Just curious to see the flavors of answers to this question:
why is hydralisk not tier 1?
Because Blizzard forgot that in order to preserve racial identity and feel 'swarmy', the zerg needed a 1 supply unit. Now most racial unit counts are the same, besides lings.
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EPT
