EPTOn October 15 2011 00:49 ExO_ wrote:
Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down.
Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down.
Mothership ^^
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 156
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usethis2
2164 Posts
Mothership ^^ | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
I really hope blizzard would do something to Terran's early game soon, because it's really starting to hurt starcraft2. A lot of my friends, including myself are simply not interested in TvT finals...which are becoming so frequent, it's mind boggling. Did anyone take a look at the WCG racial distribution? 55% Terrans 22% Protoss 22% Zerg. What the hell? I'm no game designer but maybe....just maybe....requiring 100 gas to make an orbital would solve everything.... | ||
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positron.
634 Posts
On October 15 2011 17:06 neoghaleon55 wrote: I'm no game designer but maybe....just maybe....requiring 100 gas to make an orbital would solve everything.... That is exactly why you are not and will never be a game designer. 100 gas for OC? where would you get that amount of gas in the early game? There is no CB and no larva for Terran. It would mean they will be behind in worker count until that first 100 gas. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On October 15 2011 17:06 neoghaleon55 wrote: Nestea is somewhat of an anomaly in SC2 right now, the same way sAvior was in broodwars. However, I do agree that he deserved to lose that series against IMMVP by constantly getting his drones roasted for no reason by mass hellions. Had he made 2 spines or maybe 4 speedbanes per expansion, he would have been fine. I really hope blizzard would do something to Terran's early game soon, because it's really starting to hurt starcraft2. A lot of my friends, including myself are simply not interested in TvT finals...which are becoming so frequent, it's mind boggling. Did anyone take a look at the WCG racial distribution? 55% Terrans 22% Protoss 22% Zerg. What the hell? I'm no game designer but maybe....just maybe....requiring 100 gas to make an orbital would solve everything.... I would disagree with nerfing terran's early game for one simple reason. I believe that Terran is by FAR the most pollished race with the highest possible skill ceiling, while Zerg and Protoss are lagging behind on both ends. I'd rather see Zerg and Protoss being moved up to par so that Zerg has more possibilities for micro and Protoss has more abilities to do multi pronged attacks and easier harass. As a Zerg I hardly think Terran's early game is all that strong. The only thing I occasionally lose to is a Marauder Hellion all in or a BitByBit variant. But that's because I'm playing a little greedy sometimes, not because of Terran's strong early game. Terran's early game harass in the form of banshees of blueflame hellions sets them back in core army, which is really appearant in TvZ where the marine-tank push is delayed by a TON allowing the zerg to easily recouperate unless the Zerg has suffered a ton of drones to the harass. The only problem I see is Protoss' weak early game compared to the rest of the races, often relying on support units like the sentries to stay safe while getting up the expansions or tech. Which makes Protoss very vulnerable to early game Terran timings that are executed well because of the prevelance of range in the Terran army. If anything Protoss' early game needs to be less shaky so that they don't have to commit to one tech fully just to hold off one particular all in, and another to combat another style. If both of Protoss AND Zerg get a higher skill ceiling, you will see a much more balanced GSL and top tournaments race-wise given enough time. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On October 15 2011 15:42 kofman wrote: TvZ is balanced, the only reason why people are suddenly complaining about it is the GSL graph. However, if you actually play the MU, I think you would find that its probably the best MU in the game, both in terms of balance and gameplay. One mistake for either side could cost you the game; having a bad engagement as zerg, or getting caught unseiged as terran. It's pretty ridiculous how much people read into just a number. Remember, Nestea lost to the the best player in the world, MVP, 3-2. It could have gone either way. This. Blizzard did a poll a while back about people's favorite matchups to watch. All the mirror match-ups were in last, with PvP at 1%. TvP was the least favorite of the other match-ups, then PvZ, and ZvT was easily on top with like 33% of the total vote. Metagames shift. Look at winrates for Brood War in TvZ, and you'll see massive "imbalances" in the direction of one race, then the other for long periods of time. But between when Terran was winning constantly and when Zerg was winning constantly, the game wasn't patched to fix balance. People just figured out new strategies and the other race needed a while to figure out a response. | ||
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OnlineHero
Denmark647 Posts
On October 15 2011 17:56 Chaosvuistje wrote: I would disagree with nerfing terran's early game for one simple reason. I believe that Terran is by FAR the most pollished race with the highest possible skill ceiling, while Zerg and Protoss are lagging behind on both ends. I'd rather see Zerg and Protoss being moved up to par so that Zerg has more possibilities for micro and Protoss has more abilities to do multi pronged attacks and easier harass. As a Zerg I hardly think Terran's early game is all that strong. The only thing I occasionally lose to is a Marauder Hellion all in or a BitByBit variant. But that's because I'm playing a little greedy sometimes, not because of Terran's strong early game. Terran's early game harass in the form of banshees of blueflame hellions sets them back in core army, which is really appearant in TvZ where the marine-tank push is delayed by a TON allowing the zerg to easily recouperate unless the Zerg has suffered a ton of drones to the harass. The only problem I see is Protoss' weak early game compared to the rest of the races, often relying on support units like the sentries to stay safe while getting up the expansions or tech. Which makes Protoss very vulnerable to early game Terran timings that are executed well because of the prevelance of range in the Terran army. If anything Protoss' early game needs to be less shaky so that they don't have to commit to one tech fully just to hold off one particular all in, and another to combat another style. If both of Protoss AND Zerg get a higher skill ceiling, you will see a much more balanced GSL and top tournaments race-wise given enough time. I agree with most of what you said. I do, however, find terran's early game really strong. The reason I think it's strong, is because of all the different things they can do. They have a great variety of openings that are all very strong. This means that the terran always dictates how the early game is played out. They don't need to react to a certain Z or P opening, while Z and P players need to identify what the terran is doing and act accordingly every time. I also think that terran is not dependent enough on gas in the early game. Both marines and hellions are minerals only, while mules bring in a ton of minerals. Protoss are perhaps a bit too dependent on gas early game as well. I agree that nerfing terrans is not the way to go. Bringing up zerg's and protoss' early game somehow would be a better option. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 15 2011 18:43 ChristianS wrote: This. Blizzard did a poll a while back about people's favorite matchups to watch. All the mirror match-ups were in last, with PvP at 1%. TvP was the least favorite of the other match-ups, then PvZ, and ZvT was easily on top with like 33% of the total vote. Metagames shift. Look at winrates for Brood War in TvZ, and you'll see massive "imbalances" in the direction of one race, then the other for long periods of time. But between when Terran was winning constantly and when Zerg was winning constantly, the game wasn't patched to fix balance. People just figured out new strategies and the other race needed a while to figure out a response. Indeed, there were long periods of time in BW, where Terran was dominating TvZ, and long periods of time where Zerg was winning more. Now, show me a period of time where either Protoss or Zerg dominated Terran in SC2. The only time Protoss was notably ahead in PvT (at like 55% or somesuch), they instantly got KA removed, which was a huge gamechanging nerf. What's even funnier, judging by current Terran play, KA could easily be reintroduced back into the game without making PvT imbalanced. So yeah, David Kim (and the legion of Terran players whining about KA on forums) clearly don't believe in the BW doctrine of "letting it work itself out". I'd actually prefer to have Protoss and Zerg staight-up buffed for the time being. And even though I do believe Terran is by far the best-designed race, I don't necessarily think they should be looked up to as an good example to follow. Some aspects of Terran - like Salvage or MULEs - are just stupid, and would make the game worse even if it was balanced. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
On October 15 2011 18:43 ChristianS wrote: Metagames shift. Look at winrates for Brood War in TvZ, and you'll see massive "imbalances" in the direction of one race, then the other for long periods of time. But between when Terran was winning constantly and when Zerg was winning constantly, the game wasn't patched to fix balance. People just figured out new strategies and the other race needed a while to figure out a response. But in BW, it looked like that because of Gosu's just destroying everyone else. Not every terran was doing as good as Flash when he first started being insane, but he and he only skewed the W:L of all terrans. Like when FD won GSL S1. But now literally every code is terran is somewhat of a force to be reckoned with, not like how every zerg was as good as FD in S1. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 15 2011 19:25 Toadvine wrote: Indeed, there were long periods of time in BW, where Terran was dominating TvZ, and long periods of time where Zerg was winning more. Now, show me a period of time where either Protoss or Zerg dominated Terran in SC2. The only time Protoss was notably ahead in PvT (at like 55% or somesuch), they instantly got KA removed, which was a huge gamechanging nerf. What's even funnier, judging by current Terran play, KA could easily be reintroduced back into the game without making PvT imbalanced. So yeah, David Kim (and the legion of Terran players whining about KA on forums) clearly don't believe in the BW doctrine of "letting it work itself out". I'd actually prefer to have Protoss and Zerg staight-up buffed for the time being. And even though I do believe Terran is by far the best-designed race, I don't necessarily think they should be looked up to as an good example to follow. Some aspects of Terran - like Salvage or MULEs - are just stupid, and would make the game worse even if it was balanced. @bolded part: exactly! That's where most of the whining comes from imo. Only with Terran does Blizzard err on the side of "letting it work itself out." Meanwhile, benign rushes like blink rush (which is a huge risk) get nerfed to the ground. I keep saying it, because I find it ridiculous. 30 seconds is way, way too huge a nerf. That's half a minute nerf on a build that wasn't even a problem! Have you seen the list of Protoss nerfs since beta? They're huge. You've got values like "30 seconds" being thrown around. Protoss as a race was practically butchered, with entire things being removed straight up (Flux Vanes, KA). And yet 1-1-1 is metagame apparently and not imbalanced, according to Blizz. Even the absolute earliest beta complaint from Protoss was deemed metagame. Gateway units get creamed by rax units. The complaints fell on deaf ears. This resulted in using FF to survive on 1 base and get colossus asap. The very foundations of Protoss play are based on this lopsided consideration from Blizzard. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
On October 15 2011 17:36 positron. wrote: That is exactly why you are not and will never be a game designer. 100 gas for OC? where would you get that amount of gas in the early game? There is no CB and no larva for Terran. It would mean they will be behind in worker count until that first 100 gas. In all honesty, do terrans NEED mules as early as 15 supply? When all 3 races hit approximatly 20 supply, terran takes the economy lead by a large stretch and is able to maintain it all game. If terran economy was cut in half, you could still survive any sub-8 minute timing attack using marines, bunkers, scv's and stutter step micro. That is not the case for zerg, who would just outright die. Mules need to be in the game to balance out the lack of chrono boost, larvae inject and scv building time, but 270 minerals per mule? I personally think that if that value was halved, terrans would still win an awful lot. It would be far from game breaking. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 15 2011 19:32 Brotocol wrote: @bolded part: exactly! That's where most of the whining comes from imo. Only with Terran does Blizzard err on the side of "letting it work itself out." Meanwhile, benign rushes like blink rush (which is a huge risk) get nerfed to the ground. I keep saying it, because I find it ridiculous. 30 seconds is way, way too huge a nerf. That's half a minute nerf on a build that wasn't even a problem! Have you seen the list of Protoss nerfs since beta? They're huge. You've got values like "30 seconds" being thrown around. Protoss as a race was practically butchered, with entire things being removed straight up (Flux Vanes, KA). And yet 1-1-1 is metagame apparently and not imbalanced, according to Blizz. Even the absolute earliest beta complaint from Protoss was deemed metagame. Gateway units get creamed by rax units. The complaints fell on deaf ears. This resulted in using FF to survive on 1 base and get colossus asap. The very foundations of Protoss play are based on this lopsided consideration from Blizzard. The Flux Vanes removal is actually one of the more puzzling nerfs in SC2 patching history, for me at least. Prior to that PTR, the only place I've seen it used in high-level play was Kiwikaki's VR based PvZ, which wasn't even used in any major tournaments. Then suddenly it was Catz talking to David Kim, who was proposing Flux Vanes removal in return for Fungal not hitting air. That was the initial "deal" on the PTR, one nerf to compensate for the other. A few weeks of Zerg whining later, Fungal was reverted to hitting air units, Flux Vanes was removed anyway cause lol. Guess Protoss players simply didn't whine on battle.net forums enough. And just like that, a cool and underdeveloped option for Protoss lategame harass was just removed from the game for no real reason. I mean, I can usually understand why Blizzard implements changes, even though I may not agree on the nature of a particular change, but that was simply mind-boggling. Or, maybe I should accept that team games are simply this important. Yay for Blizzard supporting e-sports, I guess. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
Too big of a liability. Neural Parasite means a cloaked Zerg army and Protoss has detection issues. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On October 15 2011 19:07 OnlineHero wrote: I agree with most of what you said. I do, however, find terran's early game really strong. The reason I think it's strong, is because of all the different things they can do. They have a great variety of openings that are all very strong. This means that the terran always dictates how the early game is played out. They don't need to react to a certain Z or P opening, while Z and P players need to identify what the terran is doing and act accordingly every time. I also think that terran is not dependent enough on gas in the early game. Both marines and hellions are minerals only, while mules bring in a ton of minerals. Protoss are perhaps a bit too dependent on gas early game as well. I agree that nerfing terrans is not the way to go. Bringing up zerg's and protoss' early game somehow would be a better option. Terran's dictate how Zerg and Protoss should respond, NOT the game. In ZvT, if the Terran decides to go for some kind of hellion play and I open with 3 roaches and some lings while droning like a madman, he has no control over the game. Terran hardly has to react to Zergs and Protoss because those races are both stronger as the game progresses while playing Terran gets remarkably harder in the midgame and early lategame. Terran HAS to put on pressure to check the Protoss' tech path or to keep the Zerg in check. A Terran that does not pressure is doomed to fall into a pit of misery where they lose all map control and get denied bases. Terran is not a very gas-reliant race in the early game, but neither is Zerg because both of their early game units can battle one another quite evenly in normal game circumstances. Protoss is the only race that has to rely on superior tech or support units to carry them out of the early game because their gateway units cannot fight a Terran straight up ( while I find the fight to be much more even in ZvP's case, slightly P favoured in case of good forcefields ) when there is stim or medivacs up in the air. Seriously, it's absolutely disgusting watching 15 marauders with 8 medivacs just forcing themselves down over the Protoss gateway force with relative ease just because Stalkers can't do anything to the MM ball in even numbers. In my opinion it is so blatantly appearant that the main gateway bulk like Zealots and Stalkers are nothing more than a meat shield that provides cover for the sentries, high templar and Collosus. That's why I dislike playing against or playing protoss right now but will probably love it once they fix the issue of overly strong 'support' units and relatively weak gateway armies in HotS ( I have hopes ). | ||
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Spitfire
South Africa442 Posts
On October 15 2011 20:57 Chaosvuistje wrote: Seriously, it's absolutely disgusting watching 15 marauders with 8 medivacs just forcing themselves down over the Protoss gateway force with relative ease just because Stalkers can't do anything to the MM ball in even numbers. In my opinion it is so blatantly appearant that the main gateway bulk like Zealots and Stalkers are nothing more than a meat shield that provides cover for the sentries, high templar and Collosus. That's why I dislike playing against or playing protoss right now but will probably love it once they fix the issue of overly strong 'support' units and relatively weak gateway armies in HotS ( I have hopes ). Problem is, if they make the Gateway army stronger, wont Warp Gate tech be too strong? | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
On October 15 2011 22:23 Spitfire wrote: Problem is, if they make the Gateway army stronger, wont Warp Gate tech be too strong? It will, which is why they're so weak in the first place. Blizzard has to rethink some design choices they made with sc2 like warpgate, MULE, salvaging, addon swapping and some of the units. I'm guessing most of us are putting our hopes in HotS, I know I am. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 15 2011 23:18 Destructicon wrote: If Warp Gate Tech was moved to Twilight Council or, if Warp Gate tech required a TC or a Templar Archives, then you could safely buff GW units for the early game without worrying about Warp being too strong, by the mid game it should turn out well enough. Absolutely agree. I said something similar earlier in the thread. | ||
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Elite__
Canada976 Posts
On October 15 2011 20:23 branflakes14 wrote: Too big of a liability. Neural Parasite means a cloaked Zerg army and Protoss has detection issues. you act like neural parasite is unstoppable once it happens - its not that hard to target an infestor and kill it before the zerg brings the mothership over their army. with the recent NP change its also incredibly hard to NP the mothership without the infestor being killed by 9 range colossus. watch inka play with his mothership, he positions it well and uses it to its full ability almost every PvZ late game and most of the time it works out to his benefit | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And yet 1-1-1 is metagame apparently and not imbalanced, according to Blizz. What about the immortal buff? Blizz specifically said 1-1-1 was a problem. I think they did the right move in trying to let the metagame work it out, but giving a small nudge. TvZ is balanced, the only reason why people are suddenly complaining about it is the GSL graph. However, if you actually play the MU, I think you would find that its probably the best MU in the game, both in terms of balance and gameplay. One mistake for either side could cost you the game; having a bad engagement as zerg, or getting caught unseiged as terran. It's pretty ridiculous how much people read into just a number. Remember, Nestea lost to the the best player in the world, MVP, 3-2. It could have gone either way. Totally agree. He really threw away those games imo, with all those roach all-ins (seriously? Dropping roaches on marines?) and not having spines up at expos. Infestor/BL beats any P deathball combo of equal resource value hands down. Not true at all. Deathballs just stomp Infestor/BL so hard, and is much cheaper. VR/Colossi where any infestor who tries to come in range is 1-shotted by equal range/longer range (pre/post patch) colossi, Stalker/Colossi where you just blink under the BL's and either fuck everything up, or force Zerg to run away. God forbid you have HT in your protoss army, then you throw in some feedbacks and everything dies once the frail infestors are gone. Infestor/BL SHOULD beat any protoss army. It takes prohibitively long to get to, much longer than Protoss deathballs, and costs much more. The thing is, it doesn't even beat Protoss deathballs of equal resource value (so your straight up wrong) or even less value and is much slower. It's such a frail army composition. Try playing any Zerg army against a Protoss deathball. I don't think protoss players understand how strong their deathball is either. Zerg has no deathball in comparison, and Infestor/BL is so shitty in comparison. Protoss armies just stomp Zerg deathballs, and will hit 200/200 in time against it since it takes so.fucking.long to get to (4 minutes and over 2k gas to get broodlords from lairtech, and that's assuming you have poor macro and money banked and make everything preemptively). 200/200 Stalker/Colossi or VR/Colossi or Anything/Colossi/HT just rapes any Zerg army so hard, especially BL/Infestor. | ||
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