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On October 13 2011 10:23 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 10:12 Toadvine wrote:On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:A 1gate expand will not survive [a 2 rax] without pulled probes, and even then the Protoss is far behind, Unless your HuK, then you can hold a Marine King Prime 3 rax with a 1 gate expand without using probes. Unless you can count to 3, and realize that MarineKing's build was not a 2 rax, and the timing of his attack was significantly later. 3 includes 2, and he did the exact push in question.
I'm really confused by this. You do mean the GSTL game, right? Because there MarineKing did a fake Reaper expand into a 3 rax all-in without stim. The timing and power of the attack were much different than that of the standard 2 rax. A reactor first 2 rax executed by me (which is not optimal by any means) moves out around the 5:00 mark with 5 marines, 1 Marauder with CS halfway done, and 4-5 scvs. MarineKing moved out after the 6:00 mark with what looks like 6 Marines, 2 Marauders and 4 scvs. HuK's additional gateways finished morphing at 6:30, when the 2 rax would've been at his natural around 5:45.
Besides, if MKP hadn't shown him the reaper, his units production would have been even further delayed by the Robo he would have needed to make in case of a cloaked banshee.
So yeah, not the same thing, at all.
On October 13 2011 16:46 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 07:54 Toadvine wrote:On October 13 2011 07:37 ChristianS wrote:On October 13 2011 06:08 SeaSwift wrote:On October 13 2011 06:05 ChristianS wrote: What's more, personal experience (admittedly limited) suggests to me that a one-base immortal-stalker-zealot force can kill either one in a straight-up fight. But protoss don't get immortal-stalker-zealot because they don't even need to do that to hold early Terran pushes. Emphasis mine. If you think that Protoss can get an Immortal/Stalker/Zealot force out BEFORE a 2rax hits (I assume that's what you meant by "either one" - 1-1-1 or 2rax) then there really isn't much point discussing balance with you. On October 13 2011 06:05 ChristianS wrote:
This is why specific replays are good, so we can watch a specific game and decide what the real causes of the loss really were. Many come down to a clear misread or badly microed battle, rather than some inherent game flaw. I will try and get some replays/VODs for you, but your last sentence is flawed. Unless both players are playing ABSOLUTELY perfectly, both will make mistakes. These mistakes can have different consequences - for a Terran, thinking your Zerg opponent is roach-busting so that you put down a bunker and build a Marauder or two has competely different consequences from the Zerg thinking the Terran is going for a 2base all-in and making non-stop units for nearly 5 minutes in preparation, as an example. What loses a battle or a game for one race won't for another race, which makes claiming that evidence cannot have any misreads or bad micro at some point for it to function ridiculous, as there may be many mistakes you didn't notice or deem important, simply because they had less impact. Code S Spoiler: + Show Spoiler +I reckon that IMMVP mismicroed a ton of Hellions yesterday vs Nestea - Nestea misread IMMVP's build for a 2base Thor push in one game. I would hypothesise that as a Protoss, micro as poor as some of MVP's with Hellions would outright cost you the game. As a viewer, you are unlikely to notice MVP's poor control, because it had little impact. If MC mismicroed a couple of Void Rays/Phoenix in the same fashion and they were quickly sniped, as a viewer that would be noticed a lot more because it would have a far greater impact on the game. Basically, for you to take into account EVERY alleged misread or bad piece of micro requires a completely objective viewer, and we don't have that, so we have to work with what we have. In the end, it will come down to opinion, trying to back those opinions up with what little hard evidence we can find. As I said, I'll get some replays/VODs for you, but don't expect to get a miracle change of perspective. Given that so many posts on this thread consist of "I lost to this strat, so it's strong, which means its imba," I hardly feel bad about acknowledging my own experience with some builds. But in the absence of a VOD for support, your claim that 2-rax can only be held by one base gateway, and 1-1-1 can only be held by early expand -> robo is just a statement of your personal experience. Mis-micro has varying consequences depending on the situation in which the micro is done badly. Mis-micro'ing fungals can lose you all your infestors. Mis-micro'ing ghosts can lose you all your ghosts. Mis-micro'ing colossi can result in them being off in the open without stalker support, often losing you your colossi. As a rule, the more mobile the unit, the less it hurts to mis-micro. So hellions don't hurt too much, nor do zerglings. But Terran hardly has an advantage here, since they are hardly the most mobile race. Hellions are an exception to a rule of T armies that are either: mech (perhaps the least mobile army in SC2), bio (more mobile than colossi force, less mobile than mass gateway), or sky terran (more mobile than ground forces, but less mobile than any other race's air). Conc shell punishes bad micro more. But if you see that a Terran has conc shell, you can pretty much cross off 1-1-1. And FG and force field punish bad micro more than conc shell does. Of course everyone makes mistakes. But if a game was lost because a Protoss couldn't scout a Terran between 1-1-1 and 2-rax, and guessed wrong because there was no way they could have differentiated between the two, then that would be evident in the replay. It would not appear that they lost because of a mis-micro or a bad read on available information; it would appear that the information was not there, and they had no other choice. As a side note, what kind of 2rax are we talking about? I assume you don't mean the gasless 11rax-12 rax. That opening is a joke against Protoss. So do you mean a push with a couple marauders and 3-5 marines, maybe a couple pulled SCV's? Combat shield push? Stim push? Fast ghost push? These hit at different times. I'm almost certain a 2gate robo can get out immortals by the time a stim push happens, but of course it can't against an 11rax-12rax. Specificity about the build you are having trouble with is really flat out necessary in a balance discussion. I'm left here wondering why you even think you should be discussing this, if you need to ask what people mean by 1/1/1, and what version of 2 rax they're referring to... This isn't the "provide multiple replays, so ChristianS can educate himself on popular TvP builds" thread. You seem to think statements like "a 2 rax will almost always kill the natural Nexus against 1 Gate FE" or "the Protoss needs an expansion to be able to hold a 1/1/1 all-in" are somehow controversial. They really aren't. They're pretty much an accepted consensus among decent players. Yet you come in here and not only do you not know these builds, but you demand that we provide you with educational material and proof that this is indeed the case. These is a certain base level of knowledge required for a discussion to be possible. You can't discuss astronomy with someone demanding proof that the Earth is round. Hell, I didn't even ask for multiple replays. Ambiguous terminology is ambiguous. I'm aware that the very early 1-2 marauders, 3-5 marines, 0-3 scv push is popular. I'm also aware that it's not by any means a kill move. 1 gate expand is greedy, and everyone has known that for a very long time. But again, if you're going to make extraordinary claims and not back them with evidence, there's no real reason people shouldn't dismiss you. You're not arguing, you're venting. As for not being able to hold a 1-1-1 without a 1-gate expand, I'm afraid that is simply not so certain as the earth being round. It's conventional wisdom that you should expand against a 1-1-1, but that doesn't mean it can't be held, or that no 1-base composition can beat it. I can just as easily assert that I have seen Protoss beat 1-1-1's with 2 gate expo's, 2 gate robo's, etc. (and I'm fairly certain I have), but without a replay (which I don't have), there's no reason for my unsupported assertions to have any weight. If you have more than one gateway and Terran does early 2-rax pressure, it is not going to kill you (or even take a lead, but that depends on the micro of both players). And if you tell me there is no build besides 1gate expand that can hold a 1-1-1, I simply don't believe you. And if Protoss players cry to Blizzard that they can't find any response besides going 1-gate expand or Nexus first and taking an absurd economic lead to beat 1-1-1, Blizzard can and should tell them that patching the game is not a substitute for Protoss players having to come up with creative builds in response to new challenges. "Terran has too many options" is not a substitute for supporting evidence. "You don't have enough experience with the game" is not a substitute for supporting evidence. "I want to be able to do greedy builds without being punished" is not a substitute for supporting evidence.
For the record, I'm not claiming that a Protoss NEEDS a 1 Gate FE to hold 1/1/1. It has been held with later expands (I'll help you out with 2 Gate expand - that's what Creator opened with when he beat MVP's 1/1/1 on Crossfire). Still, it's really hard. Players have 1 Gate FEd, and still lost to the 1/1/1. It is by no means a BO counter, just a way to get a fighting chance. Any later expansion just puts the Protoss behind the all-ining Terran, because depending on the attack timing, it barely even pays for itself. The most convincing 1/1/1 defenses followed a 1 Gate FE (Huk vs Thorzain and PuMa vs Mana in EG Masters' Cup).
I am also going to clarify what I mean by "2 rax" for your convenience. The Terran gets a reactor first after 1 Marine, a second rax at 16 supply, which immediately starts a techlab upon completion, and then a Marauder and CS the moment it's done. Pushes out with 5-6 Marines, 1 Marauder and 5-6 scvs while rallying both raxes to the opponent's base. I think I've only seen a 1 Gate FE hold this once (Strelok vs Naniwa at Battle.Net EU Invitational), and only because the Terran decided to help the Protoss with the worst positioned bunker ever. You can even substitute a straight up marine/tank push with siege mode, which will kill a 1 Gate FE 100% of the time.
Now, you might say "well, you can 2 Gate Robo FE, and be ok vs both 2 rax and 1/1/1". That is true to a certain extent. Holding 1/1/1 with a Nexus started after the 6 min mark is very hard, but it's doable - although it doesn't happen very often. However, what about a 1 rax reactor CC? Watch Bomber vs Puzzle in GSL October group stages, where Puzzle does a 2 Gate Robo FE after seeing gas from Bomber, Bomber pulls workers out of gas and throws down a CC, and later on he's 30 supply ahead in the midgame without anything happening. Needless to say, Puzzle gets rolled without really making any mistakes - he loses because of the scouting problem that I'm describing.
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On October 13 2011 16:27 ypslala wrote:
emp is a huge problem in pvt and the ability for toss to expand safe against z and t. scouting for terran and strenghth of drops are not the problems imho.
my suggestion for the emp problem:
- make it more expensive and a slower tech. at least similar to storm.
- take away the shield drain( why the double attack for toss units? energy plus shield attack)
- make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that.
- HT faster movement speed? yes. without khaldarin, a faster movement speed makes sense.
- give back the khaldarin amulett. it was away for toss to come back when falling behind--> used defensive.
ability for saver expand. give toss more money.
- my idea would be: make stalker 100/50.
- starting energy for nexus 25
"make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that."
Not really, ofc its ONE counter, but you forget about tvz, EMP against Infestor is huge.
Yea, EMP does way more damage (just like fungal) than storms will ever do.
I like the idea of starting 25 energy on the nexus tho.
And Khaldarin Amulett wasn't overpowered, i mean look at the race statistics overall.
TvP is 67 % for Terran ... that just a joke ...
ZvP is 60 % for Zerg ... you always have to play defensive macro games unless you do a 2 base all in
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On October 13 2011 21:41 NexCa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 16:27 ypslala wrote:
emp is a huge problem in pvt and the ability for toss to expand safe against z and t. scouting for terran and strenghth of drops are not the problems imho.
my suggestion for the emp problem:
- make it more expensive and a slower tech. at least similar to storm.
- take away the shield drain( why the double attack for toss units? energy plus shield attack)
- make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that.
- HT faster movement speed? yes. without khaldarin, a faster movement speed makes sense.
- give back the khaldarin amulett. it was away for toss to come back when falling behind--> used defensive.
ability for saver expand. give toss more money.
- my idea would be: make stalker 100/50.
- starting energy for nexus 25 "make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that." Not really, ofc its ONE counter, but you forget about tvz, EMP against Infestor is huge. Yea, EMP does way more damage (just like fungal) than storms will ever do. I like the idea of starting 25 energy on the nexus tho. And Khaldarin Amulett wasn't overpowered, i mean look at the race statistics overall. TvP is 67 % for Terran ... that just a joke ... ZvP is 60 % for Zerg ... you always have to play defensive macro games unless you do a 2 base all in
Where are those stats from? because its been a significant period of time since the amulet was removed, so the percentages will be skewed if you're just taking overall stats into account.
I want to add that personally, I think if KA was removed, Pathogen Glands and Mobius Reactor should be as well. I know that with HTs, it was a matter of an instant warp into damage, while you have to wait for your ghost/infestor to come out, but it still doesn't change the fact that as soon as you have the unit, you can cast your spell of choice, while the Protoss can't
One suggestion for the EMP I have though, is not to remove the shield damage, but to half it. At least then, the Immortal still has some shields instead of not having a critical part of its tanking out of the way, or the EMP carpet will be less effective on the high tech units (it would then take 7 EMPs to get rid of an archon's shield, as opposed to 4 it is now)
That, or have a mechanic that makes a unit immune to a second EMP effect for a few seconds. Storms and fungals don't stack, so EMPs shouldn't either
Thoughts?
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On October 13 2011 12:36 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:15 pezit wrote:On October 13 2011 11:09 owenowens33 wrote:
I know that this has probably been discussed already, but I wanted to hear any new ideas about this problem.
Complaint
Problem: Ghost vs High Templar micro is incredibly unbalanced, making 200 v 200 battles in PvT a joke.
- Lets just start with the High Templar and Ghost raw stats, including their spells and abilities
-- High Templar
- Movement speed is 1.875, 80 total hp
- Has storm, which costs 75 energy and does 80 damage over time (4 sec)
- Can feedback, costs 50 which can kill ghosts one at a time.
- Both abilities have 9 range
-- Ghosts
- Movement speed is 2.25, 100 total hp
- Has snipe, 25 energy and range 10, can be queued to instacast 2x.
- Has emp, which does 100 instant damage and also removes cast energy. Also reveals cloaked units (observer)
- Also can be cloaked
- Looking at just this, its easy to see how if both players are focusing on microing their units, the terran player will always beat out the protoss player. If the templar are clumped, then 1 or 2 emps will render them useless. If they are spread, then snipe will kill them before the protoss can feedback the ghosts. In addition, ghosts can poke in and out much faster due to movement speed and cloak. If the templar are behind the colossi, or behind the ranged units, then the ghost can just emp the entire protoss army and engage.
- Also, even if the HT live to storm, the damage does is significantly less than what a blanket EMP does to the protoss army. Storm does damage over time, which is nullified to some extent by medivacs and stimmed bioball micro. The protoss cannot afford to feedback all of the medivacs, for they need energy to feedback ghosts and storm the bioball. Meanwhile, ghosts can blanket emp the entire protoss army and do 100 instant damage to all units while also removing Templar energy.
- Another problem is detection. Terran currently has 3 forms of MOBILE detection. Scans, Ravens, and EMPs. Scans have huge range, and while they trade off in terms of mule production, 200 v 200 battles usually occur in the lategame where mules are not as valuable. Ravens have utility in themselves with PDD, which can sap stalker dps when facing high Viking counts. Emps, ofcourse are already installed into the lategame Terran army with ghosts.
Protoss, on the other hand, has 1 form of mobile detection, the observer. The observer also has the disadvantage of having to be built from the Robo, which stalls colossus production. So when an observer dies, another must be built. On the other hand, emps and scans can be casted multiple times instantly without taking up any supply.
- All of these problems lead to inevitable outcome in which the terran either emps or snipes the templars, and is then free to emp the protoss army. Stim also prevents any retreat for the protoss army, and sentry forcefields are also depleted by emps.
Solution: Make the ranges equal for both respective casters. Also, im not sure why emp HAS to reveal cloaked units, especially since terran has so many other forms of detection.
There might be another solution that is far more elegant, im open to any suggestions.
Side Effects:...200 v 200 battles won't be just a formality in late game PvT
The high range of vikings makes it extremely easy for the terran to snipe observers lategame as well, and once you've done that you'll hit those EMP's and snipes without any worries. Oh so yeah, Terran will have an endless amount of MMM + Ghosts + Vikings with full upgrades? Yeah Vikings can snipe observers, but what are your stalkers for? If any protoss has an observer floating directly over a Terrans army, well thats just simply a bad protoss who dosen't know how to utilise the unit properly. Do you have any idea how expesive and time consuming it is for Terran to get ghosts let alone vikings as well in an MMM ball?[ Also, keep in mind Protoss can reinforce their units heaps more quicker then what terran can, you have proxy pylons ffs. I swear some people think Terran has an endless amount of money/production buildings sometimes. Also remember, Storm bloody kills... EMP dosen't! If you have an observer + blink stalkers + proxy pylon... In some respect, thats pretty much a medivac drop. Oh but thats right, somehow the with the Terrans endless amount of money + production, he will have tanks sitting in his base sieged up and defending. I just wish people could get it thorugh their heads that Terran is no where near the most flexible race! If anything, it's Zerg. I've already said it before and I'll say it again, "Zerg has upgrades that not only upgrade 1 unit but almost pretty much all units, they can transition more quickly and effectively then what Terran or Protoss can, not to mention... when it comes down to the crunch, they can reinforce units more quicker then T and P and just continously throw crap at you. Whilst they also have the most annoying harass unit in the game! MUTALISK! Oh but thats right, a Terran T1 unit (marine) can smash Mutas...... "What the hell are you doing flying your mutas over marines in the first place? It's not like it's hard to avoid marines lol! And guess what, if Terran pushes into your base with marines and all you have is mutas for the direct engagement, well thats your own damn fault for making too many. Zerg is meant to be the "reactionary race."
The parts in bold are all just absurd. Here is why:
You are saying how expensive it is for terran to get ghost and viking, after MMM. Well, you already have the reactored starport for medevacs. So you have to spend what 75 gas per viking to hard counter to colossus. What does a colossus cost? Well assuming the protoss has a robo to get obs in the first place. It's then 200/200 for a robo support bay, 200/200 for colossus range and 300/200 per colossus. That's 700/600 for the 1st colossus with range, let's see 5 vikings costs 750/375. You also mentioned ghosts, to get storm (not counting twilight) it is 150/200 for a templar archives, 200/200 for storm and 50/150 per HT, for a total of 400/550 for one HT with storm. By comparison you can spend 50 gas on a ghost academy, and 200/100 for a ghost who is born with snipe and emp, both of which counter templar, emp also hard counters sentries, immortals, archons, stalkers, motherships, phoenix, void rays and does 20 more damage than storm, which can't be dodged once cast and emp also detects cloaked units. The ghost can also get cloaks, nukes, energy upgrades and gets healed by medevacs. Let's talk some more about cost, the cost and time to get just charge, is 150/100 for twilight and 200/200 for charge, 350/300 total. As terran you can get a 50/25 tech lab,100/100 stim, 100/100 combat shields, and 50/50 concussive for a total of 300/275. Oh, and you'll have it all sooner. Also, consider that sentries cost 50/100, for a protoss to get detection is another 250/100 + 25/75 (robo + obs). Why does toss need sentries? Because an unstimmed marine that costs 50 minerals has higher dps than a stalker that costs 125/50, a zealot without charge can never hit a marauder with concussive (unless he's trapped by FF) and terran get's medevacs out before a protoss who also expanded can get any AOE out. (While I'm talking about AOE damage protoss has storm, colossus, and archons, terran has hellions, tanks, emp, nukes, seeker missiles, and thors anti air.) The only other options a protoss can get out that early, voidray or immortal, get hard countered by marines. So were stuck spending 50/100 on several sentries so we can not die to any kind of mm timing push that hits. About that detection, if a terran makes a cloaked banshee rush vs a protoss without obs, they might as well GG. If a protoss makes a DT rush vs a terran who didn't make a starport for raven, an engineering bay, or ghosts for emp well that's okay, you have scans, you can close your wall and repair endlessly while you build engineering and you natural can liftoff. You might take some damage but in no way is it GG unless you make some serious blunder.
Terran not as flexible you say? If a terran breaks my natural the game is over I'm dead, If I do a similar rush to a terran who plays greedy as hell and doesn't make enough bunkers he can lift off, use repair, take minimal losses and not even be behind. Any base trade scenario is drastically in terrans favor (because of liftoff and medevacs) You get detection at 15 supply, which also gives you mules (which add a ton of flexibility to terran and make gold bases op for terran) Protoss is forced into a tech tree for detection. You can wall in with supply depots which lower to serve this function (the way protoss has to wall in vs zerg can bite protoss in the ass trying to defend vs muta!) You can make 1 tech lab and produce any of the following units in the first 7 minutes of the game, marine, marauder, reaper, ghost, hellion, tank, thor, medevac, viking, raven, banshee. Does that seem flexible to you because it sure as hell does to me? Oh, and you get bunkers that you can sell off at anytime, and don't require any tech to do this. Protoss has to spend 150 on a forge, and 150 per cannon which we can't repair or sell and has WAY less dps than a bunker of marines for only 300 total cost. You also have the options of PF's to provide easily defended later expansions, sensor towers for map vision, and every unit you have (except maybe BC's) are viable in every matchup.
Most annoying harass in the game, MUTALISK, you say? I'd love to hear how many protoss and zergs have lost games to cloakshees, hellions, MM drops that they knew were coming but couldn't prevent the damage because of the mobility of all of these units. Here's one for you, name a terran unit that can't be exploited for amazing harass? BC's are all I could think of, because every other unit can be used for devastating harass in many situations.
Truthfully, terran hasn't even hardly explored BC's, Ravens, ghosts (other than to counter spell casters) Mech (except goody and jinro), sensor towers, half the engineering upgrades, because they haven't had too. Everything else is so damn good they haven't been forced to explore the depth of their race nearly as much as zerg and protoss have. Seriously, you play terran how many of the tech lab upgrades on a starport can you think of by name, cost and affect? Same for the 6 upgrades at the engineering bay. Terran has a bunch of flexibility they haven't even had to explore.
These are the facts about Terran and a lot of what I've said here have a lot to do with why they have been dominating SC2 since release. If you think everything I've said here sounds fair and balanced, than it's not even worth the time trying to convince you otherwise, you live in a fantasy world.
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I would love to see ghosts patched in the next patch, just to see how it balances the game.
The question is, do they need to ghost more? Lower the affect of emp? Raise the energy cost of emp? Lower the radius of emp? Remove cloaking from ghosts? Lower ghosts movement speed?
Thoughts?
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On October 13 2011 22:35 UnholyRai wrote:
I would love to see ghosts patched in the next patch, just to see how it balances the game.
The question is, do they need to ghost more? Lower the affect of emp? Raise the energy cost of emp? Lower the radius of emp? Remove cloaking from ghosts? Lower ghosts movement speed?
Thoughts?
EMP is the main problem with ghosts. I don't see a lot of nuke/cloak/snipe problems being brought up. With EMP, ghosts are OP. Give it to ravens and invent some other ability for ghosts instead (irradiate or something?)
Another idea is that a good deal of the EMP problem is that it's very one-sided against protoss (affecting sheilds as it does). I say if it absolutely has to drain shields, it should have some other non-protoss affecting component too. Have it lockdown a terran mech unit when it hits a terran ball, maybe? Then it won't seem like Bowder is out for protoss blood so much at any rate.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On October 13 2011 22:35 UnholyRai wrote:
I would love to see ghosts patched in the next patch, just to see how it balances the game.
The question is, do they need to ghost more? Lower the affect of emp? Raise the energy cost of emp? Lower the radius of emp? Remove cloaking from ghosts? Lower ghosts movement speed?
Thoughts?
I said it 2 posts above yours, but I think that either they should halve the shield removal (so 50 instead of 100) or make it so that getting EMPed means the unit is immune to further EMPs for a few seconds, so that you can't have stacking EMPs
Or both
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EMP would be fine if it was dodgeable. Instant AOE is very boring.
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On October 13 2011 22:35 UnholyRai wrote:
I would love to see ghosts patched in the next patch, just to see how it balances the game.
The question is, do they need to ghost more? Lower the affect of emp? Raise the energy cost of emp? Lower the radius of emp? Remove cloaking from ghosts? Lower ghosts movement speed?
Thoughts?
EMP doing instant 100 shield damage is game breaking. I think its effect on shields needs to be overwhelmingly nerfed. I think most people (protosses) would be willing to trade full energy drain for zero shield damage.
But snipe is a serious issue in ZvT, I think that damage/energy needs to go down significantly. Energy cost of snipe rounds must go up. The best solution may be an increase in damage per shot to lessen the nerf, but right now it does too much damage at too small a cost at too great a range.
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On October 13 2011 21:59 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 21:41 NexCa wrote:On October 13 2011 16:27 ypslala wrote:
emp is a huge problem in pvt and the ability for toss to expand safe against z and t. scouting for terran and strenghth of drops are not the problems imho.
my suggestion for the emp problem:
- make it more expensive and a slower tech. at least similar to storm.
- take away the shield drain( why the double attack for toss units? energy plus shield attack)
- make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that.
- HT faster movement speed? yes. without khaldarin, a faster movement speed makes sense.
- give back the khaldarin amulett. it was away for toss to come back when falling behind--> used defensive.
ability for saver expand. give toss more money.
- my idea would be: make stalker 100/50.
- starting energy for nexus 25 "make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that." Not really, ofc its ONE counter, but you forget about tvz, EMP against Infestor is huge. Yea, EMP does way more damage (just like fungal) than storms will ever do. I like the idea of starting 25 energy on the nexus tho. And Khaldarin Amulett wasn't overpowered, i mean look at the race statistics overall. TvP is 67 % for Terran ... that just a joke ... ZvP is 60 % for Zerg ... you always have to play defensive macro games unless you do a 2 base all in Where are those stats from? because its been a significant period of time since the amulet was removed, so the percentages will be skewed if you're just taking overall stats into account. I want to add that personally, I think if KA was removed, Pathogen Glands and Mobius Reactor should be as well. I know that with HTs, it was a matter of an instant warp into damage, while you have to wait for your ghost/infestor to come out, but it still doesn't change the fact that as soon as you have the unit, you can cast your spell of choice, while the Protoss can't One suggestion for the EMP I have though, is not to remove the shield damage, but to half it. At least then, the Immortal still has some shields instead of not having a critical part of its tanking out of the way, or the EMP carpet will be less effective on the high tech units (it would then take 7 EMPs to get rid of an archon's shield, as opposed to 4 it is now) That, or have a mechanic that makes a unit immune to a second EMP effect for a few seconds. Storms and fungals don't stack, so EMPs shouldn't either Thoughts?
I don't know how lessening the shield damage on EMP really does anything to help in the grand picture of the things. The reality is that 4-5 ghosts can blow their load of EMP onto your entire army and unless they are incredibly awful at micro, then you're going to lose all of your shields regardless of the amount that a single EMP drains.
I've never seen a Terran just use one EMP and then stop. Army spread or not, they can just dump a ton of EMP's out and then proceed to stim up and roll over you like Hulk Hogan punching a newborn baby in the face.
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On October 14 2011 00:26 turamn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 21:59 Hassybaby wrote:On October 13 2011 21:41 NexCa wrote:On October 13 2011 16:27 ypslala wrote:
emp is a huge problem in pvt and the ability for toss to expand safe against z and t. scouting for terran and strenghth of drops are not the problems imho.
my suggestion for the emp problem:
- make it more expensive and a slower tech. at least similar to storm.
- take away the shield drain( why the double attack for toss units? energy plus shield attack)
- make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that.
- HT faster movement speed? yes. without khaldarin, a faster movement speed makes sense.
- give back the khaldarin amulett. it was away for toss to come back when falling behind--> used defensive.
ability for saver expand. give toss more money.
- my idea would be: make stalker 100/50.
- starting energy for nexus 25 "make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that." Not really, ofc its ONE counter, but you forget about tvz, EMP against Infestor is huge. Yea, EMP does way more damage (just like fungal) than storms will ever do. I like the idea of starting 25 energy on the nexus tho. And Khaldarin Amulett wasn't overpowered, i mean look at the race statistics overall. TvP is 67 % for Terran ... that just a joke ... ZvP is 60 % for Zerg ... you always have to play defensive macro games unless you do a 2 base all in Where are those stats from? because its been a significant period of time since the amulet was removed, so the percentages will be skewed if you're just taking overall stats into account. I want to add that personally, I think if KA was removed, Pathogen Glands and Mobius Reactor should be as well. I know that with HTs, it was a matter of an instant warp into damage, while you have to wait for your ghost/infestor to come out, but it still doesn't change the fact that as soon as you have the unit, you can cast your spell of choice, while the Protoss can't One suggestion for the EMP I have though, is not to remove the shield damage, but to half it. At least then, the Immortal still has some shields instead of not having a critical part of its tanking out of the way, or the EMP carpet will be less effective on the high tech units (it would then take 7 EMPs to get rid of an archon's shield, as opposed to 4 it is now) That, or have a mechanic that makes a unit immune to a second EMP effect for a few seconds. Storms and fungals don't stack, so EMPs shouldn't either Thoughts? I don't know how lessening the shield damage on EMP really does anything to help in the grand picture of the things. The reality is that 4-5 ghosts can blow their load of EMP onto your entire army and unless they are incredibly awful at micro, then you're going to lose all of your shields regardless of the amount that a single EMP drains. I've never seen a Terran just use one EMP and then stop. Army spread or not, they can just dump a ton of EMP's out and then proceed to stim up and roll over you like Hulk Hogan punching a newborn baby in the face.
I agree, the only real way to solve this problem will be to wait until HotS. Then Blizzard can move EMP to the raven and give the ghost lockdown, which would be so much more interesting as they would be able to deal with threats like colossi. It would also create a fun micro dynamic between HTs and ghosts with snipe and feedback. And with EMP on the raven, it would make EMP higher tech and on a more costly, less massable unit, which would help reduce the effectiveness of mass EMPs vs protoss. I would much rather make aiming EMPs important, rather than what it is now: emptying all of your 8 ghosts' energy all over the toss army and stimming in. The way it is now just isn't fun to watch at all.
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On October 14 2011 00:46 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 00:26 turamn wrote:On October 13 2011 21:59 Hassybaby wrote:On October 13 2011 21:41 NexCa wrote:On October 13 2011 16:27 ypslala wrote:
emp is a huge problem in pvt and the ability for toss to expand safe against z and t. scouting for terran and strenghth of drops are not the problems imho.
my suggestion for the emp problem:
- make it more expensive and a slower tech. at least similar to storm.
- take away the shield drain( why the double attack for toss units? energy plus shield attack)
- make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that.
- HT faster movement speed? yes. without khaldarin, a faster movement speed makes sense.
- give back the khaldarin amulett. it was away for toss to come back when falling behind--> used defensive.
ability for saver expand. give toss more money.
- my idea would be: make stalker 100/50.
- starting energy for nexus 25 "make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that." Not really, ofc its ONE counter, but you forget about tvz, EMP against Infestor is huge. Yea, EMP does way more damage (just like fungal) than storms will ever do. I like the idea of starting 25 energy on the nexus tho. And Khaldarin Amulett wasn't overpowered, i mean look at the race statistics overall. TvP is 67 % for Terran ... that just a joke ... ZvP is 60 % for Zerg ... you always have to play defensive macro games unless you do a 2 base all in Where are those stats from? because its been a significant period of time since the amulet was removed, so the percentages will be skewed if you're just taking overall stats into account. I want to add that personally, I think if KA was removed, Pathogen Glands and Mobius Reactor should be as well. I know that with HTs, it was a matter of an instant warp into damage, while you have to wait for your ghost/infestor to come out, but it still doesn't change the fact that as soon as you have the unit, you can cast your spell of choice, while the Protoss can't One suggestion for the EMP I have though, is not to remove the shield damage, but to half it. At least then, the Immortal still has some shields instead of not having a critical part of its tanking out of the way, or the EMP carpet will be less effective on the high tech units (it would then take 7 EMPs to get rid of an archon's shield, as opposed to 4 it is now) That, or have a mechanic that makes a unit immune to a second EMP effect for a few seconds. Storms and fungals don't stack, so EMPs shouldn't either Thoughts? I don't know how lessening the shield damage on EMP really does anything to help in the grand picture of the things. The reality is that 4-5 ghosts can blow their load of EMP onto your entire army and unless they are incredibly awful at micro, then you're going to lose all of your shields regardless of the amount that a single EMP drains. I've never seen a Terran just use one EMP and then stop. Army spread or not, they can just dump a ton of EMP's out and then proceed to stim up and roll over you like Hulk Hogan punching a newborn baby in the face. I agree, the only real way to solve this problem will be to wait until HotS. Then Blizzard can move EMP to the raven and give the ghost lockdown, which would be so much more interesting as they would be able to deal with threats like colossi. It would also create a fun micro dynamic between HTs and ghosts with snipe and feedback. And with EMP on the raven, it would make EMP higher tech and on a more costly, less massable unit, which would help reduce the effectiveness of mass EMPs vs protoss. I would much rather make aiming EMPs important, rather than what it is now: emptying all of your 8 ghosts' energy all over the toss army and stimming in. The way it is now just isn't fun to watch at all.
Why do Ghosts need lockdown? Awesome dps v. light, nukes, snipe, and cloak isn't enough utility for one unit?
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On October 14 2011 01:25 Wren wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 00:46 Fig wrote:On October 14 2011 00:26 turamn wrote:On October 13 2011 21:59 Hassybaby wrote:On October 13 2011 21:41 NexCa wrote:On October 13 2011 16:27 ypslala wrote:
emp is a huge problem in pvt and the ability for toss to expand safe against z and t. scouting for terran and strenghth of drops are not the problems imho.
my suggestion for the emp problem:
- make it more expensive and a slower tech. at least similar to storm.
- take away the shield drain( why the double attack for toss units? energy plus shield attack)
- make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that.
- HT faster movement speed? yes. without khaldarin, a faster movement speed makes sense.
- give back the khaldarin amulett. it was away for toss to come back when falling behind--> used defensive.
ability for saver expand. give toss more money.
- my idea would be: make stalker 100/50.
- starting energy for nexus 25 "make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that." Not really, ofc its ONE counter, but you forget about tvz, EMP against Infestor is huge. Yea, EMP does way more damage (just like fungal) than storms will ever do. I like the idea of starting 25 energy on the nexus tho. And Khaldarin Amulett wasn't overpowered, i mean look at the race statistics overall. TvP is 67 % for Terran ... that just a joke ... ZvP is 60 % for Zerg ... you always have to play defensive macro games unless you do a 2 base all in Where are those stats from? because its been a significant period of time since the amulet was removed, so the percentages will be skewed if you're just taking overall stats into account. I want to add that personally, I think if KA was removed, Pathogen Glands and Mobius Reactor should be as well. I know that with HTs, it was a matter of an instant warp into damage, while you have to wait for your ghost/infestor to come out, but it still doesn't change the fact that as soon as you have the unit, you can cast your spell of choice, while the Protoss can't One suggestion for the EMP I have though, is not to remove the shield damage, but to half it. At least then, the Immortal still has some shields instead of not having a critical part of its tanking out of the way, or the EMP carpet will be less effective on the high tech units (it would then take 7 EMPs to get rid of an archon's shield, as opposed to 4 it is now) That, or have a mechanic that makes a unit immune to a second EMP effect for a few seconds. Storms and fungals don't stack, so EMPs shouldn't either Thoughts? I don't know how lessening the shield damage on EMP really does anything to help in the grand picture of the things. The reality is that 4-5 ghosts can blow their load of EMP onto your entire army and unless they are incredibly awful at micro, then you're going to lose all of your shields regardless of the amount that a single EMP drains. I've never seen a Terran just use one EMP and then stop. Army spread or not, they can just dump a ton of EMP's out and then proceed to stim up and roll over you like Hulk Hogan punching a newborn baby in the face. I agree, the only real way to solve this problem will be to wait until HotS. Then Blizzard can move EMP to the raven and give the ghost lockdown, which would be so much more interesting as they would be able to deal with threats like colossi. It would also create a fun micro dynamic between HTs and ghosts with snipe and feedback. And with EMP on the raven, it would make EMP higher tech and on a more costly, less massable unit, which would help reduce the effectiveness of mass EMPs vs protoss. I would much rather make aiming EMPs important, rather than what it is now: emptying all of your 8 ghosts' energy all over the toss army and stimming in. The way it is now just isn't fun to watch at all. Why do Ghosts need lockdown? Awesome dps v. light, nukes, snipe, and cloak isn't enough utility for one unit?
haha to appease the terrans of course.
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Lol as much as EMP is strong on the ghost, I think moving EMP to the raven would be silly. Could you imagine a 1/1/1 but with EMP+PDD? Ugh. Maybe if it was a research-- you know that thing you do that lets you use spells/abilities?
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On October 14 2011 01:30 Alejandrisha wrote:
Lol as much as EMP is strong on the ghost, I think moving EMP to the raven would be silly. Could you imagine a 1/1/1 but with EMP+PDD? Ugh. Maybe if it was a research-- you know that thing you do that lets you use spells/abilities?
O I agree, it definitely should be a research. Forgot about that part. Too many advantages to keep track of when talking about EMP.
Edit: I just don't think making it a research for the ghost would change much about the way late game PvT plays out atm. It would just slow down those early ghost timings.
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On October 14 2011 01:34 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 01:30 Alejandrisha wrote:
Lol as much as EMP is strong on the ghost, I think moving EMP to the raven would be silly. Could you imagine a 1/1/1 but with EMP+PDD? Ugh. Maybe if it was a research-- you know that thing you do that lets you use spells/abilities? O I agree, it definitely should be a research. Forgot about that part. Too many advantages to keep track of when talking about EMP. Edit: I just don't think making it a research for the ghost would change much about the way late game PvT plays out atm. It would just slow down those early ghost timings.
Yeah but it's just an implicit cost that needs to be factored in. Take protoss units for instance; out of the box, their units don't really do anything. You need to get every unit's upgrade for them to actually hit anything without vaporizing immediately in the mid game- blink, charge, storm, range are all upgrades that are needed to transition into fighting bio with any effect with the units they affect. Compare that to bio where you need 3 upgrades which are all available at the 5 minute mark and take effect very early on. I think it's more of a game design issue than balance.
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On October 14 2011 01:43 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 01:34 Fig wrote:On October 14 2011 01:30 Alejandrisha wrote:
Lol as much as EMP is strong on the ghost, I think moving EMP to the raven would be silly. Could you imagine a 1/1/1 but with EMP+PDD? Ugh. Maybe if it was a research-- you know that thing you do that lets you use spells/abilities? O I agree, it definitely should be a research. Forgot about that part. Too many advantages to keep track of when talking about EMP. Edit: I just don't think making it a research for the ghost would change much about the way late game PvT plays out atm. It would just slow down those early ghost timings. Yeah but it's just an implicit cost that needs to be factored in. Take protoss units for instance; out of the box, their units don't really do anything. You need to get every unit's upgrade for them to actually hit anything without vaporizing immediately in the mid game- blink, charge, storm, range are all upgrades that are needed to transition into fighting bio with any effect with the units they affect. Compare that to bio where you need 3 upgrades which are all available at the 5 minute mark and take effect very early on. I think it's more of a game design issue than balance.
That's a good way to think about it. Maybe they should just make the charge upgrade cheaper and quicker to research. Because you're right, if terran hits before charge finishes it's just game over.
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On October 14 2011 01:47 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 01:43 Alejandrisha wrote:On October 14 2011 01:34 Fig wrote:On October 14 2011 01:30 Alejandrisha wrote:
Lol as much as EMP is strong on the ghost, I think moving EMP to the raven would be silly. Could you imagine a 1/1/1 but with EMP+PDD? Ugh. Maybe if it was a research-- you know that thing you do that lets you use spells/abilities? O I agree, it definitely should be a research. Forgot about that part. Too many advantages to keep track of when talking about EMP. Edit: I just don't think making it a research for the ghost would change much about the way late game PvT plays out atm. It would just slow down those early ghost timings. Yeah but it's just an implicit cost that needs to be factored in. Take protoss units for instance; out of the box, their units don't really do anything. You need to get every unit's upgrade for them to actually hit anything without vaporizing immediately in the mid game- blink, charge, storm, range are all upgrades that are needed to transition into fighting bio with any effect with the units they affect. Compare that to bio where you need 3 upgrades which are all available at the 5 minute mark and take effect very early on. I think it's more of a game design issue than balance. That's a good way to think about it. Maybe they should just make the charge upgrade cheaper and quicker to research. Because you're right, if terran hits before charge finishes it's just game over.
IDK what the correct fix would be, but the way it is now, charge is a very expensive upgrade in terms of time, and a very important one if you are playing a style that actually uses it enough to make it cost-effective for the mins/gas you spend on it. And that sets you up very easily for Terran timings because if you are using said style, your units are pretty bad until the second the upgrade completes--again, more game design and stylistic than a balance issue.
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I'm getting sick of immortal busts, I want strike cannons with cool down back. Maybe increase the research time by 20-30 seconds to prevent 2 thor pushs. Thors in TvP feel useless, because every tech path kills them (high templars, non clumped voids, and immortals.) At least with strike cannons, they were viable against robotics builds.
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On October 14 2011 02:02 boredrex wrote:
I'm getting sick of immortal busts, I want strike cannons with cool down back. Maybe increase the research time by 20-30 seconds to prevent 2 thor pushs. Thors in TvP feel useless, because every tech path kills them (high templars, non clumped voids, and immortals.) At least with strike cannons, they were viable against robotics builds.
Woah you can't make any t3 unit you want in every situation? That sucks.
Strike cannons with or without cool downs enable thors to counter immortals.. 6 thors would kill 6 immortals with the immortals doing no damage whatsoever with the range. This wasn't they way blizz intended the mechanics to work.
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EPT
