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On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
Well, better late than never, I guess. Here it goes.
About your argument that a zerg with 30 drones lost before the 15 minute mark always loses, while the same is not true for terran, I don't know what to say. It is clear to me we are playing a different game, because in the game I play, if terran loses 10 workers, he is behind about 15 workers. And in the game I play that means terran is 5 minutes from being totally crushed. As for your other points, here it goes.
After reading your entire post, you seem to have trouble with this concept called Constant Worker Production. The metrics for terran producing scvs off of 1 base is 24 workers by 6 minutes (when you should have a second cc up) and then 6 scvs every 51 seconds, this means 14 every 2 minutes. You should have 52 workers plus 2 mules by the 10 minute mark if you go 21 cc. If the zerg doesn't make any extra units or buildings they will have 70 drones by 9 minutes. You can greatly delay this by harassing some time into that (forcing them to make lings/spines/evo chamber/etc) and then if you push at 9 minutes again your worker difference should be nominal (consider that you have the equivalent of 10 workers from your mules, which if you NEED to scout, you can sac a mule to scan). This is more or less standard, if you went for a quick third cc (which I think will be the future of T) then you will never be behind on eco.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
Zerglings and mutas and tumors are fragile units...Marines are also fragiie, of course I am not going to keep a turret with a Thor. The only real choice I have is a marine/marauder/reaper. However, upon being spotted, the marine/reaper/marauder will die to the appropriate amount of lings just a couple of seconds later. What I am getting at is the speed with which zerg can occupy towers which are a key source of scouting.
I am going to assume that the thor reference is from a prior post. Mutas cost gas, which is roughly 3x the value of minerals makes mutas not a viable unit for fighting marines, not even close. As far as thor/x unit comps, outside of actual mech which is much later, I would imagine what you are talking about is an all-in and if the opponent scouted the all-in and made enough lings to counter it then you SHOULD LOSE, if he didn't scout it (and made those units) then he is bad. You are right, lings are great at tower guards.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
Creep tumors are invisible, require scan/raven to destroy and can be rebuilt immediately. Actually, as far as I can see, for the cost of 75 energy (3 tumors), in 5 minutes a good zerg should be able to have PERMANENT vision over the entire map. Compare that to terran, who has to use 50 energy (and is 30 workers behind, mind you) in order to have zerg non-guaranteed (cause you don't know where they are) and TEMPORARY (cause it expires) army movement information, you will know what I mean.
where do you get 30 workers? Do you forget cc's? no, it's guaranteed... the creep tumors spread 12 matrices away, your scan is like 25 or more. Army movement information? As a Terran, you force the play, your push makes the zerg react to you, if you play the mu enough you will know based on map positioning what the zerg should do if they are good, if they do something else then your correct play should punish them anyway.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
Mutas also deny every prodding/forward scouting with marines if marines are not in the proper amount. Of course, if marines are the proper amount to deal with mutas, they can't actually go deal with the mutas, as somewhere up front there lies a green mass of goo that is just waiting for you to clump up and be away from siege tanks. Of course, zerg sometimes doesn't bother to engage you in the middle, and just goes with his 20 mutas and kills all the workers you have in any base. I have to admit that I always loved the bias against terran when casters are super silent while 20+ scvs and 5 turrets go down in a second, but when a muta dies to those turrets, its ''OOOH he lost a muta'..
It seems that you don't know the value of gas over minerals.... If you want to poke and prode with marines then it is not the mutas that will be your problem, it will be the ling/baneling force. If you have equal marines to mutas anywhere more or equal to 10 then it is horrible for the zerg to engage you, if you are worried about making those marines live then you should just poke out far enough so that you can stim back to the tank line. if you want to do a poke/prod then expect to lose those marines but try and do some eco damage. Think about the cost of the marines compared to the cost of the mass of goo that you are complaining about. 20 mutas should not kill all your workers, if they do than you have something to improve on. turrets are extremely powerful and trading 75 minerals and TIME!!! is totally worth it. Make enough turrets to deter the zerg and be quick enough with your rallying marines and this harass won't be worth it when you are killing their main mining base.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
Overlords' spewiing creep ability, combined with a burrowed zergling can really hold your expansions timings by 30+ seconds, and zerg will ACTUALLY know you are expanding. Placing a marine over a zer'gs possible expansion will just give you a second or two delay at best, while the juicy marine is being eaten up by a pack of fragile lings. The proposition of buidling rax and flying them around seems really nice, but somehow the idea of being behind in workers AND occupying one of my not-so-many workers for 65 seconds doesn't seem that appealing to me. So no, thanks, I will not mass produce rax in order to scout.
You are right, overlord + burrowed ling is awesome and should be used more. A single marine can't really delay that much. building scouting rax is silly..... Once again, you seem to think that you are somehow limited in scvs.... I'll propose this, by the time that you should stop building scvs (70ish) you will have not had any real pressure (outside of muta harass, which should be taken care of w/ turrets and a small marine pack in base) in most (ill say 80%+ games).
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
About the tech swiching.I disagree completely. It MATTERS a lot to what you max out in late game after trading armies. If terran trades army with zerg, and terran had 12 rax, 2 factories and 1/2 starports, terran will max out again on bio+tank+medivac. If zerg loses his ling/bling muta, he can remax on ROACHES and do drops. He can remax on Broodlords and swipe the whole map. He can remax on more of the same stuff. He can remax on infestor/ultra. And for the terran there is no way to guess what units will be the zerg making, unless terran spends scans continuously until he finds the zerg army. Then it would be too late. I just feel zerg's flexibility in late game to switch army compositons is too big and requires NO infrastructure. To your argument that the zerg has t ech structures that can be sniped, I can respond with this : MAKE THEM AGAIN. If a terran can make 6 factories, each of which costs a crap load of gas, or 12 rax with addons only to make units out of them, why can't the zerg place a second spire? So they can float minerals and gas? I don't get your point. Other races have to make buildings and spend tons of resources on them just to be able to produce units, and zerg can't even make a second spawning pool? So, in a way, I feel your argument about tech switching is a bit off.
To respond to your building argument, that is poor play...... Why would you spend an extra 200g on another spire? you should build 2 more factories in your games, see how many people evaluating your games call you bad. I would also add that remaking tech buildings for zerg takes a long time. I would respond with your scenario by asking, what units do you think are really different late game... Marines are effective versus all units, ghosts are great against infesters, ultras and brolords, muta isn't really an effective switch because of the massive rax play, roaches w/ drop is a great idea but is a tactic to spread you out, not an army composition (it is not viable for more than drop), actually I will make a list
1. Ling- tech switching to lings sounds preposterous to most people because it is, while this may be a viable option 1 in 100 games, most of the time you are going to eat all of your larvae and your lings are going to melt to tanks and marines
2. Baneling- not only do these collectively take as much time as ultras to make and cost more per food (24 secs to make lings, 20 secs to morph and the time it takes to get to rally point) they also are not a viable massing unit. if you want to remax on ultra/bane/x then that is ok. looking at what this beats- marines, what does it lose to? tanks and micro.
3. Roach- There is a reason why this unit is barely made in this mu, it is bad against marines in sizable engagements, horrible against tanks because of the extra damage, poor in a simcity because of the short range and very supply inefficient. making 18 roaches to do a 3 pronged drop would be cool, but that isn't a tech switch as much at it is a tactic
4. muta- your 12 rax would eat mutas alive. period.
5. hydra- lol
6. infester/x- infesters are a great unit that do well against marines, if you trade armies late game then I would start making ghosts and marines w/ enough medivacs and tanks/thors. You should also make sure he isn't doing brolords (and if he is, you will have reactor starport against a race with poor AA), even if he is going brolords, you can snipe them with ghosts.
7. ultralisks- ghosts/marine/medivac w/ tanks will do fine against ultras. If they add in banelings and infesters you will still be fine with a ghost/marine/tank/medivac comp.
8. brolords- ghosts and then when you see the brolords or signs of them then start making vikings again.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
About the static defenses, I disagree again. Spine crawlers are more powerful than both bunkers and cannons, and CAN RELOCATE. Same applies for spore crawlers.Since zergs float minerals (and don't say they don't cause in every progame I see, lategame zerg floats 1/2k), they can kinda spend that on static defense and not qq so much about harass. A drop full of marines does to an undefended base what a drop full of banelings (actually a drop full of banelings does far more, because if you don't see it coming, all your workers are gone). or a zerglings drop on an undefended base. Zerg has better static defense than both protoss or terran. An infestor in the mineral line and two spine crawlers and 2 drops full of marines might die if terran doesn't spread. My point is, if I have to spend minerals for 4-5 turrets on every base, why shouldn't zerg spend at least that much for defense? In addition, zerg's macro mechanics require zergs to keep 1+ queen at every hatch they have and queens auto expire drops after a while, since they do damage to the medivac. And marines can't kill the queen cause there are spines protecting it. Also, queens mess up targeting priority and reduce damage dealt to workers.
Now you just look like you have been scarred deeply by some zergs that are better than you.... First you have to take the mu's into account, in TvP drops happen and the protoss used to just warp in storm to rape the drop, now they build canons and leave behind some zealots, it works fine, TvT you have the same unit, the hiding your marines in the mineral line doesn't work, the loading up and just going away doesn't work, and 8 marines w/ a medivac will easily kill 2 spines and then the tech. Spines are really poor static d, i would say the same is true with canons vs ground, but the difference is that leaving 4 food of zealots will do a lot better than 4f of lings. The difference between a drop of marines and a drop of ligns is that marines damage output is the same while needing NO surface area that zerglings need, also (more importantly) is that the medivac heals units at 10.4 hps whereas the ovie doesn't. Also, medivacs are extremely useful outside of drops whereas spending 300g on speed and drops is a lot. if you kill that queen that you are complaining about then you have effectively taken away 4 larvae and 150 minerals, that almost pays for the drop itself. on top of all of that dropping marines (that have 5 range) and sniping buildings outside of spine range (6) is extremely easy, whereas it is not likely with lings (the health difference of buildings for each race helps with this). I am not saying that terran is op or zerg is up but you are seriously downplaying a great strength of terran and overplaying the (quite frankly) weaknesses of zerg. 5 turrets is 375 minerals, each spine is 150 minerals and 1 larvae, 2 spines and a spore at each base is fairly adequate and is fair play, sadly the turrets are more effective per cost still and those spines/spore pretty much only protect the mineral line. queens die in a seconds to 8 marines (150/(6x8x.86) is about 2.5 seconds.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
As far as battles go, terran is at a clear disadvantage in skill required against effectiveness.
1, Good battles always happen if you have some pre-information. I think I already made my point that zerg has dominant map control and presence, faster units and can quickly force an engagement or retreat with minimal losses. Creep spread makes zerg SEE constantly where terran army is, which gives the zerg time to position and prepare for the battle, even flank and or/ counterattack terran's bases or cut reinforcements. When is the last time you saw a terran position itself between zerg and its base to cut reinforcements? Overlords upon high ledges can clearly see unit compositions and army paths. Burrowed units are an addition to the abysmal advantage zerg has in the scouting department. Terran can only scan, which, again, is an eco suicide, since terran is severly behind in workers. Or terran can send a marine which will be insta denied by his muta/ling and get zero information, since zerg will surely relocate immediately and his main army (blings/infestor) is lurking somewhere else. So, in the department of preparing your concave and composition for the battles, forcing engagements at favorable spots or running out of engagements (impossible for terran), zerg is clearly the superior race.
going to ignore the creep spread and other things you are exxagerating about and just look at the skill effectiveness. I would agree that terrans have a higher skill cap when it comes to battle micro, a terran has to move/patrol their marines while quing attacks with their tanks and using thors as walls against banelings. However, the zerg player can do lots of things as well, controlling units attacking at the same time from different sides, moving the banes the same amount a terran will move their marines, splitting banes when the terran patrols his marines, spreading and/or focusing mutas and avoiding marine fire with mutas while keeping magic boxed vs thors and then focusing the tanks. Also terran can que up going into a battle while zerg should be creating units while microing. Up until the top pro lvls the micro in battle should be fairly equal. remember that patrolling marines will make them split off by a couple (or even 1) at a time and negate the banelings quite a bit.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
2. Let's talk more about the battle itself and how each race approach it. I will talk about the two common unit compositions: muta/ling/bling vs marine/tank +1/2 thor. In my honest opinion, if zerg catches terran unsieged, the battle is over. Considering the superiority that zerg has in the department of scouting, it is not a surprise that sometimes zerg does catch terran unsieged, it happens in thousands of pro/not pro games. So, basically, the terran has to be patient. Engaging on creep is a suicide, moving too fast is a suicide, so terran has to leapfrog. On larger maps this just means zerg ignores your army sitting in the middle, goes to kill your main/natural with his muta/ling and then you all-in and die to banelings/spines and his main army attacking you in the back.
If you are sieging up in the middle of tal'darim w/out knowing the zerg is coming to destroy you is silly, I would start with moving out with your hellions or a small group of marines to clear watchtowers and move your tanks most of the way across the map. During this time the zerg is going to be morphing banelings and making lings and w/e else they can. if you are pushing when the zerg is maxed and has all the banes to destroy you when ur push happens then you lost the macro game a while ago >.> siege your tanks when you expect him to be pushing out and start leap frogging then. also, harass your opponent w/ drops to make it easy to push up to his base.
On October 13 2011 08:11 WickedSkies wrote:
I believe I made my point. I believe a good zerg should never ever get dropped after he gets mutalisks, I think they have over the top advantages in terms of economy and scouting compared to other races. As far as army compositions go, I think zerg maxed t3 army having a lot of broodlords and infestors is far superior to terran t2.5 army (tanks,vikings,thors,marines,ghosts).
I am looking forward to your replies.
You can still threaten drops and sac the dropship/marines if you so choose, I agree that drops should be mitigated by mutas (one of the main reasons for mutas), Once again I think that you have a problem with making scvs and such and it is showing in your post, by the time that the zerg is goign to attack you (14+ minutes and 18ish with brolords typically) you should have 3+ cc's and your eco will be better than the zergs because you can replace 5 scvs with a cc or supplement your army with more cc's. having 100f of mining units and 140 army is powerful. in the ZvX mu's scouting is fundamentally different for the t/p because of the lack of units for Z. you are either scouting for an infestation pit, or spire typically. The times where you lack scouting (which if you make the unused units like reapers and vikings early then that is void) you don't really need to scout and should play your game because you dictate the zergs game. zerg maxed t3 is essentially only brolords (ultras are bad for their cost/food/etc) mixed with infesters and if you let the zerg get 4 gas and don't have the eco to support the counter units (ghost, viking, etc) then you should lose, the brolord is pretty much the extension of the zergs eco and is a busting unit.
I don't think that you adequately made your point because it is flawed and it seems to be based off of poor gameplay. Looking at the GSL you can see that terran is doing great, I wouldn't say that Z is up or anything like that but the exagerations that you seem to want to make need to be pointed out.
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On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:
Actually, when I think a Zerg is roach busting me, I neither take a fast third nor move out, so this becomes a huge problem when they are playing standard and have a third base/mutalisks. The mutas delay my third and my push even further. Missinterpreting a Zerg player as Terran has consequences only the Terran player can speak to.
What will give you the impression that the zerg is roach busting you... The only time that you should fear a roach bust is if you see a delayed nat, or the roach warren itself. If you see the roach warren and the zerg knows you did then there is a good chance that he would stop his push because roaches are terrible against bunkers more than 4 range away lol. I would probably add on to the other guys suggestion of making a reaper after the 2-3 marauders to scout him again since you will already have the tech lab at that time.
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On October 13 2011 09:43 LoneWolf.Alpha- wrote:
I've been doing very well recently with switching out stalkers and going with immortal / templar / zealot / archon against terran. i think the main reason toss sucks is because people try to get a ton of stalkers, and stalkers suck balls. lowest dps/cost in the game. even worse than drones (that's true, i've checked)
Yes stalkers are VERY bad, but people make them because:
1. they need to protect colossi (which can be avoided by not making colossi, and going archons/HT instead)
2. they need to kill medivacs, which will be more prevalent because they are not making vikings since you are not making colossi. (I think the answer for this is phoenixes, which can also help mitigate drops like blink stalkers and are versatile for scouting/picking off reinforcements. Only make 5 or so though)
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On October 13 2011 09:25 ZorBa.G wrote:
Wow, all this QQ about Terran. I'm not here to write a Uni paper so I'm going to get straight to the point.
OK, everyone complains early game Terran has a scouting advantage. Now I'm going to consider the early game 0 - 8 minutes.
How many options does a Terran really have in regards to early pressure that is so threatening that P or Z dosen't?
If Terran uses scans, simply... that costs mules. Less mules = less production if he is doing some type of early timing. Not to mention it will hurt him later on in the game. Now generally speaking, Protoss and Zerg both produce workers at a faster rate then Terran, if he is going to drop in your base in the early game and you need to take workers off your mineral line.... guess what! Your still in most cases;
1. Still even with him
2. If you take the drop out, ahead of him
There are many ways of dealing with Terran early game. Seriously, Terran is not as versatile as what most people think. Do you guys have any idea how hard it is to tech switch effeciently as compared to Protoss or Zerg? Once you scout what army comp Terran is going for, that is it... from that point on if you want to switch as a P or Z, you now have the upper advantage. IMO, Terran at least needs that small scouting advantage because of this. If P or Z can effectively null out Terran early pressure, in most cases this puts Terran in a difficult position.
I mean c'mon, protoss complaining.... you have a god damn permanet cloaked scout at your disposal. Don't come on here and QQ if you can't damn well use it properly!
Zerg, wow.... really .... once that creep spread is up, you have the hugest advantage out of all three races. Map control + the ability to transition whenever you want whilst being the most effective at it!
I couldn't be bothered going down to all the nitty and gritty details of this, but really.... when it all comes down to it. What I just said is straight to the point and how it is.
Gosh, imagine if Terran had an 1 upgrade that could upgrade ALL units armour/attack.
If you ask me, I think at this point in time before HoTs..... the game is balanced. I couldn't care less what tourny results say, there will always be a race who seems to be clearly "on top" of the others... and as long as this happens, that race will always be considered as the OP race. It will be never-ending. It's not like Terran has a 90% win rate against other races whilst Zerg and Protoss has a 10% win rate against Terran. We are talking about a 4 - 8% difference in win rate here! What do you expect, a perfect 50% win rate for each race?
terran scouting is neither better or worse than their opponents, sacraficing 300 minerals is a big cost for the scan and the scan is very powerful. terran units are more universal than z/p but harder to do tech switches with (that is something that p says as well, I think they are both equal).
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On October 13 2011 09:28 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:I think Immortals are just unexplored. They are actually great against Marauders. Try going double robo immortal on 2 base instead of going single robo Colossus. Try it about 5-10 times. Have the report on my desk by Monday  Interesting build. But don't you think it has a time limit? If Terran gets any type of MMM ball going, or god forbid ghosts, wouldn't the lack of splash damage make the Z, Se, St, Imm army disintegrate? At best, wouldn't a double robo be good for one timing attack? As you can't exactly fly around the map with those clunky immortals.
In TSL3 MC did it vs thorzain on taldarim didnt he? It was really lategame but he had double robo immortals and after one of the battles he had a ton of Immortals left. Immortal burst damage is great because it negates medivac healing.
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What I am getting at is the speed with which zerg can occupy towers which are a key source of scouting.
I have no problem with someone saying Xel Naga Towers are detrimental to high level gameplay. They removed the tower on XNFortress in the GSL for a reason (actually it was a Terran OP reason, in that siege tank + tower was OP).
are invisible, require scan/raven to destroy and can be rebuilt immediately. Actually, as far as I can see, for the cost of 75 energy (3 tumors), in 5 minutes a good zerg should be able to have PERMANENT vision over the entire map. Compare that to terran, who has to use 50 energy (and is 30 workers behind, mind you) in order to have zerg non-guaranteed (cause you don't know where they are) and TEMPORARY (cause it expires) army movement information, you will know what I mean.
Again, the difference is Terran has repair, medivacs, siege tanks, bunkers, PFs, turrets, and sensor towers. Zerg has nothing like any of that, and as I said, a million spines around an expansion will not protect it from 2 dropships and stim. Spreading creep is extremely time consuming, and many Zerg will say it's not fair you can just scan once or twice and kill all creep.
But as Idra has said, the difference is Zerg doesn't have a lot of versatile units like Terran does, or defense. We can't just make a PF at our expansions and be pretty safe against whatever the opponent does. We don't have marines that are good against everything in small fights. The difference is Terran is a much more defensive race, and isn't as necessary for them to know exactly where the opponent is or what they are doing at any given moment as compared to the Zerg.
Zerg makes up for it by being extremely fast. Terran makes up for not being fast, by being extremely strong defensively and having strong unit synergies when in position.
Mutas also deny every prodding/forward scouting with marines if marines are not in the proper amount. Of course, if marines are the proper amount to deal with mutas, they can't actually go deal with the mutas, as somewhere up front there lies a green mass of goo that is just waiting for you to clump up and be away from siege tanks. Of course, zerg sometimes doesn't bother to engage you in the middle, and just goes with his 20 mutas and kills all the workers you have in any base. I have to admit that I always loved the bias against terran when casters are super silent while 20+ scvs and 5 turrets go down in a second, but when a muta dies to those turrets, its ''OOOH he lost a muta'..
Mutas are terrible fighting units. They're exact strength is denying scouting and keeping Terran stuck in their base. Anytime Zerg has lots of mutas, generally means Terran would kill Zerg if they somehow were recalled into their base. That's the whole dynamic of the match-up. As muta numbers grow, you need thors, I don't know what to tell you.
Overlords' spewiing creep ability, combined with a burrowed zergling can really hold your expansions timings by 30+ seconds, and zerg will ACTUALLY know you are expanding. Placing a marine over a zer'gs possible expansion will just give you a second or two delay at best, while the juicy marine is being eaten up by a pack of fragile lings. The proposition of buidling rax and flying them around seems really nice, but somehow the idea of being behind in workers AND occupying one of my not-so-many workers for 65 seconds doesn't seem that appealing to me. So no, thanks, I will not mass produce rax in order to scout.
Scan and kill the overlord when you start building the command center. Not that difficult. It is time consuming though, but it took just as much time for Zerg to burrow and put an overlord there, not to mention an overlord costs more than a marine, can get Zerg supply blocked, and we have to research burrow. Not that difficult man.
It MATTERS a lot to what you max out in late game after trading armies. If terran trades army with zerg, and terran had 12 rax, 2 factories and 1/2 starports, terran will max out again on bio+tank+medivac. If zerg loses his ling/bling muta, he can remax on ROACHES and do drops. He can remax on Broodlords and swipe the whole map. He can remax on more of the same stuff. He can remax on infestor/ultra.
When both players are macro'ing at a high level, it will be impossible for Zerg to instantly remax on anything other than tier 1 units. What you are saying is ridiculous, sorry, but you will never see Zerg have some huge engagement and remax on Ultras unless they intentionally banked up gas and spent time and money on upgrades for the ultras or infestors or whatever tier 3 death units you are so scared of for this exact situation. Upon which, you should've scouted the ultralisk cavern, or seen him get 3/3.
It doesn't matter what Zerg remaxes on, rine/tank or mech will crush any Zerg composition well enough that they can buy time for more specialized units (marauders, vikings, ghosts, etc). It only doesn't work if Terran wasn't macro'ing well either, or lost way too much in The Battle.
I'd love to see any game where Zerg remaxes on roaches against rine/tank and 'does drops' and wins the game. Terran will kill Zerg while running to their base. You are aware that each hatch will only have 4 larva at it right, with perfect injects right? So on 5 bases, that is 20 roaches at once. And that's assuming Zerg was banking 500 gas, which you should never see at the top level, even when Zerg is on 5 base.
All your arguments seem to be based on "what if zerg macros like shit all game and has 19 larva at each hatch and isn't using up larva and is banking money?" Well, it only works if Terran is banking a shitton of money and doesn't have enough production facitilities too.
n. Spine crawlers are more powerful than both bunkers and cannons, and CAN RELOCATE. Same applies for spore crawlers
At best, you will have 3 spine crawlers hitting where a dropship dropped off. If you see spines at the expansion with your dropship, you just drop on the other side of the hatch. Best case scenario, it's 3 spines vs 2 dropships full of stim. Zerg loses. And to have it so the least protected side of the expo or mineral line has only 3 spines, means there should be at least 8 spines on the base. A hell of a lot more expensive to have 8 spines + hatchery + queen than it is to just have a PF.
Same applies for spore crawlers.Since zergs float minerals (and don't say they don't cause in every progame I see, lategame zerg floats 1/2k), they can kinda spend that on static defense and not qq so much about harass
Huh? Bad macro is bad macro, you won't see Zergs float those kind of minerals anymore (you used to when Zergs never made macro hatches). Zerg floating 2k minerals is just as bad as Terran floating 2k minerals.
I assure you, a Zerg who has 2k in lings instead of banked, is going to be much, much deadlier. You should worry less about Zergs who macro like shit and bank money, and worry more about Zergs who macro properly and have 2k in lings in your face.
A drop full of marines does to an undefended base what a drop full of banelings (actually a drop full of banelings does far more, because if you don't see it coming, all your workers are gone).
Generally drop tech isn't worth it against Terran compared to getting 2 more mutas out. In end game, a larger muta flock is preferable to dropping banelings on mineral lines. Why would Zerg baneling bomb a mineral line, and possibly lose 100+200/100 because there's a single good missile turret or Terran actually responds to a huge blip on his minimap, when they can harass with mutas and kill turrets and chase the SCVs?
But, sure, baneling bomb can do damage. I think Protoss would agree that 2 dropships of stim hurts more when unprepared than a baneling bomb though. It sounds like you are venting about things you have played against, and I got to tell you, if you see a blip on your minimap, move away.
. Zerg has better static defense than both protoss or terran.
lol. no they don't
. An infestor in the mineral line and two spine crawlers and 2 drops full of marines might die if terran doesn't spread.
2 FG from a single infestor does not kill 2 dropships full of units. If you see an infestor, just fly away, or snipe it with a leading marine. Why don't you just leave a battlecruiser at each base, that way you don't killed by baneling bombs or mutas (infestors cost 1/2 a BC in gas, so don't say it's too expensive if you think putting an infestor at each zerg expo is such an easy thing, or you can just leave a dropship full of marines at each expo).
As far as battles go, terran is at a clear disadvantage in skill required against effectiveness.
I never disagreed that Terran is the harder race to play. As far as 'skill', the 'skill' is different. Terran needs to prepare correctly and be in positon before the battle, Zerg has to micro more during the battle (yes, Terran has to focus fire banes, but Zerg has to FF tanks, yes terran has to split, but zerg has to split banes and make sure they dont hit tanks, and yes terran has to stim, but zerg has to set up ling groups in multiple areas and flanks before the battle). Both sides require skill for the engagement, but I can assure you a Terran who is positioned correctly is just impossible, completely impossible for Zerg to attack.
The trade off is that Terran needs to move up to hit hatcheries and such, of course, but then Zerg units are just total crap.
When is the last time you saw a terran position itself between zerg and its base to cut reinforcements?
Slower race is slow. And, many times. The point if Terran and zerg has the big battle, Zerg loses, and Terran needs to gain enough ground to cut off reinforcements before Zerg can remacro up another army, and Zerg needs to inflict enough damage to make Terran wait longer.
if zerg catches terran sieged, the battle is over
FTFY. But yes, therein lies what ZvT is all about. You leapfrog your tanks, and take advantage of Zerg being out of position. Zerg will not attack you if his mutas are handling a drop or harassing your base, unless he has such a huge lead in army supply that he can afford to engage without his mutas. In which case you lost the macro game already.
. I believe a good zerg should never ever get dropped after he gets mutalisks, I think they have over the top advantages in terms of economy and scouting compared to other races. As far as army compositions go, I think zerg maxed t3 army having a lot of broodlords and infestors is far superior to terran t2.5 army (tanks,vikings,thors,marines,ghosts).
Watch any game of MMA vs Nestea. Yes, in the mid-game, Mutas 'stop' drops. That doesn't mean drops still aren't super effective at doing things other than damage - as a way to gain ground against an opponent forced out of position to move all his tanks forward and know he won't be caught unsieged. But, in the lategame, when Mutas die out or become less relevant in favor or BLs or Ultras, drops once again become extremely important against the slower end-game Zerg army.
Think of it this way - drops will completely destroy Zerg unless he has both map awareness and lots of mutas. If he has map awareness, then you can simply do damage by dropping against the overlords and going home, and leaving with having done at least some damage and profit with the drop. Mutalisks are terrible combat units, so the key to beating Zerg is pressure, pressure, pressure, as if you can force enough pressure to force the mutas to fight, they will end up getting hurt and lowered in count, which allows your drops to once again destroy the zerg.
I'm kind of surprised to see someone arguing Zerg is OP in ZvT. Right now Zerg is suffering badly against Terran in tournaments - and like I already said, this means shit-all but the general public generally doesn't talk about balance when one race is doing bad in tournament results. Personally, I do think Zerg is slightly favored against Terran, but not at all for the reasons you listed, and I think it's very minor, and I think there are many ways Terran sidesteps this issue (ie mech is an obnoxious example). My point is, is that no one else is having this conversation, and I find it somewhat amusing. I disagree with what you say, but I do think Zerg is slightly favored, even if most Zerg and the general public strongly disagree.
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On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:I think Immortals are just unexplored. They are actually great against Marauders. Try going double robo immortal on 2 base instead of going single robo Colossus. Try it about 5-10 times. Have the report on my desk by Monday
Immortals aren't even cost-efficient against Marauders with Stim, actually. They do have some utility - their damage is very bursty, which nullifies medivacs to a certain extent, and they're really robust against bio without upgrades. They're also very lean, in the sense that they only require a Robo, and no additional upgrades to reach full effectiveness. However, you don't want to rely on them in the midgame. Ultimately, Marine-heavy comps do great against them, and Ghosts absolutely demolish them.
On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +A 1gate expand will not survive [a 2 rax] without pulled probes, and even then the Protoss is far behind, Unless your HuK, then you can hold a Marine King Prime 3 rax with a 1 gate expand without using probes.
Unless you can count to 3, and realize that MarineKing's build was not a 2 rax, and the timing of his attack was significantly later.
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On October 13 2011 10:12 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:A 1gate expand will not survive [a 2 rax] without pulled probes, and even then the Protoss is far behind, Unless your HuK, then you can hold a Marine King Prime 3 rax with a 1 gate expand without using probes. Unless you can count to 3, and realize that MarineKing's build was not a 2 rax, and the timing of his attack was significantly later.
3 includes 2, and he did the exact push in question.
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I know that this has probably been discussed already, but I wanted to hear any new ideas about this problem.
Complaint
Problem: Ghost vs High Templar micro is incredibly unbalanced, making 200 v 200 battles in PvT a joke.
- Lets just start with the High Templar and Ghost raw stats, including their spells and abilities
-- High Templar
- Movement speed is 1.875, 80 total hp
- Has storm, which costs 75 energy and does 80 damage over time (4 sec)
- Can feedback, costs 50 which can kill ghosts one at a time.
- Both abilities have 9 range
-- Ghosts
- Movement speed is 2.25, 100 total hp
- Has snipe, 25 energy and range 10, can be queued to instacast 2x.
- Has emp, which does 100 instant damage and also removes cast energy. Also reveals cloaked units (observer)
- Also can be cloaked
- Looking at just this, its easy to see how if both players are focusing on microing their units, the terran player will always beat out the protoss player. If the templar are clumped, then 1 or 2 emps will render them useless. If they are spread, then snipe will kill them before the protoss can feedback the ghosts. In addition, ghosts can poke in and out much faster due to movement speed and cloak. If the templar are behind the colossi, or behind the ranged units, then the ghost can just emp the entire protoss army and engage.
- Also, even if the HT live to storm, the damage does is significantly less than what a blanket EMP does to the protoss army. Storm does damage over time, which is nullified to some extent by medivacs and stimmed bioball micro. The protoss cannot afford to feedback all of the medivacs, for they need energy to feedback ghosts and storm the bioball. Meanwhile, ghosts can blanket emp the entire protoss army and do 100 instant damage to all units while also removing Templar energy.
- Another problem is detection. Terran currently has 3 forms of MOBILE detection. Scans, Ravens, and EMPs. Scans have huge range, and while they trade off in terms of mule production, 200 v 200 battles usually occur in the lategame where mules are not as valuable. Ravens have utility in themselves with PDD, which can sap stalker dps when facing high Viking counts. Emps, ofcourse are already installed into the lategame Terran army with ghosts.
Protoss, on the other hand, has 1 form of mobile detection, the observer. The observer also has the disadvantage of having to be built from the Robo, which stalls colossus production. So when an observer dies, another must be built. On the other hand, emps and scans can be casted multiple times instantly without taking up any supply.
- All of these problems lead to inevitable outcome in which the terran either emps or snipes the templars, and is then free to emp the protoss army. Stim also prevents any retreat for the protoss army, and sentry forcefields are also depleted by emps.
Solution: Make the ranges equal for both respective casters. Also, im not sure why emp HAS to reveal cloaked units, especially since terran has so many other forms of detection.
There might be another solution that is far more elegant, im open to any suggestions.
Side Effects:...200 v 200 battles won't be just a formality in late game PvT
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On October 13 2011 09:59 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 09:28 -_- wrote:On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:I think Immortals are just unexplored. They are actually great against Marauders. Try going double robo immortal on 2 base instead of going single robo Colossus. Try it about 5-10 times. Have the report on my desk by Monday Interesting build. But don't you think it has a time limit? If Terran gets any type of MMM ball going, or god forbid ghosts, wouldn't the lack of splash damage make the Z, Se, St, Imm army disintegrate? At best, wouldn't a double robo be good for one timing attack? As you can't exactly fly around the map with those clunky immortals. In TSL3 MC did it vs thorzain on taldarim didnt he? It was really lategame but he had double robo immortals and after one of the battles he had a ton of Immortals left. Immortal burst damage is great because it negates medivac healing.
I think we might be talking about different Terran builds.
If you're saying double robo immortal can be effective against Terran mech, or bio mech without ghosts, I certainly agree. I guess what I would like to know is do you think it would be effective against a standard MMMG composition?
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At best, you will have 3 spine crawlers hitting where a dropship dropped off. If you see spines at the expansion with your dropship, you just drop on the other side of the hatch. Best case scenario, it's 3 spines vs 2 dropships full of stim. Zerg loses.
I dont know what your argueing here. It is possible to be safe from a single dropship full of marines with spine crawlers. They can usually buy enough time for you to defend double drops as well, and thats assuming your not leaving an infestor at each base (do that!)
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On October 13 2011 11:21 -_- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 09:59 Techno wrote:On October 13 2011 09:28 -_- wrote:On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:I think Immortals are just unexplored. They are actually great against Marauders. Try going double robo immortal on 2 base instead of going single robo Colossus. Try it about 5-10 times. Have the report on my desk by Monday Interesting build. But don't you think it has a time limit? If Terran gets any type of MMM ball going, or god forbid ghosts, wouldn't the lack of splash damage make the Z, Se, St, Imm army disintegrate? At best, wouldn't a double robo be good for one timing attack? As you can't exactly fly around the map with those clunky immortals. In TSL3 MC did it vs thorzain on taldarim didnt he? It was really lategame but he had double robo immortals and after one of the battles he had a ton of Immortals left. Immortal burst damage is great because it negates medivac healing. I think we might be talking about different Terran builds. If you're saying double robo immortal can be effective against Terran mech, or bio mech without ghosts, I certainly agree. I guess what I would like to know is do you think it would be effective against a standard MMMG composition?
Well Im pretty sure thats what happened in the TSL game. Basically imortals force marines, which are easier to kill in the late game. The reason bio is strong in the late game is medivacs, kill the medivacs, kill the terran.
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On October 13 2011 11:09 owenowens33 wrote:
I know that this has probably been discussed already, but I wanted to hear any new ideas about this problem.
Complaint
Problem: Ghost vs High Templar micro is incredibly unbalanced, making 200 v 200 battles in PvT a joke.
- Lets just start with the High Templar and Ghost raw stats, including their spells and abilities
-- High Templar
- Movement speed is 1.875, 80 total hp
- Has storm, which costs 75 energy and does 80 damage over time (4 sec)
- Can feedback, costs 50 which can kill ghosts one at a time.
- Both abilities have 9 range
-- Ghosts
- Movement speed is 2.25, 100 total hp
- Has snipe, 25 energy and range 10, can be queued to instacast 2x.
- Has emp, which does 100 instant damage and also removes cast energy. Also reveals cloaked units (observer)
- Also can be cloaked
- Looking at just this, its easy to see how if both players are focusing on microing their units, the terran player will always beat out the protoss player. If the templar are clumped, then 1 or 2 emps will render them useless. If they are spread, then snipe will kill them before the protoss can feedback the ghosts. In addition, ghosts can poke in and out much faster due to movement speed and cloak. If the templar are behind the colossi, or behind the ranged units, then the ghost can just emp the entire protoss army and engage.
- Also, even if the HT live to storm, the damage does is significantly less than what a blanket EMP does to the protoss army. Storm does damage over time, which is nullified to some extent by medivacs and stimmed bioball micro. The protoss cannot afford to feedback all of the medivacs, for they need energy to feedback ghosts and storm the bioball. Meanwhile, ghosts can blanket emp the entire protoss army and do 100 instant damage to all units while also removing Templar energy.
- Another problem is detection. Terran currently has 3 forms of MOBILE detection. Scans, Ravens, and EMPs. Scans have huge range, and while they trade off in terms of mule production, 200 v 200 battles usually occur in the lategame where mules are not as valuable. Ravens have utility in themselves with PDD, which can sap stalker dps when facing high Viking counts. Emps, ofcourse are already installed into the lategame Terran army with ghosts.
Protoss, on the other hand, has 1 form of mobile detection, the observer. The observer also has the disadvantage of having to be built from the Robo, which stalls colossus production. So when an observer dies, another must be built. On the other hand, emps and scans can be casted multiple times instantly without taking up any supply.
- All of these problems lead to inevitable outcome in which the terran either emps or snipes the templars, and is then free to emp the protoss army. Stim also prevents any retreat for the protoss army, and sentry forcefields are also depleted by emps.
Solution: Make the ranges equal for both respective casters. Also, im not sure why emp HAS to reveal cloaked units, especially since terran has so many other forms of detection.
There might be another solution that is far more elegant, im open to any suggestions.
Side Effects:...200 v 200 battles won't be just a formality in late game PvT
The high range of vikings makes it extremely easy for the terran to snipe observers lategame as well, and once you've done that you'll hit those EMP's and snipes without any worries.
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On October 13 2011 12:15 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:09 owenowens33 wrote:
I know that this has probably been discussed already, but I wanted to hear any new ideas about this problem.
Complaint
Problem: Ghost vs High Templar micro is incredibly unbalanced, making 200 v 200 battles in PvT a joke.
- Lets just start with the High Templar and Ghost raw stats, including their spells and abilities
-- High Templar
- Movement speed is 1.875, 80 total hp
- Has storm, which costs 75 energy and does 80 damage over time (4 sec)
- Can feedback, costs 50 which can kill ghosts one at a time.
- Both abilities have 9 range
-- Ghosts
- Movement speed is 2.25, 100 total hp
- Has snipe, 25 energy and range 10, can be queued to instacast 2x.
- Has emp, which does 100 instant damage and also removes cast energy. Also reveals cloaked units (observer)
- Also can be cloaked
- Looking at just this, its easy to see how if both players are focusing on microing their units, the terran player will always beat out the protoss player. If the templar are clumped, then 1 or 2 emps will render them useless. If they are spread, then snipe will kill them before the protoss can feedback the ghosts. In addition, ghosts can poke in and out much faster due to movement speed and cloak. If the templar are behind the colossi, or behind the ranged units, then the ghost can just emp the entire protoss army and engage.
- Also, even if the HT live to storm, the damage does is significantly less than what a blanket EMP does to the protoss army. Storm does damage over time, which is nullified to some extent by medivacs and stimmed bioball micro. The protoss cannot afford to feedback all of the medivacs, for they need energy to feedback ghosts and storm the bioball. Meanwhile, ghosts can blanket emp the entire protoss army and do 100 instant damage to all units while also removing Templar energy.
- Another problem is detection. Terran currently has 3 forms of MOBILE detection. Scans, Ravens, and EMPs. Scans have huge range, and while they trade off in terms of mule production, 200 v 200 battles usually occur in the lategame where mules are not as valuable. Ravens have utility in themselves with PDD, which can sap stalker dps when facing high Viking counts. Emps, ofcourse are already installed into the lategame Terran army with ghosts.
Protoss, on the other hand, has 1 form of mobile detection, the observer. The observer also has the disadvantage of having to be built from the Robo, which stalls colossus production. So when an observer dies, another must be built. On the other hand, emps and scans can be casted multiple times instantly without taking up any supply.
- All of these problems lead to inevitable outcome in which the terran either emps or snipes the templars, and is then free to emp the protoss army. Stim also prevents any retreat for the protoss army, and sentry forcefields are also depleted by emps.
Solution: Make the ranges equal for both respective casters. Also, im not sure why emp HAS to reveal cloaked units, especially since terran has so many other forms of detection.
There might be another solution that is far more elegant, im open to any suggestions.
Side Effects:...200 v 200 battles won't be just a formality in late game PvT
The high range of vikings makes it extremely easy for the terran to snipe observers lategame as well, and once you've done that you'll hit those EMP's and snipes without any worries.
Oh so yeah, Terran will have an endless amount of MMM + Ghosts + Vikings with full upgrades? Yeah Vikings can snipe observers, but what are your stalkers for? If any protoss has an observer floating directly over a Terrans army, well thats just simply a bad protoss who dosen't know how to utilise the unit properly.
Do you have any idea how expesive and time consuming it is for Terran to get ghosts let alone vikings as well in an MMM ball? Also, keep in mind Protoss can reinforce their units heaps more quicker then what terran can, you have proxy pylons ffs. I swear some people think Terran has an endless amount of money/production buildings sometimes. Also remember, Storm bloody kills... EMP dosen't!
If you have an observer + blink stalkers + proxy pylon... In some respect, thats pretty much a medivac drop. Oh but thats right, somehow the with the Terrans endless amount of money + production, he will have tanks sitting in his base sieged up and defending.
I just wish people could get it thorugh their heads that Terran is no where near the most flexible race! If anything, it's Zerg. I've already said it before and I'll say it again, "Zerg has upgrades that not only upgrade 1 unit but almost pretty much all units, they can transition more quickly and effectively then what Terran or Protoss can, not to mention... when it comes down to the crunch, they can reinforce units more quicker then T and P and just continously throw crap at you. Whilst they also have the most annoying harass unit in the game! MUTALISK! Oh but thats right, a Terran T1 unit (marine) can smash Mutas...... "What the hell are you doing flying your mutas over marines in the first place? It's not like it's hard to avoid marines lol! And guess what, if Terran pushes into your base with marines and all you have is mutas for the direct engagement, well thats your own damn fault for making too many. Zerg is meant to be the "reactionary race."
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On October 13 2011 11:51 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 11:21 -_- wrote:On October 13 2011 09:59 Techno wrote:On October 13 2011 09:28 -_- wrote:On October 13 2011 09:12 Techno wrote:I think Immortals are just unexplored. They are actually great against Marauders. Try going double robo immortal on 2 base instead of going single robo Colossus. Try it about 5-10 times. Have the report on my desk by Monday Interesting build. But don't you think it has a time limit? If Terran gets any type of MMM ball going, or god forbid ghosts, wouldn't the lack of splash damage make the Z, Se, St, Imm army disintegrate? At best, wouldn't a double robo be good for one timing attack? As you can't exactly fly around the map with those clunky immortals. In TSL3 MC did it vs thorzain on taldarim didnt he? It was really lategame but he had double robo immortals and after one of the battles he had a ton of Immortals left. Immortal burst damage is great because it negates medivac healing. I think we might be talking about different Terran builds. If you're saying double robo immortal can be effective against Terran mech, or bio mech without ghosts, I certainly agree. I guess what I would like to know is do you think it would be effective against a standard MMMG composition? Well Im pretty sure thats what happened in the TSL game. Basically imortals force marines, which are easier to kill in the late game. The reason bio is strong in the late game is medivacs, kill the medivacs, kill the terran.
I guess I was more interested in the build you suggested to Roxy. If you climb up the quote tree we're currently in, you'll see that you told Roxy:
"I think Immortals are just unexplored. They are actually great against Marauders. Try going double robo immortal on 2 base instead of going single robo Colossus. Try it about 5-10 times. Have the report on my desk by Monday."
I quoted that post.
I think this would be a problem, because if Terran gets even a medium sized bioball, I believe Protoss needs splash damage to beat it. However, you seem to think that instead of splash damage you can get a bunch of immortals.
I think that build would be interesting, but that if Protoss didn't do a timing attack with the immortals, Terran would pull ahead. I think Terran could literally build to something like 130 supply from 2 base and run Protoss over. I was interested in your opinion on that.
edit, btw you were thinking about g4, I was thinking about g5 of MC v Thor TSL3.
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On October 13 2011 12:36 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:15 pezit wrote:On October 13 2011 11:09 owenowens33 wrote:
I know that this has probably been discussed already, but I wanted to hear any new ideas about this problem.
Complaint
Problem: Ghost vs High Templar micro is incredibly unbalanced, making 200 v 200 battles in PvT a joke.
- Lets just start with the High Templar and Ghost raw stats, including their spells and abilities
-- High Templar
- Movement speed is 1.875, 80 total hp
- Has storm, which costs 75 energy and does 80 damage over time (4 sec)
- Can feedback, costs 50 which can kill ghosts one at a time.
- Both abilities have 9 range
-- Ghosts
- Movement speed is 2.25, 100 total hp
- Has snipe, 25 energy and range 10, can be queued to instacast 2x.
- Has emp, which does 100 instant damage and also removes cast energy. Also reveals cloaked units (observer)
- Also can be cloaked
- Looking at just this, its easy to see how if both players are focusing on microing their units, the terran player will always beat out the protoss player. If the templar are clumped, then 1 or 2 emps will render them useless. If they are spread, then snipe will kill them before the protoss can feedback the ghosts. In addition, ghosts can poke in and out much faster due to movement speed and cloak. If the templar are behind the colossi, or behind the ranged units, then the ghost can just emp the entire protoss army and engage.
- Also, even if the HT live to storm, the damage does is significantly less than what a blanket EMP does to the protoss army. Storm does damage over time, which is nullified to some extent by medivacs and stimmed bioball micro. The protoss cannot afford to feedback all of the medivacs, for they need energy to feedback ghosts and storm the bioball. Meanwhile, ghosts can blanket emp the entire protoss army and do 100 instant damage to all units while also removing Templar energy.
- Another problem is detection. Terran currently has 3 forms of MOBILE detection. Scans, Ravens, and EMPs. Scans have huge range, and while they trade off in terms of mule production, 200 v 200 battles usually occur in the lategame where mules are not as valuable. Ravens have utility in themselves with PDD, which can sap stalker dps when facing high Viking counts. Emps, ofcourse are already installed into the lategame Terran army with ghosts.
Protoss, on the other hand, has 1 form of mobile detection, the observer. The observer also has the disadvantage of having to be built from the Robo, which stalls colossus production. So when an observer dies, another must be built. On the other hand, emps and scans can be casted multiple times instantly without taking up any supply.
- All of these problems lead to inevitable outcome in which the terran either emps or snipes the templars, and is then free to emp the protoss army. Stim also prevents any retreat for the protoss army, and sentry forcefields are also depleted by emps.
Solution: Make the ranges equal for both respective casters. Also, im not sure why emp HAS to reveal cloaked units, especially since terran has so many other forms of detection.
There might be another solution that is far more elegant, im open to any suggestions.
Side Effects:...200 v 200 battles won't be just a formality in late game PvT
The high range of vikings makes it extremely easy for the terran to snipe observers lategame as well, and once you've done that you'll hit those EMP's and snipes without any worries. Oh so yeah, Terran will have an endless amount of MMM + Ghosts + Vikings with full upgrades? Yeah Vikings can snipe observers, but what are your stalkers for? If any protoss has an observer floating directly over a Terrans army, well thats just simply a bad protoss who dosen't know how to utilise the unit properly. Do you have any idea how expesive and time consuming it is for Terran to get ghosts let alone vikings as well in an MMM ball? Also, keep in mind Protoss can reinforce their units heaps more quicker then what terran can, you have proxy pylons ffs. I swear some people think Terran has an endless amount of money/production buildings sometimes. Also remember, Storm bloody kills... EMP dosen't! If you have an observer + blink stalkers + proxy pylon... In some respect, thats pretty much a medivac drop. Oh but thats right, somehow the with the Terrans endless amount of money + production, he will have tanks sitting in his base sieged up and defending. I just wish people could get it thorugh their heads that Terran is no where near the most flexible race! If anything, it's Zerg. I've already said it before and I'll say it again, "Zerg has upgrades that not only upgrade 1 unit but almost pretty much all units, they can transition more quickly and effectively then what Terran or Protoss can, not to mention... when it comes down to the crunch, they can reinforce units more quicker then T and P and just continously throw crap at you. Whilst they also have the most annoying harass unit in the game! MUTALISK! Oh but thats right, a Terran T1 unit (marine) can smash Mutas...... "What the hell are you doing flying your mutas over marines in the first place? It's not like it's hard to avoid marines lol! And guess what, if Terran pushes into your base with marines and all you have is mutas for the direct engagement, well thats your own damn fault for making too many. Zerg is meant to be the "reactionary race."
You seriously just brought up a bunch of things that have been gone over on every other page in this thread, and all you are doing with them is pulling the discussion off course. The point is that vikings have 9 air to air range, which means that if you scan when you have a few, they will instantly kill any observers that are floating in sight range of your army. And from there you cloak your ghosts and walk in, emping and sniping HTs as your mmm army stims and follows closely behind for the kill. We just saw it literally a few hours ago in the 12th Korean Weekly. There really was nothing to be done against it, in that case at least.
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On October 13 2011 12:36 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 12:15 pezit wrote:On October 13 2011 11:09 owenowens33 wrote:
I know that this has probably been discussed already, but I wanted to hear any new ideas about this problem.
Complaint
Problem: Ghost vs High Templar micro is incredibly unbalanced, making 200 v 200 battles in PvT a joke.
- Lets just start with the High Templar and Ghost raw stats, including their spells and abilities
-- High Templar
- Movement speed is 1.875, 80 total hp
- Has storm, which costs 75 energy and does 80 damage over time (4 sec)
- Can feedback, costs 50 which can kill ghosts one at a time.
- Both abilities have 9 range
-- Ghosts
- Movement speed is 2.25, 100 total hp
- Has snipe, 25 energy and range 10, can be queued to instacast 2x.
- Has emp, which does 100 instant damage and also removes cast energy. Also reveals cloaked units (observer)
- Also can be cloaked
- Looking at just this, its easy to see how if both players are focusing on microing their units, the terran player will always beat out the protoss player. If the templar are clumped, then 1 or 2 emps will render them useless. If they are spread, then snipe will kill them before the protoss can feedback the ghosts. In addition, ghosts can poke in and out much faster due to movement speed and cloak. If the templar are behind the colossi, or behind the ranged units, then the ghost can just emp the entire protoss army and engage.
- Also, even if the HT live to storm, the damage does is significantly less than what a blanket EMP does to the protoss army. Storm does damage over time, which is nullified to some extent by medivacs and stimmed bioball micro. The protoss cannot afford to feedback all of the medivacs, for they need energy to feedback ghosts and storm the bioball. Meanwhile, ghosts can blanket emp the entire protoss army and do 100 instant damage to all units while also removing Templar energy.
- Another problem is detection. Terran currently has 3 forms of MOBILE detection. Scans, Ravens, and EMPs. Scans have huge range, and while they trade off in terms of mule production, 200 v 200 battles usually occur in the lategame where mules are not as valuable. Ravens have utility in themselves with PDD, which can sap stalker dps when facing high Viking counts. Emps, ofcourse are already installed into the lategame Terran army with ghosts.
Protoss, on the other hand, has 1 form of mobile detection, the observer. The observer also has the disadvantage of having to be built from the Robo, which stalls colossus production. So when an observer dies, another must be built. On the other hand, emps and scans can be casted multiple times instantly without taking up any supply.
- All of these problems lead to inevitable outcome in which the terran either emps or snipes the templars, and is then free to emp the protoss army. Stim also prevents any retreat for the protoss army, and sentry forcefields are also depleted by emps.
Solution: Make the ranges equal for both respective casters. Also, im not sure why emp HAS to reveal cloaked units, especially since terran has so many other forms of detection.
There might be another solution that is far more elegant, im open to any suggestions.
Side Effects:...200 v 200 battles won't be just a formality in late game PvT
The high range of vikings makes it extremely easy for the terran to snipe observers lategame as well, and once you've done that you'll hit those EMP's and snipes without any worries. Oh so yeah, Terran will have an endless amount of MMM + Ghosts + Vikings with full upgrades? Yeah Vikings can snipe observers, but what are your stalkers for? If any protoss has an observer floating directly over a Terrans army, well thats just simply a bad protoss who dosen't know how to utilise the unit properly. Do you have any idea how expesive and time consuming it is for Terran to get ghosts let alone vikings as well in an MMM ball? Also, keep in mind Protoss can reinforce their units heaps more quicker then what terran can, you have proxy pylons ffs. I swear some people think Terran has an endless amount of money/production buildings sometimes. Also remember, Storm bloody kills... EMP dosen't! If you have an observer + blink stalkers + proxy pylon... In some respect, thats pretty much a medivac drop. Oh but thats right, somehow the with the Terrans endless amount of money + production, he will have tanks sitting in his base sieged up and defending. I just wish people could get it thorugh their heads that Terran is no where near the most flexible race! If anything, it's Zerg. I've already said it before and I'll say it again, "Zerg has upgrades that not only upgrade 1 unit but almost pretty much all units, they can transition more quickly and effectively then what Terran or Protoss can, not to mention... when it comes down to the crunch, they can reinforce units more quicker then T and P and just continously throw crap at you. Whilst they also have the most annoying harass unit in the game! MUTALISK! Oh but thats right, a Terran T1 unit (marine) can smash Mutas...... "What the hell are you doing flying your mutas over marines in the first place? It's not like it's hard to avoid marines lol! And guess what, if Terran pushes into your base with marines and all you have is mutas for the direct engagement, well thats your own damn fault for making too many. Zerg is meant to be the "reactionary race."
As the poster above me said this just happened in the korean weekly. No the terran will not always have vikings versus the observer/HT combination, but when they do the protoss is in deep shit because the vikings shoot as far as the obs can see, so there's no keeping it out of range.
A poster earlier also talked about how ghosts are faster, can cloak and has longer range on their abilities when compared to the HT which is another problem IMO. lategame fights often comes down to the micro between these two units and one of them is favored in pretty much every regard. Wouldn't it make sense for the faster unit that can also cloak to maybe have a bit shorter range on its abilities? Just an idea...
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I dont know what your argueing here. It is possible to be safe from a single dropship full of marines with spine crawlers. They can usually buy enough time for you to defend double drops as well, and thats assuming your not leaving an infestor at each base (do that!)
That's exactly what I've been saying this whole time - Zerg is supposed to respond with their fast army. Spines will buy time, but they alone won't defend an expansion, like turrets, PFs, and cannons. But a single dropship of marines will easily take on 1-2 spines. 1-2 spines at the most vulnerable spot means Zerg put at least 5 spines all around it, forcing you to engage at least some of them instead of just walking around them.
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emp is a huge problem in pvt and the ability for toss to expand safe against z and t. scouting for terran and strenghth of drops are not the problems imho.
my suggestion for the emp problem:
- make it more expensive and a slower tech. at least similar to storm.
- take away the shield drain( why the double attack for toss units? energy plus shield attack)
- make equal range? No. emp is supposed to be the counter for High templar. i wouldnt touch that.
- HT faster movement speed? yes. without khaldarin, a faster movement speed makes sense.
- give back the khaldarin amulett. it was away for toss to come back when falling behind--> used defensive.
ability for saver expand. give toss more money.
- my idea would be: make stalker 100/50.
- starting energy for nexus 25
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On October 13 2011 07:54 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 07:37 ChristianS wrote:On October 13 2011 06:08 SeaSwift wrote:On October 13 2011 06:05 ChristianS wrote: What's more, personal experience (admittedly limited) suggests to me that a one-base immortal-stalker-zealot force can kill either one in a straight-up fight. But protoss don't get immortal-stalker-zealot because they don't even need to do that to hold early Terran pushes. Emphasis mine. If you think that Protoss can get an Immortal/Stalker/Zealot force out BEFORE a 2rax hits (I assume that's what you meant by "either one" - 1-1-1 or 2rax) then there really isn't much point discussing balance with you. On October 13 2011 06:05 ChristianS wrote:
This is why specific replays are good, so we can watch a specific game and decide what the real causes of the loss really were. Many come down to a clear misread or badly microed battle, rather than some inherent game flaw. I will try and get some replays/VODs for you, but your last sentence is flawed. Unless both players are playing ABSOLUTELY perfectly, both will make mistakes. These mistakes can have different consequences - for a Terran, thinking your Zerg opponent is roach-busting so that you put down a bunker and build a Marauder or two has competely different consequences from the Zerg thinking the Terran is going for a 2base all-in and making non-stop units for nearly 5 minutes in preparation, as an example. What loses a battle or a game for one race won't for another race, which makes claiming that evidence cannot have any misreads or bad micro at some point for it to function ridiculous, as there may be many mistakes you didn't notice or deem important, simply because they had less impact. Code S Spoiler: + Show Spoiler +I reckon that IMMVP mismicroed a ton of Hellions yesterday vs Nestea - Nestea misread IMMVP's build for a 2base Thor push in one game. I would hypothesise that as a Protoss, micro as poor as some of MVP's with Hellions would outright cost you the game. As a viewer, you are unlikely to notice MVP's poor control, because it had little impact. If MC mismicroed a couple of Void Rays/Phoenix in the same fashion and they were quickly sniped, as a viewer that would be noticed a lot more because it would have a far greater impact on the game. Basically, for you to take into account EVERY alleged misread or bad piece of micro requires a completely objective viewer, and we don't have that, so we have to work with what we have. In the end, it will come down to opinion, trying to back those opinions up with what little hard evidence we can find. As I said, I'll get some replays/VODs for you, but don't expect to get a miracle change of perspective. Given that so many posts on this thread consist of "I lost to this strat, so it's strong, which means its imba," I hardly feel bad about acknowledging my own experience with some builds. But in the absence of a VOD for support, your claim that 2-rax can only be held by one base gateway, and 1-1-1 can only be held by early expand -> robo is just a statement of your personal experience. Mis-micro has varying consequences depending on the situation in which the micro is done badly. Mis-micro'ing fungals can lose you all your infestors. Mis-micro'ing ghosts can lose you all your ghosts. Mis-micro'ing colossi can result in them being off in the open without stalker support, often losing you your colossi. As a rule, the more mobile the unit, the less it hurts to mis-micro. So hellions don't hurt too much, nor do zerglings. But Terran hardly has an advantage here, since they are hardly the most mobile race. Hellions are an exception to a rule of T armies that are either: mech (perhaps the least mobile army in SC2), bio (more mobile than colossi force, less mobile than mass gateway), or sky terran (more mobile than ground forces, but less mobile than any other race's air). Conc shell punishes bad micro more. But if you see that a Terran has conc shell, you can pretty much cross off 1-1-1. And FG and force field punish bad micro more than conc shell does. Of course everyone makes mistakes. But if a game was lost because a Protoss couldn't scout a Terran between 1-1-1 and 2-rax, and guessed wrong because there was no way they could have differentiated between the two, then that would be evident in the replay. It would not appear that they lost because of a mis-micro or a bad read on available information; it would appear that the information was not there, and they had no other choice. As a side note, what kind of 2rax are we talking about? I assume you don't mean the gasless 11rax-12 rax. That opening is a joke against Protoss. So do you mean a push with a couple marauders and 3-5 marines, maybe a couple pulled SCV's? Combat shield push? Stim push? Fast ghost push? These hit at different times. I'm almost certain a 2gate robo can get out immortals by the time a stim push happens, but of course it can't against an 11rax-12rax. Specificity about the build you are having trouble with is really flat out necessary in a balance discussion. I'm left here wondering why you even think you should be discussing this, if you need to ask what people mean by 1/1/1, and what version of 2 rax they're referring to... This isn't the "provide multiple replays, so ChristianS can educate himself on popular TvP builds" thread. You seem to think statements like "a 2 rax will almost always kill the natural Nexus against 1 Gate FE" or "the Protoss needs an expansion to be able to hold a 1/1/1 all-in" are somehow controversial. They really aren't. They're pretty much an accepted consensus among decent players. Yet you come in here and not only do you not know these builds, but you demand that we provide you with educational material and proof that this is indeed the case. These is a certain base level of knowledge required for a discussion to be possible. You can't discuss astronomy with someone demanding proof that the Earth is round.
Hell, I didn't even ask for multiple replays. Ambiguous terminology is ambiguous. I'm aware that the very early 1-2 marauders, 3-5 marines, 0-3 scv push is popular. I'm also aware that it's not by any means a kill move. 1 gate expand is greedy, and everyone has known that for a very long time. But again, if you're going to make extraordinary claims and not back them with evidence, there's no real reason people shouldn't dismiss you. You're not arguing, you're venting.
As for not being able to hold a 1-1-1 without a 1-gate expand, I'm afraid that is simply not so certain as the earth being round. It's conventional wisdom that you should expand against a 1-1-1, but that doesn't mean it can't be held, or that no 1-base composition can beat it. I can just as easily assert that I have seen Protoss beat 1-1-1's with 2 gate expo's, 2 gate robo's, etc. (and I'm fairly certain I have), but without a replay (which I don't have), there's no reason for my unsupported assertions to have any weight.
If you have more than one gateway and Terran does early 2-rax pressure, it is not going to kill you (or even take a lead, but that depends on the micro of both players). And if you tell me there is no build besides 1gate expand that can hold a 1-1-1, I simply don't believe you. And if Protoss players cry to Blizzard that they can't find any response besides going 1-gate expand or Nexus first and taking an absurd economic lead to beat 1-1-1, Blizzard can and should tell them that patching the game is not a substitute for Protoss players having to come up with creative builds in response to new challenges.
"Terran has too many options" is not a substitute for supporting evidence. "You don't have enough experience with the game" is not a substitute for supporting evidence. "I want to be able to do greedy builds without being punished" is not a substitute for supporting evidence.
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EPT
