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On October 12 2011 13:25 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +Roaches aren't even good against hellions actually. If Terran only went reactor hellion, going roaches will put you behind. If Terran goes reactor hellion expand and focuses on macro, just making 2-4 hellions and then setting up for a fast tank/rine timing push, and you reacted with 5+ roaches, you lose, no way around it. I really dont think so. My Zerg practise partner always makes 3-5 roaches against my 6 reactor hellions. Then I transition into a fast tank push and usually I turn around (unless he took a third and is getting infestors) cause I know it wont work. I'm not sure why you think its autolose to make 5 roaches, what are you delaying so much that you cant defend the usual tank push (only with less tanks!).
This. It's always silly to me when people complain:
a) T walled off, so I have no idea what's in his base!
b) He's denying creep spread/killing my drones with 4 hellions!
How am I supposed to stop him from killing my drones? And how do I tell what he's doing even if I hold off the harass?
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So you you saw 4 hellions, and you have no idea what's in his base? Sure, there's more than one Terran build that involves getting a fast factory with reactor / 2 fast factories. On a lot of maps, you should have been able to scout the gas-before-rax and know that hellions were a strong possibility. Even if you didn't, though, and you only saw the 4 fast hellions, you still have a much shorter list of possibilities. Banshees are definitely possible, and you probably need to have overseers/spores up in time for that. Big mech play is definitely possible, in which case it will be a while before you have to worry about more than hellion harass (thus the 3-5 roaches), and you can easily get an overseer in (now at lower cost!) well before anything scary comes out. Or he could play passive and expand–zerg left alone generally has a stronger economy than T left alone, so you're fine. Or he can transition from hellion to tank (delayed his tanks for the hellions, but still powerful), and 5 roaches will never put you too far behind to hold off a marine-tank push that is either later, or lighter on tanks because the factory was busy making hellions.
Every time your opponent is on your screen in any capacity, and a lot of times when they're not, you are getting scouting information. Use it. If you're lucky you'll get the opportunity to see his entire main, but good players don't rely on getting such absurdly lucky amounts of scouting information early on.
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T's ability to deny scouting by wall-off is an enormous early game advantage. "Traditional" 1-1-1 in PvT looks to have run its course, and these days what T does is keep P guessing by simply building a refinery, chasing out a probe, and finishing the depot wall. 9 out of 10 games or so T successfully duped P in one way or another. In the one game where P had the gut to bluff, he died to cloak banshee. XD (Polt v Trickster in WCG Qualifier)
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Making 3-5 roaches vs more than 2 hellions is always good. You cannot argue that because you would have more drones had you made 0 units you are "behind". You will still have more drones, and you'd be surpised how ahead you are if you keep them all alive.
Actually, if you make 5 roaches against someone who made only 4 hellions and then macro'd hardcore into tank/rine timing push, you will almost surely die. You have no idea how expensive roaches are, and how far behind your economy will be if you made 5 roaches, then if you made no roaches at all and just droned up with just a few extra queens or spines as defense instead. You'll be in about a 10 supply deficit, maybe more, and that's big considering roaches are very supply heavy.
My Zerg practise partner always makes 3-5 roaches against my 6 reactor hellions. Then I transition into a fast tank push and usually I turn around (unless he took a third and is getting infestors) cause I know it wont work. I'm not sure why you think its autolose to make 5 roaches, what are you delaying so much that you cant defend the usual tank push (only with less tanks!).
I mean... it's great what you and your practice partner do, but a better way to gauge this is to just play zerg by yourself and only make 1 spines (sufficient to defend against reactor hellions) and pure drones and get lair. Then try doing the same thing, but make 5 roaches from a 4:30 roach warren and no spines instead. Your lair will be delayed by quite a bit, but I guess if you don't play Zerg and aren't used to normal timings, maybe a better way to put is is check how many drones you have, when. Watch the 2 replays, and compare drone counts and income throughout until 50 drones are reached.
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On the old IdrA scouting imbalance argument:
Yeah, Terran can wall off pretty easily. Reapers and scans being pretty impractical for most purposes, I don't actually see how Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him. Reapers can be denied as easily as an overlord scout. Scan can be denied by... well, not putting your buildings in predictable places. Terrans don't use scan for scout so often largely because it's a big cost and it's too much of a coin-flip as to whether you will actually see something useful.
But the argument, as I understand it, is not that Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him, but that Terran has so many options, each requiring a different response, so that Terran can afford to play blind where his opponents cannot.
At the start of a game, neither player has scouting information on the other. Then they both have scouting information for as long as they can keep their scout worker in the opponent's base (zergs used to use the extractor steal and cancel to extend this period; don't know why that stopped). Then both players are limited to partial scouts (scouting the front, keeping map awareness) until they can get something into the opponent's base (overlord, overseer, observer, some air unit). In this time period, both players have relative scouting immunity. If they attack or reveal any units during this time, they sacrifice their scouting immunity by revealing those units; the more units they reveal, the more they have sacrificed their scouting immunity.
Scouting immunity can be broken by sneaking a unit into the enemy base (suicide overlord/suicide reaper/scouting the front), but those options are risky/do not give you a full picture. If you do a large attack during this period, you sacrifice scouting immunity, but also force your opponent to give up scouting immunity, since they have to bring their units forward to defend.
So if any race has options which are unscoutable, since they are indistinguishable from other builds at early stages and make their hit before the scouting immunity period ends, and the response to this build would mean a loss for the opponent if they did it against another build, that would constitute a coin flip (which is possibly imbalance and probably bad game design). This is the allegation against Terran.
But if that is the case, there needs to be proof:
-What Terran builds fall in this category?
-What response is required?
-What position does it put you in if you do this response blind and he doesn't do this build? If you don't do this response and he does the build? If you do the response as a reaction once he moves out with the build?
-Are there any attacks you could use based on early game scout that would come in time to scout this?
-What information could scouting the front provide re. this build?
It's not enough to say "Terran has such a wide variety of possibilities." To make an extraordinary claim like "imbalance," you need to specify what the build(s) is/are and answer the above questions, ideally with replays for supporting evidence (so people can't say "no, that's not what happens with that build").
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On October 12 2011 15:44 ChristianS wrote:
But if that is the case, there needs to be proof:
-What Terran builds fall in this category?
-What response is required?
-What position does it put you in if you do this response blind and he doesn't do this build? If you don't do this response and he does the build? If you do the response as a reaction once he moves out with the build?
-Are there any attacks you could use based on early game scout that would come in time to scout this?
-What information could scouting the front provide re. this build?
Do you honestly not see Terran successfully deceiving Protoss with their wall-off? I did not read through your theory-crafting because my aforementioned question should answer whatever question of yours. For god's sake even Terrans acknowledge how they duped Protoss opponents in post-match interviews.
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Deception plays do not constitute imbalance. Coin flip plays do not even necessarily constitute imbalance (a 6pool is almost certainly a coin flip, but hardly imbalanced). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and global imbalance is almost certainly an extraordinary claim. I really don't see how you can claim imbalance without being able to answer the aforementioned questions satisfactorily.
If you can't answer them, please tell me how you can conclude the game is imbalanced without what seems like pretty basic evidence. If you think they can be answered but don't want to find and compile the information... is it really so much to ask that people inform their opinions before voicing them so emphatically?
If there's any fault in those questions, its that they don't require a strenuous enough burden of proof. One could imagine builds answering those questions satisfactorily that don't necessarily constitute imbalance.
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On October 12 2011 15:44 ChristianS wrote:
On the old IdrA scouting imbalance argument:
Yeah, Terran can wall off pretty easily. Reapers and scans being pretty impractical for most purposes, I don't actually see how Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him. Reapers can be denied as easily as an overlord scout. Scan can be denied by... well, not putting your buildings in predictable places. Terrans don't use scan for scout so often largely because it's a big cost and it's too much of a coin-flip as to whether you will actually see something useful.
Hiding your buildings is a gamble and no good player will want to base his play on it, and the reason most players put their tech in the middle of their base is to be able to defend them from drops, if you place it in the corners of your base it is extremely easy for the terran to kill it off before you have any chance to react.
But the argument, as I understand it, is not that Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him, but that Terran has so many options, each requiring a different response, so that Terran can afford to play blind where his opponents cannot.
Then you understand wrong because terran can certainly scout better since they can scan. You scout the front and if that is not satisfactory you scan, protoss just prays he makes the correct guess.
At the start of a game, neither player has scouting information on the other. Then they both have scouting information for as long as they can keep their scout worker in the opponent's base (zergs used to use the extractor steal and cancel to extend this period; don't know why that stopped). Then both players are limited to partial scouts (scouting the front, keeping map awareness) until they can get something into the opponent's base (overlord, overseer, observer, some air unit). In this time period, both players have relative scouting immunity. If they attack or reveal any units during this time, they sacrifice their scouting immunity by revealing those units; the more units they reveal, the more they have sacrificed their scouting immunity.
Scouting immunity can be broken by sneaking a unit into the enemy base (suicide overlord/suicide reaper/scouting the front), but those options are risky/do not give you a full picture. If you do a large attack during this period, you sacrifice scouting immunity, but also force your opponent to give up scouting immunity, since they have to bring their units forward to defend.
Yes zerg can suicide overlords and terran can suicide reapers(and scan) but protoss can't do shit until obs. Some argue that hallucination is a valid option but it comes so late that it's more of a replacement for the obs in which case you're gambling that he's not going for anything cloaked. Yes you can attack his front, but that either means you're attacking with a very small army that can lose you the game if it turns out he has conc shells, or you're attacking with a decent size army but that means you have to do quite a bit of damage or be behind.
I think the fact that terran can swap addons between buildings is straight up retarded, it gives them this ridiculous ability to tech up to everything by just advancing down their tech tree, scouting a tech lab on a barracks or seeing a marauder doesn't mean anything because that tech lab could be swapped unto a starport or a factory now, while if a terran sees a shimmer in their base they fucking know i spent 200/100 on a robo and that I'm stuck with that tech, there won't be any stargate or templars in quite a while.
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On October 12 2011 17:41 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 15:44 ChristianS wrote:
On the old IdrA scouting imbalance argument:
Yeah, Terran can wall off pretty easily. Reapers and scans being pretty impractical for most purposes, I don't actually see how Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him. Reapers can be denied as easily as an overlord scout. Scan can be denied by... well, not putting your buildings in predictable places. Terrans don't use scan for scout so often largely because it's a big cost and it's too much of a coin-flip as to whether you will actually see something useful. Hiding your buildings is a gamble and no good player will want to base his play on it, and the reason most players put their tech in the middle of their base is to be able to defend them from drops, if you place it in the corners of your base it is extremely easy for the terran to kill it off before you have any chance to react. Show nested quote +But the argument, as I understand it, is not that Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him, but that Terran has so many options, each requiring a different response, so that Terran can afford to play blind where his opponents cannot. Then you understand wrong because terran can certainly scout better since they can scan. You scout the front and if that is not satisfactory you scan, protoss just prays he makes the correct guess. Show nested quote +At the start of a game, neither player has scouting information on the other. Then they both have scouting information for as long as they can keep their scout worker in the opponent's base (zergs used to use the extractor steal and cancel to extend this period; don't know why that stopped). Then both players are limited to partial scouts (scouting the front, keeping map awareness) until they can get something into the opponent's base (overlord, overseer, observer, some air unit). In this time period, both players have relative scouting immunity. If they attack or reveal any units during this time, they sacrifice their scouting immunity by revealing those units; the more units they reveal, the more they have sacrificed their scouting immunity.
Scouting immunity can be broken by sneaking a unit into the enemy base (suicide overlord/suicide reaper/scouting the front), but those options are risky/do not give you a full picture. If you do a large attack during this period, you sacrifice scouting immunity, but also force your opponent to give up scouting immunity, since they have to bring their units forward to defend. Yes zerg can suicide overlords and terran can suicide reapers(and scan) but protoss can't do shit until obs. Some argue that hallucination is a valid option but it comes so late that it's more of a replacement for the obs in which case you're gambling that he's not going for anything cloaked. Yes you can attack his front, but that either means you're attacking with a very small army that can lose you the game if it turns out he has conc shells, or you're attacking with a decent size army but that means you have to do quite a bit of damage or be behind. I think the fact that terran can swap addons between buildings is straight up retarded, it gives them this ridiculous ability to tech up to everything by just advancing down their tech tree, scouting a tech lab on a barracks or seeing a marauder doesn't mean anything because that tech lab could be swapped unto a starport or a factory now, while if a terran sees a shimmer in their base they fucking know i spent 200/100 on a robo and that I'm stuck with that tech, there won't be any stargate or templars in quite a while.
Thats how Nada tricked Alicia a couple seasons ago. He made a marauder and a couple marines. Alicia scouted and thought it was a marauder expand. But Nada then switched to a 1-1-1 and crushed Alicia. It was on Terminus.
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On October 12 2011 17:41 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 15:44 ChristianS wrote:
On the old IdrA scouting imbalance argument:
Yeah, Terran can wall off pretty easily. Reapers and scans being pretty impractical for most purposes, I don't actually see how Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him. Reapers can be denied as easily as an overlord scout. Scan can be denied by... well, not putting your buildings in predictable places. Terrans don't use scan for scout so often largely because it's a big cost and it's too much of a coin-flip as to whether you will actually see something useful. Hiding your buildings is a gamble and no good player will want to base his play on it, and the reason most players put their tech in the middle of their base is to be able to defend them from drops, if you place it in the corners of your base it is extremely easy for the terran to kill it off before you have any chance to react.
Scanning is the same gamble as hiding your buildings and no good player will want to base his play on it.
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What? How is scanning a gamble like hiding buildings? Once you reach full scv saturation you only pay a small opportunity cost relative to the expected value of the scan. Between scans to see teh general layout of a base/ probably the tech and army comp no terran army should be surprised (Maybe sneak dts, but by that point you should have scans on hand/ can afford a turret).
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On October 12 2011 18:20 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 17:41 pezit wrote:On October 12 2011 15:44 ChristianS wrote:
On the old IdrA scouting imbalance argument:
Yeah, Terran can wall off pretty easily. Reapers and scans being pretty impractical for most purposes, I don't actually see how Terran can scout his opponents better than they can scout him. Reapers can be denied as easily as an overlord scout. Scan can be denied by... well, not putting your buildings in predictable places. Terrans don't use scan for scout so often largely because it's a big cost and it's too much of a coin-flip as to whether you will actually see something useful. Hiding your buildings is a gamble and no good player will want to base his play on it, and the reason most players put their tech in the middle of their base is to be able to defend them from drops, if you place it in the corners of your base it is extremely easy for the terran to kill it off before you have any chance to react. Scanning is the same gamble as hiding your buildings and no good player will want to base his play on it.
Hiding buildings is mainly bad because of my second point which you ignored, drops will kill off your tech. That's why you want pylons on the edges not your tech buildings.
Scanning will always give you some information, more often than not it will give you enough information for it to be worth it.
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Scans usually don't come until after the end of the scouting immunity period, because most of the time, nothing all that important comes in that period. So you can probably have obs or hallucination by the time Terrans can afford to cut a MULE in favor of a scan anyway.
It's true that Terran and Zerg can sacrifice ovies or reaper/scan, while Protoss has no such gamble scout. My point was that this is not a huge loss for Protoss, since those sacrifices are gambles at best, and they aren't that much faster than more standard scouting, i.e. obs or overseers. Terran actually doesn't have any more standard scouting that becomes available at this point; floating buildings become more viable later on, but those are still pretty rare. Players have scouting immunity against Terran simply because they know that Terran can't very well afford to throw down scans until later on (300 mins at 4 minutes is a lot more valuable than 300 mins at 12 minutes).
The point of scouting is to rule out possibilities; a zerg scouts the protoss to see sentry count, so he can rule out DTs. But scans don't reliably help with ruling things out. If you see his army, then great. If you see a robo, then great. If you see a dark shrine, then great. But buildings like dark shrines are generally put in unlikely scan locations, and a robotics facility tells you... what? That he's not going 4-gate, yes. Is he immortal pushing? Obs rushing? One-base colossus? 1 gate robo expand into proxy double stargate? What if you see, say, 2 warpgates and a cyb core?
Targeted scouting is much more effective. Either see everything, so you can really know what's going on, or see army composition with an attack, so you know how much he's putting into army and how much he's putting into something else, or scout some specific factor that you know rules out specific possibilities (e.g. scouting gas timings to know what builds are available). With a scan, you don't know what information it will give you, so it's difficult to base your build on the information you get (forcing Terran to play reactionary, as other comments have suggested Terran forces the other races to do).
As a side note, if you're so offended by Terran being able to produce any unit one at a time (an extremely inefficient army composition, by the way), are you equally offended by zerg being able to tech switch into any unit merely by building a single associated tech structure? Terran does not have the easiest time tech switching–not by a long shot. It's only arguably better than Protoss; tech lab switching eliminates the limitation Terran has (that other races do not) of not being able to build most available units without a tech lab on the building.
To elaborate on that, the barracks starts with one available unit, gains two with a tech lab add-on, and gains another with a tech structure. Gateways, by comparison, start with one available unit, but gain two just with a cyb core as a tech structure (you only need one total, not one per gateway), effectively meaning you have three units right off the bat where terran has one, and another two (and one of those is a reaper!) only by making a tech lab per barracks. With two additonal tech structures protoss can get another unit from their gateways plus an archon, effectively meaning two units, and with three additional tech structures, they can get a third additional unit. That means Protoss have six viable units they can switch to at any time from a mass gateway style, in as high a production rate as they have gateway count, just by getting three tech structures that are completely in line with the mass gateway style.
With a 1-1-1, Terran has essentially nine different viable units (I'm going to go ahead and not count reapers or battlecruisers), but he can only produce them one at a time. And Protoss tech switches have a huge upgrade advantage: going mass archon? Guess you should get your weapons upgrades and armor upgrades. How about mass colossus? Well, maybe some weapons and armor upgrades. How about blink stalker? DT harass? Warp prism zealot drops? Stalker+sentry ball? Same upgrades for each one. The only tech switch Protoss would need other upgrades for is an air tech switch, and when does Protoss actually do that?
In short, zerg has the fastest tech switches, since their production facilities can be rededicated to whatever unit they want, and protoss tech switches have the best upgrades, since protoss upgrades apply to all the units they generally use anyway. What exactly is Terran's tech advantage? That they can make any of their units one at a time by switching tech labs, but they still have to get separate upgrades for each tech switch anyway? In what world is that an advantage?
Protoss could do that, too, actually. Just get one gateway, one robo, and one stargate. The reason they don't is because it sucks, because you can't get very many of any unit if you don't have a lot of production facilities for it.
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On October 12 2011 16:21 ChristianS wrote:
Deception plays do not constitute imbalance. Coin flip plays do not even necessarily constitute imbalance (a 6pool is almost certainly a coin flip, but hardly imbalanced). Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and global imbalance is almost certainly an extraordinary claim. I really don't see how you can claim imbalance without being able to answer the aforementioned questions satisfactorily.
The reason it's harder to play against terran is simply because they can deceive more easily than the other two races, while being hard to deceive. Terran have the only scouting method that cannot be denied, further adding to their information advantage (the other methods: walls, buildings that can be placed anywhere on the map w/out any supporting infrastructure, marine patrols, etc.)
On October 12 2011 19:41 ChristianS wrote:
As a side note, if you're so offended by Terran being able to produce any unit one at a time (an extremely inefficient army composition, by the way), are you equally offended by zerg being able to tech switch into any unit merely by building a single associated tech structure? Terran does not have the easiest time tech switching–not by a long shot. It's only arguably better than Protoss; tech lab switching eliminates the limitation Terran has (that other races do not) of not being able to build most available units without a tech lab on the building.
The Terran tech advantage is that they don't need any. The Armory is the first true tech building produced (unless ghost rushing), all the others are actually production facilities.
On October 12 2011 19:41 ChristianS wrote:
With a 1-1-1, Terran has essentially nine different viable units (I'm going to go ahead and not count reapers or battlecruisers), but he can only produce them one at a time.
You don't realize how uniquely amazing it is to unlock the entire tech tree on such a fast, simple build? Perhaps the awesomeness might become more clear if you consider it from the opponent's perspective. How vastly different is the required response if Terran chooses to build one unit vs. another? The appropriate response to banshees, for example, is vastly different than the right reaction against marauders, or hellions, or siege tanks, or a whole bunch of marines. What's more, non-Terran unit compositions aren't nearly as flexible. For example, roaches are great against hellions and/or marines, but auto-lose against tanks, maruaders, or banshees.
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So here's the problem (yes, that IdrA has voiced many times) that we cannot seem to escape: Terran is really hard to scout and preparing for the wrong build is usually deadly. Preparing for the right build can put the Zerg or Protoss is a good position, but that is often just guesswork. These points lead to the initiative that VoirDire was talking about: where Terran mindgames/metagaming/metagame shifts can be devastating. Simply look at the BFH dominated MLG Anaheim for evidence of that effect.
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On October 12 2011 15:44 ChristianS wrote:
But if that is the case, there needs to be proof:
-What Terran builds fall in this category?
-What response is required?
-What position does it put you in if you do this response blind and he doesn't do this build? If you don't do this response and he does the build? If you do the response as a reaction once he moves out with the build?
-Are there any attacks you could use based on early game scout that would come in time to scout this?
-What information could scouting the front provide re. this build?
I'll bite.
- 2rax/1-1-1 vs Protoss.
- Response for 2rax: play safe, get lots of units early to defend with, don't make an early expansion because it will get sniped
- Response for 1-1-1: You HAVE to early expand (either 16 Nexus or 1gate expand), then power probes for a while and then put up 4/5 gates and a Robo for Obs/Immortals.
- If you play safe and get lots of units early to defend with, and don't make an expansion, then you straight up die to the 1-1-1 which hits later on. You CANNOT defend a decently executed 1-1-1 on 1base.
- If you early expand and get hit by a 2rax your expansion gets sniped and you are far behind.
- Scouting: the first probe scout gets chased out by the first Marine or two, if there is a naked rax, or even one with a tech lab, the build could be a 2rax (several different types), a 3rax, a 1rax FE (of a few possible types) or a 1-1-1. The next possible scout is with the Zealot/Stalker poke, which if you leave your base with when the 2rax hits you die, and you almost always sacrifice the Zealot because of the vision up ramps change. If there is a 2rax with Marauders and concussive, your Stalker dies too because it gets hit once and then is caught. Your opponent then walks to your base and you die. Thus the Zealot/Stalker poke is a massive gamble. The next possible scout is an Observer, which comes after a 2rax push and if you haven't already expanded and you see a 1-1-1, you are dead. So NO, there are no effective scouting ways to tell which one you might get.
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On October 13 2011 01:51 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 15:44 ChristianS wrote:
But if that is the case, there needs to be proof:
-What Terran builds fall in this category?
-What response is required?
-What position does it put you in if you do this response blind and he doesn't do this build? If you don't do this response and he does the build? If you do the response as a reaction once he moves out with the build?
-Are there any attacks you could use based on early game scout that would come in time to scout this?
-What information could scouting the front provide re. this build? I'll bite. - 2rax/1-1-1 vs Protoss. - Response for 2rax: play safe, get lots of units early to defend with, don't make an early expansion because it will get sniped - Response for 1-1-1: You HAVE to early expand (either 16 Nexus or 1gate expand), then power probes for a while and then put up 4/5 gates and a Robo for Obs/Immortals. - If you play safe and get lots of units early to defend with, and don't make an expansion, then you straight up die to the 1-1-1 which hits later on. You CANNOT defend a decently executed 1-1-1 on 1base. - If you early expand and get hit by a 2rax your expansion gets sniped and you are far behind. - Scouting: the first probe scout gets chased out by the first Marine or two, if there is a naked rax, or even one with a tech lab, the build could be a 2rax (several different types), a 3rax, a 1rax FE (of a few possible types) or a 1-1-1. The next possible scout is with the Zealot/Stalker poke, which if you leave your base with when the 2rax hits you die, and you almost always sacrifice the Zealot because of the vision up ramps change. If there is a 2rax with Marauders and concussive, your Stalker dies too because it gets hit once and then is caught. Your opponent then walks to your base and you die. Thus the Zealot/Stalker poke is a massive gamble. The next possible scout is an Observer, which comes after a 2rax push and if you haven't already expanded and you see a 1-1-1, you are dead. So NO, there are no effective scouting ways to tell which one you might get.
And then there's also the possibility of the Terran only mining enough gas for a reactor, and then throwing down a CC. Then if you try a "middle of the road" build - 1 Gate Robo or 2 Gate Robo and an expansion, and cancel Nexus if it's a 2 rax - you'll be way behind against his fast CC.
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Okay. So what kind of 1-1-1 are we talking about? A cloakshee rush can be held easily enough. If you really want to be safe against both, get a forge and a pylon in your main minerals, then throw down a forge if you see the banshee out. If we're talking some kind of banshee-thor-marine all-in, then those are certainly harder to hold, but they hit a lot later. After a certain point you should know that a 2rax is not coming, since those generally hit before a certain point, and if he expanded, you should be able to scout that when he moves the CC down to his expansion, if not earlier.
Replays? Those are always really great.
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On October 13 2011 03:09 ChristianS wrote:
Okay. So what kind of 1-1-1 are we talking about? A cloakshee rush can be held easily enough. If you really want to be safe against both, get a forge and a pylon in your main minerals, then throw down a forge if you see the banshee out. If we're talking some kind of banshee-thor-marine all-in, then those are certainly harder to hold, but they hit a lot later. After a certain point you should know that a 2rax is not coming, since those generally hit before a certain point, and if he expanded, you should be able to scout that when he moves the CC down to his expansion, if not earlier.
Replays? Those are always really great.
I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Look at all those options for one base play. 20 flavors of all-in that can all look exactly like a fast expasion build. The protoss has responses to all of those, if they know they are comming in advance.
People are discussing scouting and believe it is one of the main causes of protoss difficultly with terran in the current metagame.
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On October 13 2011 03:09 ChristianS wrote:
Okay. So what kind of 1-1-1 are we talking about? A cloakshee rush can be held easily enough. If you really want to be safe against both, get a forge and a pylon in your main minerals, then throw down a forge if you see the banshee out. If we're talking some kind of banshee-thor-marine all-in, then those are certainly harder to hold, but they hit a lot later. After a certain point you should know that a 2rax is not coming, since those generally hit before a certain point, and if he expanded, you should be able to scout that when he moves the CC down to his expansion, if not earlier.
Replays? Those are always really great.
1-1-1 hits pretty much when the banshee first comes out, with a bunch of rines 2-3 tanks and 1 banshee with no cloak.
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Here's a radical suggestion. I have issues with fellow Protoss doing nothing but cannon rushing so answer me this one...
What would happen if it was changed so that the forge had to come after the gateway?
(I am aware that the aggressive pool builds would have to be shut down in order for this to work. Any advice on that?)
Although my main problem is still carriers. Carriers must be redone and I will not shut up about it. (Any word on the new Protoss unit in Heart of the Swarm, seeing as both Terran and Zerg got one? From the screenshots it actually looks like Zerg are getting a LOT of new ones...if they get too many won't that completely throw off game balance?)
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^ Aggressive pool builds don't work well against Protoss in general, unless they go nexus first. Against FFE forge first, they will be slightly behind but still in the game.
The problem with what you're suggesting is that no more FFE play. Personally I don't think FFE is that good, but a lot of Protoss do, and it would limit Protoss' options. On maps like Tal Darim where there is no ramp, FFE is really preferable for defensive reasons. Cannon rushes can be easily held off with workers, if you are losing to cannon rushes then you are probably just playing at a low level or making blunders you should be able to identify. It looks like you play Protoss, so I would suggest you scout with your pylon or gateway warping probe and make sure the opponent has a gateway in his base, otherwise you know he's doing some kind of cheese. Always be aware of the enemy probe in your base, you should know when he comes in because your pylon in your base is by the ramp.
Carriers are fine, it's just the unit they counter (siege tanks) aren't used in late-game PvT like in BW.
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EPT
