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On October 30 2014 00:12 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 00:09 Meavis wrote:On October 30 2014 00:04 parkufarku wrote:On October 29 2014 23:58 TheDwf wrote:On October 29 2014 23:54 parkufarku wrote:
Game is now balanced. Yep. Around 2 races. At least I made changes t hat made remotely some sense and addressed some issues that people on this thread were talking about. If the game balance was in your hands, you would have Terran start the game with 10 SCVs, Banshees perma-stealth mode, all Terran units are now free, and you would still deny that the race is broken. how fucking delusional are you, your changes make the terran race completely unplayable, with super cost inefficient mines, no building swapping and even more expensive medivacs is inable of holding the slightest of aggresion. also thedwf has never made any suggestions even near that as far I can recall. completely unplayable? no. a large nerf? yes. mines would still be incredibly powerful; the cost increase is justified for how strong they are, and not hitting air units would be something that would help PvT and they are mostly used as Zerg ground units anyway. The tiny 25 gas increase for medivac is huge? How many medivacs do you see mid-game, about 5 or 6? 6 times 25 = not even 200 gas and it addresses the too cost efficient bio army
Laughable.
A 25% increase IS huge. Just have HTs on 200 gas, or Collosi on 250? Doesn't matter, right?
Learn to play.
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On October 29 2014 23:54 parkufarku wrote:
Carriers
Build time decreased by 20 seconds
Widow Mine
No longer can hit air units.
Cost increased to 100 minerals / 150 gas
Hellbats
Life reduced by 20
Medivacs
Gas cost increased to 125
Terran buildings
Requires a research for lift, which costs 150/150. Can be researched at Orbital
Corrupters
Attack speed increased by 20%
Hydras
New ability: Toxin Spine (Will now decrease all regeneration or healing done by 50% for units hit by Hydras. Mostly intended to decrease bio healing effectiveness)
Damage increased by 3
Marine
Stim'd marines now attack 20% slower
Storm
Storm duration reduced by 2 seconds, but deals the same amount of damage as before over its duration.
Game is now balanced.
HAHAHAHAHA, someone is struggling against Terran lately?
Let's see
Carriers: agreed. They build way too slow.
Widow Mine: nope, that's way too harsh. Maybe reducing the +40 to shields to +20 is fair? But your suggestion is just flat out awful.
Hellbats: that seems like too much
Medivacs: nope, Terrans need them vs. allins and delaying them is iffy
Research for lift: at this point I'm pretty sure you're trolling. How am I going to lift to the gold and CC first to the other gold in team games after this nerf? No way. Plus, what's the point? Adding research requirements for things is a way of delaying them. What's the need to delay lifting???
Corruptors with 20% higher damage output based on... what exactly? What necessitates this?
Hydras: Your Hydra buff (3 damage) will wreck PvZ. The toxins thing might be the only interesting thing you've mentioned. Perhaps it makes Roach Hydra viable vs MMM in a non-allin way?
Marine nerf: This will absolutely wreck Terran in Pvt and ZvT
Templar buff: This will make Storm SO MUCH STRONGER. I wish, lol (I play Protoss) but it seems unfair. Storm is pretty strong as is.
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Ok. Maybe the storm is a little too powerful. But I added it in because Storms in BW used to be exciting and rewarding, while Storms in SC2 seems lackluster.
Let's be honest. Hellbat is too tanky for its cost. Research for lift is something that only seems fair seeing how Zergs are expected to pay money to research burrow. Flying buildings is an incredible advantage and definitely a huge advantage in base-trades as well.
Corrupters cost a lot, but they are not that great at air battles. See Corrupters and Mutas vs. Vikings, Raven PDDs with support.
Hydra buffs ARE necessary, because as of now, they are 'not great' vs Colossus P army and absolutely terrible against upgraded bio ball.
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On October 30 2014 00:02 JCoto wrote:It's not hydras what should decrease healing. It's fungal. Fungal hardly damages a heavy MMM. Show nested quote +On October 29 2014 23:56 Meavis wrote:On October 29 2014 23:54 parkufarku wrote:
Carriers
Build time decreased by 20 seconds
Widow Mine
No longer can hit air units.
Cost increased to 100 minerals / 150 gas
Hellbats
Life reduced by 20
Medivacs
Gas cost increased to 125
Terran buildings
Requires a research for lift, which costs 150/150. Can be researched at Orbital
Corrupters
Attack speed increased by 20%
Hydras
New ability: Toxin Spine (Will now decrease all regeneration or healing done by 50% for units hit by Hydras. Mostly intended to decrease bio healing effectiveness)
Damage increased by 3
Marine
Stim'd marines now attack 20% slower
Storm
Storm duration reduced by 2 seconds, but deals the same amount of damage as before over its duration.
Game is now biased.
fixed
Yeah it's really tough to get a hydra based army to work since the only real AoE zerg has is banelings. I'm trying my best since I don't like playing muta bane, but would love if fungal could do some real damage, you can even nerf the root part of it to death if you want, just give me some AoE that isn't banelings.
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Marine
Stim'd marines now attack 20% slower
After stim the marines attack 20% slower? :p
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On October 30 2014 00:30 SatedSC2 wrote:If you're really worried about Hellbats then a better solution to Hellbats would be: I don't see why a Factory unit should be healed by a Medivac. Meh. More logic issue than balance issue xD
Because the hellion transforms to allow the person inside (driver) to operate it like a mechwarrior unit which exposes the driver's body to damage and healing. Now, why don't we discuss the super armor bio units have to avoid dying after a few bullets to the body.
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On October 30 2014 00:30 SatedSC2 wrote:If you're really worried about Hellbats then a better solution to Hellbats would be: I don't see why a Factory unit should be healed by a Medivac. Meh. More logic issue than balance issue xD
hellions > hellbats anyway, who needs hp or cone splash when you have kiting and longer linear splash.
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On October 30 2014 00:29 parkufarku wrote:
Ok. Maybe the storm is a little too powerful. But I added it in because Storms in BW used to be exciting and rewarding, while Storms in SC2 seems lackluster.
Let's be honest. Hellbat is too tanky for its cost. Research for lift is something that only seems fair seeing how Zergs are expected to pay money to research burrow. Flying buildings is an incredible advantage and definitely a huge advantage in base-trades as well.
Corrupters cost a lot, but they are not that great at air battles. See Corrupters and Mutas vs. Vikings, Raven PDDs with support.
Hydra buffs ARE necessary, because as of now, they are 'not great' vs Colossus P army and absolutely terrible against upgraded bio ball.
40 DPS AOE Range 10 doesn't seem OP to you?
Storms are only lackluster vs Protoss, really...
Research for lift is bullshit as well. The game is balanced around this. It's a race defining factor. You're talking about delaying every single Terran build by up to 50 seconds MINIMUM.
The problem in Corr/Muta v Raven/Viking is with PDD, not with Corruptors.
Hydra's are good in the situations they are viable in. The only thing they could use is some extra health. In the open 200/200 RoachHydraViperInfestor deals perfectly well with BioTankVikingRaven by the way.
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On October 30 2014 00:40 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 00:29 parkufarku wrote:
Ok. Maybe the storm is a little too powerful. But I added it in because Storms in BW used to be exciting and rewarding, while Storms in SC2 seems lackluster.
Let's be honest. Hellbat is too tanky for its cost. Research for lift is something that only seems fair seeing how Zergs are expected to pay money to research burrow. Flying buildings is an incredible advantage and definitely a huge advantage in base-trades as well.
Corrupters cost a lot, but they are not that great at air battles. See Corrupters and Mutas vs. Vikings, Raven PDDs with support.
Hydra buffs ARE necessary, because as of now, they are 'not great' vs Colossus P army and absolutely terrible against upgraded bio ball. 40 DPS AOE Range 10 doesn't seem OP to you? Storms are only lackluster vs Protoss, really... Research for lift is bullshit as well. The game is balanced around this. It's a race defining factor. You're talking about delaying every single Terran build by up to 50 seconds MINIMUM.The problem in Corr/Muta v Raven/Viking is with PDD, not with Corruptors. Hydra's are good in the situations they are viable in. The only thing they could use is some extra health. In the open 200/200 RoachHydraViperInfestor deals perfectly well with BioTankVikingRaven by the way.
"want to swap your factory on a reactor instead? lol go make a new factory+reactor"
yeah... that's just plain stupid.
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On October 30 2014 00:29 parkufarku wrote:
Ok. Maybe the storm is a little too powerful. But I added it in because Storms in BW used to be exciting and rewarding, while Storms in SC2 seems lackluster.
Let's be honest. Hellbat is too tanky for its cost. Research for lift is something that only seems fair seeing how Zergs are expected to pay money to research burrow. Flying buildings is an incredible advantage and definitely a huge advantage in base-trades as well.
Corrupters cost a lot, but they are not that great at air battles. See Corrupters and Mutas vs. Vikings, Raven PDDs with support.
Hydra buffs ARE necessary, because as of now, they are 'not great' vs Colossus P army and absolutely terrible against upgraded bio ball.
Storms in BW were exciting because there wasn't multi-cast meaning you had to select each Templar individually and Storm. You couldn't just group all your Templar and spam T.
Well, building 14 drones at a time is an incredible advantage. Should Zerg have to research something to unlock extra Larvae? Creep giving you full map vision is a huge advantage too - should that need researching as well? he game is asymetric, sometimes you just gotta deal with races being different man.
Hellbats are fine as is, and if you wanted to change something I would not change the HP. I'd make it so they can't be healed by Medivacs (because that's silly, lore wise). That just nerfs the TvZ Hellbat allin without reducing their effectiveness in TvT Mech vs. Bio or Mech vs. Protoss.
If you want to buff Corruptors vs PDD then maybe you can increase their fire rate but decrease their damage output to keep it balanced. But I don't think a DPS buff straight out is going to accomplish what you want. And it might make them too strong vs Colossus in ZvP seeing as P really needs to make Colos vs Hydras.
Hydra buffs are not necessary. If they were good against Colossus, then every Zerg would just 2 base Hydra allin and win every single ZvP. Colossus is one of the only units that is good against Hydras.
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Holy shit and I didn't even realize but yea....
Lifting buildings is crucial for Terran to swap addons and such. Without that you're delaying Hellions in TvZ and Medivacs in TvP by the build time of a reactor, which is not fair to Terran.
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[Hellbats are fine as is, and if you wanted to change something I would not change the HP. I'd make it so they can't be healed by Medivacs (because that's silly, lore wise). That just nerfs the TvZ Hellbat allin without reducing their effectiveness in TvT Mech vs. Bio or Mech vs. Protoss.
That would be a huge nerf to mech, the biggest strenght of hellbats is their capacity to tank damage, without medivacs healing hellbats the only viable style of mech would be trutling with tanks as heavy hellbat/medivac styles would be too weak, besides I don't really see whats the problem with hellbats, in my opinion their one of the most fun units to use when used together with medivacs, maybe hellbat all ins vs zerg, but they are not that common nowadays and I don't think they are really a problem now.
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I'd prefer if Hellbats had 2 base armor instead of the Biological tag.
That way they can't be healed anymore but are more efficient in a defensive manner against Zealots and Zerglings.
Both of those units are melee, Light and attack quickly so the armor would have an effect there, but at the same time the attacks of Stalkers and Roaches wouldn't be affected as much.
As a result, the Hellbat still shines against Zealots/Zerglings but is now more vulnerable against other stuff since it cannot be healed anymore.
You can then also revert the silly 4 space a Hellbat takes up in a Medivac back to 2.
Hellbats can't catch up to fleeing workers so without healing it balances itself out.
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you're so funny parkufarku
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On October 30 2014 00:43 Meavis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 00:40 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 30 2014 00:29 parkufarku wrote:
Ok. Maybe the storm is a little too powerful. But I added it in because Storms in BW used to be exciting and rewarding, while Storms in SC2 seems lackluster.
Let's be honest. Hellbat is too tanky for its cost. Research for lift is something that only seems fair seeing how Zergs are expected to pay money to research burrow. Flying buildings is an incredible advantage and definitely a huge advantage in base-trades as well.
Corrupters cost a lot, but they are not that great at air battles. See Corrupters and Mutas vs. Vikings, Raven PDDs with support.
Hydra buffs ARE necessary, because as of now, they are 'not great' vs Colossus P army and absolutely terrible against upgraded bio ball. 40 DPS AOE Range 10 doesn't seem OP to you? Storms are only lackluster vs Protoss, really... Research for lift is bullshit as well. The game is balanced around this. It's a race defining factor. You're talking about delaying every single Terran build by up to 50 seconds MINIMUM.The problem in Corr/Muta v Raven/Viking is with PDD, not with Corruptors. Hydra's are good in the situations they are viable in. The only thing they could use is some extra health. In the open 200/200 RoachHydraViperInfestor deals perfectly well with BioTankVikingRaven by the way. "want to swap your factory on a reactor instead? lol go make a new factory+reactor" yeah... that's just plain stupid.
Now you have to build CCs on location as well. RIP macro builds.
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On October 30 2014 01:19 Faust852 wrote:
you're so funny parkufarku
To be fair he did make one good comment. I don't think many people would oppose dropping Carrier build time by at least 20 seconds. I mean its still more than a minute and a half per Carrier even with that reduction. >_>
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On October 30 2014 00:58 Thezzy wrote:
I'd prefer if Hellbats had 2 base armor instead of the Biological tag.
That way they can't be healed anymore but are more efficient in a defensive manner against Zealots and Zerglings.
Both of those units are melee, Light and attack quickly so the armor would have an effect there, but at the same time the attacks of Stalkers and Roaches wouldn't be affected as much.
As a result, the Hellbat still shines against Zealots/Zerglings but is now more vulnerable against other stuff since it cannot be healed anymore.
You can then also revert the silly 4 space a Hellbat takes up in a Medivac back to 2.
Hellbats can't catch up to fleeing workers so without healing it balances itself out.
I'd rather have it so that hellbats and widow mines weren't better than hellions already are against zealots and zerglings. Zealots and Zerglings get countered by bigger amounts of ranged units anyways, in particular by MMM balls. Not to mention walls, clever cliff usage etc, etc.
Those two units are to zergling- and zealotbased play just as terrible as immortals to tankbased play. Bio with the addition of those units makes it impossible to swarm early Terran attacks with superior numbers and thereby forces P/Z down the shortest paths to speedbanelings and colossi.
Playstyles like Life's and Stephano's ZvT of WoL are mainly not viable anymore in HotS because the big zergling surrounds don't work anymore. Infestors would still do as much damage to marines as previously if the get the hits off, but the typical Infestor/Ling engagements - wrapping around with hundreds of zerglings, then fungaling the marine clumps that you force like that - simply end in all zerglings being dead after 2seconds and then it is a handful of infestors vs barely scratched MMMM or MMMH.
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EPT
