EPTBut when a Zerg is missing 2-3k resources in army and they had more than 12minutes time to prepare, scout, and scout again, you'll find same Protoss still flaming on mutalisks and how unfair it is that you may have to consider doing a build that includes a stargate at some point.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1037
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
But when a Zerg is missing 2-3k resources in army and they had more than 12minutes time to prepare, scout, and scout again, you'll find same Protoss still flaming on mutalisks and how unfair it is that you may have to consider doing a build that includes a stargate at some point. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 28 2014 15:17 Big J wrote: It's funny to read these lowlevel Protoss comments about everything being so simple to read and scout for the other races at 5,6,7mins. But when a Zerg is missing 2-3k resources in army and they had more than 12minutes time to prepare, scout, and scout again, you'll find same Protoss still flaming on mutalisks and how unfair it is that you may have to consider doing a build that includes a stargate at some point. Always' been the case, that's why I'd love seeing which league are people saying such non sense. We might see some "bronze with the knowledge of GMs" but at least it would be entertaining. | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On July 28 2014 14:40 Socup wrote: By greedier openings, you mean protoss got better at opening. No units are required for defense because there's no strong 4 minute push terran can do. That has nothing to do with HoTs, unless it's a proxy opening, which also has nothing to do with HoTs. What? MSC is so good for defense, it has everything to do with HOTS, nothing to do with protoss players all suddenly "getting better at opening". It lets them get away with greedier builds, arguing against that is arguing against common sense. The old 2rax with reactor+techlab poke is one opening that MSC killed. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 28 2014 16:02 Genome852 wrote: What? MSC is so good for defense, it has everything to do with HOTS, nothing to do with protoss players all suddenly "getting better at opening". It lets them get away with greedier builds, arguing against that is arguing against common sense. The old 2rax with reactor+techlab poke is one opening that MSC killed. MSC technically reverted TvP early game from WoL, so what? Protoss had to enjoy this state whole WoL, Terran has to survive HotS and pray, that finally LotV changes this to more balanced state without any band aids(I don't think so). To the muta-switch > the problem isn't there's a missing army without any gas, blahblahblah. Most of P players can predict pretty well when the muta is in the "egg" preparing to ruin your experience. Usually the problem is switch back, when your phoenixes are dead weight and are useless, because picking in the heat of the fight is rather... funny. It always reminds me how protoss is 1-a race, when I have 12 phoenixes with range, zerg has roach/hydra and I need to cast force fields, micro the army, cast storms, do not hit phoenixes and lift hydras. Usually I just park the phoenixes somewhere and hope for AoE melting zerg army. Usually once the storm enters the scene it works :D | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On July 28 2014 15:58 Faust852 wrote: Always' been the case, that's why I'd love seeing which league are people saying such non sense. We might see some "bronze with the knowledge of GMs" but at least it would be entertaining. I still remember when some replays popped out saying "I am silver with GM macro". | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 28 2014 16:33 deacon.frost wrote: MSC technically reverted TvP early game from WoL, so what? Protoss had to enjoy this state whole WoL, Terran has to survive HotS and pray, that finally LotV changes this to more balanced state without any band aids(I don't think so). To the muta-switch > the problem isn't there's a missing army without any gas, blahblahblah. Most of P players can predict pretty well when the muta is in the "egg" preparing to ruin your experience. Usually the problem is switch back, when your phoenixes are dead weight and are useless, because picking in the heat of the fight is rather... funny. It always reminds me how protoss is 1-a race, when I have 12 phoenixes with range, zerg has roach/hydra and I need to cast force fields, micro the army, cast storms, do not hit phoenixes and lift hydras. Usually I just park the phoenixes somewhere and hope for AoE melting zerg army. Usually once the storm enters the scene it works :D No, that's just not true. I'm willing to say Terran had at least a slight advantage throughout most of WoL. But it was never about coinflip early game balance. And Protoss had a huge amount of allins regardless, all along the WoL lifetime. It was never in a state in which a Terran could either do 3unit 2base defense, or 5min banshees and the Protoss had to wild guess whether to be greedy as fuck or as defensive as possible. Boo fucking hoo. I couldn't care less about the game being hard for you against mutalisks. If micro is your only problem, then get better at the game. (same goes for the other races complaining about "too hard micro" against mines or against banelings or whatever) I can't care less for execution problems and when you rather storm and hope for practicallity reasons at your level and your are fine with it, who am I to not be fine with it. But shitty coinflip techhide, early-game-you-can't-know, build order bullshit IS a problem for the game. At all levels. Because it doesn't matter how good you are and play, you are still going to randomly lose against it without it being your fault at all. | ||
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Pharaphobia
Czech Republic58 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 28 2014 16:33 deacon.frost wrote: MSC technically reverted TvP early game from WoL, so what? Protoss had to enjoy this state whole WoL, Terran has to survive HotS and pray, that finally LotV changes this to more balanced state without any band aids(I don't think so). Are you for real ? Every possible agression was easily countered with standard scouting in WoL. And there was like 10th time less possible pressure than what the protoss has now. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:06 Big J wrote: No, that's just not true. I'm willing to say Terran had at least a slight advantage throughout most of WoL. But it was never about coinflip early game balance. And Protoss had a huge amount of allins regardless, all along the WoL lifetime. It was never in a state in which a Terran could either do 3unit 2base defense, or 5min banshees and the Protoss had to wild guess whether to be greedy as fuck or as defensive as possible. Boo fucking hoo. I couldn't care less about the game being hard for you against mutalisks. If micro is your only problem, then get better at the game. (same goes for the other races complaining about "too hard micro" against mines or against banelings or whatever) I can't care less for execution problems and when you rather storm and hope for practicallity reasons at your level and your are fine with it, who am I to not be fine with it. But shitty coinflip techhide, early-game-you-can't-know, build order bullshit IS a problem for the game. At all levels. Because it doesn't matter how good you are and play, you are still going to randomly lose against it without it being your fault at all. I am not against the micro, I am against hardcounters if you read it properly. The only proper response to mutalisks are phoenixes. Which is a useless unit once zerg switches to different non air tech. It is wrong. The same way the correct response to colossi are vikings. I mentioned the micro becuase "protoss 1a race" and it is successful as I see  Woohoo Well, standard scout in WoL looks how exactly? If Terran walled the ramp, the only way of scouting was observer. So every toss opened with robo or prayed that terran plays standard. Usually you went 1gate robo into expand on bigger maps or 3gate robo on 2 player maps to be safe. You made a huge investment in sentries, because force field was the only solution to keep you safe until higher tech was out and after that you begun to be greedy. Force fielding your way in the MU, yeah, I do not like this... I think that force field is really dumb spell, though it is the core of early/mid game for protoss. But you cannot change this without redesign... On July 28 2014 17:16 Pharaphobia wrote: Fix balance like Czech community did.. 98% of high level players plays protoss :> (Kappa? No sad true story) Czech what? I do not think we have community. We doesn't have high level players either. But I have to admit that Jump really tries his best  | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am not against the micro, I am against hardcounters if you read it properly. The only proper response to mutalisks are phoenixes. Which is a useless unit once zerg switches to different non air tech. It is wrong. The same way the correct response to colossi are vikings. I mentioned the micro becuase "protoss 1a race" and it is successful as I see Woohoo Well, standard scout in WoL looks how exactly? If Terran walled the ramp, the only way of scouting was observer. So every toss opened with robo or prayed that terran plays standard. Usually you went 1gate robo into expand on bigger maps or 3gate robo on 2 player maps to be safe. You made a huge investment in sentries, because force field was the only solution to keep you safe until higher tech was out and after that you begun to be greedy. Force fielding your way in the MU, yeah, I do not like this... I think that force field is really dumb spell, though it is the core of early/mid game for protoss. But you cannot change this without redesign... Czech what? I do not think we have community. We doesn't have high level players either. But I have to admit that Jump really tries his best If the terran went 2 rax, he couldn't wall before the scout of the protoss since he had to make his 2nd rax before the 2nd supply depot. | ||
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Pharaphobia
Czech Republic58 Posts
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Awin
France65 Posts
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:54 Awin wrote: I don't understand why people keep claiming racial distribution in tournaments is the best way to prove imbalance. Terrans are less represented in Starcraft 2, it is sad but true. Less TvTs doesn t mean terran is UP, just there is fewer pro Terran player. Funny thing is that people once claimed the opposite (there are more Terran players and they are better than their Protoss and Zerg counterparts). So which is it? | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:54 Awin wrote: I don't understand why people keep claiming racial distribution in tournaments is the best way to prove imbalance. Terrans are less represented in Starcraft 2, it is sad but true. Less TvTs doesn t mean terran is UP, just there is fewer pro Terran player. There are more terrans in all SC2, why would there be less pro terrans ? This doesn't make sens, because there were at least an equal number of terrans in WoL and at the release of HotS. Do they all decide to retire ? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am not against the micro, I am against hardcounters if you read it properly. The only proper response to mutalisks are phoenixes. Which is a useless unit once zerg switches to different non air tech. It is wrong. The same way the correct response to colossi are vikings. I mentioned the micro becuase "protoss 1a race" and it is successful as I see Woohoo Well, standard scout in WoL looks how exactly? If Terran walled the ramp, the only way of scouting was observer. So every toss opened with robo or prayed that terran plays standard. Usually you went 1gate robo into expand on bigger maps or 3gate robo on 2 player maps to be safe. You made a huge investment in sentries, because force field was the only solution to keep you safe until higher tech was out and after that you begun to be greedy. Force fielding your way in the MU, yeah, I do not like this... I think that force field is really dumb spell, though it is the core of early/mid game for protoss. But you cannot change this without redesign... Czech what? I do not think we have community. We doesn't have high level players either. But I have to admit that Jump really tries his best First of all, worker scout nearly gives you all the information you need to know against Terran. If there is a wall up, before the rax is finished, then it's a 1rax expand, or a he just delayed his tech/OC so much, that it hurts him more than hiding the information does good for him. Even more, yes as you said yourself, you had a catch all build in form of the robo with obs scouting. So, what again was the problem? That's what Terrans are lacking currently. Phoenixes are by far the most successful response to mutas, but there are other builds like the 8min 3rd into blink builds or plain allin builds, that all work well against mutas. But yeah, I think eventually in the later stages of the midgame, you have to go for Stargates. So, what's the big deal with it, that you need certain units to counter certain plays? That's that way all throughout all RTS games. If you 2base gateway allin, I need a roaches. If you build air units, I need antiair units. If you build marines, I need banelings. If you have a massive deathball, I need to go Vipers. True, it would be better if you could counter units in various ways, so you'd have mulitple counterplays to 1unit. But those are design complaints on a niveau that not a single RTS game ever has achieved. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:54 Awin wrote: I don't understand why people keep claiming racial distribution in tournaments is the best way to prove imbalance. Terrans are less represented in Starcraft 2, it is sad but true. Less TvTs doesn t mean terran is UP, just there is fewer pro Terran player. Exactly! It's no wonder terran doesn't win code s when there is only like 3 terrans playing! | ||
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Awin
France65 Posts
On July 28 2014 17:59 Faust852 wrote: There are more terrans in all SC2, why would there be less pro terrans ? This doesn't make sens, because there were at least an equal number of terrans in WoL and at the release of HotS. Do they all decide to retire ? Actually, there are fewer terran players in SC2, the distribution is not 33-33-33% (you can find the figures in sc2 ranks). The global distribution is close (34-32-33 for z-p-t) but terrans are way over represented in low leagues (bronze and silver) where balance doesn t matter at all. In bronze league there are 41% of terran player, that creates a strong bias in the global distribution. If you don't consider bronze and silver, the distribution is 37-31-31 That doesn't mean anything about balance, just keep in mind that there are fewer terran players than zergs players so it explains better the number of ZvZ mirrors match up. I think the high number of zergs players can be explained by the extremely popular zergs pro players ( JD and Stephano for example). People watch their stream a lot so more zergs players on ladder ( bronze players probably don't even know the existence of pro players streaming, they probably chose terran because it is the more "obvious" race, with mechanics similar to every rts such as AoE or Warcraft, no hatcheries, no warpgate etc...) Once again i don't say terran is well enough represented in code s for example but keep in mind those figures when you talk about even racial distribution. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
but terrans are way over represented in low leagues (bronze and silver) where balance doesn t matter at all. In bronze league there are 41% Let me ask you this. How do you think the league distribution would look like if one race was UP? Would it make sense that this race had fewer players in master league/GM and more players in bronze/silver (?) | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 28 2014 18:43 Awin wrote: Actually, there are fewer terran players in SC2, the distribution is not 33-33-33% (you can find the figures in sc2 ranks). The global distribution is close (34-32-33 for z-p-t) but terrans are way over represented in low leagues (bronze and silver) where balance doesn t matter at all. In bronze league there are 41% of terran player, that creates a strong bias in the global distribution. If you don't consider bronze and silver, the distribution is 37-31-31 That doesn't mean anything about balance, just keep in mind that there are fewer terran players than zergs players so it explains better the number of ZvZ mirrors match up. I think the high number of zergs players can be explained by the extremely popular zergs pro players ( JD and Stephano for example). People watch their stream a lot so more zergs players on ladder ( bronze players probably don't even know the existence of pro players streaming, they probably chose terran because it is the more "obvious" race, with mechanics similar to every rts such as AoE or Warcraft, no hatcheries, no warpgate etc...) Once again i don't say terran is well enough represented in code s for example but keep in mind those figures when you talk about even racial distribution. Race Statistics (Total): Terran 30.56% (53,503 Users) Zerg 30.70% (53,758 Users) Protoss 28.97% (50,727 Users) Random 9.77% (17,112 Users) Since it's pretty much the same, if the game was perfectly balanced, there should be around 33/33/33 in GM/Master. Back in 2011, there was as many competitive T as there were competitve Z (cf Aligulac). They didn't disapear without reason. | ||
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