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On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e9OBHGG.png) Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era! + Show Spoiler +
Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.
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Racial distribution is the best indicator of balance
Except for when it indicates that Terran isn't underpowered in which case it's meaningless
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On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin. Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era! + Show Spoiler + Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.
Hey, it's not my invention or terminology
Also look at this if you have any questions about whats what
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tU83G3X.png)
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On July 26 2014 22:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
In fact looking back at the statistics, the last wm change before the nerf was in February 2013, which was still during the beta. The widow mine was not buffed at all after the release of Hots and before the nerf, so I'm not sure what the hell youre talking about. TvZ did reach 56% at one point, no one is denying that, but that was months before the nerf happened. And in the months before it did take place, TvZ had balanced out to 50%. So in other words, the mine was not too strong for zergs to deal with before the patch after they figured out how to do so.
I just don't even know how to respond to someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension. Terran had the buffed widow mine (aka before the nerf) while they had a 56% winrate in 2013. The falling off was because of the hellbat nerf and the overseer buff and the matchup finally leveled out when the mine was nerfed. The graph clearly covers the time in 2013 when Terran had the buffed mine and they also had a 56% win ratio (which I guess you would call the 'regular mine' now).
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On July 27 2014 12:34 Konranjyoutai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 22:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
In fact looking back at the statistics, the last wm change before the nerf was in February 2013, which was still during the beta. The widow mine was not buffed at all after the release of Hots and before the nerf, so I'm not sure what the hell youre talking about. TvZ did reach 56% at one point, no one is denying that, but that was months before the nerf happened. And in the months before it did take place, TvZ had balanced out to 50%. So in other words, the mine was not too strong for zergs to deal with before the patch after they figured out how to do so. I just don't even know how to respond to someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension. Terran had the buffed widow mine (aka before the nerf) while they had a 56% winrate in 2013. The falling off was because of the hellbat nerf and the overseer buff and the matchup finally leveled out when the mine was nerfed. The graph clearly covers the time in 2013 when Terran had the buffed mine and they also had a 56% win ratio (which I guess you would call the 'regular mine' now).
Either i am blind or this graph does not give infomartion about specific matchups at all. Also from july till end ot the graph Terran had average results with "buffed" mine. So what are youa exactly afraid of , that teeran will dominate like at start of HOTS?. I would not count on that.
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About TvP:
If you use blink then your stalkers cant attack vikings for 1sec. Seriously all fights, that p won, was because of blink stalker to vikings. If you have no vikings and your opponent still have collossi, you are dead. stalkers main task is killing vikings anyway. I have seen wonderful Terran flanks with their vikings but suddenly useless due to blink.
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On July 27 2014 12:34 Konranjyoutai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 22:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
In fact looking back at the statistics, the last wm change before the nerf was in February 2013, which was still during the beta. The widow mine was not buffed at all after the release of Hots and before the nerf, so I'm not sure what the hell youre talking about. TvZ did reach 56% at one point, no one is denying that, but that was months before the nerf happened. And in the months before it did take place, TvZ had balanced out to 50%. So in other words, the mine was not too strong for zergs to deal with before the patch after they figured out how to do so. I just don't even know how to respond to someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension. Terran had the buffed widow mine (aka before the nerf) while they had a 56% winrate in 2013. The falling off was because of the hellbat nerf and the overseer buff and the matchup finally leveled out when the mine was nerfed. The graph clearly covers the time in 2013 when Terran had the buffed mine and they also had a 56% win ratio (which I guess you would call the 'regular mine' now).
I didnt understand what you meant because you worded it like a moron.. pre-nerf mine would be the common way to talk about it, not the buffed mine lol. Anyways, hellbats are still nerfed, and ovies still have a speed buff so nothing will change as far as balance goes..TvZ will still be about 50% when the buff comes through.
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Like come on man, English clearly isnt your first language.. "Someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension"...that's not even close to a proper sentence. Its fine if its not your first language, but don't get mad at others because when they cant understand you. Just clarify what you meant, no reason to have a hissy fit about it..
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On July 28 2014 08:51 Survivor61316 wrote:
Like come on man, English clearly isnt your first language.. "Someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension"...that's not even close to a proper sentence. Its fine if its not your first language, but don't get mad at others because when they cant understand you. Just clarify what you meant, no reason to have a hissy fit about it..
dude...
anyways on topic: I still have a hard time catching the muta cloud in tvz. That and fighting the 50+ banes army is hard :3
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On July 28 2014 08:51 Survivor61316 wrote:Its fine if its not your first language, but don't get mad at others because when they cant understand you.
Wow. On behalf of fluent English speakers everywhere, I'm gonna go ahead and revoke your right to put others down for improper grammar use.
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Yeah derp on my part, but at least it was clearly a typo and not just a completely improper use of sentence structure..
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And you'll have to revoke his too, seeing as he was trying to put me down when I retaliated lol
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On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin. Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era! + Show Spoiler + Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.
What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.
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On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin. Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era! + Show Spoiler + Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least. What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.
It's because of the MSC + timewarp and not needed to build a robo and an obs thats a lot of gas not going into the robo and obs going into more stalkers. making it hit faster and harder.
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On July 28 2014 11:33 starslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin. Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era! + Show Spoiler + Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least. What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics. It's because of the MSC + timewarp and not needed to build a robo and an obs thats a lot of gas not going into the robo and obs going into more stalkers. making it hit faster and harder.
Which is why people say MSC is a huge problem along with the obviously problematic Photon Overcharge outside of PvP
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On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.
Uh.... What?
Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense.
Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL
Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending.
Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in.
How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS?
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On July 28 2014 11:38 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics. Uh.... What? Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense. Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending. Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in. How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS?
The moment the Mothership Core became mobile in HotS beta Blink became overpowered.
It barely lasted two weeks before Blink's research time had to be increased.
The Mothership Core completely changed the game as far as Blink is concerned. r691175002 is right. You can't compare WoL Blink to HoTS Blink, the Mothership Core completely changed it.
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All this discussion of the nerf to Hellbat cargo space reminds me how sad I was that casters didn't refer to Hellbat-loaded Medivacs as "hellivacs".
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On July 28 2014 12:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 11:38 r691175002 wrote:On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics. Uh.... What? Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense. Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending. Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in. How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS? The moment the Mothership Core became mobile in HotS beta Blink became overpowered. It barely lasted two weeks before Blink's research time had to be increased. The Mothership Core completely changed the game as far as Blink is concerned. r691175002 is right. You can't compare WoL Blink to HoTS Blink, the Mothership Core completely changed it.
Oh man, I remember the nightmare that was PvP during that time before blink was nerfed. It wasn't a case of if blink was being used, but when. I just started doing the fastest possible DT rush, which worked surprisingly well.
I still think the largest non-Swarm Host related mistake Blizzard did with HOTS was when they changed the mothership core from being as slow as a pre-queen patch overlord to its current state. The old mothership core made perfect sense in context to the game. It was a thing to help Protoss with early game defence and certain timings but didn't have a ton of utility outside of that time frame, which was fine because outside of the early game, Protoss didn't have issues with survivability.
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On July 28 2014 11:38 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics. Uh.... What? Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense. Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending. Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in. How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS?
By greedier openings, you mean protoss got better at opening. No units are required for defense because there's no strong 4 minute push terran can do. That has nothing to do with HoTs, unless it's a proxy opening, which also has nothing to do with HoTs.
A mothership core still costs time and resources, just like getting robo and an observer. Maybe a little less, but still there.
Why are you fighting on your ramp and getting yourself choked?
Terran doesnt need to open reaper at all. Ever hear of scouting with an scv? You can even save both SCV and reaper simply by going reaper expand for the gas but not producing the reaper and getting Ebay instead with a blind turret + an infantry upgrade and pumping marine marauder. You should be doing that anyway since you know you need to commit to aggression to deny his third anyway.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IrAlNKU.png)
