• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:52
CEST 02:52
KST 09:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20259Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder0EWC 2025 - Replay Pack1Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced26BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time EWC 2025 - Replay Pack Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 607 users

Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1036

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1266 Next
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8512 Posts
July 26 2014 14:30 GMT
#20701
On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:
The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin.

[image loading]

Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era!

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.
RampancyTW
Profile Joined August 2010
United States577 Posts
July 26 2014 15:46 GMT
#20702
Racial distribution is the best indicator of balance

Except for when it indicates that Terran isn't underpowered in which case it's meaningless
neptunusfisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
2286 Posts
July 26 2014 16:07 GMT
#20703
On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:
The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin.

[image loading]

Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era!

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.


Hey, it's not my invention or terminology

Also look at this if you have any questions about whats what
[image loading]
maru G5L pls
Konranjyoutai
Profile Joined April 2012
112 Posts
July 27 2014 03:34 GMT
#20704
On July 26 2014 22:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
In fact looking back at the statistics, the last wm change before the nerf was in February 2013, which was still during the beta. The widow mine was not buffed at all after the release of Hots and before the nerf, so I'm not sure what the hell youre talking about. TvZ did reach 56% at one point, no one is denying that, but that was months before the nerf happened. And in the months before it did take place, TvZ had balanced out to 50%. So in other words, the mine was not too strong for zergs to deal with before the patch after they figured out how to do so.



I just don't even know how to respond to someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension. Terran had the buffed widow mine (aka before the nerf) while they had a 56% winrate in 2013. The falling off was because of the hellbat nerf and the overseer buff and the matchup finally leveled out when the mine was nerfed. The graph clearly covers the time in 2013 when Terran had the buffed mine and they also had a 56% win ratio (which I guess you would call the 'regular mine' now).
keglu
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland485 Posts
July 27 2014 10:27 GMT
#20705
On July 27 2014 12:34 Konranjyoutai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 22:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
In fact looking back at the statistics, the last wm change before the nerf was in February 2013, which was still during the beta. The widow mine was not buffed at all after the release of Hots and before the nerf, so I'm not sure what the hell youre talking about. TvZ did reach 56% at one point, no one is denying that, but that was months before the nerf happened. And in the months before it did take place, TvZ had balanced out to 50%. So in other words, the mine was not too strong for zergs to deal with before the patch after they figured out how to do so.



I just don't even know how to respond to someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension. Terran had the buffed widow mine (aka before the nerf) while they had a 56% winrate in 2013. The falling off was because of the hellbat nerf and the overseer buff and the matchup finally leveled out when the mine was nerfed. The graph clearly covers the time in 2013 when Terran had the buffed mine and they also had a 56% win ratio (which I guess you would call the 'regular mine' now).


Either i am blind or this graph does not give infomartion about specific matchups at all. Also from july till end ot the graph Terran had average results with "buffed" mine. So what are youa exactly afraid of , that teeran will dominate like at start of HOTS?. I would not count on that.
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
July 27 2014 11:52 GMT
#20706
About TvP:
If you use blink then your stalkers cant attack vikings for 1sec. Seriously all fights, that p won, was because of blink stalker to vikings. If you have no vikings and your opponent still have collossi, you are dead. stalkers main task is killing vikings anyway. I have seen wonderful Terran flanks with their vikings but suddenly useless due to blink.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Survivor61316
Profile Joined July 2012
United States470 Posts
July 27 2014 23:48 GMT
#20707
On July 27 2014 12:34 Konranjyoutai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 22:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
In fact looking back at the statistics, the last wm change before the nerf was in February 2013, which was still during the beta. The widow mine was not buffed at all after the release of Hots and before the nerf, so I'm not sure what the hell youre talking about. TvZ did reach 56% at one point, no one is denying that, but that was months before the nerf happened. And in the months before it did take place, TvZ had balanced out to 50%. So in other words, the mine was not too strong for zergs to deal with before the patch after they figured out how to do so.



I just don't even know how to respond to someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension. Terran had the buffed widow mine (aka before the nerf) while they had a 56% winrate in 2013. The falling off was because of the hellbat nerf and the overseer buff and the matchup finally leveled out when the mine was nerfed. The graph clearly covers the time in 2013 when Terran had the buffed mine and they also had a 56% win ratio (which I guess you would call the 'regular mine' now).

I didnt understand what you meant because you worded it like a moron.. pre-nerf mine would be the common way to talk about it, not the buffed mine lol. Anyways, hellbats are still nerfed, and ovies still have a speed buff so nothing will change as far as balance goes..TvZ will still be about 50% when the buff comes through.
Liquid Fighting
Survivor61316
Profile Joined July 2012
United States470 Posts
July 27 2014 23:51 GMT
#20708
Like come on man, English clearly isnt your first language.. "Someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension"...that's not even close to a proper sentence. Its fine if its not your first language, but don't get mad at others because when they cant understand you. Just clarify what you meant, no reason to have a hissy fit about it..
Liquid Fighting
Kevin_Sorbo
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada3217 Posts
July 28 2014 00:02 GMT
#20709
On July 28 2014 08:51 Survivor61316 wrote:
Like come on man, English clearly isnt your first language.. "Someone who refuses to learn a bit of reading comprehension"...that's not even close to a proper sentence. Its fine if its not your first language, but don't get mad at others because when they cant understand you. Just clarify what you meant, no reason to have a hissy fit about it..



dude...


anyways on topic: I still have a hard time catching the muta cloud in tvz. That and fighting the 50+ banes army is hard :3
The mind is like a parachute, it doesnt work unless its open. - Zappa
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
July 28 2014 00:06 GMT
#20710
On July 28 2014 08:51 Survivor61316 wrote:Its fine if its not your first language, but don't get mad at others because when they cant understand you.


Wow. On behalf of fluent English speakers everywhere, I'm gonna go ahead and revoke your right to put others down for improper grammar use.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Survivor61316
Profile Joined July 2012
United States470 Posts
July 28 2014 01:44 GMT
#20711
Yeah derp on my part, but at least it was clearly a typo and not just a completely improper use of sentence structure..
Liquid Fighting
Survivor61316
Profile Joined July 2012
United States470 Posts
July 28 2014 01:45 GMT
#20712
And you'll have to revoke his too, seeing as he was trying to put me down when I retaliated lol
Liquid Fighting
Socup
Profile Joined June 2014
190 Posts
July 28 2014 02:25 GMT
#20713
On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:
The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin.

[image loading]

Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era!

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.



What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.
There's no reason blizzard can't release new units or fixes to a game without creating another costly "expansion" you've already paid 100$ for, unless they want to treadmill the gambler with future promises of "it gets better"
starslayer
Profile Joined August 2011
United States696 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-28 02:34:02
July 28 2014 02:33 GMT
#20714
On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:
On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:
The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin.

[image loading]

Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era!

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.



What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.


It's because of the MSC + timewarp and not needed to build a robo and an obs thats a lot of gas not going into the robo and obs going into more stalkers. making it hit faster and harder.
i came here to kickass and chew bubblegum and i'm all out of bubble gum
emidanRKO
Profile Joined December 2010
United States137 Posts
July 28 2014 02:35 GMT
#20715
On July 28 2014 11:33 starslayer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:
On July 26 2014 23:30 Doublemint wrote:
On July 26 2014 23:15 neptunusfisk wrote:
The big terran dropout of code S was already ongoing before the mine nerf, but it seems that it + blink meta was the nail in the coffin.

[image loading]

Btw, notice how the protoss count is comparable to the GOMTvT months. This is truly the GOMexPvP era!

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Looking at this graph and only talking about GomTvT _months_ seems like an understatement to say the least.



What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.


It's because of the MSC + timewarp and not needed to build a robo and an obs thats a lot of gas not going into the robo and obs going into more stalkers. making it hit faster and harder.


Which is why people say MSC is a huge problem along with the obviously problematic Photon Overcharge outside of PvP
son
r691175002
Profile Joined October 2012
249 Posts
July 28 2014 02:38 GMT
#20716
On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.

Uh.... What?

Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense.

Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL

Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending.

Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in.

How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS?
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16071 Posts
July 28 2014 03:32 GMT
#20717
On July 28 2014 11:38 r691175002 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.

Uh.... What?

Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense.

Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL

Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending.

Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in.

How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS?


The moment the Mothership Core became mobile in HotS beta Blink became overpowered.

It barely lasted two weeks before Blink's research time had to be increased.

The Mothership Core completely changed the game as far as Blink is concerned. r691175002 is right. You can't compare WoL Blink to HoTS Blink, the Mothership Core completely changed it.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
July 28 2014 03:40 GMT
#20718
All this discussion of the nerf to Hellbat cargo space reminds me how sad I was that casters didn't refer to Hellbat-loaded Medivacs as "hellivacs".
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-28 03:55:28
July 28 2014 03:49 GMT
#20719
On July 28 2014 12:32 Vindicare605 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2014 11:38 r691175002 wrote:
On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.

Uh.... What?

Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense.

Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL

Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending.

Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in.

How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS?


The moment the Mothership Core became mobile in HotS beta Blink became overpowered.

It barely lasted two weeks before Blink's research time had to be increased.

The Mothership Core completely changed the game as far as Blink is concerned. r691175002 is right. You can't compare WoL Blink to HoTS Blink, the Mothership Core completely changed it.

Oh man, I remember the nightmare that was PvP during that time before blink was nerfed. It wasn't a case of if blink was being used, but when. I just started doing the fastest possible DT rush, which worked surprisingly well.

I still think the largest non-Swarm Host related mistake Blizzard did with HOTS was when they changed the mothership core from being as slow as a pre-queen patch overlord to its current state. The old mothership core made perfect sense in context to the game. It was a thing to help Protoss with early game defence and certain timings but didn't have a ton of utility outside of that time frame, which was fine because outside of the early game, Protoss didn't have issues with survivability.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Socup
Profile Joined June 2014
190 Posts
July 28 2014 05:40 GMT
#20720
On July 28 2014 11:38 r691175002 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2014 11:25 Socup wrote:What I cant understand is how blink was available all during WoL, and yet only after hots did blink play become this powerfuil. Maybe Protoss players as a whole simply got better at mechanics.

Uh.... What?

Firstly, blink can now come out far more aggressively than before since Protoss has much greedier openings. They can save several hundred minerals and an enormous amount of gas since no units are required for defense.

Secondly, you no longer need an observer to blink to high ground, meaning that you can literally skip an entire tech tree that was required in WoL

Thirdly, the mothership core adds more damage, and a timewarp on the ramp is essentially game ending.

Finally, Terran openings are far more fragile since they need to open reaper to avoid dying to numerous potential all-ins. If the protoss hides his tech properly the terran might even be forced to commit to an e-bay and turret. Every one of these units are useless against the blink all in.

How can you even compare blink in WoL to HotS?


By greedier openings, you mean protoss got better at opening. No units are required for defense because there's no strong 4 minute push terran can do. That has nothing to do with HoTs, unless it's a proxy opening, which also has nothing to do with HoTs.

A mothership core still costs time and resources, just like getting robo and an observer. Maybe a little less, but still there.

Why are you fighting on your ramp and getting yourself choked?

Terran doesnt need to open reaper at all. Ever hear of scouting with an scv? You can even save both SCV and reaper simply by going reaper expand for the gas but not producing the reaper and getting Ebay instead with a blind turret + an infantry upgrade and pumping marine marauder. You should be doing that anyway since you know you need to commit to aggression to deny his third anyway.

There's no reason blizzard can't release new units or fixes to a game without creating another costly "expansion" you've already paid 100$ for, unless they want to treadmill the gambler with future promises of "it gets better"
Prev 1 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1266 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 8m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 229
Ketroc 53
StarCraft: Brood War
MaD[AoV]60
NaDa 59
Dota 2
monkeys_forever630
League of Legends
JimRising 648
febbydoto18
Counter-Strike
Fnx 2307
fl0m2174
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King1729
hungrybox1436
AZ_Axe504
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor206
Other Games
tarik_tv20583
summit1g14931
gofns9740
ROOTCatZ253
Maynarde188
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2323
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta112
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki30
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift7750
Other Games
• Scarra2147
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
10h 8m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 9h
WardiTV European League
1d 15h
Online Event
1d 16h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
FEL Cracow 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.