• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:43
CEST 15:43
KST 22:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence6Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups3WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia7Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence Diplomacy, Cosmonarchy Edition BW General Discussion ASL20 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Borderlands 3
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1482 users

Double elimination finals as good? - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 Next All
Ballack
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway821 Posts
August 15 2011 16:09 GMT
#61
On August 15 2011 23:50 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 22:59 Ballack wrote:
I'm not saying the system isn't fair, the guy from the winners bracket has so far been the best player, and he deserves a headstart, but I do think the head start he gets in these tournaments is over the top. What I would suggest is the big tournaments having a normal best of 7 for finals, where the guy from the winners bracket leads 1-0 when entering game 1.


So you basically mean like in the Homestory Cup?


I didn't catch the finals (funnily pretty much the only broadcasted set I missed from that tourney), but if the Homestory Cup ran like that in the finals, then yes.
Just when I thought I was out, Blizz pulled me back in..
ProxyKnoxy
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2576 Posts
August 15 2011 16:14 GMT
#62
On August 16 2011 00:43 Cartel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 00:40 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I don't agree at all that the winner of the upper bracket should get an advantage. I don't know why but I just plain disagree with it.

ALL finals should be a BO7 in my opinion, although that would probably never happen, the MLG finals were a let down as it was so short


I can understand why you would believe the system is unfair, but thats where there may be a misunderstanding.

The upper bracket player does not have an advantage.


He doesn't? :o Surely only having to win one Bo3 compared to the two of the other is an advantage over the other?
"Zealot try give mariners high five. Mariners not like high five and try hide and shoot zealot"
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
August 15 2011 16:17 GMT
#63
if they play a bo7 or even a bo9, 1game up is imho not enough advantage for the guy from the upper bracket.

but i also think bo5 with 1 game up or bo7 with 2 games up would be better than two bo x
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
cYaN
Profile Joined May 2004
Norway3322 Posts
August 15 2011 16:17 GMT
#64
Double best of whatever has never really been the BW standard. It was 1 game up. There were exceptions, but that was the norm. I don't see a reason to change that. Of course double elim wasn't as much used in bw as it is now is sc2, but still.
trias_e
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:26:40
August 15 2011 16:26 GMT
#65
On August 15 2011 23:36 grigorin wrote:
I would make it like in beachvolleyball:

Double Elimination until Ro 4 into single elimination (without any advantages)

example:
Link to .pdf


I like this alot. Make the Ro 4 Bo5, finals Bo7. I think this is the best solution. I agree that the current format is less exciting, especially with the prospect of a repeated series with one player having a big advantage for the finals.
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
August 15 2011 16:26 GMT
#66
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)
A time to live.
how2TL
Profile Joined August 2010
1197 Posts
August 15 2011 16:28 GMT
#67
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:34:03
August 15 2011 16:29 GMT
#68
On August 16 2011 01:07 akalarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.



it's not an advantage that the winner gets, it's even footing... everyone else has lost a BoX, so he needs to lose TWO BoX to lose the grand finals.

a smaller advantage for the WB? that's not fair for him because everyone else used the exact same advantage.

Tbh the main point is that fair depends quite a lot of your POV. Heck the WB player can still have lost more games than the LB player.

Seeing as the rules apply the same to every player, no matter who wins the finals of the WB, my POV= it's pretty fair.

On August 16 2011 01:28 how2TL wrote:
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much

Extended series is imo wrong because both players are at LB, they have both lost a series and don't deserve any advantage over one another. The finals, the WB deserves an advantage, but not such a large one as 1 straight BoX.

On August 16 2011 01:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)

He deserves an advantage, because else WB finals could become 'fixed', where you are pretty certain you will win the LB finals, so you'd rather not show your hand until the grand finals.
Lobo2me
Profile Joined May 2010
Norway1213 Posts
August 15 2011 16:30 GMT
#69
It's fair. There are ways to make it into a single series and still keep it pretty fair, but it wouldn't change the possibility of the finals ending in a small amount of games.
Bad manners are better than no manners at all.
FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9859 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:35:34
August 15 2011 16:34 GMT
#70
On August 16 2011 00:44 KevinIX wrote:
i like the idea to make it double elim until the Semifinals where it becomes a simple single elimination best of 5/7


I absolutely agree with this and think it's a fantastic idea.

Double elimination could be said to be had to make it harder for the top players to be cheesed out. However if at the Top 4-8 it becomes single elimanation - well upper bracker or lower bracket, everything is evened up, and it makes for a very exciting conclusion to the tournament.

I have been giving it a lot of thought, and seriously, if you think this format is unfair, give it some thought first, and then try replying telling me how.
In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
August 15 2011 16:35 GMT
#71
On August 16 2011 01:29 Zarahtra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:07 akalarry wrote:
On August 16 2011 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.



it's not an advantage that the winner gets, it's even footing... everyone else has lost a BoX, so he needs to lose TWO BoX to lose the grand finals.

a smaller advantage for the WB? that's not fair for him because everyone else used the exact same advantage.

Tbh the main point is that fair depends quite a lot of your POV. Heck the WB player can still have lost more games than the LB player.

Seeing as the rules apply the same to every player, no matter who wins the finals of the WB, my POV= it's pretty fair.

Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:28 how2TL wrote:
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much

Extended series is imo wrong because both players are at LB, they have both lost a series and don't deserve any advantage over one another. The finals, the WB deserves an advantage, but not such a large one as 1 straight BoX.

Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)

He deserves an advantage, because else WB finals could become 'fixed', where you are pretty certain you will win the LB finals, so you'd rather not show your hand until the grand finals.


This is not an advantage that only the WB gets. It's equal to everyone else, but everyone else already used that advantage up. So i don't see how it's not fair.
Carras
Profile Joined August 2010
Argentina860 Posts
August 15 2011 16:35 GMT
#72
i dont like the format becouse it tends to end in only 2 games.. kinda anti-climatic
Marou
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1371 Posts
August 15 2011 16:37 GMT
#73
It's always been like this and i'm fine with the system, giving a hudge advantage for the player in the WB is fair, we've seen often times the player from the LB winning 2BO3 in a row and it's super exciting when it happens.
twitter@RickyMarou
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:39:14
August 15 2011 16:37 GMT
#74
On August 16 2011 01:35 akalarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:29 Zarahtra wrote:
On August 16 2011 01:07 akalarry wrote:
On August 16 2011 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.



it's not an advantage that the winner gets, it's even footing... everyone else has lost a BoX, so he needs to lose TWO BoX to lose the grand finals.

a smaller advantage for the WB? that's not fair for him because everyone else used the exact same advantage.

Tbh the main point is that fair depends quite a lot of your POV. Heck the WB player can still have lost more games than the LB player.

Seeing as the rules apply the same to every player, no matter who wins the finals of the WB, my POV= it's pretty fair.

On August 16 2011 01:28 how2TL wrote:
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much

Extended series is imo wrong because both players are at LB, they have both lost a series and don't deserve any advantage over one another. The finals, the WB deserves an advantage, but not such a large one as 1 straight BoX.

On August 16 2011 01:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)

He deserves an advantage, because else WB finals could become 'fixed', where you are pretty certain you will win the LB finals, so you'd rather not show your hand until the grand finals.


This is not an advantage that only the WB gets. It's equal to everyone else, but everyone else already used that advantage up. So i don't see how it's not fair.


And because he didn't use it up, he gets awarded 1 win. Call it that the WB is fighting for that 1 win in the finals and playing fewer games if you will.
Bear4188
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1797 Posts
August 15 2011 16:38 GMT
#75
A tournament winner is the last man standing. To knock a player out of a double elimination tournament they must be defeated in two series. How is this so fucking difficult for people to grasp? It's not a novel form for organizing tournaments. The finals do suck relative to single elimination, but in return for one less exciting series you get TWICE as many series total and a format that is more conducive to the winner being the "better" player.
"I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." - R. Feynman
Bortlett
Profile Joined October 2010
United States302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:46:44
August 15 2011 16:43 GMT
#76
I don't really like the idea of keeping a format the same up until the final match in the tournament. Doesn't seem right to me. I also don't like gimmicks such as extended series to fix perceived "unfairnesses". I like the idea of double elimination as a whole though, but I have to concede that the finals of double elim tournaments are generally unsatisfying.

I think something like double elim bracket to 16 players, which are then placed in a single elim bracket, would be better. People from the winners bracket get byes in the new single elim bracket. This is sort of like what MLG does with a championship bracket but less bullshit.

Overall though I think pool play into a single elim bracket is better.
Quesa
Profile Joined November 2010
United States304 Posts
August 15 2011 16:44 GMT
#77
On August 15 2011 23:06 MisterTea wrote:
the guy in the winners bracket has already beaten the previous guy 2-1 or 2-0 and deservers the upper hand, just like the guy in the losers bracket got an extra life and fought all the way to the finals , in the end the better player will win and there's nothing wrong with double elim


At Anaheim, MMA never lost a game in the brackets prior to the grand final, he lost one pool game (not to MVP) which sent him into the 'Championship' bracket in the second place slot. MVP could have lost a game to anyone other than Ganzi and would have still had a two match advantage over MMA by virtue of his pool.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Lunchador
Profile Joined April 2010
United States776 Posts
August 15 2011 17:06 GMT
#78
On August 16 2011 01:14 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 00:43 Cartel wrote:
On August 16 2011 00:40 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I don't agree at all that the winner of the upper bracket should get an advantage. I don't know why but I just plain disagree with it.

ALL finals should be a BO7 in my opinion, although that would probably never happen, the MLG finals were a let down as it was so short


I can understand why you would believe the system is unfair, but thats where there may be a misunderstanding.

The upper bracket player does not have an advantage.


He doesn't? :o Surely only having to win one Bo3 compared to the two of the other is an advantage over the other?


You're right in it's an advantage.

You're absolutely incorrect in that it's unfair.
Defender of truth, justice, and noontime meals!
Lunchador
Profile Joined April 2010
United States776 Posts
August 15 2011 17:14 GMT
#79
Poll results are disgusting. The people who voted winner's bracket has only a one game advantage are penalizing the winner to make an imaginary "better" finals. It's like throwing a greater tax % on the really rich people (why? They're so rich they have the advantage over everyone else durrrr). That's not how double elimination works, people! Your life in a tournament is measured by whole BoX series you have won or lost. You don't change the rules right at the last minute for the finals.

If you want grand finals to be a single Bo7 or 9 with both players starting at 0, guess what? That's what's called a single elimination tournament. But you should realize that there's a far greater chance of getting one-sided finals that way (see GSL). I will vomit if you praise the NASL final tournament format because it's the exact same thing as GSL, only that NASL got extremely lucky that two good players really did make it to the grand finals.
Defender of truth, justice, and noontime meals!
BigLighthouse
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom424 Posts
August 15 2011 17:25 GMT
#80
You play 2xBo(5,7,9,w/e) with the player from the upper bracket only needing to win 1 of the 2. It is the only truly fair way in line with normal double elimination rule sets. Yeah, its anticlimactic. Thats the reason double elimination shouldnt be used.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
13:00
King of the Hill #225
iHatsuTV 22
Liquipedia
2v2
11:00
TLMC $500 2v2 Open Cup
WardiTV520
IndyStarCraft 164
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko416
IndyStarCraft 164
ProTech77
Creator 57
Codebar 19
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 9538
Rain 4248
Bisu 4054
Flash 2819
GuemChi 2757
Horang2 1532
Hyuk 1109
EffOrt 1013
Zeus 988
Mini 820
[ Show more ]
BeSt 801
PianO 797
firebathero 546
Snow 442
ZerO 171
Soulkey 169
Pusan 148
Hyun 142
Backho 94
Aegong 92
Mind 91
ggaemo 71
Rush 67
Sea.KH 62
soO 48
hero 47
Movie 41
Mong 39
Sharp 33
JYJ28
Yoon 27
Free 23
sorry 18
Sacsri 16
sas.Sziky 14
HiyA 11
SilentControl 10
IntoTheRainbow 8
Terrorterran 7
Noble 6
Hm[arnc] 5
ajuk12(nOOB) 1
Dota 2
Gorgc4920
singsing3978
qojqva2066
Dendi1783
XcaliburYe208
Fuzer 200
Pyrionflax153
Counter-Strike
zeus494
byalli214
markeloff170
oskar50
edward30
Other Games
hiko890
B2W.Neo848
crisheroes415
Hui .264
Happy202
QueenE96
NeuroSwarm49
FunKaTv 35
Trikslyr34
ToD17
ZerO(Twitch)4
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2711
• WagamamaTV427
League of Legends
• Nemesis5964
• TFBlade372
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
10h 17m
LiuLi Cup
21h 17m
RSL Revival
1d 20h
Maru vs Reynor
Cure vs TriGGeR
The PondCast
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.