• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:39
CEST 17:39
KST 00:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Who will win EWC 2025? Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Corsair Pursuit Micro? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pro gamer house photos Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 798 users

Double elimination finals as good? - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 Next All
Ballack
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway821 Posts
August 15 2011 16:09 GMT
#61
On August 15 2011 23:50 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 22:59 Ballack wrote:
I'm not saying the system isn't fair, the guy from the winners bracket has so far been the best player, and he deserves a headstart, but I do think the head start he gets in these tournaments is over the top. What I would suggest is the big tournaments having a normal best of 7 for finals, where the guy from the winners bracket leads 1-0 when entering game 1.


So you basically mean like in the Homestory Cup?


I didn't catch the finals (funnily pretty much the only broadcasted set I missed from that tourney), but if the Homestory Cup ran like that in the finals, then yes.
Just when I thought I was out, Blizz pulled me back in..
ProxyKnoxy
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2576 Posts
August 15 2011 16:14 GMT
#62
On August 16 2011 00:43 Cartel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 00:40 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I don't agree at all that the winner of the upper bracket should get an advantage. I don't know why but I just plain disagree with it.

ALL finals should be a BO7 in my opinion, although that would probably never happen, the MLG finals were a let down as it was so short


I can understand why you would believe the system is unfair, but thats where there may be a misunderstanding.

The upper bracket player does not have an advantage.


He doesn't? :o Surely only having to win one Bo3 compared to the two of the other is an advantage over the other?
"Zealot try give mariners high five. Mariners not like high five and try hide and shoot zealot"
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
August 15 2011 16:17 GMT
#63
if they play a bo7 or even a bo9, 1game up is imho not enough advantage for the guy from the upper bracket.

but i also think bo5 with 1 game up or bo7 with 2 games up would be better than two bo x
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
cYaN
Profile Joined May 2004
Norway3322 Posts
August 15 2011 16:17 GMT
#64
Double best of whatever has never really been the BW standard. It was 1 game up. There were exceptions, but that was the norm. I don't see a reason to change that. Of course double elim wasn't as much used in bw as it is now is sc2, but still.
trias_e
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States520 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:26:40
August 15 2011 16:26 GMT
#65
On August 15 2011 23:36 grigorin wrote:
I would make it like in beachvolleyball:

Double Elimination until Ro 4 into single elimination (without any advantages)

example:
Link to .pdf


I like this alot. Make the Ro 4 Bo5, finals Bo7. I think this is the best solution. I agree that the current format is less exciting, especially with the prospect of a repeated series with one player having a big advantage for the finals.
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
August 15 2011 16:26 GMT
#66
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)
A time to live.
how2TL
Profile Joined August 2010
1197 Posts
August 15 2011 16:28 GMT
#67
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:34:03
August 15 2011 16:29 GMT
#68
On August 16 2011 01:07 akalarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.



it's not an advantage that the winner gets, it's even footing... everyone else has lost a BoX, so he needs to lose TWO BoX to lose the grand finals.

a smaller advantage for the WB? that's not fair for him because everyone else used the exact same advantage.

Tbh the main point is that fair depends quite a lot of your POV. Heck the WB player can still have lost more games than the LB player.

Seeing as the rules apply the same to every player, no matter who wins the finals of the WB, my POV= it's pretty fair.

On August 16 2011 01:28 how2TL wrote:
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much

Extended series is imo wrong because both players are at LB, they have both lost a series and don't deserve any advantage over one another. The finals, the WB deserves an advantage, but not such a large one as 1 straight BoX.

On August 16 2011 01:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)

He deserves an advantage, because else WB finals could become 'fixed', where you are pretty certain you will win the LB finals, so you'd rather not show your hand until the grand finals.
Lobo2me
Profile Joined May 2010
Norway1213 Posts
August 15 2011 16:30 GMT
#69
It's fair. There are ways to make it into a single series and still keep it pretty fair, but it wouldn't change the possibility of the finals ending in a small amount of games.
Bad manners are better than no manners at all.
FiWiFaKi
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada9858 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:35:34
August 15 2011 16:34 GMT
#70
On August 16 2011 00:44 KevinIX wrote:
i like the idea to make it double elim until the Semifinals where it becomes a simple single elimination best of 5/7


I absolutely agree with this and think it's a fantastic idea.

Double elimination could be said to be had to make it harder for the top players to be cheesed out. However if at the Top 4-8 it becomes single elimanation - well upper bracker or lower bracket, everything is evened up, and it makes for a very exciting conclusion to the tournament.

I have been giving it a lot of thought, and seriously, if you think this format is unfair, give it some thought first, and then try replying telling me how.
In life, the journey is more satisfying than the destination. || .::Entrepreneurship::. Living a few years of your life like most people won't, so that you can spend the rest of your life like most people can't || Mechanical Engineering & Economics Major
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
August 15 2011 16:35 GMT
#71
On August 16 2011 01:29 Zarahtra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:07 akalarry wrote:
On August 16 2011 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.



it's not an advantage that the winner gets, it's even footing... everyone else has lost a BoX, so he needs to lose TWO BoX to lose the grand finals.

a smaller advantage for the WB? that's not fair for him because everyone else used the exact same advantage.

Tbh the main point is that fair depends quite a lot of your POV. Heck the WB player can still have lost more games than the LB player.

Seeing as the rules apply the same to every player, no matter who wins the finals of the WB, my POV= it's pretty fair.

Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:28 how2TL wrote:
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much

Extended series is imo wrong because both players are at LB, they have both lost a series and don't deserve any advantage over one another. The finals, the WB deserves an advantage, but not such a large one as 1 straight BoX.

Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)

He deserves an advantage, because else WB finals could become 'fixed', where you are pretty certain you will win the LB finals, so you'd rather not show your hand until the grand finals.


This is not an advantage that only the WB gets. It's equal to everyone else, but everyone else already used that advantage up. So i don't see how it's not fair.
Carras
Profile Joined August 2010
Argentina860 Posts
August 15 2011 16:35 GMT
#72
i dont like the format becouse it tends to end in only 2 games.. kinda anti-climatic
Marou
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1371 Posts
August 15 2011 16:37 GMT
#73
It's always been like this and i'm fine with the system, giving a hudge advantage for the player in the WB is fair, we've seen often times the player from the LB winning 2BO3 in a row and it's super exciting when it happens.
twitter@RickyMarou
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:39:14
August 15 2011 16:37 GMT
#74
On August 16 2011 01:35 akalarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 01:29 Zarahtra wrote:
On August 16 2011 01:07 akalarry wrote:
On August 16 2011 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.



it's not an advantage that the winner gets, it's even footing... everyone else has lost a BoX, so he needs to lose TWO BoX to lose the grand finals.

a smaller advantage for the WB? that's not fair for him because everyone else used the exact same advantage.

Tbh the main point is that fair depends quite a lot of your POV. Heck the WB player can still have lost more games than the LB player.

Seeing as the rules apply the same to every player, no matter who wins the finals of the WB, my POV= it's pretty fair.

On August 16 2011 01:28 how2TL wrote:
o_O

You're all haters of extended series in MLG but it's okay if it's an extended series with one game up instead of potentially 2.

Ah w/e double elim is fair you guys are too much

Extended series is imo wrong because both players are at LB, they have both lost a series and don't deserve any advantage over one another. The finals, the WB deserves an advantage, but not such a large one as 1 straight BoX.

On August 16 2011 01:26 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Bo9... kuz I want more epic games No advantage... why should the the player from the WINNER's bracket need an advantage anyways? (I say the player that wins the winners bracket should just get a small money bonus for their winner's domination)

He deserves an advantage, because else WB finals could become 'fixed', where you are pretty certain you will win the LB finals, so you'd rather not show your hand until the grand finals.


This is not an advantage that only the WB gets. It's equal to everyone else, but everyone else already used that advantage up. So i don't see how it's not fair.


And because he didn't use it up, he gets awarded 1 win. Call it that the WB is fighting for that 1 win in the finals and playing fewer games if you will.
Bear4188
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1797 Posts
August 15 2011 16:38 GMT
#75
A tournament winner is the last man standing. To knock a player out of a double elimination tournament they must be defeated in two series. How is this so fucking difficult for people to grasp? It's not a novel form for organizing tournaments. The finals do suck relative to single elimination, but in return for one less exciting series you get TWICE as many series total and a format that is more conducive to the winner being the "better" player.
"I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something." - R. Feynman
Bortlett
Profile Joined October 2010
United States302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:46:44
August 15 2011 16:43 GMT
#76
I don't really like the idea of keeping a format the same up until the final match in the tournament. Doesn't seem right to me. I also don't like gimmicks such as extended series to fix perceived "unfairnesses". I like the idea of double elimination as a whole though, but I have to concede that the finals of double elim tournaments are generally unsatisfying.

I think something like double elim bracket to 16 players, which are then placed in a single elim bracket, would be better. People from the winners bracket get byes in the new single elim bracket. This is sort of like what MLG does with a championship bracket but less bullshit.

Overall though I think pool play into a single elim bracket is better.
Quesa
Profile Joined November 2010
United States304 Posts
August 15 2011 16:44 GMT
#77
On August 15 2011 23:06 MisterTea wrote:
the guy in the winners bracket has already beaten the previous guy 2-1 or 2-0 and deservers the upper hand, just like the guy in the losers bracket got an extra life and fought all the way to the finals , in the end the better player will win and there's nothing wrong with double elim


At Anaheim, MMA never lost a game in the brackets prior to the grand final, he lost one pool game (not to MVP) which sent him into the 'Championship' bracket in the second place slot. MVP could have lost a game to anyone other than Ganzi and would have still had a two match advantage over MMA by virtue of his pool.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Lunchador
Profile Joined April 2010
United States776 Posts
August 15 2011 17:06 GMT
#78
On August 16 2011 01:14 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 00:43 Cartel wrote:
On August 16 2011 00:40 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I don't agree at all that the winner of the upper bracket should get an advantage. I don't know why but I just plain disagree with it.

ALL finals should be a BO7 in my opinion, although that would probably never happen, the MLG finals were a let down as it was so short


I can understand why you would believe the system is unfair, but thats where there may be a misunderstanding.

The upper bracket player does not have an advantage.


He doesn't? :o Surely only having to win one Bo3 compared to the two of the other is an advantage over the other?


You're right in it's an advantage.

You're absolutely incorrect in that it's unfair.
Defender of truth, justice, and noontime meals!
Lunchador
Profile Joined April 2010
United States776 Posts
August 15 2011 17:14 GMT
#79
Poll results are disgusting. The people who voted winner's bracket has only a one game advantage are penalizing the winner to make an imaginary "better" finals. It's like throwing a greater tax % on the really rich people (why? They're so rich they have the advantage over everyone else durrrr). That's not how double elimination works, people! Your life in a tournament is measured by whole BoX series you have won or lost. You don't change the rules right at the last minute for the finals.

If you want grand finals to be a single Bo7 or 9 with both players starting at 0, guess what? That's what's called a single elimination tournament. But you should realize that there's a far greater chance of getting one-sided finals that way (see GSL). I will vomit if you praise the NASL final tournament format because it's the exact same thing as GSL, only that NASL got extremely lucky that two good players really did make it to the grand finals.
Defender of truth, justice, and noontime meals!
BigLighthouse
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom424 Posts
August 15 2011 17:25 GMT
#80
You play 2xBo(5,7,9,w/e) with the player from the upper bracket only needing to win 1 of the 2. It is the only truly fair way in line with normal double elimination rule sets. Yeah, its anticlimactic. Thats the reason double elimination shouldnt be used.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 18h 21m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mcanning 316
Rex 53
StarCraft: Brood War
Flash 3736
Jaedong 2738
Barracks 2654
BeSt 995
EffOrt 910
Mini 891
Larva 513
Soma 492
Stork 419
firebathero 355
[ Show more ]
Snow 302
Free 172
Mind 107
Hyun 104
Rush 86
Sharp 73
Backho 72
ToSsGirL 55
sorry 54
TY 54
sas.Sziky 50
soO 38
Shinee 36
zelot 32
Movie 23
Terrorterran 19
scan(afreeca) 18
Shine 14
SilentControl 14
ivOry 5
Dota 2
syndereN709
420jenkins356
XcaliburYe346
League of Legends
Dendi1320
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1826
markeloff209
allub139
Other Games
singsing2973
hiko1431
FrodaN692
crisheroes531
Liquid`VortiX184
KnowMe117
Trikslyr43
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 42
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV574
League of Legends
• Nemesis6070
• TFBlade665
Other Games
• Shiphtur247
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
18h 21m
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
1d 18h
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.