• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:18
CEST 14:18
KST 21:18
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles4[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
i aint gon lie to u bruh... BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Summer Games Done Quick 2024!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 653 users

Double elimination finals as good? - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
justinpal
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3810 Posts
August 15 2011 15:33 GMT
#41
On August 16 2011 00:31 Severedevil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 00:25 Chill wrote:
On August 16 2011 00:22 red4ce wrote:
On August 15 2011 23:27 dani` wrote:
On August 15 2011 23:09 red4ce wrote:
I say just a regular BoX with no advantage going to the player from the winner's bracket. Simply not having to go through the loser's bracket is enough of an advantage already.

What? Do you realize that if the person from the upper bracket loses that BoX, he loses the tournament whereas the person from the lower bracket lost a game as well, but got a second chance in the lower bracket?

This is why it makes a LOT of sense to have the current format, the person from the upper bracket is simply allowed to lose 1 BoX as well, just like the person from the lower bracket already did before (which threw him into LB in the first place).


Yes I know exactly how double elimination works. What I am suggesting is that the winner's bracket finalist already has an advantage due to not having to go through the grind of the lower bracket. Take the IPL for example. + Show Spoiler +
White-ra made it to the grand finals having only to play 5 BoX sets, while Nerchio had to play 8 BoX
. Think of it as a sort of roundabout way of giving players byes into the next round.

I can't back these grey rules. If you make a format it should be fair. You can't start at what's most exciting and then go backwards trying to justify it.

Mirror matchups on symmetrical, two-spawn maps are the only thing that's fully fair, but we don't make tournaments out of those because it's not as exciting.


Sorry, we are talking about SC not rock, papper, scissors.
Never make a hydralisk.
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
August 15 2011 15:35 GMT
#42
its fine the way it is, look at the BNET NA invitational its very exciting when a player manages to get the game to the 2nd BO3.

Chances are that if one of the players is outclassed it doesn´t really matter because we will get boring finals.
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
August 15 2011 15:36 GMT
#43
I think that it's fine. In a double elimination tournament it's only fair that the person who hasn't lost all tournament benefit from that rule.

That said, I absolutely hate the MLG "extended series" system. That is something that really needs to go.
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
August 15 2011 15:37 GMT
#44
Fair or unfair always depends on the point of view, and there is nothing as "absolutely fair".
Even the 2BoX rules is unfair because the player with the worse win-to-loss ratio through the course of the tournament overall (including finals) can win the whole thing.
Cartel
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada255 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 15:40:58
August 15 2011 15:37 GMT
#45
I have to say im surprised at the polls suggesting most pple think its not fine the way it is.

In double elimination tournaments, where players get 2 chances at winning the trophy, it is absolutely the only FAIR way to have it so that the final match between the two players at the end should have 1-2 possible sets.

If you dont agree with this system, i highly suggest you rethink it completely and thoroughly, as to the reason for it to be that way. If you still do not understand it, what that means is that you think its fair that the player who has lost a series to someone deserves an unfair advantage over the guy who is at the winners bracket and hasn't lost a single set. That is what is unfair.

edit-
I agree with Cyrix about the MLG system, that absolutely has to change. It is 100% not a fair system.
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
August 15 2011 15:37 GMT
#46
If you use double elimination - use double elimination. It's unfair if everyone is allowed to lose once, except the one guy who won the winnerbracket final.

If you want an exciting final - then go single elimination like the NASL. But then dont cry, when people like Ret fall in the first round (ok you may cry about seeding^^).
You cant say "everyone should have a second chance" and then say "Oh but the one guy there should only have one chance!"
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
August 15 2011 15:37 GMT
#47
do what every other video game tournaments does.

loser has to win 2 best of 5s (best of x)
winner just has to win 1 best of 5
ProxyKnoxy
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2576 Posts
August 15 2011 15:40 GMT
#48
I don't agree at all that the winner of the upper bracket should get an advantage. I don't know why but I just plain disagree with it.

ALL finals should be a BO7 in my opinion, although that would probably never happen, the MLG finals were a let down as it was so short
"Zealot try give mariners high five. Mariners not like high five and try hide and shoot zealot"
Bobster
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany3075 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 15:42:42
August 15 2011 15:40 GMT
#49
On August 16 2011 00:37 Cartel wrote:
I have to say im surprised at the polls suggesting most pple think its not fine the way it is.

Same here.

Then again, there are also always 25-30% of people who are fine with the shitty extended series rule at MLG, so it's hard to fathom wtf people are thinking sometimes.


On August 16 2011 00:29 JustPassingBy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 16 2011 00:21 Bobster wrote:
It's as Chill says.

The player from the loser's bracket has to win two BoX because the first one knocks the winner down into the loser's bracket (figuratively) and enables them to play the second BoX on equal standing, thus deciding the ultimate winner.


Having it be just one BoX with a small advantage for the player coming from the WB essentially means that every other player can lose a series and still be in the tournament, except for the guy who won everything so far. He loses one series and doesn't get any second chances. Pretty ridiculous to punish a player for winning in the name of "viewer excitement".

The thing is called Double Elimination because you have to lose twice to be eliminated. Simple.


No, I'd rather see this that all players are allowed to lose one series except in the grand finals, because it weights more than the other sets beforehand.
That seems exceedingly arbitrary to me.

It's a double elimination format except for the finals. I don't think that's logical or particularly fair.


Double elimination is a good tournament format the way it is, I don't see a need to change it.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4721 Posts
August 15 2011 15:42 GMT
#50
I always thought that Bo5/7 with a 1-0 lead for the person coming from the Winners bracket is the way to go. It is a very good compromise between fairness and viewer-friendliness. But I believe for the finals (and only for the finals) two BoX or even an extended series would be fine.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Cartel
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada255 Posts
August 15 2011 15:43 GMT
#51
On August 16 2011 00:40 ProxyKnoxy wrote:
I don't agree at all that the winner of the upper bracket should get an advantage. I don't know why but I just plain disagree with it.

ALL finals should be a BO7 in my opinion, although that would probably never happen, the MLG finals were a let down as it was so short


I can understand why you would believe the system is unfair, but thats where there may be a misunderstanding.

The upper bracket player does not have an advantage.
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
August 15 2011 15:44 GMT
#52
i like the idea to make it double elim until the Semifinals where it becomes a simple single elimination best of 5/7
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 15:49:24
August 15 2011 15:46 GMT
#53
On August 15 2011 23:49 Sveet wrote:
Its not about "having the upper hand" its about set losses in bracket. The person in grand finals from winners bracket has not lost to anyone yet, while the person in losers bracket has. If a bracket is double elimination, a person still in the winners bracket has to lose twice to be knocked out of the tournament and that holds true even in grand finals. The person coming from the losers bracket has already lost 1 set which means he can't lose another one or he will be eliminated.


this. double elimination

it's the most logical and is applied in every other video game tournament that uses double elimination. how does this guy's post not make absolute sense? it will also create hype finals anyways, because the advantage isn't impossible since the bo x are separate.

having a person up 1 game out of a best of 7 makes no logical sense. it is arbitrary (1 out of 7?)

1 set = bo 3 (for semi-finals in losers/winners onwards should be bo5)
GGruss
Profile Joined October 2009
Sweden121 Posts
August 15 2011 15:48 GMT
#54
How is a bo7/9 more exciting than a bo3/5? I don't see it... it's more games, sure, but the sc2 scene doesn't lack för games to watch. Onesided finals in a bo7/9 suck way more than onesided finals in a bo3/5

I like the true double-elim format best. That is if you come from the losers bracket you need to win two series, from the winners just one. It's fair and has the potential to be really exciting.

The OP mixes up extended series and double-elim, and they are two different things.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4721 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 15:50:36
August 15 2011 15:49 GMT
#55
On August 16 2011 00:37 Cartel wrote:
I have to say im surprised at the polls suggesting most pple think its not fine the way it is.

In double elimination tournaments, where players get 2 chances at winning the trophy, it is absolutely the only FAIR way to have it so that the final match between the two players at the end should have 1-2 possible sets.


I think that nearly all people that vote for "up one game" would also say that it is "fine the way it is", just that they prefer a slightly different modell, as long as the player from the Winners Bracket gets some kind of advantage. We can still disagree if the adjustment is fair (since it is quite arbitrary), but right now 80% of the votes want to give an advantage to this player, which I believe is a pretty reasonable number.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
August 15 2011 15:52 GMT
#56
On August 16 2011 00:48 GGruss wrote:
How is a bo7/9 more exciting than a bo3/5? I don't see it... it's more games, sure, but the sc2 scene doesn't lack för games to watch. Onesided finals in a bo7/9 suck way more than onesided finals in a bo3/5

I like the true double-elim format best. That is if you come from the losers bracket you need to win two series, from the winners just one. It's fair and has the potential to be really exciting.

The OP mixes up extended series and double-elim, and they are two different things.


people who still don't understand what real double elimination is, check here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_elimination

no point in using double elimination if you don't use this format.
GiantHandBanana
Profile Joined April 2010
United States51 Posts
August 15 2011 15:53 GMT
#57
I've always been a fan of:
- series starts out best of 3 or 5 or whatever the format is (preferably 5)
- winner's bracket player only needs to win that bo3/5
- if the loser's bracket player wins the series, it becomes a bo5/7 with the scores carrying over.

Sort of an extended series, but not really. It gives the winner's bracket player a pretty significant advantage at first, but he can lose it pretty quickly if he makes mistakes.

Blizzard invitational: + Show Spoiler +
In this system, select and sheth would have gone to a game 7. Would have been amazing imo.
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
August 15 2011 16:02 GMT
#58
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.

Shagg
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland825 Posts
August 15 2011 16:06 GMT
#59
Should be just an elimination and no losers bracket to make it fair and square and non of this bullshit imo. :p
"You're a pro or you're a noob. That's life"
akalarry
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1978 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 16:07:26
August 15 2011 16:07 GMT
#60
On August 16 2011 01:02 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I feel it's a bit silly to justify the way it's done from it being named double elimination. I'd personally want a smaller advantage that the WB gets, since these 2 game finals are such a killer. The WB deserves an advantage, but I don't really agree to the reasoning that because it's called double elimination, it must be that he's up 1 BoX.

Sure if the WB looses, he'd just loose 1 BoX, but he still lost one that he started with an advantage.



it's not an advantage that the winner gets, it's even footing... everyone else has lost a BoX, so he needs to lose TWO BoX to lose the grand finals.

a smaller advantage for the WB? that's not fair for him because everyone else used the exact same advantage.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #96
Mixu vs PercivalLIVE!
ShoWTimE vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings342
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 302
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 23309
Calm 8984
Rain 7470
Bisu 3662
Jaedong 3049
Horang2 1722
Hyuk 1171
BeSt 764
GuemChi 670
Pusan 657
[ Show more ]
Larva 434
firebathero 407
EffOrt 380
Rush 302
Mini 290
ToSsGirL 196
PianO 187
Hyun 157
Snow 72
scan(afreeca) 67
Mind 48
Soulkey 48
ajuk12(nOOB) 48
Sea.KH 48
JulyZerg 47
JYJ41
Aegong 33
Sharp 33
Free 25
HiyA 24
Movie 22
Icarus 20
yabsab 17
Barracks 16
Sacsri 16
soO 16
GoRush 15
IntoTheRainbow 11
Yoon 10
Bale 8
ivOry 4
Dota 2
Gorgc9014
qojqva1499
XcaliburYe348
League of Legends
singsing1832
Dendi1107
Counter-Strike
x6flipin506
byalli226
Other Games
tarik_tv19091
gofns16059
B2W.Neo1273
shahzam490
DeMusliM414
crisheroes334
Liquid`RaSZi312
Lowko161
hiko126
Mew2King75
ArmadaUGS34
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick29536
StarCraft 2
angryscii 13
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV276
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
3h 42m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
11h 42m
The PondCast
21h 42m
WardiTV European League
23h 42m
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 3h
Replay Cast
1d 11h
RSL Revival
1d 21h
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
FEL
4 days
CSO Cup
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.