EPTCan platinum players coach effectively? - Page 4
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holynorth
United States590 Posts
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
On August 06 2011 13:58 Pleiades wrote: Of course a platinum player can definately coach! Wonder why SlayersCella is an extremely good coach but never really see him up in competitive tournaments compared to his teammates? Yes, I know that Cella is not a platinum player... It's good to have a second set of eyes to see what you are doing. That person can probably catch mistakes, question what you're doing in the game, and give advice. Maybe you have less tactical skills but more mechanical skills, or vise versa. Lets say I am a coach, and I have interesting strategies and tactics, but my multitasking is so poor that it is bringing me down. If I coach someone with good mechanical skills like multitasking, I can offer him my strengths as a strategist with his skills and he'll probably become better. IMO combining sets of skills is what makes Koreans better on average than other players around the world. ok dood..... cella made it to the finals of his code a qualifier bracket lets be real for a second ON topic: someone who understand the game enough to coach effectively will be able to play at the low masters level at the very least .... you want to make the sports analogy, it really only becomes valid at this level because now knowledge (maybe mid masters bit whatever work with me here guys!) is complete for everyone so physical skill becomes the deciding factor. You can absolutely help people below, but you really shouldnt give any non mechanical advice (like don't try to explain when to get armor vs weapons from the forge ) | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
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RedJustice
United States1004 Posts
I don't think this is the best constructed experiment, because of so many variables, but basically-- use your brain. When a bronze or silver player comes into these forums and says: I suck at this game, idk how to get better because my timing push is failing since my micro is not spot on... WTH do we all say? l2macro Does anyone even bother to discuss the finer points of the timing push or a marine split or some bullshit? Absolutely not. No one even bothers to consider their replays (if they bothered sharing one). Instead we know that a player in bronze in silver who is struggling to improve needs to build more workers, stop getting supply blocked, and keeping making units. If they can remember to scout from time to time, that could help too. Why do we know this will help a bronze or silver player improve? Because at that level, making more shit will win your games, 90% of the time. Sure there will be games that someone shows up with banshees and all they made was a few roaches, and there are games they lose to poor unit control-- but no one bothers to tell a bronze league player how to scout for the finer signs of banshees or improve their marine split, because it really doesn't matter. Now if someone has managed to get to Platinum, MOST LIKELY they have some understanding that you need to make workers and units (which requires not getting supply blocked) to win. This is the most basic idea of SC2. >.> I could take my little sister who has not played a game in her entire life, sit her in the chair next to me, and say: "See this little number in the top left? Watch it and tell me when I am about to hit the limit. Also say 'build drones or units' every time this other number goes over 100." Because my little sister is not fucking retarded, she could sit through an entire game and remind me not to get supply blocked and to not let my money get too high, with ZERO knowledge of the game. Since bronze and silver league players need to focus all their attention on better macro before worrying about anything else, and because someone who doesn't know anything about the game is capable of helping improve a player's macro, a Platinum player should probably be able to do the same thing. For a bronze player completely newb to the game, a Platinum player is probably also capable of telling them things like-- mauraders are good against roaches, but they can't shoot up, so make marines if you see something flying... So my question: WTF do you think a bronze or silver player needs to learn that a Platinum player can't teach them? .____. | ||
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holynorth
United States590 Posts
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Glockateer
United States254 Posts
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Stiluz
Norway688 Posts
On August 06 2011 11:29 paradox_ wrote: hmm if platinum = TA masters = Prof so that means diamond = unemployed masters grad before giving up and coming back to school edit: interesting experiment, looking forward to seeing the results I am a TA and I agree with this. ^^ | ||
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Horseballs
United States721 Posts
Sure, I know the basics of what makes my builds work and mostly how to manage my economy, but when it comes down to it if I were to be asked "why do you do X at this time in the build?" there is a good chance my answer will be "because that's the build." Anybody can teach somebody a build, but it takes a coach to teach somebody how to play, and in order to do that you need to truly understand the game. | ||
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RaLakedaimon
United States1564 Posts
On August 06 2011 11:43 Chairman Ray wrote: Platinum players cannot coach, but they can certainly teach newer people how to play. Being anywhere below masters means that you don't have a full understanding of the game yet. As for coaching for $, you don't pay for the coaching, you pay to get to meet a pro player and spend time with them. There's too many masters players that will coach for free, so you don't have to pay for coaching if you are just looking to improve. Sums up my thoughts as well, and personally I do think that having someone in say Plat coaching someone from Silver is good but once that person is in Plat as well then get someone from Masters to show you the more intricate parts of game play/mechanics. | ||
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Neorosis
United States18 Posts
I am now Plat, and I can guarantee you I could have taught myself some things back then, with what I know now. I do not understand the hate toward Platinum or Diamond level coaching. Sure, not everything is perfect, but it's probably alot better than the silver or bronze level player that could stand to learn some from a higher level coaching. Will everyone benefit from it, no, but those that want to learn a bit more of the basics, will benefit in spades from any type of coaching, or more like mentoring. Even though I am only platinum, I can pick apart my games mechanically... I also know that I lack alot in the area of micro, macro, scouting and timings. However, I can usually do a pretty good job at seeing where I screw up on replays, or when watching someone else play. Someone at the Platinum level watching over me would have helped a TON when I first started playing, and probably well into Gold. Hell, I bet I could learn things now from Gold or Silver level players that dissected my game play. | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
I do not understand the hate toward Platinum or Diamond level coaching. Sure, not everything is perfect, but it's probably alot better than the silver or bronze level player that could stand to learn some from a higher level coaching. Yea, I remember when I first started playing and my Plat level buddy told me that I need to be building queens and injecting larva haha. If you read this thread, you'd think I should have told him to fuck off until a GM Z was available to corroborate it. | ||
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Existential
Australia2107 Posts
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Comogury
United States412 Posts
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Carryz
United States67 Posts
Play games instead and actually get better. | ||
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Haegr9599
United States210 Posts
But if your just an Average Joe Plat, you can give coaching/advice to people in like Bronze-Gold the same way a Gold leaguer could give advice to someone who is Bronze/Silver ***advice may not be perfect in either instance though =O | ||
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Nimic
Norway1360 Posts
On August 06 2011 16:02 Vul wrote: Yea, I remember when I first started playing and my Plat level buddy told me that I need to be building queens and injecting larva haha. If you read this thread, you'd think I should have told him to fuck off until a GM Z was available to corroborate it. There's a difference between getting tips from better players and coaching | ||
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Geniuszerg
Canada454 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
With this in mind, no, I think a Platinum level player cannot coach effectively. However, that doesn't mean that they can't help out other players. In my mind, a players needs to at least be high masters or GM to be able to coach. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6255 Posts
On August 06 2011 15:10 RedJustice wrote: Why do people have the elitist stick up their asses about this? .___. I don't think this is the best constructed experiment, because of so many variables, but basically-- use your brain. When a bronze or silver player comes into these forums and says: I suck at this game, idk how to get better because my timing push is failing since my micro is not spot on... WTH do we all say? l2macro Does anyone even bother to discuss the finer points of the timing push or a marine split or some bullshit? Absolutely not. No one even bothers to consider their replays (if they bothered sharing one). Instead we know that a player in bronze in silver who is struggling to improve needs to build more workers, stop getting supply blocked, and keeping making units. If they can remember to scout from time to time, that could help too. Why do we know this will help a bronze or silver player improve? Because at that level, making more shit will win your games, 90% of the time. Sure there will be games that someone shows up with banshees and all they made was a few roaches, and there are games they lose to poor unit control-- but no one bothers to tell a bronze league player how to scout for the finer signs of banshees or improve their marine split, because it really doesn't matter. Now if someone has managed to get to Platinum, MOST LIKELY they have some understanding that you need to make workers and units (which requires not getting supply blocked) to win. This is the most basic idea of SC2. >.> I could take my little sister who has not played a game in her entire life, sit her in the chair next to me, and say: "See this little number in the top left? Watch it and tell me when I am about to hit the limit. Also say 'build drones or units' every time this other number goes over 100." Because my little sister is not fucking retarded, she could sit through an entire game and remind me not to get supply blocked and to not let my money get too high, with ZERO knowledge of the game. Since bronze and silver league players need to focus all their attention on better macro before worrying about anything else, and because someone who doesn't know anything about the game is capable of helping improve a player's macro, a Platinum player should probably be able to do the same thing. For a bronze player completely newb to the game, a Platinum player is probably also capable of telling them things like-- mauraders are good against roaches, but they can't shoot up, so make marines if you see something flying... So my question: WTF do you think a bronze or silver player needs to learn that a Platinum player can't teach them? .____. A plat player can certainly help a bronze/silver player. However, a plat player cannot "coach" (the community defined term for coach). See my post above this one. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
In plat, players are devoid of so much base, fundamental game knowledge, that they're really at risk of teaching their student something that is blatantly incorrect, and would thusly lead that player to practice the game incorrectly... In other words, eventually the student would have to relearn the game. | ||
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