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Platinum players can effectively coach anybody under their level. I don't give a crap what other people say. They always say "Diamond and under cannot coach, they don't know how to play" when I myself am a top Diamond player...and am a VERY successful coach...AND have beat Grandmasters. Anybody can coach.
A silver can coach a bronze. A gold can coach a silver or under. Etc etc. Anybody who says "master/gm can only coach" are idiots and usually are not even masters themselves. They just think they are cool for stating the same thing the otheridiots state.
I have coached plat's and lowers very successfully (made a few hundred bucks so far from it) and have even coached a few low diamonds.
Some people in this thread are saying really bad metaphors like "can a high school biology student effectively treat patients" and the answer is yes if they know enough.
I am diamond and know the current metagame, good opening build orders...and everything the professionals know. Theres a difference between me and them though...I play a few hours a day...they play 10.
Go do your experiement and ignore the bad kids that say you can't coach unless your master or GM. They. Are. Idiots.
This sounds like a great idea.
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They can tell Bronze and Silver level players to keep their money close to 0 and keep producing workers and what each unit does and whatnot, but as for game sense and mechanics.. definitely would not want a platinum level player to do that.
On August 07 2011 07:51 D_K_night wrote:
Disagree. You cannot sit someone down, who has zero PC game experience of any kind, is a non-gamer, teach them the game(and let them stop playing whenever they feel like it)and suddenly make them be in Masters in a month. Not happening. You're conveniently ignoring this crucial fact, which all of you elitists tend to ignore or pretend it doesn't exist:
Master league is actually not that hard to get into. My friends who had 0 RTS experience both made diamond pretty easily when the game came out in less than a month.
In BW, I practically started playing multiplayer in ICCUP and got to D+ in like 3-4 weeks and in my opinion, getting and staying in D+ is harder than getting to masters (at least low and mid masters).
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On August 07 2011 08:16 Boraz wrote:
I am diamond and know the current metagame, good opening build orders...and everything the professionals know.
Those last few words are where your argument falls apart in my eyes.
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On August 07 2011 08:20 K3Nyy wrote:They can tell Bronze and Silver level players to keep their money close to 0 and keep producing workers and what each unit does and whatnot, but as for game sense and mechanics.. definitely would not want a platinum level player to do that. Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 07:51 D_K_night wrote:
Disagree. You cannot sit someone down, who has zero PC game experience of any kind, is a non-gamer, teach them the game(and let them stop playing whenever they feel like it)and suddenly make them be in Masters in a month. Not happening. You're conveniently ignoring this crucial fact, which all of you elitists tend to ignore or pretend it doesn't exist:
Master league is actually not that hard to get into. My friends who had 0 RTS experience both made diamond pretty easily when the game came out in less than a month. In BW, I practically started playing multiplayer in ICCUP and got to D+ in like 3-4 weeks and in my opinion, getting and staying in D+ is harder than getting to masters (at least low and mid masters).
When the game came out is the key phrase there. Advancing in the ladder is significantly more difficult than it was a year ago.
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I feel that it's probably safe for a player to coach players say 2 leagues or below the "coaches" league for most common players. I mean, yes, platinum players have many flaws and are not that good when compared to masters players and higher, but you have to realize how bad some of these players are in bronze and silver.
If anything, I mean, I don't think some of the players in bronze or silver even know of the concept of basic macro, and probably just cheese every game.
Obviously, the plat player shouldn't try to give very grand encompassing advice or to go into too much theory, but I think a plat player could help a bronze/silver player significantly without risking passing down misinformation as long as said coach is careful about the extent of his advice.
I mean, just by telling the bronze/silver player to constantly build scvs, not to queue, to try to keep resources low, and to keep expanding/scaling production, these bronze/silver players would probably improve significantly.
I mean, some bronze players don't even know what a-moving is. Yes, you won't be able to get away with amoving once you get to higher levels of play, but it's definitely better than simply moving (as opposed to amoving) and just have units die while under fire.
Just think of it as tutoring. Yes, you might not be anywhere as knowledgeable as the professor or TA, but you probably could still help the player improve. Just don't get overzealous, which could then result in passing down bad habits or misinformation.
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On August 07 2011 08:20 K3Nyy wrote:They can tell Bronze and Silver level players to keep their money close to 0 and keep producing workers and what each unit does and whatnot, but as for game sense and mechanics.. definitely would not want a platinum level player to do that. Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 07:51 D_K_night wrote:
Disagree. You cannot sit someone down, who has zero PC game experience of any kind, is a non-gamer, teach them the game(and let them stop playing whenever they feel like it)and suddenly make them be in Masters in a month. Not happening. You're conveniently ignoring this crucial fact, which all of you elitists tend to ignore or pretend it doesn't exist:
Master league is actually not that hard to get into. My friends who had 0 RTS experience both made diamond pretty easily when the game came out in less than a month.In BW, I practically started playing multiplayer in ICCUP and got to D+ in like 3-4 weeks and in my opinion, getting and staying in D+ is harder than getting to masters (at least low and mid masters).
There's your problem right there, getting into diamond right after release was not nearly as difficult as it is now. If anything, your evidence suggests that using an individuals league placement as an indicator of game knowledge or sense is faulty reasoning.
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On August 07 2011 08:16 Boraz wrote:
Platinum players can effectively coach anybody under their level. I don't give a crap what other people say. They always say "Diamond and under cannot coach, they don't know how to play" when I myself am a top Diamond player...and am a VERY successful coach...AND have beat Grandmasters. Anybody can coach.
A silver can coach a bronze. A gold can coach a silver or under. Etc etc. Anybody who says "master/gm can only coach" are idiots and usually are not even masters themselves. They just think they are cool for stating the same thing the otheridiots state.
I have coached plat's and lowers very successfully (made a few hundred bucks so far from it) and have even coached a few low diamonds.
Some people in this thread are saying really bad metaphors like "can a high school biology student effectively treat patients" and the answer is yes if they know enough.
I am diamond and know the current metagame, good opening build orders...and everything the professionals know. Theres a difference between me and them though...I play a few hours a day...they play 10.
Go do your experiement and ignore the bad kids that say you can't coach unless your master or GM. They. Are. Idiots.
This sounds like a great idea.
A question of pure curiousity?
How did you maange to earn money when lots of master player coach for free. Did you use some special advertising channeL?
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On August 07 2011 08:24 Coriolis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 08:20 K3Nyy wrote:They can tell Bronze and Silver level players to keep their money close to 0 and keep producing workers and what each unit does and whatnot, but as for game sense and mechanics.. definitely would not want a platinum level player to do that. On August 07 2011 07:51 D_K_night wrote:
Disagree. You cannot sit someone down, who has zero PC game experience of any kind, is a non-gamer, teach them the game(and let them stop playing whenever they feel like it)and suddenly make them be in Masters in a month. Not happening. You're conveniently ignoring this crucial fact, which all of you elitists tend to ignore or pretend it doesn't exist:
Master league is actually not that hard to get into. My friends who had 0 RTS experience both made diamond pretty easily when the game came out in less than a month. In BW, I practically started playing multiplayer in ICCUP and got to D+ in like 3-4 weeks and in my opinion, getting and staying in D+ is harder than getting to masters (at least low and mid masters). When the game came out is the key phrase there. Advancing in the ladder is significantly more difficult than it was a year ago.
I disagree. It may be slightly more difficult in the sense that getting to diamond back then was like getting into platinum now or something, but definitely not significantly more difficult.
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On August 07 2011 08:26 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 08:20 K3Nyy wrote:They can tell Bronze and Silver level players to keep their money close to 0 and keep producing workers and what each unit does and whatnot, but as for game sense and mechanics.. definitely would not want a platinum level player to do that. On August 07 2011 07:51 D_K_night wrote:
Disagree. You cannot sit someone down, who has zero PC game experience of any kind, is a non-gamer, teach them the game(and let them stop playing whenever they feel like it)and suddenly make them be in Masters in a month. Not happening. You're conveniently ignoring this crucial fact, which all of you elitists tend to ignore or pretend it doesn't exist:
Master league is actually not that hard to get into. My friends who had 0 RTS experience both made diamond pretty easily when the game came out in less than a month.In BW, I practically started playing multiplayer in ICCUP and got to D+ in like 3-4 weeks and in my opinion, getting and staying in D+ is harder than getting to masters (at least low and mid masters). There's your problem right there, getting into diamond right after release was not nearly as difficult as it is now. If anything, your evidence suggests that using an individuals league placement as an indicator of game knowledge or sense is faulty reasoning.
Well they're still masters now so..
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Too many methodological shortcomings, but have fun with... euh... SC2 !
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Back in my SC:BW days, I used to coach some people who were better players than I was - even going as high as to coach a guy who would later win the unofficial SC:BW Polish Championships.
Generally, a good coach needs to be skilled at metagame much more than an average player does. You can get into master just by having good manual skills and playing tons of games, but that doesn't mean you can coach - that requires an understanding of game mechanics which is beyond the grasp of a typical player in master. One easy test is this: if it happens often that you lose a game and are unable to point out why you lost, you won't be a good coach.
All that said, platinum is probably too low to coach effectively. I consider myself a good example of a "good theory guy who was never a great player, used to be a decent player back in my playing days but now just plays a few games from time to time" and yet I barely have any problems obtaining diamond league placement (and I play random). It's really hard to have a good fundamental understanding of game mechanics and still be stuck in platinum. However, I wouldn't put it past some diamond coaches to be reasonably competent. What's more important, however, is that I wouldn't trust a master or even a grandmaster player to be a good coach just because they're a good player. Those two things don't necessarily go together.
If you want a test of how good a coach someone is, just pick a big problem of yours (such as for example playing ZvZ when opponent goes main-only fast roaches) and get them to give you advice, then see if it works. If you have a really big problem with a certain matchup / strategy, a good coach can usually resolve that pretty quickly (unless it's a case of a general imbalance). If they can't - well, you probably shouldn't bother anyways.
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Well... up until mid-diamond game sense doesn't particularly matter... so if it's coaching players of Gold and lower, why the hell not?
(TBH I feel like a bronze player that has strong RTS sense could be a good coach... I mean even if Day[9] didn't play SC2 he'd still be able to ask you pivotal questions about your play with a rudimentary understanding of the game...)
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On August 06 2011 12:42 mrgoochio wrote:
I don't understand why everybody thinks lower level players cant be higher level coaches. How many sports coaches do you know that can compete in the sport theyre coaching? I'll admit that the comparison isn't completely fair because sports are typically much more physical than SC2, but even so, while some people may not be able to keep their composure and analyze strategy real time while playing the game, it doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to give sound advice from the coaches seat.
Obviously a coach needs good game sense and that TYPICALLY comes from hundreds of actual game hours, but not always.
Many coaches are former professionals or at the very least have exceptional experience in their sport. Basically, it's like saying many coaches are pro SC2 players or at the very least high level masters who compete with pros.
To be perfectly honest, platinum players can at best "coach" bronze levels, since they are still losing to golds probably 25% of the time? Even diamond players can have very very simple problems in macro...I really just have an issue with using the word "coach", I think it's fantastic if you're willing to practice and play some customs with some strangers and help them out, to call it "coaching" is just a pet peeve of mine even if it's close to the same idea.
Whatever happens, you don't need experiments or some crazy system to "prove" platinum coaching works, you'll never prove that. Just teach and give suggestions if you feel like it, you will and SHOULD never be given any kind of money for that because MASTER players do coach for free or for extremely minimal costs and if they are choosing to teach with any actual ability, they won't be "pulling their hair out" from their students.
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Platinum leaguers shouldn't coach imo, its better for a masters player because they understand the game much better and they have a lot more to offer
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Some interesting notions on this thread I must say. As a Platinum player myself who has written a few SC2 strategy articles for Force Strategy Gaming I believe without a question that a Platinum player can coach. However, the title of the thread is a bit vague, like so much digital content tends to be. Can a Platinum player coach the lower metal leagues? Most definitely. In fact, I think most would agree that a Plat level coach is probably ideal for those who are struggling in Bronze - Gold.
Not only is it ideal for the lower level students but its ideal for the coach as well. The act of coaching in itself benefits the coach because anyone who truly wants to help others with the game will be spending all the time they can expanding their knowledge of the game. This is part of my point. Time spent expanding knowledge of the game doesn't necessarily mean playing but in fact in many cases results from not playing but watching.
For example, I have to point to Artosis. I would say his understanding of the game is nigh unfathomable. His execution however tends to fall short of his understanding. I'm not hating on the guy, I'm a fan. I'm just saying, he clearly understands all he needs to be one of the best in the world. He understands the game possibly better than many of the players he watches. However, because he has spent so much time WATCHING the game and he has a life, it absolutely must detract from his time to spend PLAYING. Thus, his ability falls short of his understanding.
Asking if a Plat can coach those below him is NOT the same as asking if this same person could teach those at his skill and above.
Being a good teacher/coach requires a certain kind of personality and communication ability as much as it is having the knowledge of the game. In addition, KNOWING what to do and actually being able to do it are very different things. Again, think about Artosis. (Note: I'm not saying Artosis = Plat level coach trying to teach pros. Artosis = high understanding stemming from watching not playing)
There are plenty of people at the highest levels of the game that would make horrible coaches/teachers for a variety of reasons. Like I said, it takes a certain someone to do it truly effectively. As has been stated, I would suggest there are Platinum players out there who are Platinum more or less because they simply do not have the time to practice 10 hours a day. Yes this is a bit of a blanket statement but you catch my drift.
I say do it and try to get as many people as possible involved to increase your sample size. This shouldn't be perceived as some high level empirical study but rather just an interesting and "cute" little look into the benefits of teaching the game to others. Like I said, I really think teaching the game to others is a way that you can benefit your own play and understanding as well.
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Please do not assume anything about the players knowledge by their League.
Your ladder rank doesn't reflect anything of the sort.
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On August 07 2011 08:16 Boraz wrote:
I am diamond and know the current metagame, good opening build orders...and everything the professionals know.
I think this is delusional to the point of folly. I mean...re-read that sentence bud. I swear, many TL members could use a healthy dose of reality now and again. The egos, my god, the egos.
On August 07 2011 09:38 Exstasy wrote:
Please do not assume anything about the players knowledge by their League.
Your ladder rank doesn't reflect anything of the sort.
I would disagree strenuously with this but I'm tired of having this argument.  Seems that everyone who is in platinum or diamond should really be masters level and they have the same amount of game knowledge, refined timings and depth of strategic options. Or at least that's what many people want to believe here.
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im a platnium terran ill coach!
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I am mainly responding to the subject of this thread - I would think if you are coaching someone below you it would be more like practice sessions since clearly you both have something to learn. While scrolling down the the reply box I noticed a $ sign, in no way should you charge. Best way to learn is with practice partners, not some dude telling you to build more drones or copy his replay (Sorry, I gave gosucoaching a shot, worst 70 bucks I have spent). And that was from an EG member. So really, just offer to be a practice partner so you both can gain something, there are a lot of free Masters level coaches here on TL now that charging for lackluster knowledge is kind of a joke. This is only my opinion.
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Seems that everyone who is in platinum or diamond should really be masters level and they have the same amount of game knowledge, refined timings and depth of strategic options. Or at least that's what many people want to believe here
People in Bronze - Gold who are struggling with getting their asses kicked aren't going to benefit from a high level teacher any more than they would from a competent Platinum teacher. This is because lower level players don't need depth of strategic options.
I think people struggling in the metal leagues are struggling in part because they feel compelled to have a wide variety of strategic possibilities when they should be spending their time perfecting AT THE MOST one build per MU. I would even suggest that people really struggling should narrow their focus down to a single build and work it to death on every MU. Although it would be better to have a friend to do this with as opposed to laddering.
As many Protoss are aware...a truly refined 4 gate alone is enough to carry you through at least Gold before it stops working as much. Of course if you want to truly understand the game you aren't going to 4 gate every time. However, if you're having a hard time you need to establish a foundation to work from. Establishing your foundation with one build is good because SC2 is a real time strategy and things are going to happen in real time that require you to respond and adjust.
When you can pull of your "go to" build in spite of all the various things that can happen in an RTS you have officially established your foundation. Work to reinforce it with partner practice, coaching, lurking in TL forums, and so forth.
Not to mention the other points I made in my first post about teaching being good for the teacher as well as the student, the difference between understanding vs. ability, the compromise between understanding and ability where understanding stems not from playing but from watching, etc.
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EPT
