I don't do coaching because I feel I don't really know anything and I would probably just teach people inaccurate and misleading stuff if I tried (I'm in mid master league. I think it would be a very bad idea for anyone in platinum to try to teach anything else than very basic concepts.

Ilintar

Poland794 Posts

August 07 2011 12:04 GMT

#142

There are multiple reasons for a good theoretical player not getting into master league, including, but not limited to:

* trying out suboptimal build orders to get a better feel of the game
* playing risky strategies "for fun" while not having the manual skills to carry them out
* playing too few games, thus not having a good feel of the proper timings
* having insufficient manual skills (very low APM / very bad multitasking)
* having gaps in the fundamental skills due to lack of playing time (forgetting to build supplies/pylons/overlords, forgetting to train probes/SCVs/call mules/spawn larvas)

All of the above have little to no influence on whether said player can successfully coach, especially if he/she is aware of the abovementioned flaws in his/her game.

I think a lot of people are overplaying the difference between platinum/diamond players and master players when it comes to metalevel skills such as understanding the game. From looking at good players in SC:BW, it's much more often the case of a single build / single strategy being trained to perfection, often employing the fact that few opposing players have the skill and understanding needed to exploit any flaws in a given dominant strategy.

Geordie

United Kingdom653 Posts

August 07 2011 12:06 GMT

#143

I am platinum myself and I am pretty sure nobody at this level should be coaching, in my opinion in the long run it will do more harm than good for the player who is being coached as they will just catch bad habits from their coaches.

And besides the point, I think anybody bronze-gold doesnt really need coaching and all they need is to get a lot of games under their belt as if your macro is decent you will crush everybody in the lower leagues.

Zheryn

Sweden3653 Posts

August 07 2011 13:11 GMT

#144

Platinum is extremely low and the players there don't know much about the game so I don't know if it would be very good. Heck, I'm Diamond/Masters and don't know much about the game, definately not enough to teach someone else how they should play since I don't even know that myself.

eohs

United States677 Posts

August 07 2011 13:15 GMT

#145

I think that u can help people below you maybe give them tips, but u shouldn't coach a lot because the fact is , if ur in plat you may not know a lot of things. Now if u share some tips to someone who is gold or bronze or something then that is fine. But the fact is if ur in plat something isn't right :D so teaching someone else bad habits isn't gonna help, kinda like the blind leading the blind type of thing.

karpo

Sweden1998 Posts

August 07 2011 13:23 GMT

#146

I'm high platinum and i have decent micro/APM but no real idea on buildorders and stuff. You need someone who's a good teacher AND plays the game on a high enough level to really grasp all the finer details.

Deleted User 61629

1664 Posts

August 07 2011 14:44 GMT

#147

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Ilintar

Poland794 Posts

August 07 2011 15:32 GMT

#148

On August 07 2011 23:44 Inori wrote:
That's all just excuse for people to feel like they're better than they are.
I do all that, especially the lack of playing time (due to work I have month+ gaps in-between login times), I still manage to play even with mid masters people (and can take out a game or two from high masters/GM if I'm serious about it).

Bottom line: if you're good "in theory" you should be easly able to hit masters. If you can't hit masters, then you shouldn't be coaching, sorry.

How's that an excuse? I do remember the difference in my playing skill back in the SC:BW days, when I spent some time playing / honing my skills and focused on a single race I was able to hit B on PGT, when I fooled around, played sporadically and played random I barely got out of D+/C-. Nothing in my understanding of game theory had changed in between. I'm simply pointing out that motor skills and habit might play more of a role in your rank than you're willing to admit.

I do agree there's a cutoff point below which you probably shouldn't coach, but I don't think that cutoff point is as high as some people here suggest (eg. grandmaster / high master).

synapse

China13814 Posts

August 07 2011 15:39 GMT

#149

There are good teachers and bad teachers. The best SCII players may not be able to teach a lower level how to improve, while a lower level player could also be very good at starcraft theory or finding flaws in gameplay, etc. That being said, of course you would generally prefer a Masters teacher over a Platinum teacher. But the bottom line is that Platinum only gives a tiny bit of info on how well someone can teach another.

EggYsc2

620 Posts

August 07 2011 15:39 GMT

#150

They def can.
You dont need to pay a pro $60/h to tell you to make drones
=/
I find buying coaching outrageously ineffective.
I got from bronze-masters by myself

me_viet

Australia1350 Posts

August 07 2011 15:42 GMT

#151

question is, why would you want to learn from a plat player, when there are so many master players out there offering free coaching =\

Deleted User 61629

1664 Posts

August 07 2011 15:45 GMT

#152

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Djzapz

Canada10681 Posts

August 07 2011 15:50 GMT

#153

I think that platinum "coaches" should be like platinum casters. They don't have enough knowledge of to pass on much of it to people, especially not pro players.

Basically, a platinum coach is a cheerleader and a secretary.

I play in masters as protoss and get a good record, but there's no way in hell I could coach a Zerg or a Terran effectively even though I have watched countless hours of tournaments and first person streaming of every race. I couldn't coach a Protoss player either. I would be useless to pros, anyway.

Ilintar

Poland794 Posts

August 07 2011 17:15 GMT

#154

On August 08 2011 00:45 Inori wrote:
Did you actually read my post? That's an excuse because if you're good enough, you're good enough. In fact, main difference between plat and masters is the theory - build order knowledge, meta game trends, overall game sense, timings knowledge.
Motor skills difference fully kicks in at like very high masters/GM level. Below that you can get even score against active players. If you're good "in theory", that is.

I read your post, I just disagree on the assumptions, which I believe I even illustrated using an example, so let me explain. Let's assume for a moment that D+/C- on PGT corresponded to platinum level and B was mid-master (I think that's a pretty reasonable estimate). Then, what I'm trying to tell you that my level changed from mid-master to platinum without any noticeable change in my grasp of theory.

I think your claim that the main difference between platinum and master is theory is incorrect - I would agree that the main difference between master and grandmaster is theory, but not lower. Also, a lot of the things which you list as "theory" (build order knowledge, timings) are not what I consider to be theory in general. By "theory" I mean general tactical/strategic skill, knowledge of hard/soft counters, specifics of matchup dynamics, strenghts and weaknesses of each race with respect to specific game styles and so on. Timings and build orders are more a question of skill than of theoretical knowledge.

iYiYi

United States489 Posts

August 07 2011 17:17 GMT

#155

Honestly I would never let a platinum player coach me. If you really want to coach badly though, I guess you could teach platinum leaguers and lower.

LisKelicious

Germany36 Posts

August 07 2011 17:45 GMT

#156

Where is a Zerg Master how coach fpr free? i need one who coach me. I am Platinum rank 1 and i wanna become a Master Player.Plz pm

Sated

England4983 Posts

August 07 2011 18:07 GMT

#157

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Technique

Netherlands1542 Posts

August 07 2011 18:25 GMT

#158

Get good yourself first, can't be a teacher if you don't master the knowledge yourself first right?

Besides this whole coaching thing is stupid to begin with.

blabber

United States4448 Posts

August 07 2011 18:27 GMT

#159

I can imagine most coaching sessions involve the "coach" just saying: "get better mechanics"

FezTheCaliph

United States492 Posts

August 07 2011 18:40 GMT

#160

Honestly when I was a bronze/silver scrub(instead of a plat scrub) I got some help from a diamond player. There was a lot of little stuff that helped me out a ton that seems like common sense. I wasn't doing stuff like hotkeying my queens or individual hatcheries, my armies or anything of the sort. When you are that low level, I think anyone can give you some advice, or send you in the right direction for some advice. Obviously higher level coaching is better, but whatever you can get is nice too. I learned a ton just from having friends obs games and give me advice and things to focus on either during or after. And if its free its free. So long as you don't go around contradicting things that higher level people would say or encouraging bad ideas, you should be fine.