EPTCan platinum players coach effectively? - Page 10
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david.oh.k
United States92 Posts
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r_con
United States824 Posts
Ive seen too many high diamonds not be able to spend their money effectively. As i get better and better, mechanics are what i keep coming back too. But really, platinum players really don't have the mechanics or game sense to really be of any help except the very basics. I mean, that's fine to get them on track, and teach them like say a hotkey layout. Or point them to better knowledge than yourself(like day9). so meh | ||
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MeLlamoSatan
United States136 Posts
How many people fall helplessly to terrible cheese in bronze that wouldn't if they had someone who was platinum-level in their ear? What about not expanding until 15+ mins with Zerg? Or how to handle the inevitable player who makes 4 bunkers 6 tanks and 30 turrets and then goes hard air? How are they to handle that? Not saturating their bases. Every time someone from gold/platinum/low-diamond comes to high level players with questions or looking for advice they almost always hear the same thing: Work on your mechanics. Your macro isn't good enough. Fair, of course, usually they're dead-on. What about the bronze kid who has atrocious macro? I can't help him? The first 4 leagues are almost entirely about mechanics. Absurd that I (plat random player) couldn't remind a zerg player to be strict with things like injects, so eventually its almost a instinct to do it. Or show them how to wall off with Terran effectively, or show them that basic toss wall with the zealot (v zerg). Or explain how walling in TvT can suck a lot because tanks will blow your wall away from afar. Or show them how d clicking the dropping unit allows it to move while dropping. Or show a terran that you cannot wait until 25+ supply to get that OC. Or keep them making worker units pretty consistently, instead of being complete finished with 16 workers all game. Or show that guy who likes to 15 hatch how to position his spine crawler to hit the bunker w/o taking hits. Or show them map specific stuff like how a pylon on delta quadrant (rip) can reach into that tucked away expansion and you can warp in there. Or on taldarim, the blink path into the main. I could go on forever. Bronze/Silver has plenty to learn from Plat, just like I could learn plenty from any pro. Of course, having White-ra or someone teach you is FAR better than having anyone in plat/diamond, but that doesn't mean that you have nothing to gain as a bronze/silver player from higher plat/lower diamond player. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32044 Posts
All that stuff about how there's coaches in traditional sports who were not elite in their craft as players but turned out to be coaches is bunk. Almost every single coach in any of the major sports played in the highest professional league at some point (NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB) or at least made to the highest minor league or college level (AHL, AAA for baseball, NCAA for football and basketball are comparables to minor leagues with professional atmosphere) They were all at one point better than like 90% of people playing their respective sport. A dude in plat is better than maybe half of people playing SC2 absolute tops? You won't get much use out of someone like that unless you are terrible to begin with. | ||
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MeLlamoSatan
United States136 Posts
On August 19 2011 00:44 Hawk wrote: They were all at one point better than like 90% of people playing their respective sport. A dude in plat is better than maybe half of people playing SC2 absolute tops? You won't get much use out of someone like that unless you are terrible to begin with. And people who are starting out (Bronze/Silver level) ARE terrible to begin with. | ||
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MeLlamoSatan
United States136 Posts
These are the little leagues. Random dads who played in highschool 15 years ago can coach with plenty of success. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32044 Posts
On August 19 2011 00:51 MeLlamoSatan wrote: Random dads who played in highschool 15 years ago can coach with plenty of success. They also don't try to charge you, which is what most people offering coaching in SC2 are trying to do | ||
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MeLlamoSatan
United States136 Posts
On August 19 2011 00:54 Hawk wrote: They also don't try to charge you, which is what most people offering coaching in SC2 are trying to do No. Read the OP. This is a free program. If someone in Masters/GM is charging, word. | ||
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TheLOLas
United States646 Posts
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sethr0
Canada20 Posts
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ssartor
United States129 Posts
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Far.771
United States51 Posts
to be honest, when the skill gap is too large between the teacher and the student it kind of feels like a lot of information the coach would be trying to relate to the student would just go straight over their head. for example. a lot of things masters players do in their gameplay they do almost instinctively. because they've been playing so long and learned why they need to do those things. you could try to teach or coach that to a bronze player. but he's not going to have a clue whatsoever why you'd even need to do those things. and if you try to explain why, the "why" is probably a metagame response to another variable. and the chain just gets longer and longer between to two the larger the skill gap. so just imo but, you probably don't want the skill gap to be too large as well as too similar. feels like there's probably a healthy medium. relation of the material you're trying to teach can be tough sometimes. fact is. not everyone can teach....well at least.....some of it is going to have to do with who in particular is trying to teach. and if they're good at relating material or not. whether or not they're capable of understanding what their "student" is capable of and understands in the game. | ||
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Tokyla
Canada42 Posts
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sethr0
Canada20 Posts
On August 19 2011 01:23 Tokyla wrote: sethr0 that is not true. Platinum players can still coach however compared to GM/M of course it would be less effective because GM/M have more experience and knowledge over the game. But Platinum players do have basic knowledge too of the game like macro, micro, scouting, saturation, etc. Teaching that to bronze and gold will be really helpful to them. Also why does it matter about credibility just because they aren't pro? Higher rank players giving free lessons to lower rank players is a thing that should be welcomed and to help them improve in as a starcraft player. I agree with you to a point. I think they could probably help with mechanics and basic information like that. But when it comes to decision making and game play analysis, this should be left to M/GM | ||
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Far.771
United States51 Posts
On August 19 2011 01:08 sethr0 wrote: imo, plat players can't coach because they will have no credibility. Anything anyone says mid diamond and lower can't be assumed to be true. game theory and execution are two completely different things. you could understand the game from to back but only have 4 total fingers on both of your hands. you ain't going to be able to execute for shit. depends on what you're teaching i suppose. kind of feels like mechanics/execution and game theory should be separate teaching "topics" when it comes to "can this person coach?" | ||
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MeLlamoSatan
United States136 Posts
This is nothing more than dads casually coaching little leagues. Sure, none of them ever played past high school, but they know how to play football. They can tell you what a 3 and 4 point stance is (platinum). They know that The Option owns in lower levels (strong lower-league rushes) but once you get to the really high levels (diamond/master/gm), defensive ends are too good and they'll destroy the option. And they might be able to take that kid with talent to a different level, where someone who is/used to be quite a legitimate football player (White-Ra, or insert your favorite pro) can take them and really develop them into something more elite (HS/college). This is a progression. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
But needless to say they are no where near as effective as for example masters or GM. In my opinion there is little point in platinum players coaching, as it would probably take very little time for their student to get to their level by simply playing the game. Also, when there is so many masters players coaching for free, why would people want to be coached by platinum players? | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32044 Posts
On August 19 2011 00:59 MeLlamoSatan wrote: No. Read the OP. This is a free program. If someone in Masters/GM is charging, word. I'm talking about coaching as a whole. Most people offering it are doing it for money, or doing it for free with the intention of eventually getting money from it eventually in some way. this individual thread promoting his services is nothing new, just one of several hundred people trying to do the same thing with the same end goal. And just because it's free doesn't change the fact that a plat player really is not someone who should be used as a source for how to play well in starcraft | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On August 19 2011 01:29 Far.771 wrote: game theory and execution are two completely different things. you could understand the game from to back but only have 4 total fingers on both of your hands. you ain't going to be able to execute for shit. depends on what you're teaching i suppose. kind of feels like mechanics/execution and game theory should be separate teaching "topics" when it comes to "can this person coach?" But the thing with SC2 is that you can only really learn the strategy/theory part of the game by playing a ton of games yourself. Of course you can pick some stuff up from watching vods and streams but you won't really understand it unless you've played those situations yourself. As much as some people like to think so, you can't be 'Masters level with gold execution/mechanics'. Day9 has said this before in one of his dailies; If you're in Platinum league you're a Platinum league player and nothing else. Play more and improve and you'll be a Diamond/Masters league player. That's not to say that someone in Platinum league can't help out people in bronze-silver, but I wouldn't call that coaching. | ||
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Far.771
United States51 Posts
On August 19 2011 01:51 Logros wrote: But the thing with SC2 is that you can only really learn the strategy/theory part of the game by playing a ton of games yourself. Of course you can pick some stuff up from watching vods and streams but you won't really understand it unless you've played those situations yourself. As much as some people like to think so, you can't be 'Masters level with gold execution/mechanics'. Day9 has said this before in one of his dailies; If you're in Platinum league you're a Platinum league player and nothing else. Play more and improve and you'll be a Diamond/Masters league player. That's not to say that someone in Platinum league can't help out people in bronze-silver, but I wouldn't call that coaching. hah, well that's another issue entirely. what the best/most efficient way to learn the game is. personally i think experience and repetition are by far the best and most efficient ways to learn this game. | ||
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