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On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups.
lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
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On August 02 2011 15:59 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 15:55 acrimoneyius wrote:On August 02 2011 14:48 Gfox wrote:On August 02 2011 14:10 Inori wrote:On August 02 2011 13:49 Falcor wrote:
if p gets reavers its almost guranteed that p will lose colli, archons or ht..no way tehyd give prot 4 aoe units would they? I'd give away Colo for Reaver any day. With the unit pathing and how well units clump in sc2 the reaver would literally break the game... Stupid comments like this make me face palm. Yes, compare a reaver's shot that you can predict and react to the uninteresting, auto-move centric game play involved with colossus. We already see marine splitting against several splash units, how would reaver be any different? Low skill Terrans don't need good splits against low skill Zergs. They would with Reavers. More important, Reavers need shuttles to be interesting, and buffing the Warp Prism heath for good reaver harass makes them PRETTY FUCKING GOOD for other warp-in harass. You'd have to choose one or the other, or redesign the reaver pretty heavily, I think
Low skill Terrans can just make marauders, and they will eat reavers alive. Low skill zergs can just make roaches or mutas and they will eat reavers alive. Problem?
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On August 03 2011 05:47 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 03:54 Sixes wrote:On August 03 2011 03:39 Probe1 wrote:
Did you seriously just compare creep to siege tanks? My entire response was just derailed by reading that.
Did you
Seriously
Just compare Creep..
To Siege Tanks...
Also, Sixes, Zerg does have vision where creep is. No need to "upgrade" it to do something it already does. I meant vision on creep regardless of the overlord or tumor still being there. A Terran/Toss can do a quick advance killing tumors and end up on creep that you don't have vision on. And a massive ling surround on creep can be extremely destructive and is effectively a zoning tool. I never claimed it was as effective as tanks. Quite frankly I think tanks should be taken out of the bleeding game just like hydras but they are iconic of BW and consequently are kept. Anything that has a tactical description that reads "if it's there you can't ever attack cost effectively" seems rather silly. I would like to see something that makes creep more resilient and a better zoning tool, now how to do that is up for debate, I just see it as an existing foundation that seems like it could be expanded upon. It is also much more interesting than just adding a unit like the siege tank/lurker/colossus which just sits there and does obscene damage without any micro or control required. Creep requires consistent spreading and has a very high skill (or APM I guess) cap. Instead of a siege unit I'd prefer a zergling "leap" (as they seem to have added to the single player) which could actually get the swarm into combat. now if that leap had range 6 off creep and range 12 on creep, you have a crazy zoning tool that would make opponents very careful about attacking on creep. If the leap just allowed to skip cliffs in the downwards direction it could be a lot of fun (so lings can't jump up into main bases but they can swarm down onto lower ones or out of a base after a drop or they can swarm an army from a cliff-top). Come to think of it there is also no way to reduce larvae cost ... what about an upgrade (at Hive?) to make lings be 100 minerals for 4 from 1 larvae? This would make them a much more valid late game unit. Anyways, I'm just throwing out ideas which don't involve drastic overhauls or porting in a BW unit while hopefully feeling swarmy (and avoiding the downsides of chokes and splash to some extent). Tank's aren't just iconic, they define the Terran race. Not talking about just lore, but TvZ has always revolved around the tank. Without it you don't have Terrans you have another variant of the Protoss race. While you're at it lets remove lings. The only reason they have that is because they are an BW iconic unit. Let's dilute SC2 to roach + creep v marauders + drops /sarcasm. I was basically agreeing with you up until then. But then I realized you're point of view was screw map positioning and tactics all I ever want to do is play mobile armies vs mobile armies and make sure Zerg has the best vision and fastest units. Anything slow and strong is stupid. Also if not tanks... do you really want another walking splash unit for the terrans? How about if we gave Ghosts irradiate... wait that sounds like collosi and storm... oh...
Slow and steady is the Terran style (if they decide to use it because bio is pretty good at killing people too) so why is everyone here raving about the lurker (which is slow and steady and in fact very similar to a tank with a setup time and an anti-ground splash). As you said we don't want Terran to be another Protoss so why do people want Zerg to be another Terran?
Actually I am absolutely fine with map positioning and tactics but when tanks can force a half map stalemate like on Shakuras they completely negate any form of tactics, you aren't going to stop them getting there, it's 1 tank shot from their natural. They are the only unit that negates absolutely every Zerg ground based attack. Colossi can be overwhelmed and need support, they don't melt roaches or lings fast enough to get away without any buffering units. Tanks can. They just sit there and if you have 6-8 tanks there is nothing Zerg can do on the ground (ultras being so far down the tech tree they aren't often a solution) that is even remotely cost effective.
Now if people want a tank vs lurker standoff ... have fun, but I think it's a pretty dumb idea quite frankly. If anything Zerg should be getting ways to swarm or overwhelm, not ways to turtle relying on a few lurkers. The sad part is that Terrans with bio and hellions feel more aggressive and swarm-like sometimes than the Zerg do because with their range and better dropships (and very cost effective units in small numbers) they can afford to attack from all angles and keep up that constant pressure.
Maybe 8 ling overlord drops will become the norm and we just haven't discovered how the swarm can work yet but in the meantime I think something involving more/better/more resilient creep and ways for the Zerg to be a swarm without just getting mauled at a choke would give us better gameplay than getting a tank of our own.
Edit:
Here's an idea, give the zerglings some form of leap forward (saving them both the "getting stuck" and having to close the distance so far) and make them take extra damage from single target shots but not be affected by splash when jumping. It means you would need to actually support those tanks or they will die. right now all you have to worry about is mutas and given thor range that isn't a huge issue.
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On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled.
Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't.
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I agree that Terran is the most versatile and interesting race, but i would be really disappointed if the other races got new units while Terran didn't.
I would like to see terran receive another mech unit! Preferably a unit that could make mech viable against Protoss, (Not just with 1-base All-ins) A middle ground unit that would be a little slower than a hellion and less effective to killing workers but instead more effective versus the protoss ground army. (Yes i know this sounds like a vulture xd.)
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Actually your talking about a Ghost on wheels...
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I also think the baneling is just bad game design (just like blue flame hellions, which are now super-vultures buffed further by each base requiring larger worker saturation), I would be happy enough if they were replaced with lurkers. +2 baneling drops on worker lines can be ridiculous, zergs are starting to learn to attack at the front in mass while using speed overlords to drop on workers, and workers can't outrun speed overlords with banes if they have to go around a sim city. Baneling landmines are also kind of stupid and luck-based. It's kind of like a lurker already but one-shot-kills-all in a huge circular radius.
I think their role would be much better replaced by the lurker in almost all aspects.
Also I think it's interesting he publicly mentioned how people are complaining about fungal growth. Hopefully soon we'll see their decision on whether or not infestors are truly OP.
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On August 03 2011 06:26 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled. Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't.
thats because foreign players suck in general.
the top players are korean, so we should look at them as examples.
korean terrans are dominating.
(youre basically implying that terran isnt a good race but good players just pick terran which is bullshit anways)
you cant just segment the players and say if terran is so damn good then the best players in bronze, gold, plat, diamond, masters should all be terran.
doesnt work like that
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Dear DB:
Please remove destructible rocks from all maps / missions / misc content from Wings of Liberty, then relabel the game as Heart of the Swarm.
I will attend the midnight sales for your expansion.
Thx.
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On August 03 2011 06:42 Zorgaz wrote:
I agree that Terran is the most versatile and interesting race, but i would be really disappointed if the other races got new units while Terran didn't.
I would like to see terran receive another mech unit! Preferably a unit that could make mech viable against Protoss, (Not just with 1-base All-ins) A middle ground unit that would be a little slower than a hellion and less effective to killing workers but instead more effective versus the protoss ground army. (Yes i know this sounds like a vulture xd.)
Or it sounds like a Goliath xd
On August 03 2011 06:54 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:26 Alpino wrote:On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled. Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't. thats because foreign players suck in general. the top players are korean, so we should look at them as examples. korean terrans are dominating. (youre basically implying that terran isnt a good race but good players just pick terran which is bullshit anways) you cant just segment the players and say if terran is so damn good then the best players in bronze, gold, plat, diamond, masters should all be terran. doesnt work like that
Actually what he's trying to say is that Terran isn't too strong as evidenced by the lack of foreigner Terran dominance. Comparing foreigners to foreigners we seem to have more top tier Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, White-Ra, etc) if anything and then maybe Zerg (Idra, Ret, Dimaga, etc).
He's not drawing any conclusions other than that you cannot make any similar conclusions about Terrans being strong by looking at the Korean scene.
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On August 03 2011 06:00 Powster wrote:
A harass unit for protoss... I cant wait for beta to possibly try out one :D Personally I don't care if they take away colossus if we get a unit that can really harass. My style is to force a guy to multitask.. but its so so hard as protoss compared to the other races. I have been offracing a bit just to enjoy their harass capabilities.. Winning by making a guy fall apart from harass feels so good..
This. As protoss you have to keep your units together and you don't have any real harassing unit. Maybe Pheonix but you will have to go out of your way to get them since stargates aren't exactly common. This is why I almost switched to terran but then I realised I didn't want to be en jävla terran. Thank you Naniwa 
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On August 03 2011 06:16 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups. lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
I agree 100%. Warp-in mechanic has turned PvP into a 4-gate fest, made Protoss rushes too strong, and made late-game TvP and ZvP a nightmare for the T/Z, due to almost instant and wherever you want reinforcement system.
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On August 03 2011 06:16 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups. lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
I feel like Terran being too flexible is partly a problem with the other races not being flexible enough.
I would say Zerg is the least flexible, and definitely needs the most improvement, right now it feels like Zerg is too focussed on overcoming the flaws in the race and reaching that optimal economy, while Terran and Protoss rely a lot more on the strengths of the race (maybe Protoss is too far the opposite way and relies too much on the races strengths to the point of being one dimensional.).
I don't know if Blizzard intended the races to play out this way, but I agree with Dustin Browder and think that instead of Terran units being weakened, or got rid of to make the race more stagnant and less flexible, they should add and improve units, and remove boring units from the other units to get them to a similar position.
The examples he gives are great, Zerg is actually the race that probably appeals to me the most in theory, but the flexibility of Terran makes it a lot more enjoyable to play. So many Zerg units feel clunky and unpolished; Corrupters (definitely Corrupters, they're so boring and they're only purpose in the game is to specifically counter certain units), Hydras, Roaches, Overseers. I think too many of the units have roles that are too defined and either need to be given more, or consolidated into a more fun unit. Personally I think I'd like to see roaches go, just because it feels like the only reason they exist is for a few cheeses and so Zerg don't die before they get out better units, Zerglings could fill that role if they were tweaked. It would be nice if Hydra's felt more zergy too, maybe sort of like a cross between what they are now and a zergling, in general I think more zergy is the way to go with the zerg race, or at least make it so that is a viable possibility (back to flexibility).
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On August 03 2011 06:16 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 04:28 pwadoc wrote:...Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. I have been saying this for months. I guess obvious things are crazy until Browder says them. The terran race is built in a way that makes it fundamentally difficult to balance the TvX matchups. lol I've been saying that sc2 is designed poorly since beta. Along with Terran's problems, the warp gate mechanic for Protoss ruins the Protoss matchups
It wouldn't if Gateway cooldown time was slightly shorter (5 seconds) than Warpgate cooldown time, and would allow for much more strategic variety.
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What makes me wonder about Lurkers is that they fire like a hellion (straight line in front of them).
In SC2 the units creates a concave quickly and that will reduce the effectiveness by alot.
The reason that works with hellions is that they are fast and can position themselves in angles so that the fire line hits multiple targets.
You can also look at the collosus and see why they are so good. they have the swoop attack that is designed to hit multiple target in a concave.
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On August 03 2011 07:06 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:42 Zorgaz wrote:
I agree that Terran is the most versatile and interesting race, but i would be really disappointed if the other races got new units while Terran didn't.
I would like to see terran receive another mech unit! Preferably a unit that could make mech viable against Protoss, (Not just with 1-base All-ins) A middle ground unit that would be a little slower than a hellion and less effective to killing workers but instead more effective versus the protoss ground army. (Yes i know this sounds like a vulture xd.)
Or it sounds like a Goliath xd Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:54 Condor Hero wrote:On August 03 2011 06:26 Alpino wrote:On August 02 2011 14:12 windsupernova wrote:On August 02 2011 14:03 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I really hope they add something cool to the terran. They can't just leave us with nothing new and expect us to buy an expansion. Well, I have the feeling that they will at least add new upgrades and abilities. I don´t think T is as good as they say, its pretty complete but its not like T doesn´t have niches that need to be filled. Me too. If Terran was so good we would have more top tiers foreign terrans(like we have Toss and Zergs). Instead we have a bunch korean terrans who have such good army control they can get away with stuff other players can't. thats because foreign players suck in general. the top players are korean, so we should look at them as examples. korean terrans are dominating. (youre basically implying that terran isnt a good race but good players just pick terran which is bullshit anways) you cant just segment the players and say if terran is so damn good then the best players in bronze, gold, plat, diamond, masters should all be terran. doesnt work like that Actually what he's trying to say is that Terran isn't too strong as evidenced by the lack of foreigner Terran dominance. Comparing foreigners to foreigners we seem to have more top tier Protoss (Naniwa, Huk, White-Ra, etc) if anything and then maybe Zerg (Idra, Ret, Dimaga, etc). He's not drawing any conclusions other than that you cannot make any similar conclusions about Terrans being strong by looking at the Korean scene.
What? That just means that foreign terrans aren't good enough. The only one I would say particularly stands out is Thorzain, who did beat Naniwa and IdrA, not sure if he's beat Ret, and has taken games off MC (though a lot from 1-1-1 all-in). Almost all of the "top tier foreigner" players you mentioned faced Korean terrans and lost. Terrans dominate the GSL. Nestea has said that Losira's terran is better than his zerg (though could just be Nestea trolling) and who knows about Nestea's level of terran.
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On August 03 2011 08:02 Essem wrote:
What makes me wonder about Lurkers is that they fire like a hellion (straight line in front of them).
In SC2 the units creates a concave quickly and that will reduce the effectiveness by alot.
The reason that works with hellions is that they are fast and can position themselves in angles so that the fire line hits multiple targets.
You can also look at the collosus and see why they are so good. they have the swoop attack that is designed to hit multiple target in a concave.
It would be effective still. The old lurker didn't have to "line em up" in order to be effective. If youre going for maximum DPS then sure but even in the terribad pathing that is BW good players would micro so that their units were not lined up and the lurker still did pretty damn well.
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not that i mind another harassment unit for toss, when i play toss i have plenty of them x3. When i play against toss there are non, so its pretty perfect for me.
And about the lurker discussion, if they are anything like bw they would be horrible in every matchup, and people would keep using banelings. (vs toss well just like in bw, vs terran few marauders would roflstomp them receiving lil damage themself).
I love the new burrow some banelings while in the middle of the fight, thats so scary, as the opponent doesn't really notice it at that time and then when they run back to get the mutas boom.
And marines rofled lurkers in bw already when you used a bit of positioning (well lurkers could massaker marines more easy then the other way round hehe). But lurkers were a perfect combo with dark swarm.
But spidermines lurkers reavers would be total waste in sc2 if they would work anyway close to the bw conterpart. I am just curious what they will add and really hope they don't let anything die X.X.
at the end we have a WoL and HotS community and both say their multiplayer units are more balanced haha. (though blizzard will probably force some switching :3)
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8751 Posts
I'll love Browder if he gives me a unit that can "raid" haha =]
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Foreigner Terrans not dominating simply means that they're far inferior to their Korean counterparts, who are indeed dominating (17 in Code S so far). The "Terran isn't that strong because foreigner terrans aren't that good" argument is terrible. Look at how strong a race is at the very top levels of play, which means the Korean level, not the foreigner level.
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EPT
