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On July 28 2011 03:34 DeaTH.1914 wrote:
Did you even watch the show? Alex' tone was far more relaxed than that of Milkis and he approached the subject in a far more calm manner. There was no attack, he even apologized several times encase Milkis took what he was saying the wrong way..
Alex would make a perfect politician. Constantly attacking the other person while trying to disguise his attacks as an excuse (hint: just because one starts their sentence with "I don't want to accuse Milkis", does not mean they are not accusing Milkis if the 2nd part of the sentence sounds very accusatory).
He also kept constantly interrupting Milkis, to prevent him from talking, and make him more frustrated, which sounded like a pretty low move, since Alex is far better at the art of public speaking than Milkis, and he clearly abused that to keep talking, and not let Milkis express himself.
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On July 28 2011 12:18 Belial88 wrote:
^ Milkis put out a story, translated or not, without the full facts. (...)
Journalists know to put out stories when all the information is out.
Except that he did not "put out a story", and is not a journalist.
The story was already out, written by someone else, published on a publicly accessible website.
All he did was translate it.
Are you implying that if I find an article of interest on a korean site, go to google translate, than copy paste it in an English forum, I'm suddenly a journalist? >.>
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^ I never said anything saying that I expect Milkis to hold himself with integrity, despite not being a journalist.
I simply said Milkis put out a bias article, which was clear was lacking all the facts, without mentioning that there may be other sides to the story, and then he got heat for it - which should be expected. I feel no sympathy towards Milkis for being in the line of fire for what he did.
Do I think Milkis shouldn't have translated, or this or that or a million other things? No. I'm simply saying if you can't stand the heat...
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On July 29 2011 10:23 Railin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 03:34 DeaTH.1914 wrote:
Did you even watch the show? Alex' tone was far more relaxed than that of Milkis and he approached the subject in a far more calm manner. There was no attack, he even apologized several times encase Milkis took what he was saying the wrong way.. Alex would make a perfect politician. Constantly attacking the other person while trying to disguise his attacks as an excuse (hint: just because one starts their sentence with "I don't want to accuse Milkis", does not mean they are not accusing Milkis if the 2nd part of the sentence sounds very accusatory). He also kept constantly interrupting Milkis, to prevent him from talking, and make him more frustrated, which sounded like a pretty low move, since Alex is far better at the art of public speaking than Milkis, and he clearly abused that to keep talking, and not let Milkis express himself.
I don't want to be mean to alex but I think you are quite right about him...
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On July 29 2011 10:25 Railin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 12:18 Belial88 wrote:
^ Milkis put out a story, translated or not, without the full facts. (...)
Journalists know to put out stories when all the information is out. Except that he did not "put out a story", and is not a journalist. The story was already out, written by someone else, published on a publicly accessible website. All he did was translate it. Are you implying that if I find an article of interest on a korean site, go to google translate, than copy paste it in an English forum, I'm suddenly a journalist? >.>
No, you with your 53 posts would not be a journalist. And not me with my 200-ish posts either.
But any respected member of TL.net, be it Milkis, TDL, Nony, you name it, will have more weight to their post than everybody else. You know, that's the whole idea of TL isn't it? Otherwise, this forum would not be any better than 4chan.
Journalism is not a matter of profession or wage, but reach and impact. If anything, this is what "web 2.0" has taught us. Even translating aside, "Oh but I'm just reposting" does not release you from every personal responsibility. A large majority of international press is run by news agencies a la AP, Reuters. Does that mean that all the newspapers that cite them don't have to double-check their stories? "Oh, but I didn't write that. Go blame AP"
See, Milkis is not to blame. Not because he is "only a translator", but because he is the only one doing it and the responsibility of his position is going far beyond what a single person can possibly do. Milkis is not to blame, because of what would be optimal is something he can't do all on his own. The things to learn from all this is that:
1) There is legitimate interest in KR news
2) There is limited man-power to make it accessible for all of us
3) In order to improve overall quality and legitimacy, it would be desirable not to burden a single person with all the work
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^ When was he blamed? He simply got heat for what he did, which was to be expected. It's like yellow journalism, or tabloids, or knee jerk reactions. He put something out, without the full context behind it, to convey a situation that was much more dramatic than what really existed. Of course he's going to get flack for it, just like any other person would have if they did it, regardless of how insignificant Milkis is. He is being held responsible for what he did, something irresponsible, it doesn't matter if he is a journalist or whatever or not, because what he did impacts the community. It's not about Milkis.
The blame lies with the TSL Coach, and everyone knows that already.
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Congrats to EG for signing an awesome player.
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On July 30 2011 06:03 Belial88 wrote:
He put something out
For the millionth time, he did not put anything out. It was already out.
Your argument against Milkis is based on a language barrier. Milkis' only role is to negate that language barrier and make already available and released articles readable for everyone.
He did not do anything irresponsible.
A lot of people rely on TL to bring all the news from the Korean scene, in its original form. TL isn't here to do damage control for EG or to help them do damage control, that very idea is awfully repulsive. The entire mess is a consequence (and a well deserved one) of the choices EG made in the matter and who they decided to talk to and when.
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On July 26 2011 09:12 Dubzex wrote:
You are still an asshole for what you said to Milkis.
Agreed. Not an EG fan...
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On July 30 2011 06:03 Belial88 wrote:
The blame lies with the TSL Coach, and everyone knows that already.
This comment is out of curiosity only because i haven't gotten the complete picture, but who other than the involved parties has blamed the TSL coach?
I'm not bothered much by the contract thing because TSL should have given puma one, but the conversation with the tsl coach could have gone a whole lot different
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Since this is the internet I'll make my points very clear.
I think you should have approached TSL first. Doesn't matter if you and PuMa thought it was best to let him approach TSL first. It's standard practice that the teams talk to each other, not letting the players do the work. You took a shot with PuMa and you missed.
However, I didn't think it was that big of a deal in this particular case.
What really bothers me is the way you are handling the situation. You apologize to Mr Lee but then go on saying that you didn't do anything wrong and it's Mr Lee's fault. The apology is not a sincere apology only made to appease the fans and sponsor.
I really don't like this kind of behavior. Since I can't never really know you or EG, I can only judge EG by their public actions. This goes for all companies. Which is why I judge companies extra hard when it comes to crisis management. Your crisis management tells me that you still don't really think you did anything wrong. I think did you though. Which is a conflict of philosophies.
Also, your constant "I don't want to.. but" and then you still do it is also a huge thorn in my eye. It doesn't matter if for example say "I don't want to kill you" but then you go ahead and do it anyway. You are just rubbing it. If you don't realize this, then I'm glad that this happened so I can stop supporting EG.
Anything you say beyond this point will just be useless. Obviously, you are willing to say want we want to hear but without really meaning it so I can't take anything you say anymore to heart.
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Congrats to Puma and EG. EG please be more professional next time.
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On July 30 2011 21:47 uGoatt wrote:
Congrats to Puma and EG. EG please be more professional next time.
But they were professional. They had to choose between accepting Puma's request to let him tell the TSL manager or neglecting Puma's will (the player who they want on there Team) and tell coach Lee them self. It was a lose-lose situation.
But overall they handled it pretty well, they just have to realise how sensitive and drama-seeking this community is. EG fighting!!
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It's kind of hilarious the little stuff this community gets worked up over. Rather than being excited that there's a top KOREAN player being sponsored by a top NORTH AMERICAN team, people are caught up in nonsensical, and uninformed arguments about their business practices. I just can't fathom how people don't understand the gravity of the situation. We, the foreigner scene, are supporting Korean players. How awesome is that? Yet, people here only care to squabble about whether or not they talked to management first.
This community can be so supportive(see TLO's marathon) but so self-destructive at the same time.
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On July 30 2011 21:47 uGoatt wrote:
Congrats to Puma and EG. EG please be more professional next time.
-.- This is the TL;DR of 70+ pages of thread. Why can't we leave it a that?
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I think you should have approached TSL first. Doesn't matter if you and PuMa thought it was best to let him approach TSL first. It's standard practice that the teams talk to each other, not letting the players do the work. You took a shot with PuMa and you missed.
This is just ridiculous. EG wanted a star player, why in the world would they need to talk to the coach, when it's the player who's important, who's working hard. It's like I'm an amazing employee, but hold on, talk to my boss at my current shitty dead-end job who pays me nothing, so you can offer him a share of the money that should be mine.
Like that's just so ridiculous. EG wanted him, why in the world would they do something that may prevent that, or have to appease someone who isn't even this player. The fact they gave all the money and glory to Puma, not to his coach who obvouisly didn't find it fitting to pay him anything or contract him, is a good thing.
Now obviously, there are customs and whatnot in Korea to make sure the teams don't have to pay the non-star players that much, I mean rules meant to protect the players from the wild jungle of having to find someone who will pay them more than someone else, but these customs are moot if rules do not support them. If TSL had paid Puma or had contracted him, then it would be agreeable to follow these customs. But as it stands, it seems these 'customs' are just to make sure these teams can be cheap to their players, and that's just f*cking ridiculous. Now obviously, a lot of Koreans find offense in going to a player first, so I think what EG did was perfect - attract the player, and make sure the coach is in the loop.
Maybe if the coach showed just a little bit of support for Puma going to NASL, and gone with him, this wouldn't have happened. Maybe if he had contracted Puma and taken care of talent that was there (ofc this is impossible to know in advance if someone will win the NASL, but that's why these things happen! it's a gamble), this wouldn't have happened. And maybe the coach shouldn't be so god damn upset that EG - gasp - contacted the person they wanted to hire so they could offer HIM the money, instead of someone who really has no control over Puma, so that they have to pay him a share of Puma's money. It's not that ridiculous, it's not like EG signed Puma before the Coach even knew what was going on. EG expressed interest, and told the guy "hey go talk to your coach". Pretty fucking reasonable.
I can appreciate EG's ambition, as well as Puma wanting to make it out for himself.
It's kind of hilarious the little stuff this community gets worked up over. Rather than being excited that there's a top KOREAN player being sponsored by a top NORTH AMERICAN team, people are caught up in nonsensical, and uninformed arguments about their business practices. I just can't fathom how people don't understand the gravity of the situation. We, the foreigner scene, are supporting Korean players. How awesome is that? Yet, people here only care to squabble about whether or not they talked to management first.
Agreed. Only good things happened and the TSL is mad that the the player they treated poorly suddenly showed his true potential is leaving them after they refused to recognize him at all, simply because he was a training partner.
For the millionth time, he did not put anything out. It was already out.
Your argument against Milkis is based on a language barrier. Milkis' only role is to negate that language barrier and make already available and released articles readable for everyone.
He released news to many people who did not have access to it before. Acting like he did nothing is just absolutely absurd. You act like everyone already knew about his article - if it was 'already out' for the Non-Korean speaking community, why did he even bother posting it at all?
While I disagree with a lot of what Milkis said on WOC and his viewpoints on the matter, it doesn't really matter. All I'm saying is that he got heat for what he did, and that should've been expected. Doesn't matter how you do it, but when you put something out that reflects negatively on an organization only because it lacks a complete picture, then you're going to get deserved heat for it. The WOC interview, and I listened to it well, but of course maybe I missed something, pretty sure I didn't, seemed pretty straightforward, I didn't find Alex particularly 'bashing' on Milkis besides criticizing what he was doing in a respectful manner.
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Pretty sick pickup tbh. Puma is sick.
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On July 26 2011 09:32 dwillow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2011 09:30 PikaXchU wrote:On July 26 2011 09:28 Fionn wrote:On July 26 2011 09:26 PikaXchU wrote:
When in doubt always blast the messenger, and then pretend nothing happens...
I believe an apology for Milkis is in order here.. Milkis wasn't even the messenger. PlayXP was the messenger. Milkis was just translating what the messenger said. If anything, EG should be pissed at PlayXP for putting up the article before Puma was officially signed. Milkis did nothing wrong. If he didn't translate the article, someone else would have. Without Milkis, we wouldn't even have known what had happened on PlayXP, so he was indirectly the messenger when he translated. This is also more or less the reason why he was bashed, because he brought this up to TL. Isn´t the Milkis here on TL for that, to bring us the news from korea? Isn´t that a job and meaning of journalist and translator?
Very well stated.
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I thought Milkis was from Singapore...
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EPT
