EPTEG signs PuMa, responds to criticism - Page 76
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sad312
Canada56 Posts
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JinRohHANZO
France40 Posts
On July 28 2011 05:41 sad312 wrote: I didn't really care what happened with puma cause SC is now a sport and therefore also a business. Players CAN be bought...Its just normal for this to occur anyways i always liked EG and still will. EG fightin! I'm as glad as you're that SC2 is now a sport and a real business. Players can be bought... no doubt about this. But, if you want SC2 to be a professional sport and a respected business, you've to act like a professional. Here, I really don't think EG did. If you want a player, that's ok but you talk to the team management first, that's the only way of doing it, like in any other professional sport. Contract or no contract, PuMa was a member of the TSL team. I was quite neutral on EG : Idra is entertaining to watch (his rage as well), Incontrol is a funny guy, I like Demuslim and I will probably never change my mind about that. Now, telling you I'll have in the future the same respect for the EG leaders I had before would be a lie. | ||
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Shyft
Canada37 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
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SolidusR
United States217 Posts
On the other hand, Coach Lee's going to the press immediately following a friendly conversation seems catty and immature. He presents himself as a coach having a temper tantrum due to the fact that all his best players are leaving the team in droves. He could have expressed himself in a manner was not consistent with teenage gossip, and handled things professionally in a private setting with EG, at least at first. After all, PuMa is free to make his own decisions and he might have made this decision anyway if EG had broadly asked for applications from Korean pro-gamers. It's silly to be protective of a player who doesn't even want to be associated with your team any longer. I think this was mishandled on both sides, and overall I'm quite unimpressed with both teams. Sorry EG, but you guys really need to act more professionally because you are in the spotlight for NA progaming. It gives a bad name to all of us. I don't really care about what TSL, a seemingly failing team (for the time being) in Korea, does in reaction to losing their best players. I am concerned with how EG, the premier NA team, contracts their new players. It should be conducted under absolutely no less than the highest standards of professionalism and cultural respect. I am disappoint. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On July 28 2011 05:39 Djzapz wrote:Translating something is never slander. Don't be ridiculous. Milkis didn't overreact either. He's one guy who was completely disrespected by the representative of a corporation. He deserves an apology - not a fake one like the OP of this thread. Hate to quote myself on this, but please consider that it may not have been about Milkis as person: + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2011 15:11 rotegirte wrote: Please bear with me and read through all of it: Taken from the TL.net translator recruiting announcement: Living in the post Web 2.0 era, where traditional media show clear signs of struggle and the lines between professionals and the hive-mind blurs, there comes a very specific set of problems with that shift. Part of TL.net own success is being written down in its commandments: 6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS. There is a legitimate reason why some members should and will be heard over others. And in this instance, it is safe to assume that Milkis is regarded as a reliable and respected gateway for the non-koreans of us. I doubt anyone could argue that he ranks high in both reach and impact, especially due to the fact that most of his information is not accessible to a majority otherwise. Taking the "just a" argument to the extreme, you could label translators in politics the same. During the cold war, at various moments where our world was on the verge of nuclear destruction, for example the cuba crisis as an example of utmost brisance. There is a whole canon of literature examining the historical importance of those "translators" that worked on both sides at that time, where a single nuance of words could have trailed severe repercussions. Consequently, the "just a" argument has to acknowledge the importance of the person to the process. Such as stem-cell and genetic research can not fall back to "just a scientist". Going back to the issue at hand, it sure is still an mostly not undestood phenomenon. The internet. Companies and research have been spending a whole lot of money and effort to investigate it and seem as clueless as ever. Wikipedia, Twitter, Wikileaks, Reddit, Facebook, all these are prominent approaches to utilize the masses and filtering informational noise. TL.net is also a child of this thought. While it has been growing organically, one has to wonder how it would develop on a larger scale. Say the number of users increases ten-fold. Will Milkis be still "just a translator"? Or might we want to consider employing a proper correspondant. I do understand that the staff is limited, and the majority is volunteering. By all means, they do a great job and are to be praised. Milkis being a translator and having to substitute for parts of the job of an editor at the same time is 100% not his fault. It is however suboptimal to say the least. In press, you won't find pure translators that don't work under editorial supervision. Milkis signed up for being a translator only and is only accountable for that, yet TL.net may already have reached a point where a more extensive position is desirable. That said, AG was wrong by criticising Milkis' work personally. His concern about the position Milkis is currently "forced" to fill remains valid. It is to be understood that fundamentally every organization themself is responsible for their public relations. But in order to retain a healthy information/noise ratio one might consider lending the TL.net a hand in their day-to-day work. Instead of only cheering for Milkis from the sideways we should encourage more people to help him, or even pick up on the work ourselves. This would lead to a better TL.net quality and legitimacy overall. So the attack on Milkis himself was absolutely inappropiate, but there is more to the general problem than you make it to be. | ||
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Grimsong
United States252 Posts
On July 28 2011 05:32 moregamethanSEGA wrote: 2) when you trade for a player in another sport, you do so through the team GM, not the player. I am unsure if what you were trying to explain was that he was a free agent? (otherwise, its called 'Tampering'). 3) Honestly, this fiasco is all because there is no players association or union and therefore these deals can tend to look shady (and rightly so). Even IF PuMa isn't 'contracted', he is still assuming some benefits of being a korean pro team, and his lack of a contractual agreement could be based on the fact that he isn't old enough to be contracted? I dont know this for sure, but I certainly could imagine this being the case. (where are the parents in this btw?) 1) Puma was not under a contract, therefore you can't say WELL IN THE NFL THEY GO THROUGH THE TEAMS FOR TRADES. Apples to oranges. But amuse me and tell me what professional team in any other sport doesn't sign their players to a contract. 2) This fiasco is NOT because there is no players association or union. It's NOT because Puma isn't "old enough" to be on a contract in Korea. It's NOT because Puma had ANY type of "contractual" agreement whether verbal, written, spray painted, or tattooed. The only reason there was even any WINDOW of opportunity for these events to have taken place is because TSL mis-managed their "star" player (after their other 3 "star" players left, common theme perhaps?). It's because people want to act as if the community, and the professional SC2 scene, is nothing but a group of six year olds playing with their Hot Wheels out on the playground. It's much more sophisticated than that. Act as if. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Isn't that what teams and businesses are supposed to do? Wouldn't that be a great boon to foreign e-sports? SC is a cutthroat game, and if teams had rivalries it wouldn't be any different. Having a player like Puma on EG would be a great thing, and they shouldn't have to be shy in trying to get a great player, no matter how they did it. If TSL was such a bad team that they couldn't hold on to him, then that's their fault. And it didn't even go down like that. Why the hell are people so upset about this matter? It's just ridiculous how many people just sit behind a computer, living some kind of fantasy. As for the Milkis situation, the translator put out a story that probably shouldn't have been put out. He received heat for it from someone trying to protect their organization, they're livelihood. That's what happens when you post something that makes EG look bad without proper, full information. Don't shoot the messanger, that's such BS when Milkis was obviously supporting a certain point of view. It was obvious what kind of knee jerk reaction the community would had after reading it, and he did nothing to prevent that from happening. Either he was biased or oblivious, both of which would be expected to receive criticism from EG. Was Alex too harsh? Maybe, but Milkis should have expected that. Bravo for EG. I think they're handling has been superb, much more an explanation than was necessary in the first place. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On July 28 2011 09:38 Belial88 wrote: As for the Milkis situation, the translator put out a story that probably shouldn't have been put out. Rofl don't be ridiculous, how biased can you be? First you say this is how businesses are run and it's perfectly normal for EG to acquire players in less-than-legitimate fashion and then it's unfair for a translator to do his thing? Businesses can keep at it with disingenuous practices, but let's tell journalists that they should only write about what we like for them to write about. "If a brown person says something we dislike, the American people shouldn't hear about it - and we should censor whoever makes articles available." Why EVER keep information from the people? If it was written somewhere, it's fine to make it available. If Alex feels that his little business needs protection, then maybe he should protect it from his own attitude. If he can't handle one translator with respect, maybe he should hire people who will or just tell Geoff to work some magic. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Journalists know to put out stories when all the information is out. Him putting out that article like that is not dissimiliar to all the news organizations crying "MUSLIMS!" with the tragedy in Norway. To continue with your analogy, it's more like "if a brown person is considering saying something without the full facts of the story released yet, he should perhaps hold off" | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:18 Belial88 wrote: ^ Milkis put out a story, translated or not, without the full facts. It was biased, as evident in the reaction that was so different from the reactions in this thread. He should've expected the heat from EG afterwards. Journalists know to put out stories when all the information is out. Him putting out that article like that is not dissimiliar to all the news organizations crying "MUSLIMS!" with the tragedy in Norway. To continue with your analogy, it's more like "if a brown person is considering saying something without the full facts of the story released yet, he should perhaps hold off" Journalists make sure they have all the information is out before they release it to the public, that's why we didn't hear anything about the tsunami and potential nuclear disaster in Japan until days after it happened. Wait no, they report news right after they happen. First person to squeeze out an interesting paper gets a nice raise. Where have you been all these years? When something interesting and relevant is unclear, online news site will still talk about it. They even hire people to write their opinions about it. | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:40 Djzapz wrote: Journalists make sure they have all the information is out before they release it to the public, that's why we didn't hear anything about the tsunami and potential nuclear disaster in Japan until days after it happened. Wait no, they report news right after they happen. First person to squeeze out an interesting paper gets a nice raise. Where have you been all these years? But when they get flak for it, no one expects the people giving them flak to apologize. Its not right per se to attack a journalist, and it happens, and if you are applying the position of a journalist to milkis, you must know that magazines and news get plenty of hate for the stories they report. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:40 Djzapz wrote: Journalists make sure they have all the information is out before they release it to the public, that's why we didn't hear anything about the tsunami and potential nuclear disaster in Japan until days after it happened. Wait no, they report news right after they happen. First person to squeeze out an interesting paper gets a nice raise. Where have you been all these years? When something interesting and relevant is unclear, online news site will still talk about it. They even hire people to write their opinions about it. And that is where journalism differentiates itself from yellow press. It depends in which direction you want to go | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:43 CeriseCherries wrote: But when they get flak for it, no one expects the people giving them flak to apologize. Its not right per se to attack a journalist, and it happens, and if you are applying the position of a journalist to milkis, you must know that magazines and news get plenty of hate for the stories they report. From old ladies who send angry letters to senators about how videogames are too violent. Criticizing bad journalists is reasonable anyway, but you'll never see a good company (a company with a good administration) attacking a person who translated information which they consider to be bad. They'll go after the original writer if they have any sense at all. I've seen way too many idiots yell at the waiter because their food was bad. "I didn't cook this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" | ||
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DeaTH.1914
Canada79 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:18 Belial88 wrote: ^ Milkis put out a story, translated or not, without the full facts. It was biased, as evident in the reaction that was so different from the reactions in this thread. He should've expected the heat from EG afterwards. This is exactly what I mean, I haven't been saying that Milkis himself is biased, however the article itself makes it quite obvious. He should have considered the repercussions before posting or attempt to get more facts. He would be considered a translator if he just translated the article to English and left it in the same thread on PlayXP. However the fact that he is translating the article to English and posting it in a separate forum as news, this makes Milkis a journalist regardless of whether you guys arguing with me like it or not and he is accountable for his own actions. | ||
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Freefall
Bahamas46 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:48 DeaTH.1914 wrote: This is exactly what I mean, I haven't been saying that Milkis himself is biased, however the article itself makes it quite obvious. He should have considered the repercussions before posting or attempt to get more facts. He would be considered a translator if he just translated the article to English and left it in the same thread on PlayXP. However the fact that he is translating the article to English and posting it in a separate forum as news, this makes Milkis a journalist regardless of whether you guys arguing with me like it or not and he is accountable for his own actions. If Milkis didn't translate it and post it on TL, someone else would have. You clearly don't understand how TL works if you think otherwise. | ||
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DeaTH.1914
Canada79 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:40 Djzapz wrote: Journalists make sure they have all the information is out before they release it to the public, that's why we didn't hear anything about the tsunami and potential nuclear disaster in Japan until days after it happened. Wait no, they report news right after they happen. First person to squeeze out an interesting paper gets a nice raise. Where have you been all these years? When something interesting and relevant is unclear, online news site will still talk about it. They even hire people to write their opinions about it. You obviously have no idea how journalism works, the Japan tsunami issue is a terrible example it doesn't involve damage to a persons/businesses reputation. If a journalist ever released a story with false details or little to no factual evidence that reflected poorly on an organization, they could very well be sued for their actions at the very least they would be required to publicly apologize and release another separate article with all of the correct information so the same readers don't hold on to that negative opinion. | ||
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DeaTH.1914
Canada79 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:53 pdd wrote: If Milkis didn't translate it and post it on TL, someone else would have. You clearly don't understand how TL works if you think otherwise. Then this would have been their problem, or they may have acquired more facts. Maybe they wouldn't have included false details. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On July 28 2011 12:57 DeaTH.1914 wrote: Then this would have been their problem, or they may have acquired more facts. Maybe they wouldn't have included false details. The article posted on ThisIsGame and PlayXP had inaccurate details. If you want to get down to the blame, it could have been Coach Lee's fault for giving inaccurate statements. Or TIG/PlayXP's fault for not fact checking. Or EG's fault for not coming out with an earlier statement to deny the rumor. Or TL's own policy and staff for putting it into the community news and editing the post to put Coach Lee's statements in it. Why individually target Milkis or any other translator who might have translated it? Firm fact of the matter was that Milkis just translated what he had from TIG/PlayXP. Nothing more. Everything else was posted on twitter and the edits to include Lee's statements were made by TL staff. | ||
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