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On July 23 2011 17:17 azka wrote:
I'm just gonna say AG/EG were dumb @PR.
While FXO+fOu, Rain to Fnatic, NaDa and MC -> SK, Col + MVP, etc. are being strongly supported by both communities, Puma -> EG it's being a point of controversy and will mess up future deals with other KR players.
The mistakes were EG assuming that Puma's version of his communications with the coach was accurate. (Something I'm sure they'll not make again)
TSL's mistake was for their coach to go whining to the SC2 community.
Since the TSL coach was the first one to make a comment (as Puma isn't actually signed to EG yet), everyone started running with the narrative he kicked off.
That's why it's a big issue. Though SK got a lot of flack for the deal with oGs because they canned their entire normal SC2 team.
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On July 23 2011 19:25 Bayyne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 18:30 thanhbao86 wrote:
Right or wrong, EG has made a bad image in Korea. No teams will want to deal with AG now unless he gives out a shit ton of money.
About Puma case, I know he is good but without the Korean practice environment, could he keep his level. Also, you kinda need practice partners, ladder won't help as much. Korean netizens and gamers kinda hate him now. Fruit Dealer speaks out on his twitter and many others. He will have a hard time finding practice partner. He will be left with EG players and frankly, except Idra i don't think EG players can help him much.
This deal may not be that ideal after all. Puma can go to foreign tournament now but so will many other Koreans (in fact, every big foreign tournaments have at least 5-10 Koreans already).
Whatever has happened, EG is already in a big mess and has displeased many sc fans. Thing may not even get better for them.
Moreover, whatever AG has said about how Korean system does not work has been proved wrong, it works for other teams (Complexity, Dignitas, ...). He lost his credibility and EG created bad reputation in Korea.
I can only see for now this is a bad move of EG (or AG), but maybe Puma will be Flash of SC2 and that would change everything.
EG as a pro gaming team has been involved with too many dramas. No publicity is bad but seriously they need better PR and management teams that could handle issues better. Maybe he created a bad image in KOR, but I'd argue most people with some sense of business acumen outside of KOR would realize he's just doing business. So it's pretty hard to appease two different business mentalities (KOR based on tradition, loyalty, etc; West based essentially on risk/reward investment) and make everyone happy. One side is always going to think EG is shady. But at the end of the day, Puma will get more benefits in the long run if he joins up with EG.
Even with the fans , EG has displeased many (Koreans + foreigners). Also, I would disagree that its hard to appease two different business mentalities as other teams have successfully done so. Puma for sure will get more benefits but will his skills increase. We'll see.
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On July 23 2011 18:24 zeru wrote:
Hilarious how not a single other foreign team fails at negotiating with the teams, coaches, managers themselves. Hopefully this whole EG thing doesnt give anyone else bad reputation in korea except for EG themselves. Would suck for all foreign teams to be thought of as as incompetent as EG are. "this is how business works in ESPORTS!!" no... its not.
Actually, TSL's coach, in his follow up interviews, directly states that SangHo & Clide were both approached and turned down offers from other teams, of which he wasn't aware.
Obviously, EG isn't the only team contacting players. They just happened to contact a player doing very well that was under no contract at all and proceeded like you should. That's the way business, which what Pro SC2 is, works.
What will happen is that the teams, probably by SC2con's push, will put everyone under a minimal contract (not SC:BW style, as most of the players hate KeSPA with a passion). Considering housing & feeding someone costs at least a few hundred bucks (USD) per month, you should have at least a nominal contract, even if it's just verbal expectations.
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On July 23 2011 19:25 Bayyne wrote:
Maybe he created a bad image in KOR, but I'd argue most people with some sense of business acumen outside of KOR would realize he's just doing business. So it's pretty hard to appease two different business mentalities (KOR based on tradition, loyalty, etc; West based essentially on risk/reward investment) and make everyone happy. One side is always going to think EG is shady.
But at the end of the day, Puma will get more benefits in the long run if he joins up with EG.
This isn't as cultural as you would have it - EG has made a lot of anti-fans both here and in Korea. Even if it's "just doing business", that doesn't mean it's acceptable by many people's standards in the foreign Starcraft scene. Doing business is no excuse for being sly and shady and screwing over another team.
As for benefits in the long run, no way. He gets some INSTANT benefits yeah, but in the long run he's finished as a top tier progamer - it's over for him if he has ambitions to be competitive at the highest level of pro SC2. Staying on TSL would have been a much better choice in the long run, or joining another Korean team at least.
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The only PR fail in the whole thing was when the TSL coach got angry he lost a player and started accusing EG of stealing his player. I think contacting the player first is the right thing to do. The player doesn't have a contract with anyone so he has to decide what he wants to do. There is no need to contact the coach.
If they had contacted Lee first he would have just told the he doesn't want them contacting his players after which they would still have to contact Puma anyway. Also Lee has no right to prevent teams from contacting his players as they are not under contract.
EG did the right thing when they contacted the player first and this whole shitstorm only happened because people don't like the transfer and coach Lee got angry. If you want to blame anyone in this deal you would have to blame Puma for choosing to leave TSL, not EG for offering the option to him.
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On July 23 2011 19:43 Marsupian wrote:
The only PR fail in the whole thing was when the TSL coach got angry he lost a player and started accusing EG of stealing his player. I think contacting the player first is the right thing to do. The player doesn't have a contract with anyone so he has to decide what he wants to do. There is no need to contact the coach.
If they had contacted Lee first he would have just told the he doesn't want them contacting his players after which they would still have to contact Puma anyway. Also Lee has no right to prevent teams from contacting his players as they are not under contract.
EG did the right thing when they contacted the player first and this whole shitstorm only happened because people don't like the transfer and coach Lee got angry. If you want to blame anyone in this deal you would have to blame Puma for choosing to leave TSL, not EG for offering the option to him.
No not at all, if coach lee knew puma wanted to go and was also contacted by EG they would for sure have worked something out, especially because he isnt under contract. Coach lee would have looked out for puma in the deal regardless of his dissapointment.
Also almost all of the upper end players on TSL (not new recruits) are under contract so you have no right tosay that Lee has no right to prevent teams fromom contacting his players as THEY are not under contract like TSL doesnt have any players under contract. Read the interview with coach lee, they were going to get puma to go under contract but decided to postpone it as the team went into rebuilding mode. It was unusual that he wasnt under contract but coach lee trusted him.
TSL was one of the first teams that had salaries for their players so they had contracts for most of their players already especially the ones with salaries like FD TESTER (now moved on to ST) sangho and clide (and i think alive as well)
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On July 23 2011 19:40 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 19:25 Bayyne wrote:
Maybe he created a bad image in KOR, but I'd argue most people with some sense of business acumen outside of KOR would realize he's just doing business. So it's pretty hard to appease two different business mentalities (KOR based on tradition, loyalty, etc; West based essentially on risk/reward investment) and make everyone happy. One side is always going to think EG is shady.
But at the end of the day, Puma will get more benefits in the long run if he joins up with EG. This isn't as cultural as you would have it - EG has made a lot of anti-fans both here and in Korea. Even if it's "just doing business", that doesn't mean it's acceptable by many people's standards in the foreign Starcraft scene. Doing business is no excuse for being sly and shady and screwing over another team. As for benefits in the long run, no way. He gets some INSTANT benefits yeah, but in the long run he's finished as a top tier progamer - it's over for him if he has ambitions to be competitive at the highest level of pro SC2. Staying on TSL would have been a much better choice in the long run, or joining another Korean team at least.
Do you have a crystal ball or something? There is is no freaking way you can say where Puma will be skill-wise in 3-4 years. You make is sound like EG and Puma have committed murder or something...
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On July 23 2011 19:40 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 19:25 Bayyne wrote:
Maybe he created a bad image in KOR, but I'd argue most people with some sense of business acumen outside of KOR would realize he's just doing business. So it's pretty hard to appease two different business mentalities (KOR based on tradition, loyalty, etc; West based essentially on risk/reward investment) and make everyone happy. One side is always going to think EG is shady.
But at the end of the day, Puma will get more benefits in the long run if he joins up with EG. This isn't as cultural as you would have it - EG has made a lot of anti-fans both here and in Korea. Even if it's "just doing business", that doesn't mean it's acceptable by many people's standards in the foreign Starcraft scene. Doing business is no excuse for being sly and shady and screwing over another team. As for benefits in the long run, no way. He gets some INSTANT benefits yeah, but in the long run he's finished as a top tier progamer - it's over for him if he has ambitions to be competitive at the highest level of pro SC2. Staying on TSL would have been a much better choice in the long run, or joining another Korean team at least.
Long run benefits I'm talking about are way more exposure to the western esports scene, potentially more money for the guy.
As far as his play, if he keeps up his work/practice ethic, why is he going to decline?
And I wouldn't call what EG did shady, as do many people in this thread.
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On July 23 2011 14:13 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 11:04 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On July 23 2011 10:36 Angelbelow wrote:On July 23 2011 10:05 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:49 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:41 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:39 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:32 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 09:28 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:21 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:
[quote]
I believe he broad up an old point (This was nothing new) on a situation that may be an example on the line between journalism and expressing your opinion to a community (which is not the same thing). I think thats all it is.
So shortly, no you can tell whatever you want, since you clearly fall into the ladder option. I think he's intelligent enough to be polite while accusing (intimidating?) Milkis. But that's just me telling things. Ok, so if I understand you correctly. Being polite and careful while stating your/company opinion is bad, but being blunt and careless is ok? Or is it a sign of Intelligence, therefore you are calling the original poster less intelligent? I am a bit confused. I don't see where I'm calling Milkis less intelligent. He was intelligent enough to understand what Alex was trying to do and stop him there. But basically Alex said: "you are responsible but I'm not blaming you." Not a big deal since he didn't got any effect on Milkis future posts/tweets. I think he also wanted to point out that by being a simple OP, you could have major implications for the parties involved based on the amount of information you include at the time of your post. Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis. Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way. I would stop, if fans are still arguing about this they will never stop. Theres a good chance that they hated EG from the beginning and will continue to throw eggs at them no matter what. So you should just save your time =p Milkis translated information that was ultimately incorrect. To blame EG for not being quick enough to correct this is pretty unfair but these kids wont listen. It is fair in the context of EG blaming Milkis for not getting a statement from them. Milkis tried. EG refused (Sir Scoots had more important things to do). Their delayed response is their fault. What information was incorrect? To be fair neither articles said anything about him being signed, just that puma left TSL so that he could join EG. Neither articles said anything about a contract, just that EG made an offer which is absolutely true 
Well it said that EG claimed that Puma approached them first, which was incorrect.
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I think that this is an overreaction from the TSL side. I listened to Weapon of Choice where Alex Garfield talked about how he/EG went about talking to PuMa about signing him and it did not seem malicious or bad practice. I can understand that Coach Lee is upset that the player he has worked with for so long is leaving but its how things work in the world and this is a great thing for PuMa.
I hope that EG and PuMa go through with the signing deal and I look forward to hearing the specifics about it.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On July 24 2011 00:20 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 14:13 Milkis wrote:On July 23 2011 11:04 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On July 23 2011 10:36 Angelbelow wrote:On July 23 2011 10:05 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:49 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:41 NightAngel wrote:On July 23 2011 09:39 azka wrote:On July 23 2011 09:32 [NSL]BansheeHero wrote:On July 23 2011 09:28 azka wrote:
[quote]
I think he's intelligent enough to be polite while accusing (intimidating?) Milkis.
But that's just me telling things. Ok, so if I understand you correctly. Being polite and careful while stating your/company opinion is bad, but being blunt and careless is ok? Or is it a sign of Intelligence, therefore you are calling the original poster less intelligent? I am a bit confused. I don't see where I'm calling Milkis less intelligent. He was intelligent enough to understand what Alex was trying to do and stop him there. But basically Alex said: "you are responsible but I'm not blaming you." Not a big deal since he didn't got any effect on Milkis future posts/tweets. I think he also wanted to point out that by being a simple OP, you could have major implications for the parties involved based on the amount of information you include at the time of your post. Yes, but why he would point that, when he lacked to contact the OP via PM to make a "quote"? Look at Major's SEA incident post, where all parts tried to participate. You cannot blame Milkis for the lack of information from EG. That's EG's fault, not Milkis. Or maybe it is Coach Lee's fault for making a ranting Twitter post in a state of anger? Who knows. What I do know is that I feel like several parties involved could have gone about this in a better way. I would stop, if fans are still arguing about this they will never stop. Theres a good chance that they hated EG from the beginning and will continue to throw eggs at them no matter what. So you should just save your time =p Milkis translated information that was ultimately incorrect. To blame EG for not being quick enough to correct this is pretty unfair but these kids wont listen. It is fair in the context of EG blaming Milkis for not getting a statement from them. Milkis tried. EG refused (Sir Scoots had more important things to do). Their delayed response is their fault. What information was incorrect? To be fair neither articles said anything about him being signed, just that puma left TSL so that he could join EG. Neither articles said anything about a contract, just that EG made an offer which is absolutely true Well it said that EG claimed that Puma approached them first, which was incorrect.
I guess to them, the owner of the team handing out business cards to the players doesn't count as an 'approach'.
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I feel bad for all parties in the whole matter. The whole thing makes EG and Puma look bad in my opinion. The fact that EG went behind the back of TSL's management and offered Puma a position on their roster is completely unprofessional. Puma was not only a player for TSL he is a rising star and a part of the TSL's image.
For Puma to not have a sit down with the management of TSL shows his lack of maturity and what he is truely loyal to. And that is money. Sure he will do well in the foreign scene, but he will lose a lot of support and respect from his KR counterparts and the KR community. His image isn't permanently damaged. He has to succeed, and demonstrate professionalism in the business aspect of SC:II
I think that the whole ordeal will cause KR teams to start using contracts for their players. The problem with that is the game is still very young and many things can change. Players will come and go which is why the whole No Contract idea has worked up until this point. No team wants to take a big risk in forming a contract with a player that could be a one hit wonder. Unfortunately this turn of events will likely cause them to crush that idea and start with contracts.
It sucks that its happening, but it was going to have to happen eventually. I just hope that they aren't as strict as KeSPA with SCBW
my quick 2cents
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Longtime lurker first time poster. Don't really understand why anyone is mad about this. EG took advantage of poor business practices by Puma's old team. Not having contracts with employees you want to make sure you keep is simply incompetent, regardless of what you think they owe you. Its not unethical to try and put someone else out of business for your own good. This is how global capitalism works. The current dominating economic worldview is that if you have a way to make your company better, its unethical NOT to do it. I'm not saying this worldview is good, but being surprised about something like this is a bit naiive. As far as Puma seeming immature because of his change of employer, I couldn't help but think that the opposite is true. A young man realizing that this world is selfish, that one must get what he can, when he can, is a realization that most people take till their 30s or 40s to understand. He is ahead of the curve to realize that he needs to do whats he thinks is best for himself, not his current employer.
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sigh. you specifically stated there would be a difference between the US and EU. come, let me quote your post twice to help you understand your own words:
Well in the UK for example all of the top orgs know each other as they attend LANs regular so there is no team poaching by the management (as they are friends). Teams/players approach orgs if they are interested and when your in a team its down to the team to recruit / kick. So generally players will speak with players about joining their teams or if an org has an open spot then teams speak to the orgs about filling it.
Also as the orgs all know each other they tend to pass on info to each other about certain teams/players they have had experience with so if your a dickhead or clan hopper etc you tend not to be taken in by most top orgs as they share info. Similarly if an org was to poach a player then that stigma would be carried by the org and more often than not would only attract clan hoppers. Live by the sword die by the sword kinda style..
Glad i could clear that up for your sir! so like i said, its totally different over here
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Well, I know from now on I'll be boycotting EG players when they're on a stream in a tournament. If they get featured in a show like The Day[J] Daily, I will also not watch. And I will surely think twice before the next Weapon of Choice and Live on 3 with djWHEAT.
I know that this means just -1 stream viewer, which is a drop in the ocean, but I recon there are others who think like me.
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On July 24 2011 00:42 speedphlux wrote:
Well, I know from now on I'll be boycotting EG players when they're on a stream in a tournament. If they get featured in a show like The Day[J] Daily, I will also not watch. And I will surely think twice before the next Weapon of Choice and Live on 3 with djWHEAT.
I know that this means just -1 stream viewer, which is a drop in the ocean, but I recon there are others who think like me.
what? I don't even....
whaaaaaaaaaa-?
Sure, you might take TSL's 'side' in this.. (if you can even call it taking sides), and sure its ok if this left you with a little less than love for EG... but you are actively going to try and hurt them because of it? Seriously? that, sir. is hilarious.
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On July 24 2011 00:50 Zeri wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 00:42 speedphlux wrote:
Well, I know from now on I'll be boycotting EG players when they're on a stream in a tournament. If they get featured in a show like The Day[J] Daily, I will also not watch. And I will surely think twice before the next Weapon of Choice and Live on 3 with djWHEAT.
I know that this means just -1 stream viewer, which is a drop in the ocean, but I recon there are others who think like me. what? I don't even.... whaaaaaaaaaa-? Sure, you might take TSL's 'side' in this.. (if you can even call it taking sides), and sure its ok if this left you with a little less than love for EG... but you are actively going to try and hurt them because of it? Seriously? that, sir. is hilarious.
Yeah I find it hilarious to, just like the people who are boycotting anything with sixjaxmajor because of his smurf on SEA lol.
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Well, you guys can laugh all you want, but that's what I'm going to do. It could be "just me" and no one else, but I don't care. I just find their way of "doing business" a bit too shady for my liking.
Real shame coz I like InControl and Idra, but hey - that's life. End of my personal penalty is going to be the day when HotS BETA starts.
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The only unprofessional thing about all this was the PR from TSL, EG, and Puma.
Nothing else was shady as far as I can tell. Anyone who thinks there was shady business on EG's part based on the evidence so far needs to get out of the basement and enter the real world.
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EPT
