I thought we could all give our predictions as to what the new types of units in HotS are likely to be. It's obvious that some races are lacking in many differenct tactical functions - i.e., there are holes to be filled. For example, Protoss and Zerg don't have air caster units or cliff-hoppers. Protoss don't have any medic-type units or any artillery units. Terran has most types of units already, but is also lacking in some areas. No race has a dedicated minelayer unit.
So what type of unit do you think is most likely that we will see for each race in HotS? You can elaborate on your predictions in the comments.
Poll: Protoss units
Ground artillery unit (ex. Reaver) (597)
49%
Air caster unit (ex. Queen) (275)
23%
Healing/recharching medic-type unit (ex. Medic) (109)
9%
Minelayer unit (ex. Vulture) (67)
5%
Cliff-hopping unit (ex. Reaper) (66)
5%
Bigger melee unit (Super-Zealot) (35)
3%
Ground mech unit (ex. Immortal) (34)
3%
Suicide unit (ex. Baneling) (20)
2%
Ground caster unit (ex. HT) (18)
1%
1221 total votes
Your vote: Protoss units
(Vote): Ground artillery unit (ex. Reaver) (Vote): Air caster unit (ex. Queen) (Vote): Minelayer unit (ex. Vulture) (Vote): Bigger melee unit (Super-Zealot) (Vote): Healing/recharching medic-type unit (ex. Medic) (Vote): Cliff-hopping unit (ex. Reaper) (Vote): Ground caster unit (ex. HT) (Vote): Suicide unit (ex. Baneling) (Vote): Ground mech unit (ex. Immortal)
Poll: Zerg units
Fire-while-burrowed ground unit (ex. Lurker) (492)
44%
Ground artillery unit (ex. Siege Tank (252)
22%
Cliff-hopping unit (ex. Reaper) (118)
11%
Air swarm unit (ex. Scourge) (96)
9%
Air caster unit (ex. Raven) (72)
6%
Ground ranged unit (ex. Hydralisk) (41)
4%
Hero-type air unit (ex. Mothership) (21)
2%
Ground melee unit (ex. Zergling) (12)
1%
Massive ground unit (ex. Ultralisk) (9)
1%
Minelayer unit (ex. Vulture) (8)
1%
1121 total votes
Your vote: Zerg units
(Vote): Ground artillery unit (ex. Siege Tank (Vote): Cliff-hopping unit (ex. Reaper) (Vote): Air caster unit (ex. Raven) (Vote): Minelayer unit (ex. Vulture) (Vote): Hero-type air unit (ex. Mothership) (Vote): Ground ranged unit (ex. Hydralisk) (Vote): Massive ground unit (ex. Ultralisk) (Vote): Air swarm unit (ex. Scourge) (Vote): Ground melee unit (ex. Zergling) (Vote): Fire-while-burrowed ground unit (ex. Lurker)
Poll: Terran units
Ground mech unit (ex. Goliath) (319)
33%
Minelayer unit (ex. Vulture) (314)
32%
Ground melee unit (ex. Zealot) (159)
16%
Pure ground caster unit (ex. Defiler) (83)
9%
Air artillery unit (ex. Brood Lord) (26)
3%
Hero-type air unit (ex. Mothership) (22)
2%
Infantry-type unit (ex. Marine) (19)
2%
Suicide unit (ex. Baneling) (17)
2%
Massive ground unit (ex. Thor) (12)
1%
971 total votes
Your vote: Terran units
(Vote): Minelayer unit (ex. Vulture) (Vote): Pure ground caster unit (ex. Defiler) (Vote): Massive ground unit (ex. Thor) (Vote): Ground melee unit (ex. Zealot) (Vote): Hero-type air unit (ex. Mothership) (Vote): Ground mech unit (ex. Goliath) (Vote): Air artillery unit (ex. Brood Lord) (Vote): Infantry-type unit (ex. Marine) (Vote): Suicide unit (ex. Baneling)
Protoss: Air caster I think, it seems like they have everything else covered.
Zerg: Siege unit for sure, the lurker. Zerg needs a unit to gain map control and hinder enemy balls rushing into your base before you have defences up.
Terran: Much like Protoss they have a nice array of units, but I'm thinking either an air caster unit or a melee infantry unit (firebat).
Hopefully we'll overall see some new upgrades as well and more than 1 unit each race.
EDIT: People who vote that Protoss needs a siege unit must be trolling, considering the Colossus.
I do think that there will not only be one more unit for each race - I think there will be at least 2, maybe three. Therefore it's pretty hard to choose 1 option for each race.
For instance, I think that it will be very likely to see: * 1 ground army unit * 1 air unit * 1 spell-based unit.
They will be different for each race - to better fit the profile and to not shift balance too much in the game.
P: i realy am not sure what they are gonna put into, but i hope there gonna do a reaver like untie Z: LURKER!!! T: a better anti air unit besides from marines
Immortals to have effect of knockback when attacking a unit / i.e mini forcefield. Adding upgrade for range in robo bay to have max range of 7 for kiting.
add spectre for ground caster sorry to say but reaver won't come back if colossus isn't removed although I get the feeling they very well might remove colossus since they did say they were removing some units.
Keep in mind that Protoss has 2 massive ground units (Archon, Colossus), and the other races only 1 each. So a new massive ground unit for Terran or Zerg is not unlikely.
P: Not sure, something that will force protoss not to opt for the boring deathball every...single...game Z: Lurker, lurker, lurker. T: Minelayer of some sorts, as long as it doesnt destroy the TvZ matchup which is nothing short of beautiful.
I want them to take out units. Thor, Collosus, Imortal, Roach, Viking, Ultralisk.... just to name a few :p
Predictions though? Zerg: I could see an air caster for Zerg definitely. They kinda already hinted that overseer would go so maybe to replace that.
Terran: They don't need anything but Blizz hinted at reapers being kinda pointless so maybe a better version of that.
Protoss: They need a better dropship than warp prism so maybe again an air caster could come back. Shield Battery could be a huge addition to the game also; allowing Protoss players to more easily defend positions.
On July 02 2011 20:21 Pwnographics wrote: In a perfect world.
Roach is replaced with a lurker-esque unit.
Marauder removed.
Collosi removed.
Immortals to have effect of knockback when attacking a unit / i.e mini forcefield. Adding upgrade for range in robo bay to have max range of 7 for kiting.
And kids this is why we don't let random people balance/develop the game.
I would say there will be a new zerg evolution, probably from a roach Protoss is already heavy on casters, I would say they will have one more robobay unit. Terran will probably have a new mech unit. Or no addition of units but will have some new upgrades to made the current unit used differently.
Zerg : Anti-caster unit Terran : Some new type of unit ( probably harass or anti air focused ) Protoss : ground unit with air splash damage / fast air unit with long range
Zerg: - Better anti air options: perhaps scourge (morphed from zerglings after spire tech would be stylish), or having corruptors and hydras not suck. - Something to control and make intelligent use of terrain, be it a siege unit or something like dark swarm.
Protoss: More harassing options. A cliff jumper maybe. Certainly not another splash damage unit for the death ball.
Terran: I can't think of much terran lacks. Maybe a light support caster like the sentry.
edit:
On July 02 2011 20:23 Frequencyy wrote: I get the feeling they very well might remove colossus since they did say they were removing some units.
Zerg needs something like a lurker, and also corruptors to be replaced or made useful. But I guess they'll just replace the overseer with something "cool" and call it a day.
On July 02 2011 20:21 Pwnographics wrote: In a perfect world.
Roach is replaced with a lurker-esque unit.
Marauder removed.
Collosi removed.
Immortals to have effect of knockback when attacking a unit / i.e mini forcefield. Adding upgrade for range in robo bay to have max range of 7 for kiting.
And kids this is why we don't let random people balance/develop the game.
Enjoy flexing your epeen by stating the blatantly obvious?
On July 02 2011 20:17 TheSilverfox wrote: I do think that there will not only be one more unit for each race - I think there will be at least 2, maybe three. Therefore it's pretty hard to choose 1 option for each race.
For instance, I think that it will be very likely to see: * 1 ground army unit * 1 air unit * 1 spell-based unit.
They will be different for each race - to better fit the profile and to not shift balance too much in the game.
Well, I think we all expect at least 2 new units per race, and probably something similar to what you are saying.
But that's a LOT of new units for a game that already has a very delicate balance. And Blizzard don't like overlapping functions in units, they want every single unit to be both useful and unique and to have this rock-paper-scissor mechanic going.
And if they add NINE (9) new units... I mean OMG, I can't even imagine what units those would be without totally screwing up the balance or creating overlap in the army lineup of a race... I'm actually glad I'm not a Blizzard employee when it comes to the new HotS units.
Zerg will probably get some kind of T3 Unit, perhaps a caster. Terran, a new mech unit seems obvious. Protoss.. not sure, a new robo unit that is good for harassement can be nice. So when you go robo you can chose between immortal+colossus who make your army stronger, or warp prims + harassement unit to play differently.
That would be beyond stupid, Colossus and Templar are more than enough to deal ground AoE damage. Sure, one is a spell caster and the other can be attacked by air, but seriously ... get real. A dedicated ground anti air unit would be nice, or something that utilizes protoss shields, in whatever way that may be.
On July 02 2011 20:10 PraetorianX wrote: Protoss and Zerg don't have air caster units
Mothership, corruptor
On July 02 2011 20:10 PraetorianX wrote: or cliff-hoppers.
Colossus
On July 02 2011 20:10 PraetorianX wrote: Protoss don't have any medic-type units
Shields
On July 02 2011 20:10 PraetorianX wrote: or any artillery units.
Colossus
On July 02 2011 20:10 PraetorianX wrote: Terran has most types of units already, but is also lacking in some areas. No race has a dedicated minelayer unit.
Okay, this is somewhat true, but banelings already kind of fit the bill.
On July 02 2011 20:10 PraetorianX wrote: So what type of unit do you think is most likely that we will see for each race in HotS? You can elaborate on your predictions in the comments.
Voted for: P: Ground artillery Z: Air swarm T: Mine-layer
Zerg definitely needs a siege tank-esque unit capable of controlling space around the map. A dream scenario would simply be if the lurker made a return in HotS. And/or for anti-air I'd appreciate if they made scouting a bit better and hydras faster.
It should be noted that both bw and tft had unit-themes for all races: air-to-air-aoe unit for bw; and a unit that turns the opponents spellcasting into your advantage for tft (and also air units with siege ability for the races that didnt have one so far). Also with minor exceptions one air and one ground and at least one spellcaster for each race.
So I believe we will see at least one air-to-air-aoe-unit, since is there exactly no such unit in sc2, specifically made to destroy light air units like phoenix/mutas. I could see this most likely for zerg, since thors and phoenixes already fill the role of fighting light air.
Following the counter-spellcasting-theme from tft (and medic with restorationin bw) I think we will get a unit with specific spell-countering abilities. Also zerg seems to have a lack here, since ghosts with emp and ht with feedback already have anti-caster-abilities. I can imagine a zerg caster which can give your units a frenzy-buff which will make the units temporarily invulnerable/less vulnerable to spells (maybe other like faster bonuses too). Would feel quite zerg-like to me.
Protoss getting some kind of healing is something I can agree with. Maybe something like a mobile shield battery.
For terran... minelayer is is definitely an option. But this would be too similar to burrowed banelings imho. Id rather say they get some kind of melee unit, since they dont have one so far. Predator from the campaign comes to my mind. Terran seems to have the least gaps to fill atm.
I wish the phoenix got a utility spell that made it a more valuable unit. Something like a "Graviton Slam" ability, where you can Graviton Beam something, then use more energy to slam it into the ground for a small splash area. Of course it should take some significant micro and cost like 50 energy + actual damage spell energy, but it would be cool to see a close range air spell caster like the Phoenix!
Terran will not get the vulture. Or something even halfway similar to the vulture. It would turn TvT into a pure mech 60 minute mech hell like it was in Broodwar... infantry, and other race's units would simply get splattered by any passive splash... imagine what spidermines would have done in BW if there were such low unit collisions as there are in BW... unimaginable carnage... TBH I feel like they'll replace the Marauder with something new.
Zerg... oh zerg... I would be SERIOUSLY pissed off if zerg got a friggin' siege unit... Where did the swarm feel go? Where did the hyper efficient insanely fast units and TOTAL map control go? I wan Zerg to have generally faster ground main battle units... i.e. replace the roach with something that feels zerg-like... BUT to be honest, they'll probably do something with the mutalisk... too much untapped potential in the mutalisk. I could easily imagine a broodlord-esque unit firing swarms of living scourge... almost like interceptors XDD
Protoss needs low-tier harrasment unit, something like Reaper. And some good defensive/space control unit/building for better defending drops or attacks. Protoss army is very immobile and is best when whole, not small pieces. Something that could defend counter-attacks efficiently. Shield battery could work. Also, I want Protoss Banshee :D :D (jk)
As for Terran, they need some unit capable of countering huge siegetank/turret/marine/viking turtle lines in TvT.
It seems like people haven't really seen what Blizzard has said about the issue, and rather prefer to dream about what would make them happy when they play the game (which is entirely different from what would be sensible alterations to the game).
They have addressed whether they would add units and/or remove units. They said they will most likely both add new units and remove existing ones which they do not feel function as well as others.
I am fairly sure they feel like the Colossus works quite well, especially seeing that the unit is used in a lot of Protoss games. However, they may decide to change it to become less powerful or to allow for another unit with a somewhat similar role be integrated into the game, such as the Reaver.
They have mentioned the Lurker, and acknowledge that many want its return, but they feel like its functionality is too similar to that of the Baneling. I still think it is a decent chance that the Lurker will return, but we'll see if it comes with design changes to either it or the Baneling, to diversify the roles of the two. It is quite clear, however, that the Lurker can maintain a positional advantage in ways which the Baneling is only moderately capable of doing.
The Zerg's only real similar artillery unit is of course the Brood Lord, however that is again different from the Lurker in that it is an air unit and does not necessitate means of detection by the opposing player, like the Lurker does. I think perhaps the most interesting factor in introducing the Lurker for Zerg is how this necessitates more emphasis on means of detection for the other players, perhaps especially Protoss. Whether this would be addressed with further balance changes or simply results in an evolving change in play styles is up to Blizzard to consider.
Personally, I think introducing both the Lurker and the Reaver would likely be healthy for the state of the game, and could frequently lead to interesting strategies and scenarios. However, they would have to render the Reaver so that it is not preferable to a Colossus in open-field, large scale battle. One easy way to do this would be to make its weapon cooldown very slow, so that it technically deals quite low DPS, but high damage with each volley. This would still make harassing with Warp Prism and Reaver a good combination, since it should be able to one-shot clumped workers, while retaining a role for the Colossus.
On July 02 2011 20:10 PraetorianX wrote: Protoss and Zerg don't have air caster units
Mothership, corruptor
I wouldn't call curroptor a caster unit. Corruptor is as much caster as thor or battlecruiser are. Voted for: P: Ground artillery (Immortal and colossus kind of fill this purpose. They might need a mid tier air to ground unit more.) Z: Cliff jumper (Zerg need a low tier harass unit similair to the reaper. Let zergs morph into climbing units in the same way they morph to banelings. Can be balanced by adjusting the cost.) T: Mine-layer (Terran got most units they need but mines could spice them up. Give an upgrade to reapers to let them lay mines to get better late game utility.
On July 02 2011 21:04 Dystisis wrote: They have addressed whether they would add units and/or remove units. They said they will most likely both add new units and remove existing ones which they do not feel function as well as others.
Do you have a source for this?
The only thing I've seen from Blizzard regarding this issue, is that they've said they might remove the Overseer because it isn't functioning as intended.
I doubt they will start removing units left and right. That would be very strange.
It's kinds hard to theorycraft at that point, when even Blizzard don't know what they want to do. There's a possibility that they'll remove some units as well, Dustin Browder said it himself.
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
I really hope that the game will have more combining of tech choices, e.g Arbiter is Templar archives and Stargate, Valkyrie is control tower + armory.
I hope there will be a stargate unit that requires the robotics bay, or a stargate unit requiring Dark Shrine. Imagine a flying permanently cloaked unit, that only has spells and can merge with another or something similar.
I hope Zerg gets a hive tech spell caster, or more Hive tech units in general. Lair gives you mutas, corruptors, Hydras, Infestors, as well as the speed roach, speed bane, burrow and all that stuff. Hive gives you ... Ultras (which stink), Broodlords (which are awesome), Cracklings, and yeah. In Broodwar, teching to Hive was a huge part of your game plan as you could use this tech advantage to win, with the timing of your Hive being extremely important. In SC2, Hive is a "well I guess I should Broodlords now".
Of course, there are times when you need to get Broodlords to barely hold a Marine Tank push, but it is not often in your gameplan to map out your hive timings , and defend with the bare minimum. In SC2, you set up a huge economy (at least 4 base), get total map control, max and stay on Lair tech until you feel "you might as well go Hive). Imagine if it was 2 burrowed banelings at perfect locations, with multiple traps in perfect position, using lings to stall and mutas to pick off reinforcements to tech insanely fast to Hive to get a tech advantage. Unfortunately, both hive tech units atm don't give such an advantage, and so the whole thing is less timing based as a whole.
i think they shouldn't remove units at all. i've never heard of an expension that removes content. if they think a unit doesn't work as intented or doesn't fit in anymore with the new units, they can change the unit or nerf it to death. for example, instead of removing the colossus, they can make it weaker, extremly slow, extremly expensive, extremly high supply, extremly high build time, extremly blah, ..., just something ridiculous, so it wont be used all the time. i don't have a problem with units in the game that doesn't get used every game (like the mothership). having the possibility to see this units every 1000 games is better that flat out removing them.
On July 02 2011 21:16 Diks wrote: This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
Someone get Blizzard to hire this guy, I couldn't agree more.
On July 02 2011 21:16 Diks wrote: This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
Someone get Blizzard to hire this guy, I couldn't agree more.
That is just Starcraft 1 but. Blizzard wants to make the games different and not create SC2 as a SC1 clone.
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
i agree with this 100%.... but i add one more thing... :
mothershim replaced with arbitar !!
terran need to (nerf stim pack in HOTS) and remuve THOR add : galioth or something...also add spider mines to hellions....
also one more thing Colloss thors ultras = to many suplay 6 army looks wery small and feals... so extend suplay cup to 250 pop or remuve unites with this much suplay cup ... end...
That is just Starcraft 1 but. Blizzard wants to make the games different and not create SC2 as a SC1 clone.
Yes m8 this isnt SC1 but fact is it SC2 cant be good game as SC1 becous look at suplay SMALL ARMYS in sc2 ..... also unites That are A move (colloss banigngs stim pack marines FF) dont require micro at all almoust.... so game as sc2 cant become good as sc1 becous of that FACTS..
Also DINAMIC pathing... its joke... BALL vs BALL.. WC3 have more strategyc look than SC2... i played wc3 few days ago...
I don't like the idea of bringing back BW units, just because. I highly doubt they will remove the colossus and replace with the reaver, it wouldn't make any sense, they're making a new game not turning it into BW with a graphic overhall.
I think an air caster unit/some other air unit will be in store for Protoss, I like the idea of some kind of combined tech unit. A cliff jumper wouldn't make sense as blink basicly fills that function and colossus can cliffwalk. A shield battery would be interesting (or maybe a return of the dark pylon!)
Zerg absolutely need a hive caster unit, hive units are just kind of meh compared to their lair alternatives.
For Terran I can see some kind of new mech unit, as people have said T doesn't have many gaps to fill so we'll have to wait and see.
All those suggesting Zerg get Lurkers have obviously not thought much into the consequences of this. SC2 is not like BW; units clump together automatically like a tin of sardines. Lurkers still dealt considerable damage in BW granted, but you really needed a good number of them to control space. In SC2, four lurkers could literally chew through an entire Protoss/Terran army with a couple of hits, and from long range to boot (unlike banelings).
Essentially, if Blizzard wants to introduce lurkers, they will need to rework the entire unit-clumping mechanic. As it stands now, Lurkers would literally break the game, and I doubt Blizzard are going to change a mechanic that central for the sake of one unit. Dark Swarm seems a lot more feasible imo.
On July 02 2011 20:26 Klive5ive wrote: I want them to take out units. Thor, Collosus, Imortal, Roach, Viking, Ultralisk.... just to name a few :p
Predictions though? Zerg: I could see an air caster for Zerg definitely. They kinda already hinted that overseer would go so maybe to replace that.
Terran: They don't need anything but Blizz hinted at reapers being kinda pointless so maybe a better version of that.
Protoss: They need a better dropship than warp prism so maybe again an air caster could come back. Shield Battery could be a huge addition to the game also; allowing Protoss players to more easily defend positions.
The warp prism is really good.... Just not enough people use it yet. With speed it cant be caught by anything.
On July 02 2011 21:16 Diks wrote: This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
Someone get Blizzard to hire this guy, I couldn't agree more.
That is just Starcraft 1 but. Blizzard wants to make the games different and not create SC2 as a SC1 clone.
That is not SC1, it's SC2 with a solid expansion that will insure the map get played at the high potential. With the removing of cliff-walking and the addition of ways to lock some ground places (lurkers, reavers, mine, tanks) Suddenly the game become a positional battle where drops and air units can play a huge role.
If this is SC1, then why are there sentries, banelings, queens, mule, warp prisms, banshees, blink-salkers, Thors, ...
On July 02 2011 20:26 Klive5ive wrote: I want them to take out units. Thor, Collosus, Imortal, Roach, Viking, Ultralisk.... just to name a few :p
Predictions though? Zerg: I could see an air caster for Zerg definitely. They kinda already hinted that overseer would go so maybe to replace that.
Terran: They don't need anything but Blizz hinted at reapers being kinda pointless so maybe a better version of that.
Protoss: They need a better dropship than warp prism so maybe again an air caster could come back. Shield Battery could be a huge addition to the game also; allowing Protoss players to more easily defend positions.
The warp prism is really good.... Just not enough people use it yet. With speed it cant be caught by anything.
I agree it seems really good, how come it does not get used that much at the moment though (Though lately seen a small increase in usage). Must be a reason why most top protosses dont use it.
On July 02 2011 20:21 Pwnographics wrote: In a perfect world.
Roach is replaced with a lurker-esque unit.
Marauder removed.
Collosi removed.
Immortals to have effect of knockback when attacking a unit / i.e mini forcefield. Adding upgrade for range in robo bay to have max range of 7 for kiting.
And kids this is why we don't let random people balance/develop the game.
That's pretty much what Blizzard did and anyway I reckon ooni's version of the game would be better. There's nothing more boring than roaches vs marauders.
On July 02 2011 20:26 Klive5ive wrote: I want them to take out units. Thor, Collosus, Imortal, Roach, Viking, Ultralisk.... just to name a few :p
Predictions though? Zerg: I could see an air caster for Zerg definitely. They kinda already hinted that overseer would go so maybe to replace that.
Terran: They don't need anything but Blizz hinted at reapers being kinda pointless so maybe a better version of that.
Protoss: They need a better dropship than warp prism so maybe again an air caster could come back. Shield Battery could be a huge addition to the game also; allowing Protoss players to more easily defend positions.
The warp prism is really good.... Just not enough people use it yet. With speed it cant be caught by anything.
Well yeah its speed is good but without reavers to carry it's kinda boring. Storm drops aren't as good either. I doubt Protoss players would complain if they got an arbiter like unit instead or maybe upgrade it so it can warp in without changing stance (if you move out of range the units cancel though).
o_e. The thought of vultures returning makes my small zerg heart break. If there was one thing I hated in Brood War was landmines. And without overlords being automatic detectors and with my mass zergling infestor play...I see landmines hurting me a lot )=. Though, thats just a personal problem =P.
Zerg- Lurkers, its somewhat obvious since blizzard gives what the fans want Protoss- Reaper mixed with a Reaver would be hilariously OP yet fun XD Terran- Something Blizzard would do for terran is give them some mech thing. May it be a ranged Predator used like a immortal or some sort of golliath but worse due to thors.
On July 02 2011 21:16 Diks wrote: This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
You know that you are just listing BW units right ? This is stupid, in a way that SC2 is a completely new game in every possible way... I am not saying you are wrong, but in my opinion listing things from the previous part of game is not how you make new game... What you want already exist it's called SC2:BW maps. Just enable smart casting, unlimited selection an all that jazz and You have your game
Are people voting for what they want or what they think?
I sure as hell doubt Protoss is going to get another unit to cover the colossus's role and I'm doubtful the Lurker will be added. Of course I'd like to see reavers and lurkers yeah, but why would they add them?
On July 02 2011 21:16 Diks wrote: This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
Someone get Blizzard to hire this guy, I couldn't agree more.
That is just Starcraft 1 but. Blizzard wants to make the games different and not create SC2 as a SC1 clone.
That is not SC1, it's SC2 with a solid expansion that will insure the map get played at the high potential. With the removing of cliff-walking and the addition of ways to lock some ground places (lurkers, reavers, mine, tanks) Suddenly the game become a positional battle where drops and air units can play a huge role.
If this is SC1, then why are there sentries, banelings, queens, mule, warp prisms, banshees, blink-salkers, Thors, ...
You would be surprised how much hate would SC2 get because it would be much more similar to BW. If you want those units, go play BW. Or you can try to be creative and come up with new interesting units... But I know that's the harder way. This whole poll shows how people cannot think of anything new except what has already been made.
On July 02 2011 21:51 Probe1 wrote: Are people voting for what they want or what they think?
I sure as hell doubt Protoss is going to get another unit to cover the colossus's role and I'm doubtful the Lurker will be added. Of course I'd like to see reavers and lurkers yeah, but why would they add them?
Personally, I think for toss the healing type medic unit is most likely. It will be some sort of unit which recharged shields either during combat, or at a much faster rate than normal.
Broodwar units set aside, I think they told in interviews about the overseer being quite useless (except its detection ability of course) so I think they will either change the overseer abilities or completely replace the overseer as we know it.
A really high-tech valkyrie attack upgrade for vikings would be cool. Probably researched at the fusion core or sth. That would encourage more battlecruiser use, too :D. An upgrade that buffs medivac speed slightly would be awesome Zergs need some high-tier unit like the ultralisk, but being better. Probably make ultras have an ability similar to the strike cannon. Also some more mobile units would give zerg that swarm feel ;p I dunno about toss. I guess an unit that requires them to multitask more (a harass unit probably) will make some of the whining children stop.
In Multiplayer I expect only Zerg to get new units, and almost certainly not more than 2 units. One unit should have a new cliff mechanic, perhaps jumping down (which is less useful, but still cute in some situations, especially if the unit is melee). And one unit must be ranged - the current ranged zerg units are a bit retarded compared to the other races; yet, on the other hand, Blizzard tends to design Zerg as the melee race (hence banelings instead of lurkers), so who knows. I expect a new creep enhancement mechanic - perhaps an upgrade to creep tumors that allows them to make the creep poisonous or something like that.
edit: Oh, and definitely new AOE spell. It could be this spell that motivates the creep upgrade. Say, an upgraded creep allows when cast this spell upon it to activate... something: slowing, poisoning, exploding, who knows what.
Zerg needs some kind of unit that can lock down areas. I believe this is what makes zerg feel so lacking compared to terran and protoss. Terran has supply depots, buildings, planetarys, and siege tanks. Protoss has force field. Zerg has nothing to lock down an area.
Remember in the escort mission when there is stuff dropping from the sky and broodling (or was it zergling?) came out of it? It would be nice if zerg had a unit maybe as big as an ultralisk shooting that from its ass. Or just fix the ultralisk, make it walk over other units and make spawn broodling when it dies.
The highest results of the poll are all units from BW that were removed... it's understandable.
- Burrowed/steathed unit actually capable to constantly do damage while invisible (comparable to Banshee/Ghost, DTs). Lurkers would be nice, but Blizzard is not gonna add them, I'm pretty sure. Still, kinda siege unit before Broodlords would be nice because Zerg can be just a-moved so easily while P/T are capable to stop whole Armies with Tanks/Colo/FF/Storms etc.
- Hive tech caster unit with anti caster abilities.
other stuff: reworking of Corrupter/Overseer, Hydras are meh, Ultras should be able to walk "over" other units like Colossus (without cliffwalking ofc) and have slightly reduced size, FG reworking (root removed, over time faded snare added instead 80%->20% since being rooted in place like forever is retarded, etc)
Terran:
- New mech unit (maybe caster ground mech unit?).
- Reapers need something.
Protoss:
- New Robotics Bay unit, Colossus reworked. Like Lurkers, don't think there will be Reavers.
- Even if Dustin B. was ok with Mothership ( because you know, its "cool" and casuals like it..), cheaper flying caster unit would be nice.
Also, unit stacking like it is at the moment sucks somehow, too. Zealots are slower than Stalkers even with upgrade and are always behind them so they dont "tank" anything, just as example. Armies should be more spreaded by a little bit and melee units should be more in front of the army if you move forward.
I think Hydras need some kind of T3 evolution that would make all the gas spent to make them not wasted as soon as the opponent has splash damage. The more I think about it, the more I like the lurker, but I guess there's a reason they didn't include it in the game.
The scourge would change ZvP, IMO in a good way, but would that mean removing corrupters and broodlords? I don't know how they would do that.
P) - 1 Air-Unit that only shoots Air-to-Ground and light-counters units with a high fire-rate (like Hydra or Marine). - 1 Ground-Unit that only shoots Ground-to-Ground and light-counters light units. You could also make a upgrade for the zealots, which increases their damage against light-units (like Pre-Igniter) or reduces Damage of units with a high fire-rate (Since zealots are supposed to "counter" those units, but just don't, as soon as their numbers increase) - 1 Cost-Effective Harass Unit. We don't have a Helion, Baneling, etc.. DTs are more some kind of map-control unit.
Z) - 1 Early-Game Scout that makes it easier to scout your opponent. Maybe some kind of "slow" Reaper would do the trick (Since zerglings are already extremly fast). - 1 Anti-Caster Unit. 1 HT vs. 4 Infestors just isn't fair. Feedback ftw! - 1 Tier-3 Unit that can shoot Air.
T) - 1 "Slow" Air-to-Air Unit that light-counters light units. - Landmine Upgrade for Reaper. - 1 Ability (Tier-3) that let's you cloak your whole army temporary (like 10 Seconds).
On July 02 2011 21:40 Throllax wrote: All those suggesting Zerg get Lurkers have obviously not thought much into the consequences of this. SC2 is not like BW; units clump together automatically like a tin of sardines. Lurkers still dealt considerable damage in BW granted, but you really needed a good number of them to control space. In SC2, four lurkers could literally chew through an entire Protoss/Terran army with a couple of hits, and from long range to boot (unlike banelings).
Essentially, if Blizzard wants to introduce lurkers, they will need to rework the entire unit-clumping mechanic. As it stands now, Lurkers would literally break the game, and I doubt Blizzard are going to change a mechanic that central for the sake of one unit. Dark Swarm seems a lot more feasible imo.
That wasn't the reason lurkers were removed, they were removed because they were too weak at hive tech and overlapped with the baneling. The problem was that Blizzard had this idea that the lurker had to always be 1 tier higher than the hydra. Then I don't know why they can't be upgraded from the roach instead.
In the case you are right, then it just goes to show Blizzards in house testing is probably useless.
For siege units the reaver was removed in favour of the collossus during the alpha, i think toss needs anti air, stalkers aren't that cost effective. The return of the lurker would be great, zerg need to be able to hold a position, they only have one spellcaster too atm. I don't know abt terran, they have everything lol maybe a battle pf that u can liftoff and attack with
lol @ people thinking theyre gonna implement vultures, reavers and lurkers. Terran really doesn't need another unit, theyre pretty complete. Protoss probably needs a harass unit (Reaver a) overlaps with Colossi for AoE and b) doesn't work with the SC2 engine/mechanics without being completly reworked) and Zerg, uh no Idea but I'd honestly rather see a unit than the Lurker, no idea why people are so attached to it.
Do you guys want SC1 with fancy graphics, or.....? People are just writing what they want, not what they think Blizzard will actually add, and so they grab all of the BW units. You know someone earlier said it best. Blizzard would be flamed to high hell if SC2 just became SC1 with Marauders.
I really like the idea of Zerg getting a unit that cliff jumps like the Reaper. That would really add to the swarm quality of the race. Of course it'd have to be higher up in the tech tree. Probably mid-tier, not total tier 3. Other than that, speed up Hydras and Overlords. Put Overlord Detection in place of Overlord Speed. This all seems like a reasonable addition by Blizzard. The balancing shouldn't be thrown off too wildly.
Protoss....I really don't know. A unit to help bring the game away from Colossus would be great. That's really a hard choice when you consider how Blizzard has to look at balance too. I'm sure something should be done with the Warp Prism though.
Terran? They have map control with Siege Tanks and excellent drop play functionality with those medivac/marine combos. Marauders will probably be left, with the Viking. Terran can't suddenly go without air units. Maybe if the Thor became a Goliath type unit that was basically dedicated to anti-air. It could be smaller and faster, so that it's easier to defend drop play by leaving a group of five or so at your base. Yeah, I'm going with that. A smaller, faster Thor that's a dedicated anti-air.
It's very hard to speculate, because there's no limit on how creative Blizzard could be if they wanted to. The community tends to approach the subject of new units in one of two very uncreative ways: either the route of "What units from BW will be returning" or "What units would make SC2 more balanced" (or, similarly, 'fill holes in the races' as the OP put it, or 'what unit does X race need'). The former is probably the better question, because frankly BW has the overall more exciting and strategically interesting suite of units (especially spellcasters), but that's still assuming that Blizzard isn't capable of coming up with entirely new things that are just as good. Or, alternatively, redesigning certain rather bland SC2 units (Colossus cough cough) to be more like their BW counterparts.
But the ladder approach, that of designing units to make the game more balanced rather than to make it more interesting, or designing units to homogenize the races rather than make them more distinct? I seriously hope that's not how Blizzard will go about things, because the result would be something very dull. SC2 is already balanced - what it isn't is as good as it could be. (That people keep saying things like "Terran is already complete" is indicative of just how uncreative HOTS would be if the community had a lot of influence on its development. Terran is complete in the sense that it's almost exactly like BW Terran except for some superficial differences and that it doesn't have Spider Mines? Is "spawn turret" really the pinnacle of spell design? How about some new freaking ideas. Or barring that, just give us Spider Mines and dispense with the 'this is supposed to be a new game' crap. In the case of Terran all I see is BW Lite.)
I'm pretty sure there will be a cliff-hopping unit for Zerg, because it is yet the only race who doesn't have one as Blizzard emphasized it in April's fool post.
My dream is a Hive tech upgrade that give zergling cliff jumping. But that would never happend, protoss and terran could neverbe protected for that kind of thing. x)
This seems more like "What unit from BW would you like to see back in SC2?" pool. Protoss want Reavers back, Zerg want Lurkers and Terran want vultures. Nothing new.
I didn't play BW (I wish I did) so I can't comment on returning BW units. However, I play Zerg and have always envied the Protoss for the Observer. I'm not a big fan of the Changeling and I've pondered the effects of removing it and replacing it with an ability that cloaks the Overseer for a period of time.
Oh and Queens injecting Evo Chambers speeds up the upgrades! Okay, probably not going to happen ^.^
My apologies for deviating from the units in the poll.
Not really sure if any race needs any units, terran doesn't at least. Maybe add some upgrades for units already existing, the only unit I can think off that'd be nice for the game is an harrassment unit for protoss
I think there should be a lair upgrade that lets roaches morph into bane-apults. You make banelings and assign them to the bane-apult that then fires the banelings one at a time a long distance like a broodlord. You could lob live banelings up into the enemy base who could then walk over to the enemy buildings and kill them.
That might be a little too good but the other races will probably be getting some ridiculous stuff as well. Maybe to balance it the bane-apult has to root like spine/spore crawlers and can only do that on creep. That way you can either only use it defensively, use it late game when your creep reaches their base, or bring an overlord to the location that if sniped will prevent the bane-apult from continuing to attack.
On July 02 2011 21:16 Diks wrote: This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
Someone get Blizzard to hire this guy, I couldn't agree more.
That is just Starcraft 1 but. Blizzard wants to make the games different and not create SC2 as a SC1 clone.
True or not this would be some massive gameplay improvements... And if cloning some more aspects of their prequel makes it a more fun game I'm all for it.
ZERG Zerg1: 1 supply Hydras to reward players for spreading creep
lets face it, only so many hydras can attack at once due to their size and choke points and AoE can kill any amount when you defend well. They still cost alot but wont be such a supply hog, making them more reliable and expendable at the same time, I like this idea because I think Hydra should always be weak to AoE but it shouldnt be the end of the world if a control group dies to 1 or 2 storms.
Zerg2: More resiliant Creep
Creep takes alot of effort to spread, taking micro and a good memory to keep working on it every so often. Players should not have their hard work undone so easily. My idea for this stems from how Command and Conquer generals handled GLA tunnel systems, meaning you would have to kill the creep tumour twice, but maybe have the tumor become invulnerible after its been killed once, then after one minute it will begin to regrow. To kill the Creep tumor completely and dispurse creep you must destroy it during its regrowing sequence otherwise it will be fully repaired.
This Mechanic could also be effective in denieing expansions, by dropping a creep tumor under an overlord whos spreading it. This will at the very least denie an expansion for just over 1minute. (Could be accompished as early as lair tech and overlord drop to get queen over there)
Zerg3: Lurker
Has to be lurker, +7 or 8 range, with a buff against armoured if marauders are still in the same form come the expansion.
Zerg4: Infester Changes
Fungal functions too much like Pystorm for my liking however Im okay with it remaining as is, however I do wish fungal didnt effect floating/ flying (i.e scv/ probe, pheonix, muta) the same as it does ground units. Floating or air units should only have a 50% speed decrease from Fungal, its simply unfair that mass infestor can completely destroy all air tactics, plus I would like to see Mutalisks become viable in ZvZ again.
Zerg5: Small Roach change I like the Roach its a great little damage sponge, but one thing I dislike is how effective it is against the Zealot....... maybe this should be a zealot change then...... but Zealots have to be balanced along side zerglings...... so mayeb Ling and zealots need a small buff? Not sure about that, I just know that zealots for cost are just too ineffective against roaches. I dont believe mass zealot should beat mass roach but I dont like how they melt so fast at the front line in a mid game ZvP engagement.
Zerg6: Ultralisk The only thing I can think of is that they should be able to push through any non massive unit, I think that alone would work......... A marauder change would also help.
Zerg7: Corrupter & infester Corrupters should Morph from Muta, mainly because I think they can be massed much too quickly if Zerg sees Collosus but didnt scout the teching process. To help balance this, maybe both muta and corrupter can morph to broodlords.
Corrputer granted two abilities, 1) Spawn Scourge 2) Give the Neural Parasite ability to corrupter? lol, maybe give infester Dark swarm in exchange? lol Im not entirely sure about these, but I think they might work, and at least the corrupters name would finally make sense (corruption doesnt really corrupt does it?)
PROTOSS Protoss1: Replace the immortal with Reaver
Dont get me wrong I love the immortal and would like to see it stay, but the reaver was just so much more effective in so many roles and the immortal currently doesnt even fill its own tank, damge sponge role so well (Still great against tanks.... maybe for that reason alone they should remain..... maybe with a 0.5sec effect on the hardened shield to stop focus fire?).
(Note: Blink may be too effective against slow Reavers....)
Also I dont believe Blizzard will have so many robo units and I expect the Collosus to remain no matter what (probably altered a little but still present.)
Or they could just give the immortal scarabs lol.......... if they managed to make that work, without being incredibly imbalanced that'd be nice. Protoss2: Remove the Mothership and give us a real air caster. I wish to see the return of Maelstrom and an effective unit to cast recall and Stasis. I think Maelstrom is necessary to punish Mass Muta, I believe that currently there is not enough risk for the zerg doing this.
Mass Muta should be a huge risk later in the game in any match up because they are the easiest units to navigate and do damage with (not saying its easy against a bioball or deathball, just easy to navigate around, and force a base trade especially in PvZ) Protoss3: Collosus made more vulnerable It should be more vulnerable, if only for the sake of PvP, Nerfing their scoot and shoot abilties would be a nice change; i.e 0.5sec charge before each attack + 0.5 sec preparation before it can move again, in effect making the unit go into a passive siege unseiged stance. Not sure if that would work, just thinking out loud.
TERRAN Terrran is a great race at the moment, very little changes needed
Terran1: Viking Speed and Range changes Viking: Increased speed in exchange for -2 range might be nice. This would reflect the Collosus nuff in manoeuvrability
Terran2: Thor AA Buff Thor: Increased effectiveness of anti air barage, its splash radius seems to be alot weaker now than beta, Ive actually seen groups of muta clumped up and only one taking damage from several shots. +2 radius plus a mild damage buff.
Terran3: Raven Fix Raven: Increased speed and replace auto turret with Defensive matrix, and actually make seeker missile useful again or if its too powerful just replace it with Irradiate! Sorry that Im basically asking for the science vessel back but it was a much better caster unit and did a gret job of shutting down mass muta which should be an option for any race. I do think the Raven is a much cooler looking unit thanthe science vessel but it has to fulfil its role which currently it is not.
Terran4: Marauders I have actually grown to like the marauder. As a protoss player it used to be the bain of PvT however I think we have all grown used to it and in the Meta game is now balanced as people know how to handle it, however against large units like the Ultralisk, Siege tanks in TvT and Immortals they are much too good, almost game ruining (again thinking of TvT)
I already mentioned giving the Immortals hardened shield a 0.5 effect to suck in focus fire, but for the rest? I feel that maybe another armour type should be introduced, replacing armoured with medium and heavy.
Marauders can contine to do 20 damage to roaches and stalkers but weaker against buffer units.
One buff maybe to improve concussion granades to effect more units, slowing more zealots, lings, blings.
THATS ALL I GOT I think Starcraft 2 is very well balanced and fun at the moment, just whether its balanced in the "correct" way at the moment is another thing.
On July 02 2011 20:17 sabas123 wrote: P: i realy am not sure what they are gonna put into, but i hope there gonna do a reaver like untie Z: LURKER!!! T: a better anti air unit besides from marines
If they remove colossus, a reaver-like unit would be good. If they don't, it would be an overkill. They might bring back dark archon though. And why in the world would Terran need another anti-air unit? Is it because marines actually require micro? Rofl. For Terran, I'd like combat shield being replaced by marine range upgrade. As for the unit, I can't see medics being brought back and same applies for firebats. I think it would be a ground mech unit if they somehow think that terran requires anything.
With Zerg, I would like a caster and lurkers though. Or scourges and lurkers and make corruptor greater spire unit. If they aren't going to put a good caster unit in the game, at least please turn overseer into something we might want to get for anything other than mobile detection.
On July 02 2011 23:10 Billd wrote: I didn't play BW (I wish I did) so I can't comment on returning BW units. However, I play Zerg and have always envied the Protoss for the Observer. I'm not a big fan of the Changeling and I've pondered the effects of removing it and replacing it with an ability that cloaks the Overseer for a period of time.
Oh and Queens injecting Evo Chambers speeds up the upgrades! Okay, probably not going to happen ^.^
My apologies for deviating from the units in the poll.
I dunno why people don't like changelings...unless the guy has got anti air ringing his whole base and units ready in there to kill it, you're going to see inside his main.
For Protoss: An anti-air only big unit (high hp). Like some massive dragoon with AOE attack or a flying caster with corsair-like attack and detection (raven style). Either detection from the stargate or a unit that attacks air from the robotics, both sound good.
For Zerg: Scourge. Literally, flying banelings with slightly slower movement speed to phoenixes (aoe and bonus against light makes them cool).
On July 02 2011 21:16 Diks wrote: This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven.
Protoss: Replace collossi with something else. Anything else really. Do something about warp prisms.
Terran: Pretty much already has it all, mines is about the only thing i can think of which they could use.
Zerg: Lurker ofc, remove banelings if you want i want lurker back. Hydras need a change, if your going to make the only zerg ground to air unit bound to creep which is easily destroyed; at least make it a scary unit ffs :x
edit:
This list won't happen.
It's the equivalent of Blizz coming out and admitting that they should have made SC2 like BW in the first place.
They made terran almost exactly like they did in broodwar, why did they have to neuter the other races in terms of gameplay lol
I would totally love to see a mech ground to air which is similar to turrets/Goliath cause atm mech is so dependent on turrets vs mass muta or vikings/turrets against voidray/carrier. I'd love to see that change.
I'd also love something like Lurker with most of its damage being +armored so it doesn't have a similar role to banelings/baneling mines and that would probably make ZvZ less mass roach midgame. Zerg would just have so much more variety if they could hold a position very cost efficient.
Also a unit like Reaver that is nice to drop would be a great addition for Protoss and make dropship harrass a lot more viable and thus the game more dynamic.
Other than that I totally agree with Morrow, I generally want units that are hard to micro (and force your enemy to micro)
I would suggest bringing reaver back (with much better scarab AI), and probably an air caster. Perhaps an upgrade for pheonix to attack ground with a different weapon? Another unit I would like to see is the spider mines :D
I'd actually like to see something like the Goliath for T. Being able to fight non-muta air units almost exclusively with vikings or marines seems kinda strange. The Thor as ground to air unit is just awfully specific vs mutas considering it has about same dps vs non-light air units as a SINGLE marine.
For Protoss I think the better way do deal with the colossus dominace would be to make the other tech paths more viable. Maybe by adding a "small" air spellcaster with detection.
On July 02 2011 23:47 zbedlam wrote: Protoss: Replace collossi with something else. Anything else really. Do something about warp prisms.
Terran: Pretty much already has it all, mines is about the only thing i can think of which they could use.
Zerg: Lurker ofc, remove banelings if you want i want lurker back. Hydras need a change, if your going to make the only zerg ground to air unit bound to creep which is easily destroyed; at least make it a scary unit ffs :x
on another train of thought, does anyone think we will see a new ultra massive unit like the Mothership for Zerg or Terran............. more or, even if its considered "not a high level combat unit" why does only Protoss get them? just seems off.
On July 03 2011 00:17 Vinx wrote: on another train of thought, does anyone think we will see a new ultra massive unit like the Mothership for Zerg or Terran............. more or, even if its considered "not a high level combat unit" why does only Protoss get them? just seems off.
Protoss get the MShip because Zerg has Nydus and Terran has Nukes.
Protoss and Zerg both will get more units that take very micro intensive units that take a lot of skills to use ( Reaver , Lurkers maybe ). Terran will just get slight little changes since they are already good. Things like Colossus, Marauders, Roaches, and banelings will get some tone downs, especially Colossus since they will now have the Reaver.
problem with this game is i didnt see eny Epic game as in bw....
when HOTS come out i will whatch 1000 reps casts stims ... and dicide to by it... simply i dont like SC2 at all... i played SC1 played WC3 played diablo 2 WOw... every game blizz made...
but SC2 is lol game Look at ZvT gameplay.... its Joke A move Banglings VS A move Stimed marines... Seige tanks VS BANGLINGS... Gameplay (hahaha LOL)
whont to point out there is no Logic in curent Gameplay and no strategy....alos Dinamith pathing bring that that game dont LOOK like strategy....
PvZ is ok....only matchup that i like... and PvT alos joke... A move MMM vs A move Colloss Ball vs Ball...=joke...
SC1 is art ... WC3 is art but in diferent way... SC2 is = litle bether than EA games...(right now)
END (i am disapointed that i byed the game) ( i w8 plenty of time to game get bether but it didnt...)
Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
was there a point in this thread? looks like people want reaver, lurker and vulture back even though in the poll it says excluding them, its obvious what people are thinking.
You CANNOT give lurkers to zerg, without giving reavers back and seriously changing siege tanks. Lurkers in sc2 would simply be way too imba, unless they wer tier 3 and cost like 400 gas -_-
On July 03 2011 00:52 Stress wrote: Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
No, the Colossus is the most bland unit of all. It was voted so already in previous threads. It's boring, requires no micro, and is far too good considering that. It was a mistake replacing the Reaver with such garbage.
On July 03 2011 00:52 Stress wrote: Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
Because it's an a-move unit and we see it in just about every game involving a Protoss. It's blandness comes from gameplay not art style.
Regardless of how many cool lasers it shoots out, it's uninteresting to use and adds next to no exciting gameplay dynamics. It's just plain and boring.
Marines vs Banelings is a perfect example of the way units should ideally be interacting.
I hope to god that HotS brings in some more microable units.
I don't see why people think Blizzard will add units that resemble BW units. They have said MANY times that they want to stray away from BW and make a unique game.
There will never be lurker in SC2
There will never be reaver in SC2
There will never be vulture in SC2
So lets try to be creative and think of what really could be added.
Zerg - Flying Casting (utility unit) Protoss - Harassment unit (Maybe something that can be loaded into a Warp Prism well) Terran - Terran has everything, I don't really know what could be added. Maybe another Mech unit, but probably a flying mech type unit. Idk Honestly.
lol I like how everyone just chose things that were in brood war in the poll. It was asking what the most likely addition would be... I definitely disagree that those would be likely (especially for zerg and toss). Colossus already fills a reaver-like role, same with the baneling and lurker. Sure they aren't they same but Blizzard's even implied that the lurker wasn't included because it held a similar role to the baneling.
Toss: Micro gateway unit (something maybe like reaper, but maybe without cliff walk) Zerg: Lair or hive area control (something that would take the role of either defiler/lurker) Terran: They have full arsenal, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even get any units.
I want to see reavers and lurkers like everyone else, but it's not happening. The poll results are strange. You can't have collosus and reavers.. You can't have broodlords and lurkers. In order for these to replace the latter, there would be some major reworking of the races.
For Terran, I can see a new mech unit. That'd be cool if they reworked the current vulture model and replaced the hellion, but alas that's just a boy's dream. For Protoss, a lot of people say/suggest that there may be a harassment unit (artosis in recent interview). I disagree with this, as in the current metagame and the metagame we've seen since the start, Protoss have turned into this kind of turtle or time race. A harassment unit I feel would turn into something like the Protoss Reaper. No role to fill, somewhat useless in most parts of the game. I would like to see the mothership be reworked or just replaced with Arbiters, honestly. Blizz butchered whatever use she had, now it's no more than a 400/400 8 food garnish for your army. As far as Zerg goes, I honestly have no clue what you could give them. After months and months they seem to finally piece together what they need, and I feel like there is no niche to be filled at the moment.
Zerg needs something that makes engaging sieged positions easier like dark swarm did. Broodlords are mandatory if you wanna engage terran late game and this kinda sucks.
I'd also like to see the lurker coming back but I don't see it happening. I also think that some units might need some tweaking like the queen, hydra, corruptor and maybe give the ultra unit-walk. I also think roaches need a late game upgrade to make them more viable, maybe something like +3 armor too?
On July 03 2011 00:46 thebole1 wrote: problem with this game is i didnt see eny Epic game as in bw....
when HOTS come out i will whatch 1000 reps casts stims ... and dicide to by it... simply i dont like SC2 at all... i played SC1 played WC3 played diablo 2 WOw... every game blizz made...
but SC2 is lol game Look at ZvT gameplay.... its Joke A move Banglings VS A move Stimed marines... Seige tanks VS BANGLINGS... Gameplay (hahaha LOL)
whont to point out there is no Logic in curent Gameplay and no strategy....alos Dinamith pathing bring that that game dont LOOK like strategy....
PvZ is ok....only matchup that i like... and PvT alos joke... A move MMM vs A move Colloss Ball vs Ball...=joke...
SC1 is art ... WC3 is art but in diferent way... SC2 is = litle bether than EA games...(right now)
END (i am disapointed that i byed the game) ( i w8 plenty of time to game get bether but it didnt...)
i didn't... understand .. what the fuck... you just... said
Colossus already fills a reaver-like role, same with the baneling and lurker. Sure they aren't they same but Blizzard's even implied that the lurker wasn't included because it held a similar role to the baneling.
I am hoping that blizzard will step back a bit from their role-oriented unit design. I don't think all of the units should be designed for specific roles. Units specifically designed to harass like the reaper just seem lame.
What role does the reaver/shuttle have in BW? It can harass, but it also is an insanely powerful area-of-affect unit. The vulture both harasses and lays spider mines which can kill an entire army if it isn't controlled properly.
I remember somewhere blizzard admitting that the reaper isn't what they want, so maybe instead of adding more units they will revamp existing ones to make units more versatile, allowing them to be used in creative ways.
The other thing I would really like to see blizzard do with the expansion is add more interesting elements to the way armies interact. Take the overused example of tvz in BW. The way units interacted in battle was just entertaining both to watch and play. Scourge try to snipe vessels, vessels try to snipe defilers, and defilers cast dark swarm to let the zerg engage the terran without being ripped to shreds. Thats not even mentioning the way lurkers and mm interact.
Anyways, I think (maybe I'm just hoping) that this is the kind of interactions we will see in the expansions, whether blizzard tweaks existing units or designs new ones entirely.
I feel like protoss will get some sort of harassment based unit, since their ability to harass is really limited compared to the other 2 races. They do have DTs, and can do some early stargate shenanigans, but its nothing compared to zerg and terran harass IMO
On July 03 2011 00:46 thebole1 wrote: problem with this game is i didnt see eny Epic game as in bw....
when HOTS come out i will whatch 1000 reps casts stims ... and dicide to by it... simply i dont like SC2 at all... i played SC1 played WC3 played diablo 2 WOw... every game blizz made...
but SC2 is lol game Look at ZvT gameplay.... its Joke A move Banglings VS A move Stimed marines... Seige tanks VS BANGLINGS... Gameplay (hahaha LOL)
whont to point out there is no Logic in curent Gameplay and no strategy....alos Dinamith pathing bring that that game dont LOOK like strategy....
PvZ is ok....only matchup that i like... and PvT alos joke... A move MMM vs A move Colloss Ball vs Ball...=joke...
SC1 is art ... WC3 is art but in diferent way... SC2 is = litle bether than EA games...(right now)
END (i am disapointed that i byed the game) ( i w8 plenty of time to game get bether but it didnt...)
This is either the most stupid motherfucker at TL, or one of the more creative trollers I've seen here atleast. Like every single word is misspelled >.> "BANGLINGS"? Maybe he's just a kid and I shouldn't be too mean.. I hope you have a nice time now before school starts and that you grow up to be a strong man, buddy. Remember to eat your vegetables.
P:It would be cool if they remade the carrier somehow, or made a new air unit that could be microed well. Reaver would also be cool!
Z: Hmm, it would be really fitting if we could get something out of the Overseer, some new spells or something that makes overseer more of a raven sort of thing, perhaps able to infest units somehow.
T: Terran feels like the most "complete" race right now, somehow I can see they could perhaps need something in the lines of the Goliath.
I would love to see the collosus replaced by the reaver and lurkers included even with banelings being in the game. Saying their roles are similar is true, but they would still be used in very different circumstances.
Hell I would love if they just kept the same units as they had in BW, even though when sc2 was coming out I was not one of the people who really wanted that to happen.
On July 03 2011 05:26 rift wrote: They aren't bringing back the lurker or reaver because of how units form giant balls; it would be overpowered.
Let's hope deathballs are eradicated by HotS, and area of effect spells and attacks are rebalanced.
They aren't bringing back siege tanks because of how units form giant balls; it would be overpowered.
I do hope they do something about the Colossus. I'd like to see it replaced with Reavers, but I'd also be happy if they just did *something* with it.
Tanks were rebalanced quite a bit. Anyways as far as taking out units go, they said they would likely have to as they added units, because "units are getting near Brood War numbers". Kim/Browder expressed that the reaper was nerfed into oblivion, and the overseer was generally useless, so I expect them to look at those.
I'll be shocked if the Spectre isnt the new terran unit. His abilities just make so much sense for this game, and is cool and everyone wanted to get one after playing the campaign
I think protoss needs a map control / harassing unit. I'm thinking reaper, so I went with the cliffwalk alternative.
I think zergs should have darkswarm imo
Terran I feel has the most complete arsenal of stuff. I don't think that there's a particular unit missing, but possible improvements could be made on existing ones.
On July 03 2011 05:31 Cartel wrote: I'll be shocked if the Spectre isnt the new terran unit. His abilities just make so much sense for this game, and is cool and everyone wanted to get one after playing the campaign
That's quite a bit of overlap with the Ghost. Honestly I think if Terrans got a new caster, it will either replace the Raven, or the Raven will be getting buffed/reworked. Right now basically no one gets Raven except for certain TvP timing attacks with PDD or for detection (and even then, they usually just opt for mass Orbitals.) I really think Reaper needs to be reworked or removed; right now it's really a gimmick unit.
I think Protoss need some overhaul/changes to their air force. Carrier is rather lackluster right now. They could also use a nice mobility-based harass unit.
For Zerg, it really depends on the direction they want to take them. The fact is, as awesome of a unit Lurker is, I expect to see new ideas in an expansion, not just recycling old ones. I feel they could use an additional hatchery and hive tech level option. Lair is fairly robust, although Hydralisks could be looked at in terms of design. Perhaps some more ways to get creep onto the battlefield quickly (new overseer ability?) to give hydralisks a bit more mobility but not independent.
On July 02 2011 20:21 Pwnographics wrote: In a perfect world.
Roach is replaced with a lurker-esque unit.
Marauder removed.
Collosi removed.
Immortals to have effect of knockback when attacking a unit / i.e mini forcefield. Adding upgrade for range in robo bay to have max range of 7 for kiting.
So you wanna remove the maruader and give it to the protoss? That totally seems fair.
I would not at all like to see a minelaying unit for terran without giving zerg a more robust hydralisk like in SC1, or if they put hydralisk on hatch tech and roach on lair tech.
For zerg, lurkers would be nice, it would put the pressure on T and P quite nicely. I never feel like I have the pressure on those races when I play against them unless I'm straight up winning, and I'd like to have an early midgame - late game crutch. Infestors are a good crutch, but they die quickly and can run out of energy. I dunno, we'll see.
Protoss needs a harassy unit i think, and most P will say the same. I almost want to say that P needs another stalker like unit that is light and comes from warpgate.
For Terran it would be nice if concussive shells wasn't so expensive and didn't take so long to upgrade.
Air caster. I think they will remove the mothership completely from the game and bring back the arbiter, at least I hope for this because the mothership is a big waste of memory on every ones WoL installation. I'm also thinking they completely change the protoss air. Carriers have a problem with being effective late game due to it's counters already being on the field (corrupters/vikings/stalkers) which is why I think they might change it into a different unit. Possibly a light unit that is fast and has more range and is a glass cannon (high dps, not a lot of health, maybe a lot of shields like an archon?) and the inteceptors are free (but can't hold as many?). There aren't any particular units in WoL that specifically counter LIGHT air units besides the thor which could make the new carrier actually effective late game (theory crafting here).
Zerg:
I voted for scourge because I don't think lurkers are actually needed at all. Why? Because we already have burrowed banelings and they are AMAZING. Scourge in my opinion is a much better choice because it would A.) remove the corrupter and B.) give the mutalisk the option to morph into a broodlord. Scourge would be SO much better because they suicide! Whats more annoying than a protoss who makes colossi then transitions into mass stalker and ends up winning because you have too much supply invested into corrupters? With scourge, and with Zergs refill at 200/200, I don't think colossi balls would be that bad, make a few scourge, kill the colossi and remax with a ground army. Maybe it would be TOO cheap, but I just really like the idea of having a cheap massable unit for zerg that comes from an expensive tech structure. Since the Muta would now be able to become a broodlord, TvZ would be more streamlined in that you just need mutas for the most part until they get thors in which case you need broodlords and then you'd need scourge to deal with vikings. I think scourge would just make everything better and more exciting. Units that would counter them would be phoenix (they would fly faster then them) and goliaths.
Terran:
remove thors, add goliaths. Give goliaths a small, very small air AOE like the thor but goliaths are strong in that they are more mobile than marines without stim. Their ground attack is weak but their GtA is very powerful as terran would need seige tanks to deal with GtG when going mech. Maybe allow the goliath to be made from reactor factories? They also should have a ranged upgrade on the tech lab for their GtA like in BW.
1.) remove mothership for arbiter and replace carrier with a more effective and unique carrier. 2.) remove corrupter, allow muta to become broodlord and add in scourge. Scourge is a light unit that suicides AOE and does bonus to armored. 3.) remove thor and bring back goliath. Possibly allow it to be made from a factory with a reactor. It has a GtA ranged upgrade at the tech lab. It's GtG attack is similar to the vikings and its GtA is similar to the thors but does half as much damage.
Voidray: The final nerf. Replace it with something more robust without scaling damage. Less all ins, maybe a tiny AOE.
Overseer: super expensive scout. Zerg get detection some other way, queens get the changling and we all rejoice.
Reaper: Because it was also nerfed to the point of sillyness(for good reason).
Things to get a reworking?
Scouting early for zerg and maybe protoss(damn 6 rax all in)
Ultra: We all know why.
Immortal: to specialized
Raven?: I hear it can shoot missles, but Ive never seen it happen.
Nydus: Somehow get it so it can be used, but also isnt a rush.
I don't know what they are changing, but I would like to see more game styles and less all ins. I would like protoss to be able to go stargate against terran and for zerg teir 3 not to be horrible.
On July 02 2011 20:26 Klive5ive wrote: I want them to take out units. Thor, Collosus, Imortal, Roach, Viking, Ultralisk.... just to name a few :p
Predictions though? Zerg: I could see an air caster for Zerg definitely. They kinda already hinted that overseer would go so maybe to replace that.
Terran: They don't need anything but Blizz hinted at reapers being kinda pointless so maybe a better version of that.
Protoss: They need a better dropship than warp prism so maybe again an air caster could come back. Shield Battery could be a huge addition to the game also; allowing Protoss players to more easily defend positions.
The warp prism is really good.... Just not enough people use it yet. With speed it cant be caught by anything.
I feel like it would bee a lot better if 2 things were true.
1. A unit that could be dropped to do cost effective damage.
2. A defensive unit or structure to help protoss stay alive without relying on force field.
Protoss: They may implement a shield healer unit (kind of like a mobile shield battery, but more like a medic) I've seen an example called the "preserver" in a UMS game. I doubt they'd bring a unit like the reaver back, seeing as how the collosus already really fills that and was kind of meant to replace it. I'd also like a return of the corsair, but have it play in with the phoenix somehow (upgrading?)
Terran: I think adding the diamondback would be hilarious, or a return of the valkyrie.
Zerg: Comeback of the lurker maybe? Or maybe some sort of cliffhopping unit?
Ummm tbh there are a few things that I disagree with the OP. First off, Protoss DOES have a cliff hopper. Its called the colossus, which can also see up cliffs. So in fact they have the BEST cliff hopper, better than the reaper which can't see up cliffs. Also, you say that the brotoss doesn't have an air caster... Well, in fact the Phoenix can do graviton beams! That's all
Protoss: Some kind of fast harrasment unit Zerg: Direct AOE damage unit (not spells) Terran: Predator type unit? Can't think of a true hole in terran arsenal
protoss needs a robo unit that hits air, preferably with splash zerg needs an anti caster unit like ghost and templar Terran needs to not have marauders, not sure what else they need cause they have everything. helions should cost gas.
I would like to see the Tempest replace Carriers. Carriers are already a useless unit. I would like the tempest to have an AoE vs ground units (no AA att), much like the Colossus, and that it can only be attacked from the ground. I would also like it to have hardened shields against air att, but no shields against GtA att.
Protoss: Ranged dps to support zealots and sentry's/ a fast harass unit. (Reavers would be fun but toss don't have the best drop mechanic imo)
Zerg: Ground artillery unit (i don't know how well the lurker would translate into SC2).
Terran: IDK. Ground mech unit, The goliath would give some mobile anti-air. (Terran seems quite fine with the exception of minor tweaks here and there)
I am hoping for something a bit more original. Zerg should have a siege weapon that works like the slingshot in Angry Birds. It would be hilarious to shoot banelings at the enemy that way.
Terran should have a Mega Thor which is built by combining several Thors into one badass unit.
Protoss should have Gray Templars that cannot reproduce by themselves but can adopt other units which may or may not become Gay I mean Grey Templars themselves.
Protoss: Colossus out for some other kind of direct AoE. Maybe some kind of fast harass unit, I dislike stalkers for that role because blink makes the unit as a whole rather ridiculous and means toss is using the same unit all game. Having a very fast unit and getting rid of the blinkers would be nice.
Zerg: Something to abuse cliffs or at least another swarming unit. I would love to see a flying ling (melee air) of some form. Something to exploit the burrow mechanic more would be cool (ability to go up cliffs only in burrow mode or once burrow is researched?). I think nydus isn't used enough to stick around ... but who knows, maybe it will stay.
Terran: They seem to have just about everything ... more units than the other races too. I am guessing the Raven gets replaced. The reaper needs a revamp so maybe another barracks unit. I just don't see Terran getting too many additions so much as replacements given they have a lot of stuff already.
I could immagine a walking shield battery (like a unit that restores shields not wordly a walking shield battery ofc). If ballanced that could be realy nice and could allow nice strats based on this.
My predictions: Terran will get some sort of melee unit. Protoss will get some something (on the ground) with bonus damage to light. Zerg will get an aerial spellcaster.
The results of the poll are stupid. Protoss already has colossi, they do not need any more ground artillery. Why would people vote for that? Zerg could use a fire-while-burrowed unit if it was single target. With banelings, they need no more ground splash. I'm sick of how people wish this was brood war.
What do people not get about the fact that they will not add Lurkers, they're tech position is just not in sync with the meta-game. They were planned as Hive Tech, and with units like the Colossi and Blink Stalkers, Void Rays, and Marauders they will be no where as strong as in Brood War. Fungal Growth only holds for 4 seconds, and if you are going to repeatedly cast it the DPS of a Lurker is already meaningless on most units. I understand fire while burrowed, but something exactly like the Lurker is not going to happen.
I want a SERIOUS air-casting unit (no Mothership v.2 please) for any race except Zerg (doesn't seem to fit with the idea).
I think Terran needs a good lategame unit that can either make Mech viable or make bio viable late game, Protoss needs a micro-intensive harass unit, and Zerg needs a unit that can attack while burrowed. That's what I'm guessing at least.
On July 03 2011 06:50 ampson wrote: The results of the poll are stupid. Protoss already has colossi, they do not need any more ground artillery. Why would people vote for that?
They vote because they want reaver back, because reaver is <3
On July 03 2011 06:50 FortyOzs wrote: I think Terran needs a good lategame unit that can either make Mech viable or make bio viable late game, Protoss needs a micro-intensive harass unit, and Zerg needs a unit that can attack while burrowed. That's what I'm guessing at least.
On July 03 2011 06:50 iTzAnglory wrote: What do people not get about the fact that they will not add Lurkers, they're tech position is just not in sync with the meta-game. They were planned as Hive Tech, and with units like the Colossi and Blink Stalkers, Void Rays, and Marauders they will be no where as strong as in Brood War. Fungal Growth only holds for 4 seconds, and if you are going to repeatedly cast it the DPS of a Lurker is already meaningless on most units. I understand fire while burrowed, but something exactly like the Lurker is not going to happen.
I want a SERIOUS air-casting unit (no Mothership v.2 please) for any race except Zerg (doesn't seem to fit with the idea).
People want lurker because what it did in BW is exactly what zerg need atm. omething that punish player for not having detection / something to hold a position / a more defensive unit
But yeah, lurker themselves won't fit. Blizzard need to make something new that fit the role.
Really would like some melee unit(s) for terran. Just not the mecha-cats from the campaign... The question is, should it be armored or light?
Surprised to see so many votes for Ground artillery (ex. Reaver) for Protoss, isn't the Colossus filling that role quite nicely (i.e. outranging cannons, spines and PF's)?
Remove/revamp overseer, give zerg a new aerial spellcaster with more in-battle functionality - see Raven. Just give zerg more units in general, they're behind! I'd like to see a zerg ground unit with a reverse Graviton beam (wc3 crypt fiend web, or raider net) to help with early banshees/void rays. Give it low enough dps/hp to be a waste of resources if it can't use its spell(s) - like a sentry. Maybe have it able to cliffwalk too (or cliff-jump, zerg are agile no? ^^), for maximum void ray tears.
Please Please PLEASE something like the reaver... I need some kind of harrass that I have a chance of not losing... (DTS and Pheonix... nothing like blue flame, marine drops, or baneling drops t.t)
I don't think that zerg will get the scourge back. In sc2, there is no moving shot (yes there is phoenix) for any air unit. That means it would be almost impossible to get a shot off without taking hits from them. The phoenix would be untouchable and all other air units would have no chance. A unit that can control an area is more likely.
I hope that the colossus gets removed or reworked in some way.
Zergs needs a microable unit that punishs bad control Protoss needs a harass unit out of the robo Terran needs a second good spellcaster (ghost is fine, raven is trash)
Its funny that everyone thinks itll be sc1 units; when theyve clearly said they want it to feel like a different game. the chances of them adding in more sc1 units is slim to null.
As Day9 said, SC2 needs units that allow you to control space. I that's the key reason as to why we're seeing army balls vs army balls. You need to have your army together in case your opponent attacks you with his whole army. Things like mines, dark swarm, and lurkers is what allowed you to separate your army.
On July 02 2011 20:17 sabas123 wrote: T: a better anti air unit besides from marines
This is the best idea in the thread. Many Terran users would like the possibility to transition out of marines, but they can't. Marines are the only rapid-fire anti-air unit for the Terran with a cooldown of .86 or .57 stimmed. Vikings have a slow, 2.0 cooldown shot, leading to massive overkill. Thors have the super-slow, 3.0 cooldown shot which as effective as the splash is, cannot stand against mutas (or anything else) alone.
Terran need a ground unit with an anti-air rate of fire between 1.2 and 1.5 cooldown. Goliath could fulfill this role, but Blizzard can be creative if they want. But Marines are a requirement for Terran and I would like that requirement removed.
I think it would be pretty awesome if they straight up replaced the thor with the goliath.. They already hinted at removing the overseer though, so I'm sure zerg will get some air caster unit.
This is either the most stupid motherfucker at TL, or one of the more creative trollers I've seen here atleast. Like every single word is misspelled >.> "BANGLINGS"? Maybe he's just a kid and I shouldn't be too mean.. I hope you have a nice time now before school starts and that you grow up to be a strong man, buddy. Remember to eat your vegetables.
i am 24age... also stady and do sports... i play game for fun.... but i expect much more from SC2...
whont to say game is bad becouse : DINAMIC PATHING .. A move unites (no micro)....Low supply armys = colloss=6pop thors=6pop....on and on...(low pop army but fast producing)
whay everybody like BW unites to bring back in SC2...? they are less pop unites thay are good micro intesive unites... thay are bw unites and SC1 =EPIC GAME SC2 = Little bether then EA game...sry for my ENG...thx for reading...
also i didnt whatch SC2 games before i by SC2 (i thouth it was good game) but i will whatch HOTS... and then dicide if i am gona by it...
Lurker and "artilery unit" are actually reasonably similar in function for example. And I don't think we're gonna see any of those for protoss but rather get a new defenisive unit. It CAN'T be like the sentry because the sentry is fine for offence as well, it has to really shine in defense, like how zerg is just defensive in general (creep, queens, burrow, repositional defenses, importance of expansions), and how terran CAN play defensive (bunkers, supply depots and tanks which allow defense but can then be used to make way for the offensive push as well). Meanwhile, PvP still suffers slightly as a matchup because of a complete lack of defensive presence (photon cannons arn't good enough against blink stalkers).
I'm not saying toss absolutely NEEDS a defensive unit, but it would add a lot more depth to PvP I think.
There was an interview somewhere (I can't find the link) with blizzard where they talked about some of the units that could be removed in HotS. The two that I remember them specifically mentioning was the Overseer and the Raven, as they felt they weren't fufilling the roles they had originally designed them for.
The things I really think they'll add are as follows: Z: 1: A tier 1 scouting unit, either a quick flying unit that doesn't attack, or a cliff walking unit perhaps. Potentially an upgrade from the zergling or roach that comes from the Pool/Warren. 2: A mid game space controlling unit, something to slow down pushes(an upgrade from Hydras maybe, though not the lurker. Something with long range splash.) P: 1: A harassment unit likely to come from the Robo. Something that is fast moving. T: 1: A new factory unit, with strong AA (no splash). Potentially light armored and quick moving, and would likely not require a tech lab (for quick reactor style production).
On July 02 2011 20:17 sabas123 wrote: T: a better anti air unit besides from marines
This is the best idea in the thread. Many Terran users would like the possibility to transition out of marines, but they can't. Marines are the only rapid-fire anti-air unit for the Terran with a cooldown of .86 or .57 stimmed. Vikings have a slow, 2.0 cooldown shot, leading to massive overkill. Thors have the super-slow, 3.0 cooldown shot which as effective as the splash is, cannot stand against mutas (or anything else) alone.
Terran need a ground unit with an anti-air rate of fire between 1.2 and 1.5 cooldown. Goliath could fulfill this role, but Blizzard can be creative if they want. But Marines are a requirement for Terran and I would like that requirement removed.
That's like saying lings shouldn't be required to play Zerg past mid game.. They're there for a reason. I think Terrans AA is great. Thors + Marines and Missile Turrets dominate mutas, Vikings dominate broodlord/corrupter and voidrays. What else do you want to be even more OP? You think that T AA is weak? Come on man. You say Vikings give massive over-kill, that may be the case.. But they can target ground and just wipe face with the existing ground army of yours after killing off the air units.
I don't really think Blizzard will make the Lurker a multiplayer unit. The vibe we are getting from them, and from pretty much every playstyle ever coming out now is a very mobile army. Attacking from multiple fronts to break up a death ball. Lots of drops, run by's, etc. A very mobile army. I don't think Blizzard will stray from that.
I'm not saying I don't want the Lurker. I think it would be fucking amazing, but I don't really see it.
On July 03 2011 07:35 TheDougler wrote: I think the poll selections are pretty bad...
Lurker and "artilery unit" are actually reasonably similar in function for example. And I don't think we're gonna see any of those for protoss but rather get a new defenisive unit. It CAN'T be like the sentry because the sentry is fine for offence as well, it has to really shine in defense, like how zerg is just defensive in general (creep, queens, burrow, repositional defenses, importance of expansions), and how terran CAN play defensive (bunkers, supply depots and tanks which allow defense but can then be used to make way for the offensive push as well). Meanwhile, PvP still suffers slightly as a matchup because of a complete lack of defensive presence (photon cannons arn't good enough against blink stalkers).
I'm not saying toss absolutely NEEDS a defensive unit, but it would add a lot more depth to PvP I think.
What would be awesome imo is if they gave Protoss a way to access the recall spell from the mothership through a structure or a caster upgrade. Make it cost like 200 energy from a Templar or give Protoss a recall structure to move their army around.
My expectation is that blizzard will add units that are powerful in their own right but really shine with good multi-tasking and APM. I think that the Medivac is a great example of what the new units will be like. Relatively straightforward primary usage but with the option of being amazing when used for drops or elevatoring. I don't see them adding units that let players close off a section (or sections) of the map and force long crawling slogs.
Except for the lurker (which was very needed to fight mass marines i guess), the rest were heavy air-to-air stuff (Valk, Corsair, Devourer) or casters (Medic, Dark Archon).
I totally expect them to follow the trend and make more air and anti-air stuff and a few casters. Protoss could totally use a ground-to-air specialist, just like terran and zerg could use some new air-to-air, like new tweaked versions of the valkyrie and scourge. Probably most or all of them with some form of aoe damage. Maybe the terran one could have a predator-style attack, that would be badass.
For the casters they could work with clasic ideas like dealing only damage to the enemy energy bars (or to both HP and energy), reloading the allies energy bars (HTs and Infestors rejoice), or the obvious shield-regeneration for protoss.
As a personal dream. I would love a very slow and badass artillery unit for protoss, with a similar attack as the reaver, except much weaker, that also hits air and has a big bonus against armored Kinda overlaps the immortal role but whatever.
Another nice step would be to revise and redesign the overseer and corruptor to make place for a decent air caster for zerg.
Random things I think would be awesome and might not break the game and might improve the game:
Robo bay research that allows an immortal to morph into a ball, increasing its movement speed and preventing it from attacking until morphed back into walker mode.
New terran ground caster produced by the factory that can quickly shuttle around ground units one at a time, erect small destructible steel blocks, paint a target with a laser to increase dps against it, or create a smokescreen around itself that cloaks and blinds all units in its radius (unless they have detection to give sight) for a period of time
New massive zerg hive-tech siege-ranged ground unit that can attack ground units while burrowed, doing bonus damage to armored and NOT doing splash damage.
New overlord ability that allows to overlord to empty the gas in its sacs to greatly boost its movement speed, but automatically leading to its deflation and death after a period of time
Seriously, the polls are so skewed towards Brood War units. As much as I love Brood War, for the sake of SC2's future, at least 1 or 2 completely new unit types need to be added to keep things fresh and challenging. We've already had 10 years figuring out the old stuff. I hope Blizzard gives us something new to play around with and figure out.
On July 03 2011 08:14 Gliche wrote: Seriously, the polls are so skewed towards Brood War units. As much as I love Brood War, for the sake of SC2's future, at least 1 or 2 completely new unit types need to be added to keep things fresh and challenging. We've already had 10 years figuring out the old stuff. I hope Blizzard gives us something new to play around with and figure out.
Old BW units with conjunction of SC2's newer units will result in newer strategies that weren't possible in BW. We wouldn't be seeing the same exact strategies from BW. I think it would simply be awesome, to bring back those "clutch" units.
On July 02 2011 20:17 sabas123 wrote: T: a better anti air unit besides from marines
This is the best idea in the thread. Many Terran users would like the possibility to transition out of marines, but they can't. Marines are the only rapid-fire anti-air unit for the Terran with a cooldown of .86 or .57 stimmed. Vikings have a slow, 2.0 cooldown shot, leading to massive overkill. Thors have the super-slow, 3.0 cooldown shot which as effective as the splash is, cannot stand against mutas (or anything else) alone.
Terran need a ground unit with an anti-air rate of fire between 1.2 and 1.5 cooldown. Goliath could fulfill this role, but Blizzard can be creative if they want. But Marines are a requirement for Terran and I would like that requirement removed.
That's like saying lings shouldn't be required to play Zerg past mid game.. They're there for a reason. I think Terrans AA is great. Thors + Marines and Missile Turrets dominate mutas, Vikings dominate broodlord/corrupter and voidrays. What else do you want to be even more OP? You think that T AA is weak? Come on man. You say Vikings give massive over-kill, that may be the case.. But they can target ground and just wipe face with the existing ground army of yours after killing off the air units.
You're not quite getting my point. Terran anti-air is quite good, but that's because of the marine. I want Terran anti-air to be playable without marine. So I guess it goes without saying, that a new GtA unit (like Goliath) would require serious revision or removal to Thor, Viking, or Marine. I'd actual be in support of nerfing the Marines anti-air capabilities if we got the Goliath.
For the casters they could work with clasic ideas like dealing only damage to the enemy energy bars (or to both HP and energy), reloading the allies energy bars (HTs and Infestors rejoice), or the obvious shield-regeneration for protoss..
They btried something like that in Alpha. Infestor had a spell which would drain energy from ennemy caster to them. But the utilisation did not feel that good i guess.
I Don't think they should add units to toss and terran, zerg could use another unit tho. If anything just give some upgrades to the current units in mp for terran/toss Range upgrade for rines plz?? : ))))
Ok,so for Protoss,I think they need a flyer caster unit. It could also play the role of a shield battery,like regenerating the shields of protoss units. Maybe it should be really high tier,like coming out of the stargate only if u have the templar archives as well or something like that.
For Zerg,people plz stop writing lurkers,infestors-burrowed banelings have excactly the same role,lurkers would be an overkill. I would love to see a food 1 unit for the zerg that could also be anti-air,mabe a mini-hydralisk with half dmg and hp but for 50/25 cost. And do the alpha roach viable,but as tier 2 and maybe costlier.
Terran has two main issues, lack of mobile detection and lack of mech anti-air. A unit that resemble a moving turret would solve both,maybe have it do extra damage vs Armored. I would also want to include a strange requirement for this,obviously from factory but with an e-bay? I would love to see that.
Lurkers seige tanks spider mines and dragons = best multiplayer unites for any strategy....game...
i think sc2 should be game that all up listed unites should be in SC2 and add some new staf on top (around) of it... but basic staf is listed is UP ....
I'd like to see Terran get some sort of mine laying capability I think it plays really well into the positional play of mech Terran, and I think the lack of area denial is what makes mech weaker in most matchups compared to infantry.
But then again I'd also like Terran to get decent AA besides marines. 'Goliaths' would do nicely, and again would help the Terran mech army. Right now every Terran composition must have at least a decent component of marines simply because Thors and Vikings suck ass for AA.
Could we have both? Would any pair of pants be able to contain Goody's erection?
I'm not so sure any of the new units will fall under any of the categories that you outlined. In fact, I think, and indeed am hoping, that the new units will open up new gameplay mechanics, or more interesting unit interactions.
I wish they'd remove phoenix and replace it with a corsair. I wish they'd remove the thor and replace it with a goliath. I wish they'd remove the infestor and replace it with a defiler. I'd also like to see scourge back.
I think it would allow terrans to go full mech in TvZ. And lings would actually be useful in ZvT.
Any of the top ones added (except maybe the lurker) would absolutely break the game.
You're not taking into consideration the fact that other races would get new units as well.
Yeah, if Blizzard randomly gave Zerg lurkers in the next patch, Zerg would become ridiculous. But if Terran and Protoss got new units as well, then it should balance out.
Personally I would love to see a unit like the Goliath introduced. That or a minelayer, I'd be pretty damn happy with either of them.
On July 02 2011 20:25 koolaid1990 wrote: Zerg needs lurkers. Nuff said.
If zerg gets lurkers then they need to nerf larva injects BIG TIME... Think, if you are allowed to get invisible siege tanks to sit behind and inject to 200/200 its not gonna be a very fair game uneless terran and protoss gets some more AoE units... But Activision has a knack for ruining games... we just have to see how this pans out...
As long as P gets a new carrier i dont care what new units they add
Z needs more spell casters NOT invisible seige tanks to get to 200/200
T needs to make mech more valuable, so maybe something in that department...
T: Melee unit - can't really be the firebat because of hellions but the one thing T doesn't have is a melee unit that can take some hits
P: Reaver - I thought about this for a bit and think the only reason they wouldn't have it is because of the colossus, but I feel like P needs a harassing unit. I was thinking maybe the dark archon as well. Aside from units, maybe that recharging battery building like SC:BW. 4 gate will become stronger!! looooooooool (JUST KIDDING)
Z: Scourge - I know corruptors are good AA, I feel like it'll allow zergs to do different tech trees aside from just going muta/corruptor to take out air units. lurker: banelings kind of take their role in SC2 now, BUT I think if they make lurkers more effective vs armored units, there could be some really cool compositions vs. mech play instead of just roaches
I just realized most of the crappy units come from 1 thing... the fact that SC2 has dynamic movement. It makes shit clump and easy to kill, and there really isn't a way to stop that clumping if it's coming from a ranged shot (like siege tanks) that means either 1.) Activision needs to make the AOE units weak as hell (like siege tank [in BW 1 tank was scary as hell because it instantly killed most of the units it shot at]) or 2.) Activision gets rid of horrible unit clumping...
i really think that zerg should have anti-spell-caster unit. Some sort of infection or posion that drains energy from a unit perhaps. But can't really add it to infester, hmmm.
Tbh I think that either the thor or ravern will be changed for terran. Wouldn't it be cool if you could do a auto-turret push with terran? I that if blizz tweaked it right you could see the ravern become this supplement to the siege tank.
Seems that most people agree on Lurker and Reaver make a come back in the expansion. I agree with this too. Even to people w/o BW experiences, units like Colossus are boring and dont fit into SC style at all.
Beside from all the units, what I want is get rid of dynamic pathing, or whatever it is called. Units that stick together like they glue themselves to each other really annoy me. It also make caster with AOE very hard to balance since storm and fungal based on luck quite alot. It turns the tide of the battle too dramatically which is anti-climax in many cases.
In BW, you can see HT cast storm scatterred all over the place, now you only aim for the death ball of your opponent, if you hit, hes done, if he dodged, you are done T_T.
So for me: Protoss: Out: Colossus, In: Reaver, which Reaver in, we can see alot more Warp Prism action since they are needed to carry the slow moving reaver. Terran: Out: Thor,Marauder In: Goliah, something else Zerg: Out: Corruptor In: Scourage, Broodlord can be morphed from muta.
I wish the micro intensive aspect of the MUs were more balanced. For Terran, TvT involves tank micro, TvP involves EMPs and TvZ requires good splits, and learning to establish good dropship rythmn for all those MUs.
Protoss only need to practice Force Fields.
Zerg......Mutalisk micro? Trololo.
Maybe they will introduce more critical and micro intensive units to the other 2 races to make games exciting.
I think Vessel and Scourge would be great in this game. Think about Vessel first. Irridate would be great for harrasment (killing drones) and you would Irridate Banelings and Zealots because they are always so close to each other. This would bring some new micro to this game. Defensinve Matrix would be awesome when you just use it to a Marauder and run to Banelings and take like +10 Banelings with 1 Marauder IF the Zerg player doesn't micro his Banelings. I think it would be pretty cool.
Scourge would be fun to see vs. Colossus and ofcourse vs. Vessels if there would be Vessel. Protoss player should micro his Colossus so Scourges just don't kill it right away. It would be so much better counter to Colossus than Corruptor.
I would also like to see Spider Mines back because they are just so cool in BW. It's different style of map control. You can actually just have the map control with mines. And because again units in SC2 are always so close together, you should micro so Mines just doesn't kill everything.
And why Goliath was replaced by bigger Goliath? Cmon, the old massmaking unit was replaced by some fat unit that Blizzard wants you have only 1 or 3 in your army. Really?
Reaver would be so much cooler than Colossus and it would bring more micro in this game. PvP would be actually fun if there would be Shuttle(Warp Prism)/Reaver micro going.
If they dont remove the dynamic pathing, spider mines return will be a nightmare and will create alot of QQ. Can you imagine, a ball of unit that move into a mine field w/o detection?
On July 03 2011 15:10 Trizz wrote: I wish they'd remove phoenix and replace it with a corsair. I wish they'd remove the thor and replace it with a goliath. I wish they'd remove the infestor and replace it with a defiler. I'd also like to see scourge back.
I think it would allow terrans to go full mech in TvZ. And lings would actually be useful in ZvT.
I think the new zerg unit should be modeled after this Tarantula Hawk wasp
You can use two infestors to merge into the tarantula hawk wasp. After you kill a unit it becomes an infested version of that unit similar to an infested terran, only say if you killed a viking it would become an infested viking and die after a short period of time. It also has a lift-off mechanic like vikings because it does have wings after all just like all wasps. Blizzard im waiting for your job offer.
Hoping for brand new units with new unique abilities that may take a bit to balance, but in the end add to the overall substance of the game. I've played with reavers, lurkers and scourge for years already, let them go people. This isn't BW.
On July 03 2011 15:57 ZiegFeld wrote: I wish the micro intensive aspect of the MUs were more balanced. For Terran, TvT involves tank micro, TvP involves EMPs and TvZ requires good splits, and learning to establish good dropship rythmn for all those MUs.
Protoss only need to practice Force Fields.
Zerg......Mutalisk micro? Trololo.
Maybe they will introduce more critical and micro intensive units to the other 2 races to make games exciting.
Zerg doesn't require micro? Are. you. kidding me?
Back to the ACTUAL topic, Lurkers would be absolutely fantastic. There was a thread awhile ago regarding Zone Control, most notably how Terran is the only race that has the ability to do it (with Tanks). Whereas Protoss can warp in their army anywhere, which helps a bit, Zerg simply doesn't have the ability to make places on the map completely defensible in the ways that Terran does with Tanks. contains are absolutely brutal. It would also give Zerg the ability to decisively win battles against bio, whereas "winning" with Banelings leave something to be desired after exploding (um, your army).
I think they should make the Nydus Network salvagable; It is a WORM for christ sake, if I go do damage I should be able to retreat back through it and have it disappear for my money back. At this point, it appears way to slowly with such a huge reveal at a huge cost to use in the first place that it isn't worth useing. I'd much rather get OL speed/Drop, especially since I am gonna get drop anyway.
I don't know for Zerg and Terran, but the poll misses something regarding the Protoss units:
A unit that is fast!
As of now Protoss has no good harass, mobile, counter attack unit, but just a bunch of slow ass units that can form a deathball that rolls over anything an is imobile as hell. If there is a gap in the Protoss arsenal it is unit that is avaible before you have blink stalkers and that has a movemement speed >3.
I disagree with those people saying the Reaver or the Lurker will make it back. As Incontrol said on ItG: The Reaver would be a god unit if it made into SC2 and zerg could never win a game. While I don't mind that, Zergs do. So no reaver. I mean Toss has Colossi anyways, why the need for Reavers?
And I don't believe Zerg will get Lurkers either, maybe in the campaign, but not for multiplayers.
For Terran I could imagine that they remake the Reaper and give them a mine laying ability like the Vulture and remove the alt-attack against buildings.
wat the fack you arent supposed to list ultralisk hydralisk zergling under zerg you're supposed to put it under protoss or terran and listing hydras as ground ranged unit why wouldnt you put tier 1 ranged unit or something that isnt in every races choices in rts's
On July 03 2011 15:10 Trizz wrote: I wish they'd remove phoenix and replace it with a corsair. I wish they'd remove the thor and replace it with a goliath. I wish they'd remove the infestor and replace it with a defiler. I'd also like to see scourge back.
I think it would allow terrans to go full mech in TvZ. And lings would actually be useful in ZvT.
I find Defilers would be overpowered due to the auto-cast, how an infinite amount of Swarms and Consumes can be casted in a few seconds. Plague would also be a lot stronger than in Brood War, again due to auto cast and switching the meta-game of ZvZ to something awkward...
On July 03 2011 16:26 sup3rchan wrote: Hoping for brand new units with new unique abilities that may take a bit to balance, but in the end add to the overall substance of the game. I've played with reavers, lurkers and scourge for years already, let them go people. This isn't BW.
I actually would really like to see the terran get the diamondback. It seems like a beefier version of the stalker and I think it would complement a mech army very well.
Everyone is wondering what features and abilities these hypothetical new units will have, but my question is: what role in the metagame will they fill?
For terran, at least, the answer seems obvious. Where bio play has shown it's versatility and power time and time again, it's counterpart, mech play, has not done so well. The power of mech has dropped so much since the days of the beta that many players have written it off as a gimmick, and rightly so. However, HOTS may change that by adding a new factory unit that can fill the roles that hellions, thors, and siege tanks fail to. This unit would be what the vulture was to sc1, a mech option that could compensate for the lack of mobility and utility in mech play.
As for protoss, I think whatever unit they are getting will likely be a tier 2 unit. Right now, protoss rely almost exclusively on cheap t1 fodder like gateway units, and t3 heavy hitters like colossus and high templar. Voids, immortals, and phoenix are all used, but you never get more than a few of each unless you're doing something cheesy. This new t2 unit wouldn't require much of a tech/resource commitment (so it wouldn't slow you down the race to t3), but it would still have both harass and combat potential, kind of like a speedling. This would give protoss a safe t2 option that to boost the flexibility of their tech while at the same time boosting their paltry harassment capabilities.
However what's most exciting is the possible new unit for zerg (after all, it's the zerg expansion pack). Personally, I'm hoping for zerg to get a new late game option. Right now, zerg lategame is really awkward because they don't always have a good t3 option available to them. Bls and ultras are alright, but both have limited timing windows to operate within, and both are a huge commitment. For instance, whenever you go brood lords you are essentially fighting the clock to make something happen with them because they are so immobile and cannot last a long battle where vikings are involved. Ultralisks suffer from a similar lack of flexibility; they are good in a head-on engagement but if the opponent starts turtling or using harassment techniques to avoid direct combat, their usefulness diminishes. What would benefit zerg most is a early t3 or late t2 all purpose unit that isn't as much of a commitment as their other lategame options. This unit could come in any shape or size, it could be the lurker or something new entirely.
Of course, blizzard may spot different niches in the metagame waiting to be filled. Only time will tell what plans they have in store.
Well. Blizzard has shown that everything is up for changing. The only things sacred are marines lings and zealots. Pretty much anything can change.
Im hoping that a few units get swapped out like the mothership->arbiter/caster and the viking->goliath/valkyrie. And other units like the roach stay in singleplayer. For the love of zerg please give us a remade hydralisk. I dont care if its slow off creep just make it 1 supply and cheap.
On July 03 2011 15:33 br0fivE wrote: judging from this poll, alot of people r stuck in the past
honestly adding the "ex" to the poll kinda destroyed the quality and intentions of the thread.
Yes, maybe you are right. People get too stuck on the examples, and just think BW. Obviously any ground artillery for Protoss will be nothing like the Reaver, and a minelayer will be nothing like the Vulture. So yes, the examples were probably unnecessary. Sorry for that.
lol a reaper with mines would be pretty imba, wouldn't he ? I mean cmon they could jump in you main lay mines everywhere and then go out. Supportet by a few MnM's Terran would easily win most games after at most 10 mins.
P: new morphed outcome of high templar+dark templar T: mech ground unit that does splash to ground Z: many banelings morphing into a thor sized baneling trololo - resistant to tank fire/mech fire, good against FFs/Terran walls/and 1 shots a planetary if it can reach in time lolol too much?
I dunno because the game is still so young, I personally feel many things need to be reworked, and like somebody said --> we shouldn't be so concerned about roles, the pros will do that. But the artillery and unit stats are what are important that can add or take away from the game. 2 cents.
What about changes in upgrades? Instead of adding new units, just change some upgrades and whatnot, give some things more abilities. I think that would be cool as well.
On July 03 2011 18:37 TheAmazombie wrote: What about changes in upgrades? Instead of adding new units, just change some upgrades and whatnot, give some things more abilities. I think that would be cool as well.
So true so true. Especially Zerg upgrades lol I feel they could do a lot more and reward the zergs that invest in upgrades a lot more especially in the late stages of the game.
3-3, stim, combat shielded, medivac healed marines are pretty much lol (I play terran and it's true)
As a toss I hope that we get given a unit that is useful for harassment. That's all I can really ask for lol. Maybe replace the immortal with a better, more versatile tier 2 unit.
- Maybe merge DT with HT to create Twilight archon which has detection, and a Lifelink spell or Banish spell.
- Supporting caster for Protoss from Robo, spells: Regenerate Shields and Hardened Shields.
- Remove Spawn Infested Terran and Give infestors Infest Unit (25 Energy, 6 range, steals a Bio unit, Missile/Dodgeable). This works on Probes/Scvs, but an infested SCV can only build an infested barracks, probe: Infested Gateways. Infested Pylons/Depots spread creep. I really want zerg to be able to truly infest/corrupt things. o_o ...would be sweet.
- Corruption is AOE, Corruptors can shut down turrets/PDFs like a corsair could, but it's a channelled spell.
- Ravens should have Lockdown and be able to call down nukes as well.
I hope they rework Robotic Units for Protoss. Immortal was meant to be a Damageblocker, but he is just too slow and has to much damage output against armored units. Other than that i hope the Colossus gets replaced/nerfed and a new Robotic unit willl be added. I like the idea of the Reaver but this aint BW. Dunno exactly.
Fopr Terran I just hope Blizzard will make Mech viable. The Hightech units do less damage than tier 1 Unit (if you campare the cost), we have no option for "Groundcontrol" like Spidermines - only Planetary Fortress and building 10 of them sucks hard. And there is no ggod Antiair since they made the Goliath becoming the Viking. You have to upgrade Fac and Air to optimize your Upgraes which just makes Mech suck a lot. I dont think Reaper will get Spidermines - and if they will it will suck hard cause it actually costs you too much gas so you cant use them for Mech anyways.
For Zerg there wont be a cliffrunning unit. If so it wont be mass-able, wont be a caster and will cost too much. Just imagine Zerg having Reaper. This will be totally boring too play cause u cant place Tanks/Bunker/Cannons everywhere. New unit? maybe a new massable unit.
Other things stuff I think which will improve SC2: Resize Ultralisk+Thor(or replace thor - its horrible) A lot more Upgrades. Some Caster added Redesign Raven and his skills. not worth it if you dont Allin early vs Protoss or you need mobile detection give Zerg a tier1 antiairunit. I mean wtf is this shit? :D More Upgrades Redesign Warpprism (make it less vulnerable) make Micro more intensive for Protoss/Zerg. Watching PvZ is just boring cause there are RoachInfestor vs Deathball and noone micro at all. Terran has a lot to micro like Splitting, Kiting, Slicing etc. More Casters/units at all. Wanna have more options than 3 Fac 4 Bio and 3 Air units More Upgrades Definitly more Upgrades
More Upgrades? More Upgrades! Teching should be more effective. I dont wanna have a MassTier1vsMassTier1 game
And SC2 wont turn into BW. Dont talk about adding Lurker, Reaver+Vulture/Goliath. Its not going to happen!
edit: Hightier Units would benefit a lot more by upgrades if they would have only "1 attack". BC, Thor, Immortal suffer a lot because of this. And thats why Tier1 Units deal similar damage/more damage than hightechunits. and thats jsut the way it should be
Most ideas in this thread are so imbalanced I can't even understand what is going through the heads of the people posting this nonsense.
I do not believe adding new units is a simple task of finding "what unit type is missing" in each race, because each race has to play different and maintain a distinct feel. You can't have every single unit type for each race. Adding new possibilities whilst staying true to each race's feel is something very hard to do.
I'd love to see lurker make a come back, but I believe it doesn't really fit sc2 gameplay as it is. If it did indeed come back some tweaks would have been made.
On July 03 2011 20:05 MarKeD wrote: all this poll proves to me is that most people just want what they already know
People want what works and what is interesting and improves the game, and not some gimmicky unit that Blizzard can put into the game which either completely ruins the game or simply isn't used at all because of its gimmicky abilities being complete shit.
Can't blame people for that, don't fix what isn't broke.
On July 03 2011 15:37 mR.bONG789 wrote: im hoping protoss will get some better anti air cos stalkers dps is terrible ( 3 probes out do stalker dps vs normal....)
Actually Stalkers are OKish vs armored, but are a joke against light flyers. Phoenix are good against light, but are hard to transition to. So Protoss need something against light air (Banshees and Mutas), which is more easily massable.
On July 03 2011 15:57 ZiegFeld wrote: I wish the micro intensive aspect of the MUs were more balanced. For Terran, TvT involves tank micro, TvP involves EMPs and TvZ requires good splits, and learning to establish good dropship rythmn for all those MUs.
Protoss only need to practice Force Fields.
Zerg......Mutalisk micro? Trololo.
Maybe they will introduce more critical and micro intensive units to the other 2 races to make games exciting.
Yeah, right. How about making sure that your Zealots are in front, spreading Sentries and HTs to prevent them being made useless by 1 EMP. Blink.
On July 03 2011 20:05 MarKeD wrote: all this poll proves to me is that most people just want what they already know
People want what works and what is interesting and improves the game, and not some gimmicky unit that Blizzard can put into the game which either completely ruins the game or simply isn't used at all because of its gimmicky abilities being complete shit.
Can't blame people for that, don't fix what isn't broke.
If that's how you think why arent you still playing broodwar? This is a new game what applies in broodwar does not necessarily apply to starcraft 2.
I would really really like to see done to hydras. Also it'd be cool to add functionality to ultralisks. It'd be nice if ultras can load 4 banes and splash the area when the ultra dies!
On July 03 2011 16:11 Caphe wrote: If they dont remove the dynamic pathing, spider mines return will be a nightmare and will create alot of QQ. Can you imagine, a ball of unit that move into a mine field w/o detection?
On July 03 2011 16:11 Caphe wrote: If they dont remove the dynamic pathing, spider mines return will be a nightmare and will create alot of QQ. Can you imagine, a ball of unit that move into a mine field w/o detection?
I don't think zerg will get a map controlling unit because zerg is supposed to be the race that is everywhere at once. I think it would make more sense to make a faster but cheaper and weaker hydra-like unit. Or maybe just make change the hydra to be like that.
Protoss: I actually don't believe there will be an artillery unit considering the collossus. IF theres going to be only one unit its probably gonna be a healer/shield restorer OR a good harrasment unit like the reaper. Both of those would extend the protoss play in fields where it is lacking something.
Zerg: The lurker is very plausible, cause Zerg isnt played like Blizzard intended it to be. The lurker would fit very well into the makro-race zerg has become because of its high potential in defence and mapcontrol. Additionally I think Blizzard will change the static defences of zerg by eather making the Spinecrawler cheaper but weaker and faster building or adding sth. like the sunken colony.
Terran:: I really cant think of a field where Terran is lacking anything, so I just say a meelee unit sounds plausible.
On July 03 2011 22:26 EnWara wrote: I don't think zerg will get a map controlling unit because zerg is supposed to be the race that is everywhere at once. I think it would make more sense to make a faster but cheaper and weaker hydra-like unit. Or maybe just make change the hydra to be like that.
I agree that Zerg was planned to be like that, but i really don't think Bizzard will push Zerg in that direction since its played so differently right now. I rather believe they let it be a makro-race and expand these qualities.
I wonder if Blizzard will take their evolution idea from HotS campaign and apply it to multiplayer, but in a different manner. Let's say we have each basic unit come in three flavours, one default one and two as an adaptation morph. These morphs would not cause the unit to be stronger, like having Banelings split into smaller ones on impact, but rather they would repurpose a unit.
Let's take Zerglings as an example. The basic Zergling is a fast, cheap and plentiful melee attack unit, but what if you could adapt it into a ranged ground-to-air unit with a radius smaller than that of a marine, since Zerglings are quite fast, and with a weaker melee attack? Or maybe have Zerglings with a normal melee attack, but also give them the ability to claw at enemies from underground. They could use burrow movement to close the distance and then swipe at the opponent's feet and/or tracks.
The adaptation morph would be available within the Evolution Chamber, but there would be different requirements for each such morph. You would be able to adapt your units as many times as you wish, though there would be a 10 minute cooldown so that Zerg are stuck with their choices for a while. Also, each such morph would send all units into a 10 second period of morphing, so that the Zerg doesn't suddenly shift their weaknesses mid-battle.
On July 03 2011 16:11 Caphe wrote: If they dont remove the dynamic pathing, spider mines return will be a nightmare and will create alot of QQ. Can you imagine, a ball of unit that move into a mine field w/o detection?
Naah, aren't Banelings just like that? : D
Hmm Walking Spider mines.
Walking expensive slow spider mines which you have to manually trigger to be of any use.
On July 03 2011 00:52 Stress wrote: Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
No, the Colossus is the most bland unit of all. It was voted so already in previous threads. It's boring, requires no micro, and is far too good considering that. It was a mistake replacing the Reaver with such garbage.
You gotta be f**king kidding me. Play toss then speak.
It seems like everyone just want to have another broodwar. I didn't play broodwar, but i will admit that the current game feels a lot like building a bunch of units and clashing them into each other and see the outcome, with some fiffling to it with attacks in multiple places and some harassment. Too many armies can just A move, though still there is quite some micro involved. I'd say it would be nice to see something that Terran would find interesting to use in PvT for example, that isnt just marine marauder stim attack, because that was one of the first things in this game i found way too silly. (Yeah this is starting to sound like a whining post for the current game). Stim, A move with MM and kite is just way too easy compared to placing forcefields correctly etc.
So my wish for HoTS would be more micro intensive gameplay and some NEW interesting units, and not another broodwar, but something that would be as epic, in a different way.
I think that there's actually still room for the Medic to return. Medivac is great, but having Medics would add an extra layer of depth to early game for Terran.
Really need to remove these lame expensive high supply units that end up making armies look so tiny and macro way easier than it should be. Its so easy to keep your resources down when you are making Thors, Colossus, Immortals and you hit 200/200 so fast. It also completely screws up late game. The only race that should have those types of units is Protoss (but it is still excessive even for protoss)
Roaches, Hydras, Ultralisks, Tanks, Banshees, Thors, Colossus, Marauders, should all take up less supply or go back to their BW supply/cost.
The carrier was 6 supply but it could have 8 interceptors and you needed retarded amounts of 3/3 goliaths to take em down. The thor/colossus/ultralisk isn't even that good for its supply count.
On July 04 2011 08:28 Thorn Raven wrote: I think that there's actually still room for the Medic to return. Medivac is great, but having Medics would add an extra layer of depth to early game for Terran.
Yeah I think the medivac was the worst replacement for the medic. Seeing a cloud of medivacs hovering over an army, and mass elevators, just looks so ridiculous. When Flash did elevators it was awesome, in SC2 its like, meh.
Artosis once said SC2 was made for Boxer, well I guess he completely forgot how good Boxer was with medics. I could not imagine how much better Nada would be if medics were in the game.
On July 02 2011 20:14 TanX wrote: Protoss: Air caster I think, it seems like they have everything else covered.
Zerg: Siege unit for sure, the lurker. Zerg needs a unit to gain map control and hinder enemy balls rushing into your base before you have defences up.
Terran: Much like Protoss they have a nice array of units, but I'm thinking either an air caster unit or a melee infantry unit (firebat).
Hopefully we'll overall see some new upgrades as well and more than 1 unit each race.
EDIT: People who vote that Protoss needs a siege unit must be trolling, considering the Colossus.
Or they understand that the Colossus is a very uninteresting unit and should be replaced, whether by something new or the reaver.
Wow. Every page I have looked on has several people saying, "Terran doesn't need anything, they're complete." However, the current state of the game reveals otherwise
Terran needs something lategame, whether it's a new unit or a reworking of the raven, battlecruiser or thor, because right now Terran is too dependent on risky harrass tactics and 1 or 2 base plays. I don't like doing a 2-base timing push every game but the fact of the matter is I always get smashed if I let the game get into a 4 base v 4 base situation vs. Zerg or Protoss. Terran needs something better to go for in macro games.
Right now Zerg seems the most complete, their strategies are pretty well mapped out and almost all of their units have roles, but it's the Zerg expansion so obviously something will change.
Protoss air seems kinda underused right now except in specific circumstances. Maybe that oughta change.
Also whats kind of interesting is that none of the races really feel right and is expressed in the poll.
Terran players want things that lock down an area and blow up everything, hence their desire to play mech with tanks, goliaths, vultures and spidermines. MMM doesn't feel like Terran at all, it feels like a weird combination of Protoss and Zerg.
Tanks and Vultures kill so much stuff so quickly, however they are also really really hard to control, you always have to be "positioned" to output maximum damage. Terrans love this, controlling territory and saying "you may not pass". Very Terran'y, this was how Terran was originally designed. Flash is the personification of this, locking down his 3 early bases and then pushing out and simultaneously blowing up 7 of Kal's bases.
Protoss players want things that allow you to be cunning/unexpected in battle, there is a reason Protoss was the most hated race by Idra/Artosis, even Idra tohught Protoss wasn't "as bad" as it was in BW. Even Boxers first race was Protoss. Stork is the personification of this, extremely low apm, and using his superior unit control and trickery to take down his opponents. A lot of PvT involves catching Terran off-guard.
Sniping your first tank and dealing with repairing your bunker for another hour, flanking your unsieged tanks and areas you forgot to mine, map hacks with observers, a reaver that kills everything and can't die, speedlots dragging mines into your own army, freezing your army and recalling the army somewhere else, cloaked units, tech switch to 4 stargate carriers, making their own siege tanks and recalling them into your base.
Overall just being really fucking annoying. A lot of Terran losses are because of "wtf is this shit?!" moments when Toss just comes out of the blue with a huge army and a ton of storms/stasis.
Zerg in SC2 is completely the opposite of what it should be in Starcraft. Zerg was never a "sit back and macro" race, its like the gameplay of Terran only you can't defend, its a bit ridiculous. Zerg was a hyper aggressive race where you make tonnes of units and attack and kill everything at any stage in the game. Jaedong is the personification of this, his rage-mode glare, he never thinks twice about anything, if he sees any vulnerability he will destroy you without mercy. Most all-in players like July, Shine and Kwanro played Zerg, and for a good reason.
All zerg units were overpowered for their cost, mass hydra would cost-efficiently kill anything except against spell-casters or siege units, Lurkers were invisible and killed everything on the ground, lings could cost-efficiently kill anything at most stages of the game, scourge are air-banelings that did 110 damage, ultralisks were 200 minerals and gas and only 4 supply and were not rendered useless by marauders, defilers rendered any range unit practically useless and made a large area of units down to 1 health and had infinite energy.
The creep mechanic is the only thing I like about Zerg right now, spawn larvae and a harder to use and slower nydus means that Zerg never makes a ton of bases all over the map, seeing sauron zerg off 3 bases is not that interesting, but it also means Zerg can't be zergy at all or it would be imbalanced.
I would be happy if they just added an ability to a few of the Terran units. Reapers or Helions with mines? Yes please! Either that or give us a mech unit that is good against air!
On July 04 2011 09:08 IamTheArchitect wrote: Wow. Every page I have looked on has several people saying, "Terran doesn't need anything, they're complete." However, the current state of the game reveals otherwise
Terran needs something lategame, whether it's a new unit or a reworking of the raven, battlecruiser or thor, because right now Terran is too dependent on risky harrass tactics and 1 or 2 base plays. I don't like doing a 2-base timing push every game but the fact of the matter is I always get smashed if I let the game get into a 4 base v 4 base situation vs. Zerg or Protoss. Terran needs something better to go for in macro games.
Right now Zerg seems the most complete, their strategies are pretty well mapped out and almost all of their units have roles, but it's the Zerg expansion so obviously something will change.
Protoss air seems kinda underused right now except in specific circumstances. Maybe that oughta change.
These pools seem to indicate what BW unit people want in SC2 rather than what the races currently lack. There isn't going to be a reaver in HotS, toss robo is already the best tech path as is. I'd really like to see air tech improved though. Either that or add something for better toss AA.
On July 03 2011 00:52 Stress wrote: Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
No, the Colossus is the most bland unit of all. It was voted so already in previous threads. It's boring, requires no micro, and is far too good considering that. It was a mistake replacing the Reaver with such garbage.
You gotta be f**king kidding me. Play toss then speak.
It seems like everyone just want to have another broodwar. I didn't play broodwar, but i will admit that the current game feels a lot like building a bunch of units and clashing them into each other and see the outcome, with some fiffling to it with attacks in multiple places and some harassment. Too many armies can just A move, though still there is quite some micro involved. I'd say it would be nice to see something that Terran would find interesting to use in PvT for example, that isnt just marine marauder stim attack, because that was one of the first things in this game i found way too silly. (Yeah this is starting to sound like a whining post for the current game). Stim, A move with MM and kite is just way too easy compared to placing forcefields correctly etc.
So my wish for HoTS would be more micro intensive gameplay and some NEW interesting units, and not another broodwar, but something that would be as epic, in a different way.
I think you just inadvertently agreed with this guy. he said that the colossus requires little micro, which you disagreed with and then talk about how this game is just a-moving into a clash. that's the part that makes colossus boring, even though their concept seems interesting. maybe give them a charge-up attack like the voidray, except they can't be moving to charge?
in any case as a zerg player, i would like to see the tiers of the hydra and the roach swapped (nerfed and buffed accordingly) and something in hive tech that hits air. i think that people are putting too much value in a zerg siege unit because of the trouble that tanks and colossi give them, but making the roach a real tanking unit and making hydras a little more disposable would mitigate a lot of the damage those units cause. something to help early-game scouting would be awesome as well, maybe like the owl that the PotM in WC3 could fire out to gain intel could be a spell the queen could cast. you would sacrifice a larva spit or creep tumor to scout your enemy, seems like a fair trade (ie. scans over mules).
terran could really use the predator as a playable unit to tank some front-line damage and could probably do without hunter-seeker missile. maybe change it into some kind of temporary stationary detector (kind of like the auto-turret, except it doesn't attack) or a turret that slows units within it's radius.
protoss could really use some viable anti-air, so maybe a robo unit that is strickly AA and can attack one unit with one powerful attack or multiple units at once with a weaker attack that you could toggle. or give this ability to the immortal and make it stronger (which i think it needs) and cost more. also, rework the carrier. it makes me so sad that the ship that took out the overmind, once a fucking robotic beehive that shoots rabid hornets at their enemies has devolved into a floating hunk of meat that has these little flies looping around it that can be swatted down because they're just more annoying than anything.
I play toss. Toss needs another caster, most likely flying (i.e. Arbiter).
Don't think toss really needs a harrass unit tbh. DTs are pretty sweet harrass units, obviously can be countered with turrets/spores but all other harrass units can be countered with static D as well.
Colossus nerf would be welcome, I hate how toss can only survive with colossus early-mid game. I'd love to see perhaps make thermal lance an upgrade that has a cooldown, and temporarily immbolizes the collossus to get the extended range.
HT needs another spell, perhaps something to immobilize like stasis. Archons still need a slight buff imo.
Marauder or medivac needs a nerf, it's sad and boring how quickly mass MMM demolish a toss gateway army. Toss gateway units are susposed to be the strongest of all 3 T1-1.5 units, yet they quickly become nothing more than tanks/protection/support for collossus.
I'd like to see concussive nerfed, maybe give it a cooldown like charge.
Phoenix are too fragile.
I think the big problem with all three races is the T3 tech, too many T3 units aren't worth making, ultras, carriers, BCs etc. Mothership is a complete joke of a unit, should be removed.
I'd like to see the gap between T1 and T2 made bigger, so 1 base plays aren't as strong.
On July 03 2011 00:52 Stress wrote: Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
No, the Colossus is the most bland unit of all. It was voted so already in previous threads. It's boring, requires no micro, and is far too good considering that. It was a mistake replacing the Reaver with such garbage.
You gotta be f**king kidding me. Play toss then speak.
It seems like everyone just want to have another broodwar. I didn't play broodwar, but i will admit that the current game feels a lot like building a bunch of units and clashing them into each other and see the outcome, with some fiffling to it with attacks in multiple places and some harassment. Too many armies can just A move, though still there is quite some micro involved. I'd say it would be nice to see something that Terran would find interesting to use in PvT for example, that isnt just marine marauder stim attack, because that was one of the first things in this game i found way too silly. (Yeah this is starting to sound like a whining post for the current game). Stim, A move with MM and kite is just way too easy compared to placing forcefields correctly etc.
So my wish for HoTS would be more micro intensive gameplay and some NEW interesting units, and not another broodwar, but something that would be as epic, in a different way.
I think you just inadvertently agreed with this guy. he said that the colossus requires little micro, which you disagreed with and then talk about how this game is just a-moving into a clash. that's the part that makes colossus boring, even though their concept seems interesting. maybe give them a charge-up attack like the voidray, except they can't be moving to charge?
in any case as a zerg player, i would like to see the tiers of the hydra and the roach swapped (nerfed and buffed accordingly) and something in hive tech that hits air. i think that people are putting too much value in a zerg siege unit because of the trouble that tanks and colossi give them, but making the roach a real tanking unit and making hydras a little more disposable would mitigate a lot of the damage those units cause. something to help early-game scouting would be awesome as well, maybe like the owl that the PotM in WC3 could fire out to gain intel could be a spell the queen could cast. you would sacrifice a larva spit or creep tumor to scout your enemy, seems like a fair trade (ie. scans over mules).
terran could really use the predator as a playable unit to tank some front-line damage and could probably do without hunter-seeker missile. maybe change it into some kind of temporary stationary detector (kind of like the auto-turret, except it doesn't attack) or a turret that slows units within it's radius.
protoss could really use some viable anti-air, so maybe a robo unit that is strickly AA and can attack one unit with one powerful attack or multiple units at once with a weaker attack that you could toggle. or give this ability to the immortal and make it stronger (which i think it needs) and cost more. also, rework the carrier. it makes me so sad that the ship that took out the overmind, once a fucking robotic beehive that shoots rabid hornets at their enemies has devolved into a floating hunk of meat that has these little flies looping around it that can be swatted down because they're just more annoying than anything.
The problem with "tanking" units is they add nothing to the game, they are boring a-move units. Dragoons were really the only unit like this, but thats ok because it fitted the theme of protoss, blue goo, and the dynamics of the other races like spider-mines and dark swarm made it interesting. Lurkers are much more useful against the protoss deathball than Roaches. Isn't it funny how the roach is such a powerful unit yet somehow sucks in so many situations, it simply doesn't synergise well with zerg because it is basically a dragoon. They also had to give Terran a dragoon with stim to counter this zerg dragoon because of how powerful it is against marines, but now that's too strong against protoss, so protoss gets a dragoon that tanks more damage and deals 60 damage to armored. Stupid.
The only thing that would balance PvZ late game is scourge and lurkers, any ranged unit that tanks damage is useless against colossus and void-rays because of splash and charge-up. Lurkers will clean up the protoss army before it can do enough damage with its deathball, this means toss can't move around the map with this huge ball of death, and instead has to play harass and multi-pronged attacks.
The biggest problem with AA units in SC2 is that they are on the ground. Marines, Thors, Stalkers, etc. The phoenix is really bad at AA until you have a TON of them because they don't have splash and mutas scale in damage. Often the zerg response to seeing 1 stargate protoss, is to MAKE MORE MUTAS. Protoss and Terran really need an AA only splash Air-Unit, 12 mutas are ok, but seeing 100 mutas fly around the map is both really annoying and boring to watch.
Also seeing a dedicated AA 9 range air unit (the viking) get cleaned up by mutas is really stupid, at least wraiths with less damage and range were viable against every air unit, including scourge and mutalisks, they were even viable against hydras. 2 starport wraith is one of the funnest and most interesting builds to play and watch, fast reactor startport? pffft. The viking is only useful against a small number of units.
Just to save me some time, of everyone who has stated that there is one type of unit each race DEFINITELY needs/doesn't need, which one of you is correct?
On July 03 2011 00:52 Stress wrote: Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
No, the Colossus is the most bland unit of all. It was voted so already in previous threads. It's boring, requires no micro, and is far too good considering that. It was a mistake replacing the Reaver with such garbage.
You gotta be f**king kidding me. Play toss then speak.
It seems like everyone just want to have another broodwar. I didn't play broodwar, but i will admit that the current game feels a lot like building a bunch of units and clashing them into each other and see the outcome, with some fiffling to it with attacks in multiple places and some harassment. Too many armies can just A move, though still there is quite some micro involved. I'd say it would be nice to see something that Terran would find interesting to use in PvT for example, that isnt just marine marauder stim attack, because that was one of the first things in this game i found way too silly. (Yeah this is starting to sound like a whining post for the current game). Stim, A move with MM and kite is just way too easy compared to placing forcefields correctly etc.
So my wish for HoTS would be more micro intensive gameplay and some NEW interesting units, and not another broodwar, but something that would be as epic, in a different way.
I think you just inadvertently agreed with this guy. he said that the colossus requires little micro, which you disagreed with and then talk about how this game is just a-moving into a clash. that's the part that makes colossus boring, even though their concept seems interesting. maybe give them a charge-up attack like the voidray, except they can't be moving to charge?
in any case as a zerg player, i would like to see the tiers of the hydra and the roach swapped (nerfed and buffed accordingly) and something in hive tech that hits air. i think that people are putting too much value in a zerg siege unit because of the trouble that tanks and colossi give them, but making the roach a real tanking unit and making hydras a little more disposable would mitigate a lot of the damage those units cause. something to help early-game scouting would be awesome as well, maybe like the owl that the PotM in WC3 could fire out to gain intel could be a spell the queen could cast. you would sacrifice a larva spit or creep tumor to scout your enemy, seems like a fair trade (ie. scans over mules).
terran could really use the predator as a playable unit to tank some front-line damage and could probably do without hunter-seeker missile. maybe change it into some kind of temporary stationary detector (kind of like the auto-turret, except it doesn't attack) or a turret that slows units within it's radius.
protoss could really use some viable anti-air, so maybe a robo unit that is strickly AA and can attack one unit with one powerful attack or multiple units at once with a weaker attack that you could toggle. or give this ability to the immortal and make it stronger (which i think it needs) and cost more. also, rework the carrier. it makes me so sad that the ship that took out the overmind, once a fucking robotic beehive that shoots rabid hornets at their enemies has devolved into a floating hunk of meat that has these little flies looping around it that can be swatted down because they're just more annoying than anything.
The problem with "tanking" units is they add nothing to the game, they are boring a-move units. Dragoons were really the only unit like this, but thats ok because it fitted the theme of protoss, blue goo, and the dynamics of the other races like spider-mines and dark swarm made it interesting. Lurkers are much more useful against the protoss deathball than Roaches. Isn't it funny how the roach is such a powerful unit yet somehow sucks in so many situations, it simply doesn't synergise well with zerg because it is basically a dragoon. So then they gave Terran a dragoon with stim to counter this zerg dragoon, but now that's too strong against protoss, so protoss gets a dragoon that tanks more damage and deals 60 damage to armored. Stupid.
The only thing that would balance PvZ late game is scourge and lurkers, any ranged unit that tanks damage is useless against colossus and void-rays because of splash and charge-up. Lurkers will clean up the protoss army before it can do enough damage with its deathball, this means toss can't move around the map with this huge ball of death, and instead has to play harass and multi-pronged attacks.
The biggest problem with AA units in SC2 is that they are on the ground. Marines, Thors, Stalkers, etc. The phoenix is really bad at AA until you have a TON of them because they don't have splash and mutas scale in damage. Protoss and Terran really need an AA only Air-Unit, 12 mutas are ok, but seeing 100 mutas fly around the map is both really annoying and boring to watch.
i agree with your statement about the roach not feeling very "zerg-y", but i would venture to say that zerg is played differently in SC2 than it is in BW. blizzard seems to have focused more on the macro abilities instead of zerg being "reactive". i think the roach's current abilities combined with more life/damage would definitely give it lurker-like stopping ability. imagine a control group of roaches sitting for an ambush, except if you get detected, you could just move away while burrowed. i dunno, maybe give them a splash attack to make them more effective but make them cost more food? i feel like the roach is such an interesting unit but seems to be lacking a niche. don't get me wrong - i miss the lurker too, but they had them in the alpha and took them out because of the way they played out. that had to be for a reason, right?
protoss has phoenixes, which anyone knows rule against mutas and banshees. if carriers were a more viable option like i think should happen, maybe people would be more apt to go stargate tech making phoenixes much easier to get?
i agree that terran could use a flying AA unit completely, though. just make the missile turrets weaker or mutas will be useless against terran.
On July 04 2011 12:13 L3gendary wrote: I was going to make a long post but then I realized I just want them to remove most of the new sc2 units and replace them with their bw counter parts.
You should probably just go play brood war then if you can't handle a new game lol
On July 04 2011 12:13 L3gendary wrote: I was going to make a long post but then I realized I just want them to remove most of the new sc2 units and replace them with their bw counter parts.
You should probably just go play brood war then if you can't handle a new game lol
Or play SC2:BW (awesome mod). If you get a good game, submit it to Day[9] quickly!
On July 03 2011 00:52 Stress wrote: Honestly, why do so many people hate on the Collosus? I think it is one of the coolest units in the game. If most of you had this game it would be extremely bland...
No, the Colossus is the most bland unit of all. It was voted so already in previous threads. It's boring, requires no micro, and is far too good considering that. It was a mistake replacing the Reaver with such garbage.
You gotta be f**king kidding me. Play toss then speak.
It seems like everyone just want to have another broodwar. I didn't play broodwar, but i will admit that the current game feels a lot like building a bunch of units and clashing them into each other and see the outcome, with some fiffling to it with attacks in multiple places and some harassment. Too many armies can just A move, though still there is quite some micro involved. I'd say it would be nice to see something that Terran would find interesting to use in PvT for example, that isnt just marine marauder stim attack, because that was one of the first things in this game i found way too silly. (Yeah this is starting to sound like a whining post for the current game). Stim, A move with MM and kite is just way too easy compared to placing forcefields correctly etc.
So my wish for HoTS would be more micro intensive gameplay and some NEW interesting units, and not another broodwar, but something that would be as epic, in a different way.
I think you just inadvertently agreed with this guy. he said that the colossus requires little micro, which you disagreed with and then talk about how this game is just a-moving into a clash. that's the part that makes colossus boring, even though their concept seems interesting. maybe give them a charge-up attack like the voidray, except they can't be moving to charge?
in any case as a zerg player, i would like to see the tiers of the hydra and the roach swapped (nerfed and buffed accordingly) and something in hive tech that hits air. i think that people are putting too much value in a zerg siege unit because of the trouble that tanks and colossi give them, but making the roach a real tanking unit and making hydras a little more disposable would mitigate a lot of the damage those units cause. something to help early-game scouting would be awesome as well, maybe like the owl that the PotM in WC3 could fire out to gain intel could be a spell the queen could cast. you would sacrifice a larva spit or creep tumor to scout your enemy, seems like a fair trade (ie. scans over mules).
terran could really use the predator as a playable unit to tank some front-line damage and could probably do without hunter-seeker missile. maybe change it into some kind of temporary stationary detector (kind of like the auto-turret, except it doesn't attack) or a turret that slows units within it's radius.
protoss could really use some viable anti-air, so maybe a robo unit that is strickly AA and can attack one unit with one powerful attack or multiple units at once with a weaker attack that you could toggle. or give this ability to the immortal and make it stronger (which i think it needs) and cost more. also, rework the carrier. it makes me so sad that the ship that took out the overmind, once a fucking robotic beehive that shoots rabid hornets at their enemies has devolved into a floating hunk of meat that has these little flies looping around it that can be swatted down because they're just more annoying than anything.
The problem with "tanking" units is they add nothing to the game, they are boring a-move units. Dragoons were really the only unit like this, but thats ok because it fitted the theme of protoss, blue goo, and the dynamics of the other races like spider-mines and dark swarm made it interesting. Lurkers are much more useful against the protoss deathball than Roaches. Isn't it funny how the roach is such a powerful unit yet somehow sucks in so many situations, it simply doesn't synergise well with zerg because it is basically a dragoon. So then they gave Terran a dragoon with stim to counter this zerg dragoon, but now that's too strong against protoss, so protoss gets a dragoon that tanks more damage and deals 60 damage to armored. Stupid.
The only thing that would balance PvZ late game is scourge and lurkers, any ranged unit that tanks damage is useless against colossus and void-rays because of splash and charge-up. Lurkers will clean up the protoss army before it can do enough damage with its deathball, this means toss can't move around the map with this huge ball of death, and instead has to play harass and multi-pronged attacks.
The biggest problem with AA units in SC2 is that they are on the ground. Marines, Thors, Stalkers, etc. The phoenix is really bad at AA until you have a TON of them because they don't have splash and mutas scale in damage. Protoss and Terran really need an AA only Air-Unit, 12 mutas are ok, but seeing 100 mutas fly around the map is both really annoying and boring to watch.
i agree with your statement about the roach not feeling very "zerg-y", but i would venture to say that zerg is played differently in SC2 than it is in BW. blizzard seems to have focused more on the macro abilities instead of zerg being "reactive". i think the roach's current abilities combined with more life/damage would definitely give it lurker-like stopping ability. imagine a control group of roaches sitting for an ambush, except if you get detected, you could just move away while burrowed. i dunno, maybe give them a splash attack to make them more effective but make them cost more food? i feel like the roach is such an interesting unit but seems to be lacking a niche. don't get me wrong - i miss the lurker too, but they had them in the alpha and took them out because of the way they played out. that had to be for a reason, right?
protoss has phoenixes, which anyone knows rule against mutas and banshees. if carriers were a more viable option like i think should happen, maybe people would be more apt to go stargate tech making phoenixes much easier to get?
i agree that terran could use a flying AA unit completely, though. just make the missile turrets weaker or mutas will be useless against terran.
The problem is what to do with Colossus. If the Colossus stays Zerg will continue to have problems. Sure the game is balanced, but in a sucky kind of way.
The roach is interesting but it needs to be overhauled to not be a tanking unit. Maybe have no armor, and 80 hp, and make it cheaper, make it a melee unit, and give it higher damage (keep its slow fire rate, it allows micro). And make its burrow speed as fast as its on ground speed. Then they can be used to burrow underneath marines and trap them, to give time for lurkers/banelings to set up and do tonnes of damage.
The lurker was removed due to it not being useful in in-house testing. The reason is that they wanted the lurker to always be a tier higher than the hydra, which meant lurker would be hive tech, which would make it useless. I dunno why then, the lurker can't evolve from the roach, since it makes more sense.
I'd say the problem was marauders, thors and immortals killed them way too easily, coupled with 90% of the blizzard testers not knowing how to use them properly. I found Lurkers needed a bit more health and double damage to armored to make them as useful in SC2 (or blizzard just gets rid of those boring "tanking" a-move units) but they were still way better than banelings because they don't die on use and have more utility. I think both banelings and lurkers can co-exist in SC2 however, banelings are much better against buildings as well as baneling drops.
On July 04 2011 09:34 sluggaslamoo wrote: Also whats kind of interesting is that none of the races really feel right and is expressed in the poll.
Terran players want things that lock down an area and blow up everything, hence their desire to play mech with tanks, goliaths, vultures and spidermines. MMM doesn't feel like Terran at all, it feels like a weird combination of Protoss and Zerg.
Tanks and Vultures kill so much stuff so quickly, however they are also really really hard to control, you always have to be "positioned" to output maximum damage. Terrans love this, controlling territory and saying "you may not pass". Very Terran'y, this was how Terran was originally designed. Flash is the personification of this, locking down his 3 early bases and then pushing out and simultaneously blowing up 7 of Kal's bases.
Protoss players want things that allow you to be cunning/unexpected in battle, there is a reason Protoss was the most hated race by Idra/Artosis, even Idra tohught Protoss wasn't "as bad" as it was in BW. Even Boxers first race was Protoss. Stork is the personification of this, extremely low apm, and using his superior unit control and trickery to take down his opponents. A lot of PvT involves catching Terran off-guard.
Sniping your first tank and dealing with repairing your bunker for another hour, flanking your unsieged tanks and areas you forgot to mine, map hacks with observers, a reaver that kills everything and can't die, speedlots dragging mines into your own army, freezing your army and recalling the army somewhere else, cloaked units, tech switch to 4 stargate carriers, making their own siege tanks and recalling them into your base.
Overall just being really fucking annoying. A lot of Terran losses are because of "wtf is this shit?!" moments when Toss just comes out of the blue with a huge army and a ton of storms/stasis.
Zerg in SC2 is completely the opposite of what it should be in Starcraft. Zerg was never a "sit back and macro" race, its like the gameplay of Terran only you can't defend, its a bit ridiculous. Zerg was a hyper aggressive race where you make tonnes of units and attack and kill everything at any stage in the game. Jaedong is the personification of this, his rage-mode glare, he never thinks twice about anything, if he sees any vulnerability he will destroy you without mercy. Most all-in players like July, Shine and Kwanro played Zerg, and for a good reason.
All zerg units were overpowered for their cost, mass hydra would cost-efficiently kill anything except against spell-casters or siege units, Lurkers were invisible and killed everything on the ground, lings could cost-efficiently kill anything at most stages of the game, scourge are air-banelings that did 110 damage, ultralisks were 200 minerals and gas and only 4 supply and were not rendered useless by marauders, defilers rendered any range unit practically useless and made a large area of units down to 1 health and had infinite energy.
The creep mechanic is the only thing I like about Zerg right now, spawn larvae and a harder to use and slower nydus means that Zerg never makes a ton of bases all over the map, seeing sauron zerg off 3 bases is not that interesting, but it also means Zerg can't be zergy at all or it would be imbalanced.
On July 04 2011 12:13 L3gendary wrote: I was going to make a long post but then I realized I just want them to remove most of the new sc2 units and replace them with their bw counter parts.
You should probably just go play brood war then if you can't handle a new game lol
Not sure what it has to do with the difficulty...sc2 is easier than bw. I just think some of the units are less interesting. Like colo vs reaver, helion vs vulture, mothership vs arbiter, corrupter vs scourge, roach/bane vs lurker (ok banelings are fun but mostly when they're burrowed or dropped).
On July 04 2011 12:13 L3gendary wrote: I was going to make a long post but then I realized I just want them to remove most of the new sc2 units and replace them with their bw counter parts.
You should probably just go play brood war then if you can't handle a new game lol
Not sure what it has to do with the difficulty...sc2 is easier than bw. I just think some of the units are less interesting. Like colo vs reaver, helion vs vulture, mothership vs arbiter, corrupter vs scourge, roach/bane vs lurker (ok banelings are fun but mostly when they're burrowed or dropped).
It's really funny. The things that each race is lacking in were filled by unique and interesting units in SCBW (vulture, lurker, reaver). Blizzards exclusion of these units made these problems apparent.
However, at this point in time, they aren't going to retrace their steps and put these units into the expansion. Seems like they have a lot of work ahead of them.
On July 04 2011 12:13 L3gendary wrote: I was going to make a long post but then I realized I just want them to remove most of the new sc2 units and replace them with their bw counter parts.
You should probably just go play brood war then if you can't handle a new game lol
Not sure what it has to do with the difficulty...sc2 is easier than bw. I just think some of the units are less interesting. Like colo vs reaver, helion vs vulture, mothership vs arbiter, corrupter vs scourge, roach/bane vs lurker (ok banelings are fun but mostly when they're burrowed or dropped).
Maybe you should read the post I quoted, then
Maybe you should read your own post, where you said I didn't like the new units because I couldn't "handle" the new game, which is ironic since I started playing starcraft with sc2. I don't have a problem with other new units like the reaper, stalker, sentry, queen etc. And units aren't the only important thing in a game.
I'd love to see Reavers (and Shuttles) making a reappearence, but I somewhat doubt that will happen unless they remove the Collosus, and I don't see that happening. I think its more likely that the Immortal will be removed. I'd like to see the Mothership removed in favour of bringing back Arbiters, and I think VoidRays and Carriers roles overlap too much, but I don't really anticipate any changes there.
For Zerg I think Ultras could be cut, altho I'd be sad too see such an iconic unit go the way of the Dragoons. They mentioned Overseers would probably be seeing the chopping board, so I expect a new flying/detector unit. I don't think we'll see Lurkers/Defilers while Banelings still exist. As a Zerg player what I'd really like to see is the Roach gone and Hydra to actually be useful again. I've no idea how to balance that, i'm just not a fan of Roach. I'd also like melee units not to get completely eclipsed by ranged deathballs in lategame. Dark Swarm did that wonderfully in BW, but that spell would obviously be way too strong in combination with Banes and Fungal. Basically I don't like the way lategame Zerg plays out. Camping under Broodlords with Infestors/Hydras/Roaches doesn't feel like Zerg, it feels like Terran.
Reapers could prolly go. They seem pretty one dimensional as a pure scout/harass unit, and its not as if Terran is lacking in ways to harass, and they all offer more to a army composition than Reapers. I don't like Thors much either, it just seems like a way cheap way to cover yourself from muta harass, and I don't think T would suffer against mass balls of mutas without them. Its hard to see what Terran is lacking. They seem like a very well rounded race in general.
I think mostly I'd like to see each race play more similar to how they handled in BW.
After playing the WoL campaign these holidays, I get the impression that Blizzard has many unit designs floating around and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some of those campaign units modified and inserted into HoTS. I would like to see more old school starcraft units, bring back some of the old days, and I particularly like the idea for the lurker and vulture, those things are essential starcraft units!
Sounds like slot of people ITT would like HOTS to be broodwar in a new box ;-) When I first played sc2 I felt it was too similar to broodwar to even warrant a full 2 more like a 1.4. So I'm kinda confounded by everybody bitching about how broodwar was better, it was more or less the same except now graphics are prettier (and slower they should have kept the graphics engine since the only time you zoom is when you're trying to ship resources and to only time you rotate is when you press the wrong key).
Flame away senior citizens also please tell me how milk was cheaper when you were young and how far you had to walk to school ;-)
Honestly a siege type of unit for Zerg would be nice, it does feel at times that we're a little incapable of attacking bases unless we have a massive numerical advantage of positional advance (i.e they're on the other side of the map), but I guess that's how Zerg should be played.
Another air unit for Terran would be nice, something similar to the science vessel maybe?
For Protoss I'm really not sure to be honest, they're always a mystery to me, I never really played much of them. Though I imagine they will eventually remove immortals to fit the whole 'Dragoons are dying out, none left etc.' theme.
I'd be happy if they just fixed Ultralisks to be honest.
On July 04 2011 14:55 oZe wrote: Sounds like slot of people ITT would like HOTS to be broodwar in a new box ;-) When I first played sc2 I felt it was too similar to broodwar to even warrant a full 2 more like a 1.4. So I'm kinda confounded by everybody bitching about how broodwar was better, it was more or less the same except now graphics are prettier (and slower they should have kept the graphics engine since the only time you zoom is when you're trying to ship resources and to only time you rotate is when you press the wrong key).
Flame away senior citizens also please tell me how milk was cheaper when you were young and how far you had to walk to school ;-)
A lot of the BW vs SC2 arguments are by players who started with SC2 -_-. In fact there was a poll on the BW forum that showed that 1/4 of the people who lurk the BW forum started with SC2, which makes sense because post-SC2 registrations simply dwarf pre-SC2 ones. And most of all it doesn't make sense for the poll to reflect the BW players point of view because there are more SC2 players than BW players on the Starcraft 2 forum.
Obviously the poll reflects what all players really want, not what BW players really want.
Please lurkers. Please lurkers!!! I Think the protoss should get a unit like the banshee or muta. They don't really have a way to harass without a giant commitment.
Terran will get a 500/500 cost massive air unit called the Battle-carrier. It will launch battlecruisers out like interceptors, which will suicide into enemy air units and detonate, or launch laser barrages against ground units.
It will have a Super Mega Ultra Uber Gosu Yamato Laser Cannon that will deal 500 AoE damage with no charge up cast, and will drain 50 mana. The vehicle is immune to feedback, EMP, and neural parasite.
You are not limited to one like a mothership.
Protoss will get an upgrade that makes observers cost no minerals for 100/100, and zerg will get an upgrade that makes their queens do one additional point of melee damage when they attack, off of hive tech.
I don't know enough to speak for Terran and Zerg, but for Protoss I think the Immortal will return in some re-imagined form. Logically, it is a gateway unit that became a robo unit (even though it isn't; it's the old Dragoon re-imagined) and should return to being a gateway unit albeit in a revised format. What that is, I don't know. This will also mean that the Robo isn't overcrowded with unit mixes and means that Protoss can spit out multiple observers and even a couple of prisms before going colossus. Speaking of prisms, I think Protoss may either see this unit revised/buffed and/or some sort of harassment unit added to the Protoss arsenal.
I do not think people are even reading the full OP, this says predictions, not what you want. I see people saying "It would be cool..." and "I would love it..."
As this thread has effectively become a "what I want" thread, this is what I would like to see. These changes are designed to weaken the early game, reduce the cheese factor and reward better unit positioning/spell play. Basically to make you think more.
Zerg:
Macro mechanic halved in power Swap the roach and the hydralisk in the tech tree Drop hydra cost to 75/25 and cut dps by a third Hydra speed upgrade at tier 2 Roach cost changed to 100/0 Roach hitpoints increased Owned creep that allows allies to build on it and restricts opponents from gaining speed buff from it Speedling speed on creep cut by 0.5 Adrenal glands upgrade increased to 50% Overseer removed Overlords given detection Tier 3 air spellcaster with unit weapon disabling spell (single target), parasite and possibly either an attack or a third utility spell (shoot creep - shoots a line of creep?) Burrow moved to tier 1 Corruption removed from corruptors. Corruptors given Autocastable 3 range increase on cooldown.
Terran:
Marine base HP reduced to 35 Marine combat shield upgrade increased by 10 hp Hellions removed and replaced by cliff jumping single target harassment unit Reaper removed Marauder HP reduced to 100 Marauder 25 HP upgrade added (takes a moderate amount of time to upgrade) Firebat added - 75/25 cost with upgradable spider mines (3) Timer added to Mule Thor removed New factory unit added - spellcaster, moderate speed, low range high damage slow fire rate attack. Castable spells - aoe slow, single target high damage attack Viking given a new mode - close range air to air splash similar to the old thor or valkyrie (Viking appearance changes significantly when using this mode) HSM removed, Irradiate added to Raven
Protoss:
(a) Warpgates removed, zealots and stalkers given HP buff, stalkers given damage buff, all gateway units given a 3 second build time reduction; or (b) Warpgates remain, but new tier 1.5 gateway only unit added. Immune to slowing/snaring effects, range 3, 2 food cost, ~100 health Colossus significantly changed - two modes "attack" mode and "cover" mode. In attack mode the Colossus has a high single target long range attack and in cover mode the colossus has a circular aoe medium damage attack with less range (basically the current attack, in a circle with less range) Phoenix given AOE upgrade at the fleet beacon Carriers given new ability to suicide interceptors to do 100 damage to an enemy unit. New nexus ability - 10 energy cost, gives one unit or building detection capabilities for 20 seconds. Templar/Dark Templar both built from templar archives and dark shrine removed.
Anyway these are just some ideas. I'd like the zerg game to be less about massing drones and more about engaging your enemy than avoiding them. I'd also like to see terran revolve less around sheer offensive dps and more about positional play. I'd also like to see protoss have stronger gateway units. Warpgates really break what Blizzard can do with gateway units as they effectively have to be balanced around being able to be warped in at their opponents base.
I definitely see something like the lurker showing up, zerg's mid-tier units are severly lacking at the moment, with the hydra & mutalisk being very situational (I see the hydra getting buffed as its been proven to be one of the least effective units at the moment). The overseer will likely be scrapped and overlords will likely gain detection after lair tech. The roach will also probably be redesigned because of how supply inefficient it is, I see a return to them being 1 supply but with a nerf as well and a slightly smaller unit model. I think creep spread will also be buffed so that it isn't directly counterable by observers (maybe buffing the tumor so that it takes some time to kill and is not auto-targeted when seen, so that the conscious decision to attack it needs to be made and it takes some investment of time rather than insta-kill)
I don't think they will be adding to terran's arsenal, perhaps removing or redesigning the raven as currently it is seldom used and mostly only for detection and the odd point defense drone (auto turrets and seeker missiles almost never rear their head). I definitely think reapers will be buffed slightly to encourage their usage, since they have a lot of potential to use if they were simply a bit more cost-efficient and therefore less situation specific.
With protoss they have suggested they don't like the immortal's role, and they have spoken about addressing the concerns about the colossus being too dominant of a unit. I see the immortal having its damage lessened and armour slightly increased so it can serve the meatshield purpose better. I think the colossus will be nerfed significantly so that it is only highly effective at killing marines, ghosts, zerglings and zealots; and somewhat effective against hydra. I see carriers and motherships getting a buff and becoming the better choice against terran mech & marauders
I didnt read all the pages, so didnt know it had become a wish thread. Apart from what I think will happen to Protoss (stated above) I would like to see the return of a viable sky Toss, and the removal of the Dark Shrine (it's an utterly useless and expensive building with a long build time). Other than that, I'm reasonably happy with where Protoss are currently at in SC2.
Wow I thought everyoneone realized each race will get a new air unit, with Area-of-effect fire. From day 1 of beta, it seemed to me Blizzard intentionally made air battles too 1 dimensional just so they could have something to add in the expansion.
Just watch. Zerg gets scourge or devourers, or both. Protoss gets the overcharge for Phoenix or something similar, and terran get's a valkyrie.
zerg: a tier 3 unit that shares attack upgrades with the hydra and roach and controls space with siege range (aka lurker, but doesn't have to be lurker! only needs similar characteristics) and something to help zerg scouting. baneling might be removed. terran: maruader replaced by something that dies easier. would love to see a melee terran unit besides scv. protoss: something replaces colossus. carrier made to not suck against everything.
On July 04 2011 14:55 oZe wrote: Sounds like slot of people ITT would like HOTS to be broodwar in a new box ;-) When I first played sc2 I felt it was too similar to broodwar to even warrant a full 2 more like a 1.4. So I'm kinda confounded by everybody bitching about how broodwar was better, it was more or less the same except now graphics are prettier (and slower they should have kept the graphics engine since the only time you zoom is when you're trying to ship resources and to only time you rotate is when you press the wrong key).
Flame away senior citizens also please tell me how milk was cheaper when you were young and how far you had to walk to school ;-)
Your post shows that you clearly didn't play both games at a high level whatsoever. I'm happy with SC2, but SC1 and SC2 are about as different as two RTS titles can be. Maybe your argument is that a few of the units have the same name in both games?
On July 04 2011 18:05 smegged wrote: As this thread has effectively become a "what I want" thread, this is what I would like to see. These changes are designed to weaken the early game, reduce the cheese factor and reward better unit positioning/spell play. Basically to make you think more.
Zerg:
Macro mechanic halved in power Swap the roach and the hydralisk in the tech tree Drop hydra cost to 75/25 and cut dps by a third Hydra speed upgrade at tier 2 Roach cost changed to 100/0 Roach hitpoints increased Owned creep that allows allies to build on it and restricts opponents from gaining speed buff from it Speedling speed on creep cut by 0.5 Adrenal glands upgrade increased to 50% Overseer removed Overlords given detection Tier 3 air spellcaster with unit weapon disabling spell (single target), parasite and possibly either an attack or a third utility spell (shoot creep - shoots a line of creep?) Burrow moved to tier 1 Corruption removed from corruptors. Corruptors given Autocastable 3 range increase on cooldown.
Terran:
Marine base HP reduced to 35 Marine combat shield upgrade increased by 10 hp Hellions removed and replaced by cliff jumping single target harassment unit Reaper removed Marauder HP reduced to 100 Marauder 25 HP upgrade added (takes a moderate amount of time to upgrade) Firebat added - 75/25 cost with upgradable spider mines (3) Timer added to Mule Thor removed New factory unit added - spellcaster, moderate speed, low range high damage slow fire rate attack. Castable spells - aoe slow, single target high damage attack Viking given a new mode - close range air to air splash similar to the old thor or valkyrie (Viking appearance changes significantly when using this mode) HSM removed, Irradiate added to Raven
Protoss:
(a) Warpgates removed, zealots and stalkers given HP buff, stalkers given damage buff, all gateway units given a 3 second build time reduction; or (b) Warpgates remain, but new tier 1.5 gateway only unit added. Immune to slowing/snaring effects, range 3, 2 food cost, ~100 health Colossus significantly changed - two modes "attack" mode and "cover" mode. In attack mode the Colossus has a high single target long range attack and in cover mode the colossus has a circular aoe medium damage attack with less range (basically the current attack, in a circle with less range) Phoenix given AOE upgrade at the fleet beacon Carriers given new ability to suicide interceptors to do 100 damage to an enemy unit. New nexus ability - 10 energy cost, gives one unit or building detection capabilities for 20 seconds. Templar/Dark Templar both built from templar archives and dark shrine removed.
Anyway these are just some ideas. I'd like the zerg game to be less about massing drones and more about engaging your enemy than avoiding them. I'd also like to see terran revolve less around sheer offensive dps and more about positional play. I'd also like to see protoss have stronger gateway units. Warpgates really break what Blizzard can do with gateway units as they effectively have to be balanced around being able to be warped in at their opponents base.
I think some of these ideas are kind of silly, but some are awesome.
As a zerg player, I 100% approve of the macro mechanic nerf and speedling on creep speed nerf. I actually agree with all your zerg nerfs, because they force zerg units to have to suck to make up for how much larva and counter-attack-ability we have.
I also really like the firebat with mines
Funny that you remove the hellion and replace it with the reaper, then remove the reaper :D
Morphed SCV that can't mine, and can only build/repair bunkers, which it does at varying speeds by picking a patch version at random and using the bunker buildtime for that particular patch.
For terran: Maybe change the thor to have a faster moving anti-air mode, and a slower moving anti-ground mode, which have to be switched actively. Add a more mobile mech unit like the goliath with a range 6 anti-ground and a range 7 "weak to light" anti-air.
For protoss: Remove colossus, add reaver (slow moving slow shooting high splash damage unit). Give the immortal less damage, little more armor, add Dragoon again to be a medium damage medium hp air-ground unit. Basically: stronger than the stalker, but more expensive, with stronger anti-armored capacities, but weaker against light units.
Zerg: make roach upgradable to lurker, and give burrowed hydralisks the ability to shoot air units while they're underground. Change fungal growth to either a no damage 2 second complete stun (nothing can shoot), or make it a slow. Maybe change it to an armor-reducing slow spell (Everything gets -5 armor while hit by fungal growth, friendly fire possible). I see this as a big cloud in which everything gets this effect, so units that enter the cloud after it has been placed still get penalized. Maybe also add a queen upgrade to something like the "overqueen", which is a tank unit that spawns broodlings with energy. It can instantly spawn a nice amount of broodlings, depending on it's energy levels, and has an area of effect range 6 attack which is better against light.
On July 02 2011 20:20 adwodon wrote: Terran will never have a melee unit, seige tanks would make it too hard to use and it doesnt fit with the Terran feel.
T needs a minelayer unit more than anything.
I also think Thor & BC need a bit of reworking, or a new air / mech unit is required to compliment them (mines would help).
the immortal knockback thing sounds really awesome... maybe not on every attack but at least a cd or some mana so u can target the knockback unit
I'd be totally stoked If they gave us some BW-Units, like:
Protoss: Arbiter (not very likely with mothership and Warp-Prism that kinda fill its role) or Reaver.
Terran: Vulture!!!
Zerg: Lurker or Defiler or some sort of T3 Caster-Unit, most likely Air, with a "kill-this-spell" like Spawn Broodlings, Irradiate etc. A T1/T1.5 Cliffhopping Unit would also be very good.
I'd want seeker missile reworked somehow.. It is so bad in its current form.. But anyway as a Terran, I'd like some upgrades reworked too.. most are so unused. No need for new units imo, maybe rework some.. And if I recall, blizz had some plans that Terran might only get some new upgrades for existing units, not new units
I would love the units to be a lot less boring. Less a more more micro and positioning. Like the colossus freezing for a little while before it can fire with thermal lance. The raven should be made a lot more useful, for instance make seeker missile a cheap, but long research time upgrade. Reduce the insane energy cost and give the raven the ability to sprint at the cost of energy. Make the roach more interesting. Make the hydra useful. Give us the void ray with 7 range but with less health. Cheesy, yes, but exciting as hell. Give the thor an expensive upgrade that allows it to carry 3 scv's on his back for autorepair. Give the corruptor the ability to suicide. Reduce reaper build time by 5 seconds, bring reaper speed back to rax tech but make the upgrade take way longer. Give reapers the ability to lay mines.
What I lack in this game is more micro. Vultures laying mines, dark swarm, arbiters using stasis, dragoons walking crazy, mutas/scourge control, reaver drops, lurker positioning, tank sieging. Storms and storm dodging. That is what made SCBW exciting. Every unit required micro. And some things in the game were blatantly overpowered ( mines, tanks, carriers, dark swarm ) . But it didn't matter since when everything is overpowered it all cancels. I see a lot of people who seem to want broodwar units back. I dont want broodwar units back. I want sc2 units made a little more special.
I have never played broodwar competitively....but I would LOVE to see the arbiter return. The mothership is such a retarted one-trick-pony unit, and arbiter PvT games were (are) incredibly fun to watch, even if I had no idea wtf was going on back then.
Maybe an upgrade to the warpprism? (expensive of course)
On July 04 2011 20:51 zeru wrote: Im also hoping they remove all movement disabling abilities such as forcefields and fungal, because i think they are really boring, and make for lame play.
Yeah.. Fungal would be better if it just slows like ensnare in BW. Fungal + banelings arent cute combo :>
On July 04 2011 20:54 sleepingdog wrote: I have never played broodwar competitively....but I would LOVE to see the arbiter return. The mothership is such a retarted one-trick-pony unit, and arbiter PvT games were (are) incredibly fun to watch, even if I had no idea wtf was going on back then.
Maybe an upgrade to the warpprism? (expensive of course)
Yeah I loved going mass zeal goon + arbiters in 3v3s
I'd like to see anti air unit for toss that can really deal with colossus, brood lords and armored air. Void rays are just to expensive and fragile to do this and phoenixes damage is pitiful to armored air. Really stalkers are the only unit to deal with armored air.
I'm not sure what terran really need. They seem to have a unit that fills almost every role. Perhaps another mech unit but I don't see how it wouldn't overlap. Goliath essentially thor, firebat/vulture similar to hellion.
Zerg definitely have areas where a unit could fill a roll. A faster ground anti-air unit, something that does splash damage similar to a colossus or tank. Maybe a slow meaty ranged unit like the thor.
Ravens cost so much to produce that all their upgrades should be available from the get go, and then have upgrades that make one of the skills really good, like making the auto-turret cost less energy. You could also turn the Raven into a sort of a flying battery that increases energy recharge rate of surrounding units and structures at the cost of its own.
HotS needs to introduce units that cause excitement for the watchers, and I still hope Blizzard has the balls to remove the Collosus, most boring unit in the game + too strong for a unit that easy to handle
On July 02 2011 20:17 sabas123 wrote: P: i realy am not sure what they are gonna put into, but i hope there gonna do a reaver like untie Z: LURKER!!! T: a better anti air unit besides from marines
LOL. yeah I hate when my only air defense early game is the only unit i build.
I dont care wich units they bring they just have to redesign protoss completely.
I dont think Protoss is imbalanced but it is too easy to play. You basically never have to worry about anything and in most cases protoss is the race that dictates the pace of the game. Espacially the colossus.
I think the colossus is the most wrong unit ever in a rts. I mean on paper its great, but it basically is a siegetank that has more dps, is more mobile and you dont have to fucking micro it.
Almost every timing in Protoss related matchups wrap around the colossus wich is just wrong and in combination with sentries on certain maps almost unbeatable if unscouted for 1min too long.
So either cut the colossus out and replace it or change its movementspeed and give the unit a mechanic wich makes it fun and hard to play.
As far as new units go, I want a new mech unit for terran. You are basically limited to 3 bad units and after siege tank nerf mech is pretty much useless.
For Protoss I really want a harass unit. They simply have nothing but DTs wich are more like a gamble.
For Zerg I really want to see something you can morph out of hydras. That would make hyrdas somewhat usefull and if colossi and tanks are out you can just morph them to whatever has more hp or is faster or even flies.
On July 04 2011 22:39 Leviance wrote: HotS needs to introduce units that cause excitement for the watchers, and I still hope Blizzard has the balls to remove the Collosus, most boring unit in the game + too strong for a unit that easy to handle
I don't think the colossus needs to be removed, it could be just re-adjusted to have a defined niche role.
Like instead of killing everything on the ground, it would have bonus damage to light units and only be really good against those. Buff other protoss options accordingly.
On July 04 2011 18:05 smegged wrote: As this thread has effectively become a "what I want" thread, this is what I would like to see. These changes are designed to weaken the early game, reduce the cheese factor and reward better unit positioning/spell play. Basically to make you think more.
Zerg:
Macro mechanic halved in power Swap the roach and the hydralisk in the tech tree Drop hydra cost to 75/25 and cut dps by a third Hydra speed upgrade at tier 2 Roach cost changed to 100/0 Roach hitpoints increased Owned creep that allows allies to build on it and restricts opponents from gaining speed buff from it Speedling speed on creep cut by 0.5 Adrenal glands upgrade increased to 50% Overseer removed Overlords given detection Tier 3 air spellcaster with unit weapon disabling spell (single target), parasite and possibly either an attack or a third utility spell (shoot creep - shoots a line of creep?) Burrow moved to tier 1 Corruption removed from corruptors. Corruptors given Autocastable 3 range increase on cooldown.
Terran:
Marine base HP reduced to 35 Marine combat shield upgrade increased by 10 hp Hellions removed and replaced by cliff jumping single target harassment unit Reaper removed Marauder HP reduced to 100 Marauder 25 HP upgrade added (takes a moderate amount of time to upgrade) Firebat added - 75/25 cost with upgradable spider mines (3) Timer added to Mule Thor removed New factory unit added - spellcaster, moderate speed, low range high damage slow fire rate attack. Castable spells - aoe slow, single target high damage attack Viking given a new mode - close range air to air splash similar to the old thor or valkyrie (Viking appearance changes significantly when using this mode) HSM removed, Irradiate added to Raven
Protoss:
(a) Warpgates removed, zealots and stalkers given HP buff, stalkers given damage buff, all gateway units given a 3 second build time reduction; or (b) Warpgates remain, but new tier 1.5 gateway only unit added. Immune to slowing/snaring effects, range 3, 2 food cost, ~100 health Colossus significantly changed - two modes "attack" mode and "cover" mode. In attack mode the Colossus has a high single target long range attack and in cover mode the colossus has a circular aoe medium damage attack with less range (basically the current attack, in a circle with less range) Phoenix given AOE upgrade at the fleet beacon Carriers given new ability to suicide interceptors to do 100 damage to an enemy unit. New nexus ability - 10 energy cost, gives one unit or building detection capabilities for 20 seconds. Templar/Dark Templar both built from templar archives and dark shrine removed.
Anyway these are just some ideas. I'd like the zerg game to be less about massing drones and more about engaging your enemy than avoiding them. I'd also like to see terran revolve less around sheer offensive dps and more about positional play. I'd also like to see protoss have stronger gateway units. Warpgates really break what Blizzard can do with gateway units as they effectively have to be balanced around being able to be warped in at their opponents base.
I think some of these ideas are kind of silly, but some are awesome.
As a zerg player, I 100% approve of the macro mechanic nerf and speedling on creep speed nerf. I actually agree with all your zerg nerfs, because they force zerg units to have to suck to make up for how much larva and counter-attack-ability we have.
I also really like the firebat with mines
Funny that you remove the hellion and replace it with the reaper, then remove the reaper :D
Ha I wasn't even thinking reaper, I was thinking a spider bike with jumping capabilities and no mines.
My point with the zerg nerfs was to ensure that their earlier game units can be stronger because we can't power drone as hard. It would force zerg into pressuring their opponents instead of basically acting as resource collectors for the first fifteen minutes.
Some of these ideas are ridiculous, but the whole point is that I think there are a lot of creative things that they can do with the units. Colossi are really what make the game bad. They are big fat walking globs of death. Difficult to deal with but completely uninteresting as a unit. Their vulnerability is almost meaningless because they can be repositioned so easily and never leave home without a pack of stalkers.
Terran at the moment have too many strong options in the early game vs zerg for harassment. My changes (dropping the reaper back to factory, making it mineral only and removing the hellion) were designed to push the game into tier 2 territory and not just have zvt be "terran loses if their harass fails and wins if it succeeds" as it almost is now. It's just too easy to roast a whole mineral line with blue flame hellions before the 10 minute mark.
I also hate build order losses. Nothing is more boring than a pro game where the terran manages to get two cloaked banshees into their opponents base, kill 6-10 probes and win the game. Hence giving zerg and protoss tier 1 detection, to match terran's ability.
The overseer is a ridiculous unit and should be annihilated. They're way too easy to snipe in the mid-late game in zvp as well. Giving overlords detection would also give zerg players a reason to upgrade speed at tier 2.
Hydra need a speed upgrade to be viable as anything other than a ground based AA unit. Carriers also need some love and I thought the interceptor suicide was a fun and interesting decision to make for the player.
I don't like that protoss are forced to go warpgates every game. I think that there should be some choice, some reason to stick with gateways. So giving them a gateway only unit would add a new dimension. I don't like the proxy warp in ability of the gateway either. It either makes gateway units either too powerful or too weak (they're currently too weak). 100 minerals should not give you four production facilities right outside your opponent's base.
In addition to all of this I think that the thor is a stupid unit. It offers little to no micro opportunity that does not already exist with a tank and is either too strong or too weak. It's fat and it's slow and it's powerful. That makes it uninteresting. Remove it and give terran a viable spellcaster that helps them control ground other than the raven.
Anyway, enough ranting from me. I trust that by the third expansion we'll have a game that is far more interesting than the one we have now.
What's with everyone voting for a protoss ground artillery unit? That's precisely what the collosus IS! A unit with 9 range and high splash DPS sounds like an artillery unit to me.
IMO I think they'll add a dedicated anti-deathball unit for zerg; although as the metagame develops perhaps baneling+infestor may fufill that role. Terran will get a unit that has some harassment ability; or perhaps they'll redesign the reaper. Protoss will get a support unit of some description, perhaps a caster who doesn't have a nuke spell like the HT does.
I think (read hope) we'll be seeing more redesigning than adding units. I feel that every race is in a good spot in terms of useful units go at the moment, and we probably don't need more units. We just need the current units roles to be re-evaluated. Protoss is too deathball oriented. If we look back at the way SCBW worked the Terrans were the one with the strongest units overall (T is so OP) but they were so difficult to use that even a small mistake can lose you the game. Protoss has the best units in WoL, but they're not a positional based race like Terran in BW.
If you left terrans alone for long enough in SCBW then you might just die because their compositions become so cost efficient. However it still requires the terran to execute his attack pretty much perfectly to win. In WoL, if you leave protoss alone for long enough they also become really scary, but their attacks aren't as difficult to execute and as fine balanced as terran was. I'm not saying Protoss is the 'easy race', I don't want to get into that argument, I'm just saying that I think the whole deathball idea that underpins a lot of collosus based protoss strategies is fundamentally a bad idea and Blizzard needs to put some serious thought into redesigning the way it works.
On July 04 2011 23:18 ManicMarine wrote: What's with everyone voting for a protoss ground artillery unit? That's precisely what the collosus IS! A unit with 9 range and high splash DPS sounds like an artillery unit to me.
IMO I think they'll add a dedicated anti-deathball unit for zerg; although as the metagame develops perhaps baneling+infestor may fufill that role. Terran will get a unit that has some harassment ability; or perhaps they'll redesign the reaper. Protoss will get a support unit of some description, perhaps a caster who doesn't have a nuke spell like the HT does.
I think (read hope) we'll be seeing more redesigning than adding units. I feel that every race is in a good spot in terms of useful units go at the moment, and we probably don't need more units. We just need the current units roles to be re-evaluated. Protoss is too deathball oriented. If we look back at the way SCBW worked the Terrans were the one with the strongest units overall (T is so OP) but they were so difficult to use that even a small mistake can lose you the game. Protoss has the best units in WoL, but they're not a positional based race like Terran in BW.
If you left terrans alone for long enough in SCBW then you might just die because their compositions become so cost efficient. However it still requires the terran to execute his attack pretty much perfectly to win. In WoL, if you leave protoss alone for long enough they also become really scary, but their attacks aren't as difficult to execute and as fine balanced as terran was. I'm not saying Protoss is the 'easy race', I don't want to get into that argument, I'm just saying that I think the whole deathball idea that underpins a lot of collosus based protoss strategies is fundamentally a bad idea and Blizzard needs to put some serious thought into redesigning the way it works.
What were we talking about?
Terran doesnt need another harass unit. Most of their units already are. Marines/Marauders + Medivacs, Hellions, Banshees, Tanks on a Cliff, Thorships, even slow Reapers can do disgusting damage. Why would Terran need more?
On the other hand, Protoss have aside from DTs and Phoenix no harass units, and therefore opt to play the deathball style. If they had, you probably wouldnt see Colossus that often. And you are wrong, Colossi are not easy units, and they are certainly not OP. Play Protoss for a bit, and see for yourself.
Typical TL thread: everyone just want units from BW back.
I hope Blizzard don't listen to fans forum and implant new and interesting units, instead of "bringing back units".
However I admit that a unit with a similar role to the lurker would be really interesting and useful. It doesn't have to be the lurker, just a similar one.
As for Terran, you guys should check the units from the campaign to see which one should be introduced.
What I really want for Terran is that Thor is being removed.. OR reworked hard. I don't like the idea of big badass arnold walking with giant badass thing making huge loads of damage. I'd like goliath more Or similar to goliath.. Something "fast" and "cheap"
Thor isn't really an answer for AA. It's AoE damage is cute, but it sucks. Go and Magic Box shit out of Thors and boom they are gone. Remove that Strike Cannon shit and add an upgrade which gives Thor bigger AoE AA attack or something and it is better.. maybe then we don't need goliaths to do Mech's AA work.
Sure you can add marines or vikings there. Vikings are cool but not as cool as goliath. But it takes something away from pure mech
P.S. Goliaths are like only unit I really want from BW if necessary. Other units can be reworked slightly.
P.P.S. Dustin Browders idea of Terrible Terrible Damage... Sure he was working with Red Alerts and so on.. I can see that. Boring and Huge units killing everything instantly isn't fun. Look at Thor, Colossus and Mothership.. Please no.
On July 04 2011 12:13 L3gendary wrote: I was going to make a long post but then I realized I just want them to remove most of the new sc2 units and replace them with their bw counter parts.
You should probably just go play brood war then if you can't handle a new game lol
Not sure what it has to do with the difficulty...sc2 is easier than bw. I just think some of the units are less interesting. Like colo vs reaver, helion vs vulture, mothership vs arbiter, corrupter vs scourge, roach/bane vs lurker (ok banelings are fun but mostly when they're burrowed or dropped).
Maybe you should read the post I quoted, then
Maybe you should read your own post, where you said I didn't like the new units because I couldn't "handle" the new game, which is ironic since I started playing starcraft with sc2. I don't have a problem with other new units like the reaper, stalker, sentry, queen etc. And units aren't the only important thing in a game.
No
I didn't say you didn't like the new units because you couldn't handle the new game.
You said you wanted all the units to be BW units. Which means you're better off just playing brood war because this game, for better or worse, is supposed to be different. I don't mean you can't handle the task of playing the game. I meant you can't seem to handle the new/different type of game. Maybe it's too different and intimidating for you, who knows. But I never said sc2 was easier or harder
Keep in mind that in previous Blizzard expansions (BW and TFT) they have always added 1 air unit and 1 ground units per race.
So I expect 1 new ground and 1 new air unit per race for multiplayer.
Protoss: A high tier powerful flying AOE anti-air caster unit (some kind of Dark Templar ship like the Void Seeker) and a low tier AOE ground unit that is slow but deals high damage to light units (mini reavers?).
Terran: A mid-tier AOE anti-air air unit (Valks!) and a mid-tier all purpose-combat walker (similar to Goliaths).
Zerg: A powerful suicidal air unit (Scourge return!) and a tier 2 caster that specializes in killing other casters.
On July 05 2011 03:00 BronzeKnee wrote: Keep in mind that in previous Blizzard expansions (BW and TFT) they have always added 1 air unit and 1 ground units per race.
So I expect 1 new ground and 1 new air unit per race for multiplayer.
Those games only had 1 expansion each. This one has two.
On July 05 2011 03:00 BronzeKnee wrote: Keep in mind that in previous Blizzard expansions (BW and TFT) they have always added 1 air unit and 1 ground units per race.
So I expect 1 new ground and 1 new air unit per race for multiplayer.
Those games only had 1 expansion each. This one has two.
So one ground/air unit? Sounds kinda boring then..and I heard they may take out some units too. If the current units are reworked a bit, though, then i won't really have any problems. If there will be only one zerg unit, then it better not be some hero type mothership thing >_>
On July 04 2011 23:00 DennyR wrote: I dont care wich units they bring they just have to redesign protoss completely.
I dont think Protoss is imbalanced but it is too easy to play. You basically never have to worry about anything and in most cases protoss is the race that dictates the pace of the game. Espacially the colossus.
I think the colossus is the most wrong unit ever in a rts. I mean on paper its great, but it basically is a siegetank that has more dps, is more mobile and you dont have to fucking micro it.
Almost every timing in Protoss related matchups wrap around the colossus wich is just wrong and in combination with sentries on certain maps almost unbeatable if unscouted for 1min too long.
So either cut the colossus out and replace it or change its movementspeed and give the unit a mechanic wich makes it fun and hard to play.
As far as new units go, I want a new mech unit for terran. You are basically limited to 3 bad units and after siege tank nerf mech is pretty much useless.
For Protoss I really want a harass unit. They simply have nothing but DTs wich are more like a gamble.
For Zerg I really want to see something you can morph out of hydras. That would make hyrdas somewhat usefull and if colossi and tanks are out you can just morph them to whatever has more hp or is faster or even flies.
How does a race that plays incredibly defensively because we have the most expensive units in the game and will never come out on top after trading armies control the pace of the game?
I can think of one timing that wraps around a collosus in PvP, and its not really a timing, its just push out when/if you are ahead in a collosus count. I can however think of 4gate timings, phoenix timings, blink timings, dt timings ect ect.
I agree though a protoss collosus doesn't require micro when you stim + 1a your entire terran army into a protoss ball simply to cry about how easy they are to play. You need to stop posting on TL.
As for your insight on Zerg units. How would you feel if you scout HT's vs a protoss and proceed to get ghosts. Only to have those HT's morph into a collosus to counter your counter. That really rewards your opponent for countering you well.
i would love to hear a podcast or whatever with this topic and only pros discussing this topic. i think that their opinions wont be far from what we get.
I would kind of like to see "evolutions" for Zerg units, similar to what has been seen from the HotS campaign, (paying the cost and having research time for) that change the way their units work. Just as an example (so no balance discussion, please, this is JUST an example), you could pay 200/200 and have research time for an upgrade that makes zerglings a flying air-attack-only unit, or an upgrade that gives them cliffjumping - but not both at the same time. Adrenal Glands could even be one of the possible evolutions.
You could either have it where once you pick, that's it, or where you can change back and forth, but have to pay the associated cost and research time each time that you do - or possibly it costs more and takes longer to "switch" then it does to research initially..
On July 04 2011 23:18 ManicMarine wrote: What's with everyone voting for a protoss ground artillery unit? That's precisely what the collosus IS! A unit with 9 range and high splash DPS sounds like an artillery unit to me.
Well, to be fair.. Compared to the 13 range of a Siege Tank, the Colossus is almost something of a melee unit.
I suppose I will throw out a reply, even though I know this thread is silly and my reply will get flamed to extinction.
Here is what I hope to see in HotS.
For Terran:
Something that makes massed Mech play more viable. Not saying it's not viable right now, but it revolves around lots of Thors, and Blizzard has said they do not like mass Thor compositions, they want an army to include just a couple Thors as a support unit.
At the same time, Terran wants another unit that can be built from a Reactor'd Factory. Part of the appeal of Terran is its unit producing structures versatility. Everything can make multiple unit types which lends itself towards easy tech switches and difficulty of scouting Terran builds, which is important because they build their armies up slowly compared to Protoss warp ins and Zerg larva. The only Terran buildings that can only build 1 unit are Factories and Barracks with Reactors. Marines are already very versatile and used in every composition to some degree, but Hellions are not.
So what I'd like to see for Terran is a unit built from the Factory, does not require a Techlab, that is a small, meaty, somewhat versatile Mech unit. Perhaps it can hit air, but focuses more on fighting vs. ground. Perhaps it does not require a tech lab on the Factory, but still requires an Armory, so the idea is to use it as your backbone unit when going mass mech, with tanks and thors as backup.
For Zerg:
I'd like to see more late game tech for Zerg. Another spellcaster would be nice, perhaps a flying one. Blizzard has said they don't particularly like the Overseer as a unit, so I'm guessing they might design a late game flying spellcaster, move the Overseers spells there, and then make the Overseer cheaper and just have it be a fast moving, flying detector with no spells. If Overseers only cost say, 50/50, and built faster, but didn't have spells, I think a lot of Zerg players would like that as a scouting tool, and a late game tech flying spellcaster for Zerg with Contaminate and some other stuff might be cool too.
I'd also like to see, rather than new units, a lot of new upgrades to existing units. I feel like every unit in the game should have some sort of unique upgrade, so players who like an individual unit can attempt to create a strategy that revolves around upgrading that unit and making it awesome. Zerg units and structures lack the sort of unique upgrades that Terran and to a lesser degree Protoss units do. Since it's going to be a Zerg campaign and they've said they're focusing on transforming a lot of existing units rather than adding a bunch of new ones, I think that will transition to multiplayer and we'll see a lot of new upgrades to existing Zerg units rather than new units themselves.
For Protoss:
Protoss I think has the most availability and most need for new units right now. My concept of Protoss is that they have 3 completely different tech trees (Robotics, Stargate and Templar), and they should only be on one such tree throughout the early and mid game, with only enough time to tech to multiple trees towards the late game. This is why Protoss has so many buildings and it's why they have so many mandatory upgrades, Blizzard is trying to get you to focus on 1 of 3 trees, and trying to get your opponent to scout in advance what tree you are going for.
But I feel like they've somewhat fallen short of the mark there. Basically any build requires you to have an Observer, which then means you're incentivized towards Colossus tech because you already have the Robotics out and once your Observers are fielded you aren't doing much with it.
So for Protoss, first I'd like to see the Observer, and also possibly the Warp Prism, moved back to the Observatory. Have the Observatory be the mandatory building everybody has to get for detection, and then let them pick one of the 3 tech paths without being nudged towards Robotics.
Then after that, you have to make sure each of the 3 trees is able to stand on its own, and that's where new units come in. If you go Robotics, you have a lack of anti air. Big air plays generally force a Protoss player to go for blink stalkers and templar. So I'd like to see a Robotics tech unit that is dedicated to anti air. Possibly a ground unit like the Immortal but one that can only attack air. There aren't any ground units in the game that can only attack air, so I think that would be neat. Also might be pretty good vs. Colossus if built correctly.
For Stargate tech, Protoss lacks a meaty unit that can be the filler in a multi Stargate composition. Void Rays are a bit too expensive and Phoenixes can't attack ground. So some sort of generic Stargate tech unit that can attack both air and ground but isn't particularly amazing would be nice. Scout roflroflrofl?
For Templar tech, I think Protoss is fairly well rounded, although I'd like to see them able to put Khaydarin Amulet back in, if they can balance around it. A Dark Templar upgrade might be neat too so the Dark Shrine doesn't just sort of sit there.
Anyways, this post has alleviated my boredom for a few minutes. Flame it at your liesure.
Since the thread derailed into "what I'd like to see in Hots":
Zerg: Roaches and Hydras change places in the tech tree. Hydras start costing 1 supply, and are nerffed acordingly. Roaches start costing 150/50 or even more, maybe start to take up 3 supply, but become more tanky units (colossi counter). Lurkers added - evolution of the hydra den available at Tech 2. Tier 3 flying caster added
Protoss: New unit: "super zealot" available at warpgates after twilight counsil is built, can fuse to form archons. Also has anti-air capabilities. (Idea is a utility unit that also workers as a way to produce mass archons in a less gas-heavy way). Dark Shrine now enables the Dark Pylon: observers can morph into a static structure that provides power. Remains cloacked while there aren't units warping inside it's radio. Carriers reworked into a more supportish unit: get a shield ability that incresases all protoss units armour for a small time and restores part of their shields. Maybe another (upgradable) ability, like an ainti air attack.
Terran:
New unit: 3 supply mech produced at the factory, can leave land mines, maybe similar to the golias of the canpain. Reapers reworked or replaced by a similar harass unit. (maybe create a upgrade to make them less squishy, so a few could be integrated into a bio oriented terran's army) Raven get's a new, more postional oriented ability (think of psi storm or dark swarm as examples of positional oriented)
On July 05 2011 04:03 Auross wrote: Since the thread derailed into "what I'd like to see in Hots": Terran: Raven get's a new, more postional oriented ability (think of psi storm or dark swarm as examples of positional oriented)
The PDD is pretty position oriented, imo.
EDIT: What I'd like to see: Zerg: not lurkers, because it would turn SC2 into BW where everything was so slow. I do like the idea of a morph, maybe roaches that morph into 2 smaller, less tanky but faster creatures that do bonus to light. This way roach hydra can see more usage vs terran.
Protoss: Sentry energy upgrade <3. Colossus is good enough, we don't need the reaver. IMO protoss could use mobility, but a cliff jumper would eliminate any use of hallucinations, phoenixes, or rays (for harass). I'd like to see VR speed back.
Terran: mines would make me angry. A new reactored unit from the factory would not. So not vultures. perhaps predators, or goliath to compliment the terran mech army (albeit which i'm not a fan of). But it would give terran a better choice range, instead of marine tank and marine marauder builds. Also, it'd be nice if there was a mobile unit that can deal with mutalisks (i.e. valkyries or splash upgrade for viking?)
On July 04 2011 23:00 DennyR wrote: I dont care wich units they bring they just have to redesign protoss completely.
I dont think Protoss is imbalanced but it is too easy to play. You basically never have to worry about anything and in most cases protoss is the race that dictates the pace of the game. Espacially the colossus.
I think the colossus is the most wrong unit ever in a rts. I mean on paper its great, but it basically is a siegetank that has more dps, is more mobile and you dont have to fucking micro it.
Almost every timing in Protoss related matchups wrap around the colossus wich is just wrong and in combination with sentries on certain maps almost unbeatable if unscouted for 1min too long.
So either cut the colossus out and replace it or change its movementspeed and give the unit a mechanic wich makes it fun and hard to play.
As far as new units go, I want a new mech unit for terran. You are basically limited to 3 bad units and after siege tank nerf mech is pretty much useless.
For Protoss I really want a harass unit. They simply have nothing but DTs wich are more like a gamble.
For Zerg I really want to see something you can morph out of hydras. That would make hyrdas somewhat usefull and if colossi and tanks are out you can just morph them to whatever has more hp or is faster or even flies.
They should just remove the dark shrine completely. The DT turned from a great harass unit, to something that feels like cheese.
On July 05 2011 05:47 Bagi wrote: Anyone else really sick of the roach/hydra switch idea?
"But hey, what worked in BW has to work in SC2 too, right?"
No, not really.
No because Roach can't shoot air. All early game BW units could shoot air, and air units were also weaker, Queen is a terrible excuse for no anti-air at tier 1. You should only suffer a lot of damage from doing a coin flip and coming out with a bad build order, not lose completely because protoss has 1 void ray.
On July 05 2011 12:03 iamho wrote: Give hellions mines and a speed upgrade!
Would rather just vultures, hellions are so terrible vs armored and buildings, its half the reason heavy metal sucks so much vs protoss/terran.
On July 05 2011 12:03 iamho wrote: Something that makes massed Mech play more viable. Not saying it's not viable right now, but it revolves around lots of Thors, and Blizzard has said they do not like mass Thor compositions, they want an army to include just a couple Thors as a support unit. .
I will be furious if Blizzard actually said this because it clearly shows that they have no idea what they are doing. The "we do not like mass X compositions, we just want it as a support unit" is almost child-like.
SC2 suffers from having so many gimmicky units that you have to use all of them in a single battle. People say there are more used units in SC2 than in BW, that may be the case, but each unit individually is less useful.
In TvP (I go mech), I have tanks, marines, hellions, ravens, vikings, ghosts, thors, planetary fortresses, while the protoss uses, high templar, dark templar, voidray, carrier, colossus, immortal, stalker, zealot, all used in a single battle. Not only does this look like a cluster fuck, each unit basically doesn't require any control after doing a single command.
In BW I would only use 3 units, but I needed to use them well. The game was much easier to understand, but harder to master, a lot more fun, and a lot easier on the eyes.
The reason for this is Blizzards obsession with creating gimmicky units that are sprinkled into the main army. Seriously, back in ALPHA and BETA all I would hear is this "support" unit or "meat-shield" unit, and would hardly every hear about core units that actually fulfill more than one role. So now the only core unit Terran has is the marine, and that explains A LOT. Protoss doesn't even have a core unit, and Zerg's core unit (the Hydra) can't even be used properly.
Of course mass Thors are being used, it is the only mech unit that can stand against immortals and can shoot both air and ground. Once carriers were out in BW, your army was 90% goliaths. Blizzard thinks that by nerfing the Thor, you won't see mass Thor, ok that may be true, but will not see mech either. The fix is more fundamental than just adding energy to the Thor (why the hell is the Thor a spellcaster anyway, wtf?, could you imagine Schwarzenegger charging up his energy so he can cast his fireball?).
Also whats the point in using siege tanks when Protoss in SC2 is a race purely designed to counter siege tanks, blink stalker, chargelot, void-ray, immortal, colossus [9 range, doesn't require setup, a siege unit that is more mobile than ground units], high templar with smart-cast but still only needs 2 storms to take out tanks, warp-in to stop harass.
Basically the only viable unit you have left in the mech arsenal is the Thor, or just use MMM, because its almost like Protoss doesn't even have a proper response to them except forcefield in the early-mid game until P has enough units (doesn't make sense at all considering Protoss was the tough heavy hitting race, where as Terran was a defensive/zoning slow push race). Protoss is broken because nearly every unit was designed to counter the seige tank, don't ask me why.
However because of 1 unit, the Colossus. Mech is the only way Terran can fight Protoss head on in the late game. MMM is both extremely boring in SC2, and TvP lategame turns into a stupid cat & mouse chase because Terran doesn't want to engage mass Colossus. Mass bio vs every composition also just feels wrong with Terran.
PS. I don't really care about BW units being in SC2 (even though I'd like to see BW units make a comeback), I just want Blizzard to stop making gimmicky units, and actually give us units we can actually use.
Terran needs a mobile anti-air unit preferrable air that can take on ALL air-units, to stop mass mass muta but also broodlords and mass void-rays/carriers. The thor is too immobile.
Terran needs a mobile specialist unit preferrably air that can take on ALL other specialist units. The ghost is too immobile and dies so fast. Infestor BL will continue to be a problem otherwise.
Protoss needs a core gateway unit that doesn't suck and can take on every other unit without forcefields but with micro, and can survive on their own. This is so Protoss can get up early expansions without dying instantly to stimmed MMM, and marauders won't be so overpowered early game. Nerfs to stim (50% increase instead of 100%) because of terrible Protoss gateway units, has made TvZ almost impossible late game against zerg.
Zerg is just completely wrong right now.
Zerg needs a mobile anti-air unit early game, the Queen is too immobile and flaky.
Zerg needs options to be aggressive at all stages of the game. Defending and macro-ing up as Zerg makes no sense at all.
Zerg needs overpowered spellcasters and overpowered units (given good flanking and micro) so they can be aggressive with a small amount of defense and continue to make lots of bases and don't die instantly because their scouting options are so bad early game.
Nerf spawn-larva to the ground. Early game Zerg should be strongest early game, not late game. Late game Zerg can make more hatcheries anyway, spawn larva has resulted in some of the worst nerfs to zerg.
Zerg needs lurkers because banelings die, and dieing banelings means lost drones. Its so stupid to see banelings clean up everything only to die to the second push because Zerg couldn't make drones.
Terran: Goliaths, same shit as in the campaign, fairly shitty ground attack and awesome-ass GtA attack, would come from Armory, keep everything else the exact fucking same, crybabies.
Zerg: Call it the Lurker, but just make it an underground Siege Tank that does AoE damage instead of splash damage and then has a single target 6-7 range air attack. Have it morph from two Hydras (Not exactly sure how this would work switching Hydra-Roach, but whatever this is worse than fantasy league crap). I'd also like to see something like Scourge, but just make it so banelings can switch from ground to air like vikings.
Protoss: This is the race I play, so I want to balance the shit out of it. Fuck FF, make it 100 energy and replace Blink with a sentry upgrade that decreases it back down to 50, same 150/150 cost. Then you take Blink, and shove it with the Dark Shrine for 250/250, and give DT blink alongside Stalkers, so when you use DT's you can actually have some sort of retention instead of either winning or wasting DT's the way it is now. For new units, shield-regen science vessel (I think some other people said it earlier, cba to remember the name) that would come with Fleet Beacon. ALSO make Dark Archon from 2 Dark Templar, but instead of another caster unit, make it the same shit as Archon but with AoE instead of splash (I don't think people give enough attention to the difference), so that Archon would be good against Ultras and Roaches, and Dark Archons would be good against Hydras and Lings and such, which would give Protoss another unit to use against Roaches, instead of forcing Protoss to go Immortal, which then leads to "boring" Colossus (I'm not going to try to argue for big-ass tower lazer badasses, some people think that SC should just be checkers or some shit)
Maybe add Leviathan and Jackson's Revenge type BC so T+Z can have a useless big-ass ship too. And before people say nydus, that's just a shitty warp-in, and Nuke is freaking T2 and Mothership is T3 so fuck that.
And of course, make Mothership/Hydras/Zealots/whatever else more useful.
All races have one artillery unit and I don't think any will get another one, as colossus and siege tank are both extremly fast available and zerg artillery has to be late available, else it would be imba... Im going with: Terran: Mech unit that can deal with immortals and zealots (--> high repetition, high dps), maybe antiair Zerg: I guess there are 2possibilities: a combat caster or a T2.5 badass. Personally I hope for both: a KingHydralisk and an improved queen. Protoss: well... I don't care about you, so hopefully a fathership that sucks as much as the mothership. ^^ But if I had to guess: Something that can deal with air a little better but doesn't overlap with stalkers/phoenix/voidray. Maybe simply a +2-3vs armored phoenix laser upgrade, so it shoots red...
Get rid of Colossus. Replace it with something else (maybe Reavers). Not for the stupid BW nostalgia reasons we've had bandied about in this thread. I mean, yeah Reavers had cool micro, so if Blizzard does get rid of the Colossus, then I guess it would be cool if Reavers replaced them. However, the reason they should remove the Colossus is because of the HUGE overlap with Carriers. We will probably never see Carriers used competitively, just because the exact same units that beat Colossus beat Carriers. Almost all the tactical uses and benefits for Carriers (Attacking from over cliffs, huge DPS, hiding behind tanking units attacking from range) are the same for Colossus. Even if Carriers were statistically extremely similar, or even ever so slightly better than Colossus, they would and should NEVER be used, because Colossus are placed so much better in the tech tree, with the aforementioned similar benefits to Carriers. The building that create Colossus creates observers, which are required for Protoss, and upgrades for Gateways work on Colossus. Because of this, Colossus work so much better than Carriers, without providing any particular differentiation from them tactically. Because of this, I think that the Colossus should be replaced. In general, even as a Protoss player, I don't feel like they are the best designed race, however, Blizzard have already proved themselves willing to dramatically shake up their games with expansions, so I don't feel too worried that important changes won't be made. For Zerg, I guess Lurkers would add a cool delaying factor to midgame Zerg play, which could be cool. I think the Roach could use a bit of an overhaul, as they are kinda dull. Perhaps make them faster (for more hit and run attacks) and make their burrow regeneration a bit better again, as it was one of the main of characteristics Roaches, and now is basically ignored. And I think the Infester should be removed or changed. I feel like they do too much: Stop small Melee units (Zerglings aren't great when they can't move), stop medium ranged units (Since the damage buff to armour it destroys Roaches, Stalkers and Maruaders), destroys high priority large targets (Neural Parasite vs Tanks, Battlecruisers, Colossus, Mothership, Carriers etc), stops drops through completely paralysing the units, and breaking defensive emplacements (Infested Terrans) Oh, and it destroys marines. However, it does all of this without being particularly tactically interesting. Specifically, Fungal Growth is like storm, without the awesome animation, and cool area denial abilities. It's not OP, but it is good versus everything, and really lame. For Terran, I think the race is actually really well developed. Maybe Thors should be adjusted so mech is more viable, but really, Terrans seems nicely designed. Reapers getting mines would be cool, and I think would really change Terran Bio play, but to be honest Terran doesn't need that much added on to it. Not that new units wouldn't be cool, and balance modification may be needed in the future, but right now changing Terran does not need to be a priority. Tl;DR: Colossus need replacing for actual reasons rather than Reavers being cool, Zerg need a new spellcaster, Terran is Blizzard's design success, lets hope for more of that in HotS.
On July 05 2011 12:03 iamho wrote: Something that makes massed Mech play more viable. Not saying it's not viable right now, but it revolves around lots of Thors, and Blizzard has said they do not like mass Thor compositions, they want an army to include just a couple Thors as a support unit. .
I will be furious if Blizzard actually said this because it clearly shows that they have no idea what they are doing. The "we do not like mass X compositions, we just want it as a support unit" is almost child-like.
SC2 suffers from having so many gimmicky units that you have to use all of them in a single battle. People say there are more used units in SC2 than in BW, that may be the case, but each unit individually is less useful.
In TvP (I go mech), I have tanks, marines, hellions, ravens, vikings, ghosts, thors, planetary fortresses, while the protoss uses, high templar, dark templar, voidray, carrier, colossus, immortal, stalker, zealot, all used in a single battle. Not only does this look like a cluster fuck, each unit basically doesn't require any control after doing a single command.
In BW I would only use 3 units, but I needed to use them well. The game was much easier to understand, but harder to master, a lot more fun, and a lot easier on the eyes.
The reason for this is Blizzards obsession with creating gimmicky units that are sprinkled into the main army. Seriously, back in ALPHA and BETA all I would hear is this "support" unit or "meat-shield" unit, and would hardly every hear about core units that actually fulfill more than one role. So now the only core unit Terran has is the marine, and that explains A LOT. Protoss doesn't even have a core unit, and Zerg's core unit (the Hydra) can't even be used properly.
Of course mass Thors are being used, it is the only mech unit that can stand against immortals and can shoot both air and ground. Once carriers were out in BW, your army was 90% goliaths. Blizzard thinks that by nerfing the Thor, you won't see mass Thor, ok that may be true, but will not see mech either. The fix is more fundamental than just adding energy to the Thor (why the hell is the Thor a spellcaster anyway, wtf?, could you imagine Schwarzenegger charging up his energy so he can cast his fireball?).
Also whats the point in using siege tanks when Protoss in SC2 is a race purely designed to counter siege tanks, blink stalker, chargelot, void-ray, immortal, colossus [9 range, doesn't require setup, a siege unit that is more mobile than ground units], high templar with smart-cast but still only needs 2 storms to take out tanks, warp-in to stop harass.
Basically the only viable unit you have left in the mech arsenal is the Thor, or just use MMM, because its almost like Protoss doesn't even have a proper response to them except forcefield in the early-mid game until P has enough units (doesn't make sense at all considering Protoss was the tough heavy hitting race, where as Terran was a defensive/zoning slow push race). Protoss is broken because nearly every unit was designed to counter the seige tank, don't ask me why.
However because of 1 unit, the Colossus. Mech is the only way Terran can fight Protoss head on in the late game. MMM is both extremely boring in SC2, and TvP lategame turns into a stupid cat & mouse chase because Terran doesn't want to engage mass Colossus. Mass bio vs every composition also just feels wrong with Terran.
PS. I don't really care about BW units being in SC2 (even though I'd like to see BW units make a comeback), I just want Blizzard to stop making gimmicky units, and actually give us units we can actually use.
Terran needs a mobile anti-air unit preferrable air that can take on ALL air-units, to stop mass mass muta but also broodlords and mass void-rays/carriers. The thor is too immobile.
Terran needs a mobile specialist unit preferrably air that can take on ALL other specialist units. The ghost is too immobile and dies so fast. Infestor BL will continue to be a problem otherwise.
Protoss needs a core gateway unit that doesn't suck and can take on every other unit without forcefields but with micro, and can survive on their own. This is so Protoss can get up early expansions without dying instantly to stimmed MMM, and marauders won't be so overpowered early game. Nerfs to stim (50% increase instead of 100%) because of terrible Protoss gateway units, has made TvZ almost impossible late game against zerg.
Zerg is just completely wrong right now.
Zerg needs a mobile anti-air unit early game, the Queen is too immobile and flaky.
Zerg needs options to be aggressive at all stages of the game. Defending and macro-ing up as Zerg makes no sense at all.
Zerg needs overpowered spellcasters and overpowered units (given good flanking and micro) so they can be aggressive with a small amount of defense and continue to make lots of bases and don't die instantly because their scouting options are so bad early game.
Nerf spawn-larva to the ground. Early game Zerg should be strongest early game, not late game. Late game Zerg can make more hatcheries anyway, spawn larva has resulted in some of the worst nerfs to zerg.
Zerg needs lurkers because banelings die, and dieing banelings means lost drones. Its so stupid to see banelings clean up everything only to die to the second push because Zerg couldn't make drones.
I agree with the Terran points about needing a new anti-air unit, Thor really is just too slow and immobile. I don't think Zerg should be made to have big heavy units, IMO zerg should be a race that swarms you with really weak low damage units all the time, but I guess this would be very hard to balance.
I would like the Lurker to return for the Zerg, replace Colossus with some more interesting units *cough* reaver *cough*.
As far as the Terran I think removing the marauder and introducing a beefed up firebat would be great, while reapers could be improved a bit and take the hellions place.
Banelings that morph to scourge, that splash air (would make games really interesting)
IF they bring the lurker back its just going to be broodwar....
Terran will probably get some nerfs, they seem to have basically everything they need
They should definitely make a new tech path (zerg) that makes the roach morph into a (greatly improved) hydralisk or something(maybe lurker?)
Reduce range on roaches
toss could use a stonger ground anti air unit, maybe switch the Immortal role seemingly as it looks like a walking turret...
"This is my secret dream for the expansion :
Protoss : Collossus removed, Reavers added. + Buff for the warp prism. Phoenixes get corsair's attack. (because protoss has no air splash except for archon)
Zerg : Lurker added; + addition of a new spell caster Scourges replace corruptors.
Terran : Land mine upgrade for the reaper; Cliff-walking mechanic removed. Science vessel replaces raven."
Why does everyone feel it just needs to become Broodwar, seriously....
Putting mines on reaper is a strange idea, mech needs mines more than bio and you can't afford reapers when all your gas goes to tanks/thors. And you have to consider detection is not as affordable than in SC1, so giving mines on hellions (or another gasless/spammable unit) may be overpowered, specially in TvT and TvZ. I'd love to have mines, but I don't really see how they could work in the actual state of detection...
Also I think Terran lacks a way to deal with mass mutas, Thors are just too immobile EVEN to defend when you have 3 bases or more. Just give the raven fucking irradiate instead of useless seeker missile that never hits anything, or make Thors able to attack air while being transported by a medivac, now THAT would be badass (but maybe OP).
i know everyone wants lurkers, but i think what zerg actually needs is 2 things:
1) corruptor -> scourge 2) infestor -> defiler
if you had both of these, colossus play would be much more micro intensive
dark swarm doesn't prevent splash damage, so ZvP lategame would mean the colossus isn't your primary damage dealer, it's your ONLY damage dealer
it also provides a good late game counter to force fields, force fields get thrown up and dark swarm is thrown up in reaction
i think the ultimate consequence of this would be that blink stalkers still rule the midgame, but if it reaches hive tech stage, you need to transition into a zealot heavy mix with stalker support to pick off incoming scourge if you want to keep up with colossus play
it might seem like it would break ZvT, but i think that fungal+banelings is probably stronger than swarm+banelings because you can't escape, and hey, if dark swarm was in the game, maybe terran would actually have a reason to research seeker missile
lurkers are cool and i wouldn't object to them, but i don't think they actually cover any of zerg's current weaknesses
I can't image how imba it would be for a toss to just throw down 8 FF's behind your army then roll in the 4-5 reavers to just kill the MM instantly in that balled up small area.
Zerg:
Can you image how much better this game would be right now if Zerg had lurkers to battle vs FF's of Protoss? Also Zerg is defintiley lacking the defiler cloud because they can't break mass defense like mass cannons/toss ball or mass terran defense on 3 base.
Bring back the scourge, that would be awesome. I love watching the BW scourge cloning micro--sooo exciting seeing them do that dance with the science vessels
On August 02 2011 22:38 SecondSandwich wrote: Bring back the scourge, that would be awesome. I love watching the BW scourge cloning micro--sooo exciting seeing them do that dance with the science vessels
no chance they will bring back a unit, might add something similar though
On August 02 2011 22:38 SecondSandwich wrote: Bring back the scourge, that would be awesome. I love watching the BW scourge cloning micro--sooo exciting seeing them do that dance with the science vessels
no chance they will bring back a unit, might add something similar though
On August 02 2011 22:38 SecondSandwich wrote: Bring back the scourge, that would be awesome. I love watching the BW scourge cloning micro--sooo exciting seeing them do that dance with the science vessels
no chance they will bring back a unit, might add something similar though
did you read the interview with browder? they're definitely considering lurkers, seeing as its the most requested unit for the expansion
On August 02 2011 23:36 mattyHs wrote: I really hope protoss get a harass type unit, similar to hellions. Very weak but fast and deal high damage to light.
I hope they won't use the surfer model from the alpha.
Protoss and Zerg both need a unit that is good at controlling Space, like the Siege Tank. Protoss and Zerg both need a air unit that is a caster like the Raven. Terran needs a Firebat unit instead of the Helion. They can have Vultures back.
Id like to see the thor, colossi & corruptor gone and replace with more interesting units. Reavers would give toss some good harass options like in BW, and maybe lurkers would make it possible for zerg to actually delay a push decently. I'm not going to get excited to see reavers or lurkers but I think they are interesting units. Perhaps we will see some kind of new air caster for zerg.
The ground artillery unit for zerg would, in my opinion, be contradictory to the Zerg style. They are supposed to be the swarm, and that kind of unit doesnt seem to fit into that concept.
still hope they aren't insane to remove a unit ! would add a chance that WoL will remain and split the community into half :3 .
Anyway some weapon change upgrade for the thors allowing to hit 4 targets instead of the aoe . No idea about particular new units, though reaver lurker and spidermines won't be any good in sc2 so not them
Spidermines would destroy any ling baneling based strat, and fail against anything else because of the fast shots, also the slower detection is a bit of a problem. Build a factorie with a techlab, to force robo + obs x3.
reaver, useless junk for the mobile toss army, also the damage would be around 30 per shot = meeeh not worth it.
lurker .... not enough range linear attack towards the enemy is crap, marauders would simply pick them appart.
I never actually played broodwar, but I came across this video and man Reavers look like a good harass unit something protoss lacks. Hopefully something like this is released in HotS btw does anyone know the release date of HotS?
On August 03 2011 00:24 FeyFey wrote: still hope they aren't insane to remove a unit ! would add a chance that WoL will remain and split the community into half :3 .
Anyway some weapon change upgrade for the thors allowing to hit 4 targets instead of the aoe . No idea about particular new units, though reaver lurker and spidermines won't be any good in sc2 so not them
Spidermines would destroy any ling baneling based strat, and fail against anything else because of the fast shots, also the slower detection is a bit of a problem. Build a factorie with a techlab, to force robo + obs x3.
reaver, useless junk for the mobile toss army, also the damage would be around 30 per shot = meeeh not worth it.
lurker .... not enough range linear attack towards the enemy is crap, marauders would simply pick them appart.
apparently roaches and banelings have taken the roles of lurkers
the reaver would be sick though, if tosses used warp prisms to carry it around. Splash damage and harass. The only problem would be viking counters that too.
You didn't seriously think people would lug around reavers without shuttles/Wprisms did you?
They wouldn't give the protoss another AOE unit. They couldn't. Then the protoss deathball would be EVEN MORE unstoppable. Can you imagine Reaver/Colossus/HT? Almost unbeatable really.
They said they were looking into a protoss harass unit, so I'm thinking something like the reaper.
I also assume they will give Terran some kind of ground mech unit because players have been complaining that mech is too weak since beta.
I don't think they'll give zerg anything like the lurker because they have been so steadfastly against giving them the lurker (which imo is retarded but whatever)
I do howevre think they will give them some kind of seige unit before BL's that zerg sorely lacks.
My current issue is that with reavers is that there is a necessity for shuttle/warp prism, which probably means a tweaking of the viking because of its ridiculous range it could snipe a prism with a reaver in it, but besides that reaver could serve the harass/aoe necessity protoss neeeds
I'd like to see protoss get a mobile, aoe unit with damage that stacks so having more of them will always scale well.
Also, terran could use a cheap low tier unit with extremely high dps that can be microed to win any small numbers engagement.
Plus, lets give zerg a a unit with low or no range so that it has almost no micro possibilities, but it is so cheap or durable that the potential of having it in large numbers will force your opponent to turtle hard until a suitable counter can be massed.
The one thing I would honestly like to see is a zerg unit that does bonus damage to armored. Take it away from the infestor and give it to another unit, because right now the options for bonus armored units kind of suck in their limits TT
I think Blizzard needs to introduce more dynamic ways of scouting, so in effect reducing the likelihood of people rushing/cheesing and even all ins.
I play Zerg and I'm fed up of roaches and hydras. I think a new unit here needs to be introduced. Lurkers sound cool but I'm thinking something different.
Terran does not and should not have more units introduces. Instead, I hope they introduce different upgrades and design change a few units in form and function.
I feel Protoss also needs 1 or 2 more units and I think something needs to be changed with the Colossus, and I think Immortal needs some kind of ability, such as upgrade-able weapons. Colossus are awesome, but they need design changes in how they work and maybe in form too.
I think zerg could use scourge, they might be op vs colli, but I would like to see. Protoss harass unit. Terran seems complete to me more than the other races, if you must maybe a melee unit but thats not terrans style. The thor is already the goliath imo.
Dustin Browder specifically mentioned the corruptor as having a purpose but not being exciting. He also said in fixing the reaper they "nerfed it into oblivion". David Kim said the overseer was basically a glorified scout. So we can see expect to see these three units changed or even removed.
On August 21 2011 11:28 Jacob666 wrote: an upgrade that will turn a baneling nest into a cannon that can launch banelings if you load the banelings into it 1 at a time with a 4 sec cooldown
On August 02 2011 23:36 mattyHs wrote: I really hope protoss get a harass type unit, similar to hellions. Very weak but fast and deal high damage to light.
I hope they won't use the surfer model from the alpha.
On August 21 2011 11:22 shtdisturbance wrote: I think zerg could use scourge, they might be op vs colli, but I would like to see. Protoss harass unit. Terran seems complete to me more than the other races, if you must maybe a melee unit but thats not terrans style. The thor is already the goliath imo.
Protoss already has harass units i think. Zealots and DT's fill that role quite well.
Toss needs a redesign of their robo units (colo and immortal). Immortal almost never a better choice, and colo does 2 bad things for the game 1. It makes the carrier superfluous. Who wants to wait twice as long and pay more for a unit that ultimately has the same roll as the colossus? 2. The colossus does not reward micro AT ALL. I can micro one just as well as Huk. Make it more APM intensive. Pro's should definitely be able to bring out more potential in such an expensive unit.
And for a protoss harass unit, maybe something fast and rolling that does damage over time to units around it. Like a rolling science vessel that has been irradiated. mmmm And it could have an upgrade that gives it a shield like an immortal that you can toggle on and off, so it could stay useful late game.
I predict a unit for either Terran or Protoss in either Heart of the Swarm or Legacy of the Void that can both attack and create buildings. It won't be able to gather resources, but it'll be able to build anything an SCV or Probe can make.
Most of the commenters here need to go play SC2BW.
Honestly, SC2 Zerg with Lurkers would be scary as hell, but would quell a lot of "Mule OP" cries if Terran has to constantly use scans (although might finally prompt people to build Ravens. It's a swap-to-techlab away, after all)
IMHO Zerg really needs a better Hydralisk, in whatever way. That could mean slightly weaker Roaches which could mean less anti-armor damage for Marauders and Stalkers and Immortals and Tanks.
But I'm back to BW again. I say leave it to Blizzard to try to work it out. Fingers and toes crossed.
I don't think we'll see lurkers in hots because that role will overlap with burrowed banelings. Zerg only has 1 true caster unit right now, so I think there is room for another caster to be introduced to the swarm.
Units I think would help the metagame: Toss: Reaver, Arbiter (replace mothership) Zerg: Lurker, remake corrupter into better AtA Terran: (cant really think of anything)
On July 03 2011 07:02 Shichibukai wrote: I'd like to see a zerg ground unit with a reverse Graviton beam (wc3 crypt fiend web, or raider net) to help with early banshees/void rays. Give it low enough dps/hp to be a waste of resources if it can't use its spell(s) - like a sentry. Maybe have it able to cliffwalk too (or cliff-jump, zerg are agile no? ^^), for maximum void ray tears.
Found this like 60 pages ago, but a reverse graviton would actually be completely awesome, even if it would make my vrays cry.
I predict that protoss will get a scorpion-like unit that shoots scarabs, has an AOE spell that poisons everything in the area doing ten damage per second for 10 seconds, can transform into a mothership with colossus lasers, and is invisible, and can burrow.
Meanwhile, terran will be outfitted with marines that have shotguns that do splash damage in an area slightly smaller than the siege tank splash, and when hit by a melee unit, it sets everything within its firing range on fire.
And the zerg will get an evolution for the zergling: you can split your zergling into two mini zerglings that do zero damage and have 1hp and cannot move or burrow. this will be automatically be activated upon receiving damage of any kind.
i Don't see why the only options you have added are "this race doesn't have a type of unit they had in BW" i'd like to think that blizzard will attempt to think outside of the box and add something that will help move the game forward instead of backwards.
On August 21 2011 14:34 MichaelDonovan wrote: I predict that protoss will get a scorpion-like unit that shoots scarabs, has an AOE spell that poisons everything in the area doing ten damage per second for 10 seconds, can transform into a mothership with colossus lasers, and is invisible, and can burrow.
Meanwhile, terran will be outfitted with marines that have shotguns that do splash damage in an area slightly smaller than the siege tank splash, and when hit by a melee unit, it sets everything within its firing range on fire.
And the zerg will get an evolution for the zergling: you can split your zergling into two mini zerglings that do zero damage and have 1hp and cannot move or burrow. this will be automatically be activated upon receiving damage of any kind.
This is probably my favorite post from the thread.
I feel like trying to guess what they're coming out with is largely ineffective and can be a waste of time. Yes, the poll basically wants a lot of BW units back in the game. I feel like re-introducing all bw units wouldn't necessarily be the way to go, due to the differences in mechanics between the games.
Protoss: Something that has anti air capabilities. Either by normal attack or perhaps a spell type ability like netting air units to the ground so ground can attack it. Kinda energy based net though like the Rhasta in dota2!
Zerg: Definitly something with siege type capabilities, I'm expecting they wont give us our lurkers back but maybe the baneling launcher that someone mentioned before! that would be insane lol. a tower you load up like a dropship but its immobile and can launch banelings like 10-12 range.
Terran: Really not sure what T is missing they seem to have most things covered, take out the hellion or remove its upgrade though that unit is way overpowered for not costing any gas.
Terran -remove energy from thor ( remove strike cannons if you have to) -remove energy from battlecruiser (put back energy on the battlecruiser when yamotoo cannon is researched -a little buff to seeker missile - a new mech unit :D , blizzard surprise me, im sure there are awesome mech stuff you can bring -maybe tamper with the reaper, give it mine traps?
Zerg -maybe try to do something to cut down mass roaches, its pretty boring to see.. maybe make the roach morph into something somewhat like a lurker but uniquely different. -maybe a couple more interesting abilities or upgrades for the zerg -ton down infestor use, i know they want infestors to be used alot, but in everymatchup???, another cool caster for the zerg would be awesome
Protoss - i try my hardest to think of something interesting, but i just got to admit it, the reaver was just that good, a crowd favourite, a crowd pleaser, a WTF moment!, anything that has the potiential to do huge damage and requires alot of skill on top of it = Esports gold. So i just have to say, either the reaver or something that can create that buzz, cause toss doesnt have that "omfg moments" (actually im talking out of my ass, they do have storm drops and warp prisms will be the future of toss harass)
-maybe a little tweek to the carrier, havent seen a single one used yet in a pro game.
On July 04 2011 23:00 DennyR wrote: I dont care wich units they bring they just have to redesign protoss completely.
I dont think Protoss is imbalanced but it is too easy to play. You basically never have to worry about anything and in most cases protoss is the race that dictates the pace of the game. Espacially the colossus.
I think the colossus is the most wrong unit ever in a rts. I mean on paper its great, but it basically is a siegetank that has more dps, is more mobile and you dont have to fucking micro it.
Almost every timing in Protoss related matchups wrap around the colossus wich is just wrong and in combination with sentries on certain maps almost unbeatable if unscouted for 1min too long.
So either cut the colossus out and replace it or change its movementspeed and give the unit a mechanic wich makes it fun and hard to play.
As far as new units go, I want a new mech unit for terran. You are basically limited to 3 bad units and after siege tank nerf mech is pretty much useless.
For Protoss I really want a harass unit. They simply have nothing but DTs wich are more like a gamble.
For Zerg I really want to see something you can morph out of hydras. That would make hyrdas somewhat usefull and if colossi and tanks are out you can just morph them to whatever has more hp or is faster or even flies.
How does a race that plays incredibly defensively because we have the most expensive units in the game and will never come out on top after trading armies control the pace of the game?
I can think of one timing that wraps around a collosus in PvP, and its not really a timing, its just push out when/if you are ahead in a collosus count. I can however think of 4gate timings, phoenix timings, blink timings, dt timings ect ect.
I agree though a protoss collosus doesn't require micro when you stim + 1a your entire terran army into a protoss ball simply to cry about how easy they are to play. You need to stop posting on TL.
As for your insight on Zerg units. How would you feel if you scout HT's vs a protoss and proceed to get ghosts. Only to have those HT's morph into a collosus to counter your counter. That really rewards your opponent for countering you well.
About your last point, thats exactly what archons are... When you scout HT's, terrans have to make maruders to respond to storm because storm rapes marines terribly, but then if toss just morphs then into archons, then you want marines because maruders aren't as good as marines against archons.
Protoss: Since a harassment unit is basically guaranteed, I think they might add something like this cut unit from alpha - basically fast ranged infantry. The idea of +damage with more kills is interesting but might need to be balanced since basically the more workers it kills the faster it keeps killing workers (I'm guessing Blizz would cut this feature). I'm not so sure about the idea of it requiring the twilight council though, since a harass unit would benefit the immobile robo based armies better.
Zerg: Something that can attack while burrowed, since I believe this was mentioned by the developers as a current weakness - maybe something lurker-ish...
Terran: Something to make mech more viable probably, goliath would be nice.
None of the above. I'd rather have them (Blizzard) surprise us with new, unheard-of and interesting units. Just like the transition from SC to BW reveal: "omg! a healer? infinite stim!", "attack while burrowed? sick!" and "mind control!! imba".
So why were those things interesting? because SC never had those kinds of units when BW came out. Same thing can be said about WoL --> HotS. They can return lurkers and reavers and arbiters etc. Yeah, its cool but we've seen them before. They'd just feed the nostalgia in us. IMHO, I'd want new things to play with. Something innovative. Come on Blizz, you can do it!
Zerg: Lurkers. Also I would love too see something better then corruptors for ZvZ air battles. Mutalisks are getting pretty boring.
Protoss: I don't really want to see new units from protoss as much as I would rather Blizzard try more with the current units. The Carrier needs something more too it. It's never used which is a shame. And something more from the MOTHERSHIP And I would love to see something more interesting in PvP then Colossus battles
Terran:I really don't think Terran needs anything at all. Looking at the previous posts alot of people think Terran mech needs new unit. I really don't agree.
On August 21 2011 15:09 Rorix wrote: None of the above. I'd rather have them (Blizzard) surprise us with new, unheard-of and interesting units. Just like the transition from SC to BW reveal: "omg! a healer? infinite stim!", "attack while burrowed? sick!" and "mind control!! imba".
So why were those things interesting? because SC never had those kinds of units when BW came out. Same thing can be said about WoL --> HotS. They can return lurkers and reavers and arbiters etc. Yeah, its cool but we've seen them before. They'd just feed the nostalgia in us. IMHO, I'd want new things to play with. Something innovative. Come on Blizz, you can do it!
This! i want to play a new game! i don't want to play BW anymore, it's not that i have anything against BW but i don't want blizzard to make BW with better graphics i want blizzard to revolutionize the game.
On August 21 2011 15:09 Rorix wrote: None of the above. I'd rather have them (Blizzard) surprise us with new, unheard-of and interesting units. Just like the transition from SC to BW reveal: "omg! a healer? infinite stim!", "attack while burrowed? sick!" and "mind control!! imba".
So why were those things interesting? because SC never had those kinds of units when BW came out. Same thing can be said about WoL --> HotS. They can return lurkers and reavers and arbiters etc. Yeah, its cool but we've seen them before. They'd just feed the nostalgia in us. IMHO, I'd want new things to play with. Something innovative. Come on Blizz, you can do it!
This! i want to play a new game! i don't want to play BW anymore, it's not that i have anything against BW but i don't want blizzard to make BW with better graphics i want blizzard to revolutionize the game.
umm Starcraft 2 is completely different then BW... You clearly never played BW, at least at a competitive level.
On August 21 2011 15:09 Rorix wrote: None of the above. I'd rather have them (Blizzard) surprise us with new, unheard-of and interesting units. Just like the transition from SC to BW reveal: "omg! a healer? infinite stim!", "attack while burrowed? sick!" and "mind control!! imba".
So why were those things interesting? because SC never had those kinds of units when BW came out. Same thing can be said about WoL --> HotS. They can return lurkers and reavers and arbiters etc. Yeah, its cool but we've seen them before. They'd just feed the nostalgia in us. IMHO, I'd want new things to play with. Something innovative. Come on Blizz, you can do it!
This! i want to play a new game! i don't want to play BW anymore, it's not that i have anything against BW but i don't want blizzard to make BW with better graphics i want blizzard to revolutionize the game.
umm Starcraft 2 is completely different then BW... You clearly never played BW, at least at a competitive level.
I understand that. but most of what i am hearing are people asking for things like Goliaths, a "mine laying unit", lurkers, Reavers and other things that were left behind in BW.
Zerg: I think there will be a mid-game siege unit, kinda like the Lurker. They've also kinda hinted at replacing the Corruptor for something with more interesting which i would like. And possible a hive unit?
Protoss: A harassment unit is probably the most likely and atm the most lacking thing for Protoss. Could be the Reaver, but i expect something new and cool. Also perhaps another Ground to air unit? Personally i'd like them to replace the Colossi with something more micro intensive and fun to use, but i dont really see tht happening. Or a change to the mothership.
Terran: Terran is the most complete race right now so i don't see a lot of stuff they could add. But i think the most likely one would be a new mech unit, something tht makes Mech viable in non-mirror. Replacing the helion with vultures would be awesome but probably not gonna happen. Maybe replace the Reaper with something else.
On August 21 2011 15:09 Rorix wrote: None of the above. I'd rather have them (Blizzard) surprise us with new, unheard-of and interesting units. Just like the transition from SC to BW reveal: "omg! a healer? infinite stim!", "attack while burrowed? sick!" and "mind control!! imba".
So why were those things interesting? because SC never had those kinds of units when BW came out. Same thing can be said about WoL --> HotS. They can return lurkers and reavers and arbiters etc. Yeah, its cool but we've seen them before. They'd just feed the nostalgia in us. IMHO, I'd want new things to play with. Something innovative. Come on Blizz, you can do it!
This! i want to play a new game! i don't want to play BW anymore, it's not that i have anything against BW but i don't want blizzard to make BW with better graphics i want blizzard to revolutionize the game.
umm Starcraft 2 is completely different then BW... You clearly never played BW, at least at a competitive level.
I understand that. but most of what i am hearing are people asking for things like Goliaths, a "mine laying unit", lurkers, Reavers and other things that were left behind in BW.
You just said you don't want to play a BW with better graphics... but you are asking them to put Broodwar units in the game... People are going to have to understand that the units blizzard adds if they add any at all will not be that good. The game is pretty close to balanced. You might see some Campaign stuff... but other then that no,
yes but the vast majority of those people... dont understand Starcraft 2 at a high level. If protoss gets a harrasing unit when both Zerg and Terran need to be at a economic advantage before the late game, the game will actually be broken,
Protoss already have the abbility though... HT drops killing a entire mineral line with a insanely fast warp prism...
Zerg will probably get some kind of tier 3 / tier 2 unit that doesn't actually get destroyed by Snipe from ghosts.
I didn't see a raider unit for Protoss, like the hellion or mutalisk. That's what I predict is likely, but there's no option for that in the poll. The closest is cliff hopper, but protoss has one: the colossus, and that's entirely different. It could also use a tweak to improve early game scouting before robo/hallucinate (since warp gate is mandatory before hallucinate).
Terran needs a fix for reapers or replacing them for something else, they're okay late game as a building destroyer (qxc in particular is awesome with them), and they are an okay early game scout (something terran doesn't need anyway, scans baby), but that's about it.
Zerg could do with switching the hydra and the roach and modifying the stats to make that appropriate. They could also do with a better air to air unit than the corrupter, that thing is a joke.
Zerg and Protoss need more utility upgrades available to them. Terran has far more upgrades that you can research (not counting +1 weapon/armor/shield upgrades) than the other races do. Things like building armor and +1 range to PF's/turrets are quite underestimated.
On August 21 2011 15:09 Rorix wrote: None of the above. I'd rather have them (Blizzard) surprise us with new, unheard-of and interesting units. Just like the transition from SC to BW reveal: "omg! a healer? infinite stim!", "attack while burrowed? sick!" and "mind control!! imba".
So why were those things interesting? because SC never had those kinds of units when BW came out. Same thing can be said about WoL --> HotS. They can return lurkers and reavers and arbiters etc. Yeah, its cool but we've seen them before. They'd just feed the nostalgia in us. IMHO, I'd want new things to play with. Something innovative. Come on Blizz, you can do it!
This! i want to play a new game! i don't want to play BW anymore, it's not that i have anything against BW but i don't want blizzard to make BW with better graphics i want blizzard to revolutionize the game.
umm Starcraft 2 is completely different then BW... You clearly never played BW, at least at a competitive level.
I understand that. but most of what i am hearing are people asking for things like Goliaths, a "mine laying unit", lurkers, Reavers and other things that were left behind in BW.
You just said you don't want to play a BW with better graphics... but you are asking them to put Broodwar units in the game... People are going to have to understand that the units blizzard adds if they add any at all will not be that good. The game is pretty close to balanced. You might see some Campaign stuff... but other then that no,
yes but the vast majority of those people... dont understand Starcraft 2 at a high level. If protoss gets a harrasing unit when both Zerg and Terran need to be at a economic advantage before the late game, the game will actually be broken,
Protoss already have the abbility though... HT drops killing a entire mineral line with a insanely fast warp prism...
Zerg will probably get some kind of tier 3 / tier 2 unit that doesn't actually get destroyed by Snipe from ghosts.
Storm drops suck, they're expensive as all hell, and a single storm doesn't even kill workers because they don't sit in it, and storm only hits half the mineral line. It takes 4 storms to clear a mineral line, and you probably won't get them all. Compared to hellion drops it isn't even close.
You're also wrong if you think terran and zerg NEED an economic advantage to beat protoss. It helps with a lot of styles, but there are some really good and strong styles that result in zerg winning on equal bases (yay infestors).
Protoss with reavers and colossus with the way units clump in the game at the moment would mean there would be no point at all in playing any other race than protoss...
Mr Browder told us in an interview that they are looking for raider (harass) type of unit for protoss, something complementary too or replacement of overlord and corruptor, and that they might not even add a new unit to terran because the race already feels so complete.
On August 21 2011 18:38 Whitewing wrote: I didn't see a raider unit for Protoss, like the hellion or mutalisk. That's what I predict is likely, but there's no option for that in the poll. The closest is cliff hopper, but protoss has one: the colossus, and that's entirely different. It could also use a tweak to improve early game scouting before robo/hallucinate (since warp gate is mandatory before hallucinate). .
On August 21 2011 15:09 Rorix wrote: None of the above. I'd rather have them (Blizzard) surprise us with new, unheard-of and interesting units. Just like the transition from SC to BW reveal: "omg! a healer? infinite stim!", "attack while burrowed? sick!" and "mind control!! imba".
So why were those things interesting? because SC never had those kinds of units when BW came out. Same thing can be said about WoL --> HotS. They can return lurkers and reavers and arbiters etc. Yeah, its cool but we've seen them before. They'd just feed the nostalgia in us. IMHO, I'd want new things to play with. Something innovative. Come on Blizz, you can do it!
This! i want to play a new game! i don't want to play BW anymore, it's not that i have anything against BW but i don't want blizzard to make BW with better graphics i want blizzard to revolutionize the game.
umm Starcraft 2 is completely different then BW... You clearly never played BW, at least at a competitive level.
I understand that. but most of what i am hearing are people asking for things like Goliaths, a "mine laying unit", lurkers, Reavers and other things that were left behind in BW.
You just said you don't want to play a BW with better graphics... but you are asking them to put Broodwar units in the game... People are going to have to understand that the units blizzard adds if they add any at all will not be that good. The game is pretty close to balanced. You might see some Campaign stuff... but other then that no,
yes but the vast majority of those people... dont understand Starcraft 2 at a high level. If protoss gets a harrasing unit when both Zerg and Terran need to be at a economic advantage before the late game, the game will actually be broken,
Protoss already have the abbility though... HT drops killing a entire mineral line with a insanely fast warp prism...
Zerg will probably get some kind of tier 3 / tier 2 unit that doesn't actually get destroyed by Snipe from ghosts.
Storm drops suck, they're expensive as all hell, and a single storm doesn't even kill workers because they don't sit in it, and storm only hits half the mineral line. It takes 4 storms to clear a mineral line, and you probably won't get them all. Compared to hellion drops it isn't even close.
You're also wrong if you think terran and zerg NEED an economic advantage to beat protoss. It helps with a lot of styles, but there are some really good and strong styles that result in zerg winning on equal bases (yay infestors).
1 Storm drops do not suck... are they guarentee'd to do damage? no... If your opponenet doesn't respond fast enough he loses 30 scvs... kind of like Terran dropps sept we don't drop a aoe caster...
You are not suppose to compare hellion to HT... This is what im talking about. Terran is the harassing race. Protoss usually try to wait for a 200 army and then walk out and kill the terran. Obviously they pressure during that time while trying to build up their deathball.
This is not whining, its fact TvP that Terran does need it against Protoss, even MC himself said "Terran's have 20 minutes to beat a protoss." Theres a reason Terran's are doing 1/2 base allin's in the GSL over the last 2 months. Protoss just becomes way to efficient. So using the early/mid game strenght of T, you need to either Finish the job or take some kind of economic lead, via drops, or expanding. Zerg you need a different kind of advantage, more like "Security" then anything else.
I dont want to see anymore "grunt" units like Marine, Hydra, Stalker, Zealot, Ling etc, basically units who just fight and only some have a ability to use (Like Blink).
Lurker and Reaver are the only units i truly miss, both are DPS units but they require micro to use properly and it gives Zerg a true cloak unit. As for Terran i hope they get rid of the Reaper and instead put something else in, it does not have to come from Rax, could be another Mech unit
For Protoss an air unit which could do AoE damage would be ideal i think. It would make stargate much more viable option considering that dealing with mass muta can be a problem if you open stargate if you don't have perfect phoenix micro.
On August 02 2011 23:36 mattyHs wrote: I really hope protoss get a harass type unit, similar to hellions. Very weak but fast and deal high damage to light.
I hope they won't use the surfer model from the alpha.
remove warp tech (promotes cheese and makes harass defence too easy without positioning) remove colossus make psi storm deal dmg instead ot tickle add reaver change zealot charge --> speed make phoenix not auto fire make toss not able to spam ff as soon as they are out of position.
remove roaches remove dmg from fungal growth or significant nerf add lurker or another defensive unit
general: make supply cap higher or make worker saturation occur earlier or fewer patches per base. Too much supply stuck in workers leaving a silly maxed army.
Remove every single destructable rock on top of expansion and ad them in key locations on the map. Vary the rocks like stacking on some places to require aoe dmg and mineral blocking on other areas. Make maxed zerg unable to fight a terran or protoss army with an even trade.
Zerg: - add an aircaster (and remove some abilities from the infestor) - add a luker type unit - change the roach/hydralisk combo (abilities too overlapping) - add a cliffhopper to tier1 weak but able to do good scouting
Terran(seem to be quite complete allready):
- change thor to a more goliath role(increase mech usage for more matchups) - change EMP in a single target mana drain and add another ability for AOE shield damage - update raven with a new spell(something like for example shooting spiders that detonate)
Protoss:
- Remove sentry and change stalker/zealot accordingly to handle early pressure - add a cliffhopper to tier1 weak but able to do good scouting - Revamp immortal (more range, faster, cheaper, ability to produce in mass, and less damage. Something in the lines of the maurader, but must be weak against lings and marines but strong to maurader and roach/hydralisk) - add harrash unit to stop in a warpprim - Add High Templar to twilight council and add forcefield to HT also increase movement speed - Remove DT shrine and add to templar archives (still has storm research), also abiltiy to morph into archons requires templar archives. - make carriers usefull - Add air caster - remove mothership and replace with abilities of the aircaster and with something you can learn at at the nexus for example that you can recall where you have pylon power but it cost full energy of a nexus.
Overall a lot on the list and a lot are no really feable, he but someone can still hope
On August 21 2011 20:51 Dataleif wrote: remove warp tech (promotes cheese and makes harass defence too easy without positioning) remove colossus make psi storm deal dmg instead ot tickle add reaver change zealot charge --> speed make phoenix not auto fire make toss not able to spam ff as soon as they are out of position.
remove roaches remove dmg from fungal growth or significant nerf add lurker or another defensive unit
general: make supply cap higher or make worker saturation occur earlier or fewer patches per base. Too much supply stuck in workers leaving a silly maxed army.
Remove every single destructable rock on top of expansion and ad them in key locations on the map. Vary the rocks like stacking on some places to require aoe dmg and mineral blocking on other areas. Make maxed zerg unable to fight a terran or protoss army with an even trade.
Check out Brood War, you should like this game. Seriously, I don't think you proposed changes make any sense. Who really wants Brood War with better graphics? What we need is new and fresh elements for the game, it needs to evolve. No stepping backwards.
On August 21 2011 20:51 Dataleif wrote: remove warp tech (promotes cheese and makes harass defence too easy without positioning) remove colossus make psi storm deal dmg instead ot tickle add reaver change zealot charge --> speed make phoenix not auto fire make toss not able to spam ff as soon as they are out of position.
remove roaches remove dmg from fungal growth or significant nerf add lurker or another defensive unit
general: make supply cap higher or make worker saturation occur earlier or fewer patches per base. Too much supply stuck in workers leaving a silly maxed army.
Remove every single destructable rock on top of expansion and ad them in key locations on the map. Vary the rocks like stacking on some places to require aoe dmg and mineral blocking on other areas. Make maxed zerg unable to fight a terran or protoss army with an even trade.
Check out Brood War, you should like this game. Seriously, I don't think you proposed changes make any sense. Who really wants Brood War with better graphics? What we need is new and fresh elements for the game, it needs to evolve. No stepping backwards.
Are newer always better? Changing things just for the sake of change isn't always the best idea. Not that his list has any chance in hell of actually happening, and i don't agree about all of it but I hope they go in that direction.
yeah ofc I understand it wont happen as well it's just a wishlist. Really what Im most interested in is emphazising positioning and not really the units. I want one race to be superior to the other in a stand up battle.
I love how all the top ones are just ones from Broodwar. For me I went for a "cliff-jumping" unit for Protoss, not because I think that they will actually get a unit that can necessarily jump cliffs but I think they will be given a unit intended for harrass, like a cliff-jumper. For Zerg I chose attacks while burrowed, purely because both Terran and Protoss have units that attack while invisible and the Zerg not having this feels like they are missing out on something, however I think the ground artillary is fairly likely too. For Terran I went melee ground because they don't have one but I don't think Terran needs any new units and I think Browder even said they were having trouble giving Terran a new unit.
I play Protoss so I know less about Terran and Zerg, so I have few ideas with Protoss. - Add a dedicated harassment unit (Need explanation?) - Add ability for chronoboost to use on small packs of units to make them 50% faster and shoot 50% faster for short time, add expensive "Recall" type spell to the nexus used from. (To be able to somewhat compete with Zerg and Terran in small unit fights, has a side effect of making PvP more cut-throat, but makes for interesting strategic use of Nexus energy: more units vs short burst of damage) - Make Immortals shoot targets in a line similar to Hellions (Upgrade?) to make them more usefull. - Make Carriers scary: (Add more interceptor capacity/Add suicide type aircraft to choose between this and interceptors/buff carrier range/something else) make them high risk to tech to but high reward.
im pretty sure that they just might fuck terran in this expansion and not add any units for them but theyve said that most likley they will add some sort of artillery unit for zerg and maybe some sort of harrasy type unit for protoss
-change thor. Idk, the thor just doesn't feel like it has a role to me. I mean it's great for mech plays and stuff, which is why it should be changed not re[placed, but I just feel like the thor isn't... needed. I really don't know how to describe it, but thors IMO need rebalancing.
-buff carriers/battlecruisers. The hard counter available for each race against them makes them absolutely useless and not worth the investment, no matter how cool they are.
-give protoss a harassment unit. Everybody knows that protoss can't harass their opponents without a HUGE amount of investment (dts). Considering how gas intensive protoss is, you just can't squeeze in a harassment unit like that.
-give zerg a space control unit. I played the sc2bw custom maps (on unlim select, automine, smartcast) and zerg just felt so much cooler. Hydralisks were already awesome, and you could turn them into the best unit blizz ever created; the lurker. Now, the actual lurker unit wouldn't make sense balance-wise for zerg, but some kind of space control unit for zerg is much needed. A zergtank? lol
On August 21 2011 21:31 laonda wrote: Hereby my whish list for christmas
Zerg: - add an aircaster (and remove some abilities from the infestor) - add a luker type unit - change the roach/hydralisk combo (abilities too overlapping) - add a cliffhopper to tier1 weak but able to do good scouting
Terran(seem to be quite complete allready):
- change thor to a more goliath role(increase mech usage for more matchups) - change EMP in a single target mana drain and add another ability for AOE shield damage - update raven with a new spell(something like for example shooting spiders that detonate)
Protoss:
- Remove sentry and change stalker/zealot accordingly to handle early pressure - add a cliffhopper to tier1 weak but able to do good scouting - Revamp immortal (more range, faster, cheaper, ability to produce in mass, and less damage. Something in the lines of the maurader, but must be weak against lings and marines but strong to maurader and roach/hydralisk) - add harrash unit to stop in a warpprim - Add High Templar to twilight council and add forcefield to HT also increase movement speed - Remove DT shrine and add to templar archives (still has storm research), also abiltiy to morph into archons requires templar archives. - make carriers usefull - Add air caster - remove mothership and replace with abilities of the aircaster and with something you can learn at at the nexus for example that you can recall where you have pylon power but it cost full energy of a nexus.
Overall a lot on the list and a lot are no really feable, he but someone can still hope
First priority: The collosus has to go for sure and add a reaver-esque unit which actually required some skill to use instead of a A-move unit. Add lurkers and the Dark Swarm ability, which makes for awesome gameplay combo. Add some kind of minelayer to the terran arsenal.
Second: Remove/replace the marauder, remove/replace the overseer, remove/replace the corruptor, remove/replace the immortal, remove/replace the mothership,
On August 21 2011 23:25 Aiurr wrote: Z: remove banelings, add lurkers, remove creep speed bonus, give scourge P: remove warp-gate tech, buff warp-prism, add reavers, nerf immortal shields T: remove reapers, remove seeker missile from raven, add golliaths and a mine-layer ability for any unit
Just no...they will not change it more into SC:BW. Think people know now that SC2 is different. Removing Warp-Gate tech now would ruin the game, I can not see banelings ever being removed or them adding the reaver with the collosus in.
Think 3 new things that hasnt been seen would be so much better than just bringing in old units. Maybe even new builds changing up the tech paths. But either way they will take SC2 forward and not a step back.
Zerg: Need some invisible attacking unit for sure ,every other rases got them. So i think like the reset lurker , but from other side IMO roches ( for tanking ) infestors + fungal to hold army , then mass borrow lurkers will be IMBA for sure . Just imagine protoss ball hold in place whit fungal , and then like 10 lukrekrs borrow , to hit all units in ball.. IMBA , and im zerg player
Or maby if phenix will be can lifting borrow units .. dunno
Protoss: I know prottos players gonna hate for for that post , but imo toss have it all now , like i write maby phenix that can lift borrow units , or void prims whit some kind of mini racall , but no new units .
Terran : Terran in good to imo .. maby take back heal ability from medivacs .. and add medics .. but nothing more .
On August 21 2011 23:25 Aiurr wrote: Z: remove banelings, add lurkers, remove creep speed bonus, give scourge P: remove warp-gate tech, buff warp-prism, add reavers, nerf immortal shields T: remove reapers, remove seeker missile from raven, add golliaths and a mine-layer ability for any unit
Just no...they will not change it more into SC:BW. Think people know now that SC2 is different. Removing Warp-Gate tech now would ruin the game, I can not see banelings ever being removed or them adding the reaver with the collosus in.
Think 3 new things that hasnt been seen would be so much better than just bringing in old units. Maybe even new builds changing up the tech paths. But either way they will take SC2 forward and not a step back.
If you remove warp-gate tech along with creep speed bonus and give scourge to the zerg, I think it would be a pretty balanced and smart step back imho. I think these mobility issues for protoss and zerg are keeping the game from being improved. If they won't change/remove it, then terran will always be a turtle race.
edit: and if terran won't get better mobility nor zerg / protoss get their mobility nerfed then blizzard will never be able to nerf terran units. If you want to nerf terran you first need to give it some mobility or nerf warpgate and creep speed imho.
For protoss - Remove DT and replace it with the reaper-dt. It's fast, it's invisible and it can jump cliffs without vision. It's the most infuriating harrassment unit Blizzard has ever made and it fits protoss perfectly.
Zerg - Add lurker. It can move while burrowed and doesn't have splash damage, once again proving Blizzard completely missed the point about what made the unit great (setup time and splash) - Merge the corruptor and the overseer. Blizzard gets lazy and simply opts to combine two boring units in the hope that that might make them one exciting unit. - Speed upgrade for the hydra and ultra that makes them faster off creep. These are hive-tech upgrades.
Terran - Speed upgrade for raven's hunter-seeker missile
oh btw, I think zerg shouldn't have lurkers AND banelings... it's way too much splash damage imho. So if Blizzard would want to add lurkers they would have to nerf/remove banelings OR make lurkers do damage to a single target only.
OK, based on what I would do: PROTOSS: Ground artillery unit. Take out collosi. Create a ground unit that can not jump cliffs. This unit is slightly faster than the immortal and has about the same range as a roach. Maybe more? It does a similar attack as the collosus but only really affects light units (like 12(+5) damage or something). Immortal range has an upgrade to make it +1 to make it more of a siege type unit, which it sort of is damage-wise.
ZERG: Air caster unit. No units removed. This unit is similar to the queen as it has no main attack, but could have a spell that affects mechanical units (irridiate for mech?), or a spell that is similar to disruption web, etc. Infestor loses 2 of the following: -Some life -Fungal growth damage -Neural parasite To make it less powerful in conjunction with the broodlord/to keep it from overlapping with the new spell caster. Changeling has a cast range of 5-6 and is automatically attacked by enemy units. This makes it a lot more exciting to cast changeling and gives it more opportunities. For instance, you can use it to draw tank fire, or more easily scout an opponent as long as you don't get near enemy units.
TERRAN: Infantry type unit. Mech is complete. Air is complete. edit: argued with my firebat type unit idea. Face it, the vulture and hellion will not co-exist. The new unit is armored and can use stim packs. It does slightly more damage to light units and has a low range. (Firebat type unit maybe?) Reaper does extra damage to biological units instead of light units.
On August 21 2011 21:31 laonda wrote: Hereby my whish list for christmas
Zerg: - add an aircaster (and remove some abilities from the infestor) - add a luker type unit - change the roach/hydralisk combo (abilities too overlapping) - add a cliffhopper to tier1 weak but able to do good scouting
Terran(seem to be quite complete allready):
- change thor to a more goliath role(increase mech usage for more matchups) - change EMP in a single target mana drain and add another ability for AOE shield damage - update raven with a new spell(something like for example shooting spiders that detonate)
Protoss:
- Remove sentry and change stalker/zealot accordingly to handle early pressure - add a cliffhopper to tier1 weak but able to do good scouting - Revamp immortal (more range, faster, cheaper, ability to produce in mass, and less damage. Something in the lines of the maurader, but must be weak against lings and marines but strong to maurader and roach/hydralisk) - add harrash unit to stop in a warpprim - Add High Templar to twilight council and add forcefield to HT also increase movement speed - Remove DT shrine and add to templar archives (still has storm research), also abiltiy to morph into archons requires templar archives. - make carriers usefull - Add air caster - remove mothership and replace with abilities of the aircaster and with something you can learn at at the nexus for example that you can recall where you have pylon power but it cost full energy of a nexus.
Overall a lot on the list and a lot are no really feable, he but someone can still hope
Are you a protoss by any chance?
Offcourse and i am bias as hell, like mentioned it is a wish list What blizzard really going to do is probably add a harrash unit to protoss like they mentioned. Do some tweeking to terran and mostly focus on the zerg.
Protoss gets a unit like a Medic, but instead of healing it increase shield regeneration in battle.
Zerg will get a siege unit like a mini nydus worm, but instead of vomiting units, it vomits a spine crawler at the "head."
Terran will get a transformer ability, that allows them to research certain combinations. Like 1 thor and 2 hellions "morph" into a thor with roller skates to boost speed! Or 2 reapers and 1 viking "morph" into a flying unit that shoots air and the reaper ground attack. Oh, it would be sweet.
Is this supposed to be us guessing what Blizzard will do or what we want them to do? Because I can honestly say I have no idea what is going through Blizzard's mind. They talk about boring units I guess, so my best guess on what they want is something exciting, like a unit that recreates destructible rocks at choke points, or having SCVs build them. It will replace the bunker and it will be 125% refundable.
As for what I want to see: Terran No new units. At the moment, all Terran units have viable uses. The only units that don't get much pro play relatively are the Raven, the Battlecruiser, and the reaper, and I've recently seen a bunch of TvTs where Battlecruisers and Ravens factor in. But I would like to see Reapers used more, so maybe I would like something like the way Medics and Firebats worked in BW. Once you build an engineering bay, you can build reapers, and then have the reapers be able to built two at a time from a Reactor. Maybe then you will be able to see Reaper drops? I don't know, I'm sure someone will be able to theorycraft better than I can on why that would be terrible. Make the Seeker Missile faster. Make EMP not detect invisible units.
Protoss Protoss as well I feel is pretty good in terms of the units it has. I feel like they could use more tweaks, such as making the Colossus micro-able, maybe by having to aim its attack, I don't know. Carriers are pretty useless, so that should be fixed. Also, Motherships, how do they work? I think I would like to see sentries start out with hallucinate instead of guardian shield, and have them research guardian shield.
Zerg Zerg needs something like the lurker. It doesn't have to be the lurker, but they have no cloakable units as is, and nothing that attack from underground. The lurker makes sense since it is a unit everyone is familiar with, but it can be called something new if Blizzard is bothered so much about the fact that they would be reusing a BW unit. I would also like to see the Hydralisks made beefier or faster. Something to make them a better choice than roaches. They can even be 3 supply if it makes them too powerful and it would still be better than how useless they seem now. I would also like to see Overlord Speed be a hatchery tech upgrade, but maybe make Overlords have less health, like 150 health but with 1 armor starting off. Less health, or give Zerg a dedicated dropping unit. I would also like to see the Ultralisk do bonus damage against buildings. I don't know if that's useful or not, but it just feels right.
All of that is just a wishlist though, and the only real thing that the game needs is the lurker. That and EMP being unable to see invisible units.
You guys live out of nostalgia, bring back this, bring back that, what about let Blizzard do their job and create new cool units instead of making the game into a BW clone ?
I like the Thor as it is, fuck goliaths. Add mines + late game upgrades to reaper.
Lurkers are cools, but I'm sure Blizzard can add something with a similar role without overlaping the banelings. (about ppl wanting to remove banelings... are you insane ? it's one of the best new units)
I admit reavers were cool, but I hope to see something new.
Why does everyone just want old sc1 units? tbh if all the new units were just a copy of sc1 i would be veeery disappointed
just because zerg needs a ground control unit (if BLIZZ really thinks they need it not the players) i hope they think of something new and interresting not just add the lurker the lurker was fun and awesome but this is sc2 not sc1.1
i'm not really sure what terran would need as a new unit but maybe tweek some old ones and bring in some new upgrades idk
zerg in my opinion needs the roach and infestor nerfed hard and given a specific use if that happens there's room for new units. right now the roach/infestor is just too good and theres no room for new stuff a reworked corruptor and maybe a reworked overseer (into an actual air caster) would be nice for Z maybe change the corruptor so that they evolve from mutas. so that mutas are like the blueprint of zerg air units (being able to attack both gruond and air) and can evolve into corruptors for only antiair and broods for only antiground just some thoughts :>
for P a harrass unit something thats worth dropping with a warpprism maybe a bit like a reaper (pretty fast, high dmg against light of maybe a bit aoe dmg, and low hp) but with some nice fresh mechanik (maybe the muta attack turned around to some sort of chain lightning with x jumps and each jump has higher dmg, so they suck for targetfire but own against a lot of low hp units) the stalker would need to be adjusted as well then. to be better against armor and a speed nerf perhaps (blink would still be good against air harrass and the new unit is fast aswell and is good against low hp units dropps and air units such as mutas)
in short: i hope the new units aren't just a copy of sc1 units. new things with new mechanics <3
Given the way the single-player campaign has been presented in the gameplay teaser, I think that most of the new units will be upgrades to existing units, like the Lurker (which I can see returning).
As for what I'd like to see? Well I'm a gold league scrub, so take from these suggestions what you will.
- A unit that discourages the use of the deathball due it being powerful when properly microed alone or in a small group, but bad as part of a deathball for some reason (Think Reaver).
- I think terran has a hell of a lot of tools already. I'd like to see the Reaper given a real purpose, or have it replaced by something else though - currently it's possibly the least used unit in the game.
- Honestly I have no idea what would be a good change to zerg - I hate playing against zerg because I suck at it, so I'd like to see a unit that they were forced to make and which also instantly lost them the game...
The sc2 baneling is equivalent to the old infested Terran. the infestors fungal is equivalent to the old defilers plague. theres nothing new that is comparable to to the lurker, which was a must for zerg against infantry, since banelings are really not cost effective when the Terran stutters. we need a good defensive unit
On August 22 2011 00:41 drcatellino wrote: You guys live out of nostalgia, bring back this, bring back that, what about let Blizzard do their job and create new cool units instead of making the game into a BW clone ?
If it's something new like Roach or Marauder i say bring back the old stuff. SC2 melee is sooooo boring i really hope the expansions make it more interesting.
its not about bringin in "old" units. Each unit covers a strategic role. The lurker was used to control space and block ramps. You needed detection and a decent army in order to get rid of them. Also you could delay attacks by slowly moving back using lurkers unborrow-move-back-burrow.
Currently there is no unit in the zerg arsenal which enables you to controls space. The spine is somewhat similar in role, but it does not have splash damage, is much weaker, can only be built on creep and moves extremely slow without creep, can't be dropped from an ovie or nydus. Edit: and takes ages top build, and takes ages to borrow and is visible.
On August 22 2011 00:41 drcatellino wrote: You guys live out of nostalgia, bring back this, bring back that, what about let Blizzard do their job and create [b]new cool units[b/] instead of making the game into a BW clone ?
I like the Thor as it is, fuck goliaths. Add mines + late game upgrades to reaper.
Lurkers are cools, but I'm sure Blizzard can add something with a similar role without overlaping the banelings. (about ppl wanting to remove banelings... are you insane ? it's one of the best new units)
I admit reavers were cool, but I hope to see something new.
That philosophy, doesn't work. Goliaths still have far more utility compared to the bulky Thor as we've seen in mech builds and the campaign. Hell, its rare you see them use those cannons too. -_-
Thors are gimmicky as fuck. Mines and upgrades to the reaper? Sort of like their jetpack speed? I don't know man, that sounds awfully like vultures to me especially with their attacks. I thought you said you wanted something new?
There are too many abilities underused in SC2 and part of the reason for that is they don't really have a place in the game as of yet. A lot of units need a redesign.
See. Just like I said.
Here's my philosophy when it comes to design.
Utility first. How does it effect xyz. Where does it fit into the match-up. How much supply should it cost? Resource cost. Opportunity cost? Build time.
Protoss will probably get a harassment unit like the Reaper or Hellion. Anyone remember that unit that flew on a hoverboard and shot electricity that Blizzard tested before SCII was released? I think it was called a Soul Hunter, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was put into HotS.
Zerg will probably get some midgame unit like the Lurker though I doubt that Blizzard would add the Lurker back in the game, so I'm expecting something new. Maybe a unit that launches acid blobs that has splash damage?
I have no idea what Terran would get. Maybe remove the Vikings landing ability and put a unit like the Goliath in the game. This could make mech extremely powerful though, giving Terran the option to get Siege Tanks and Goliaths or Siege Tanks and Hellions to battle Zerg. I honestly do not think that Terran needs a minelayer unit. Yes, it would be cool, but come on? They already have so many cool abilities.
On July 02 2011 20:17 sabas123 wrote: P: i realy am not sure what they are gonna put into, but i hope there gonna do a reaver like untie Z: LURKER!!! T: a better anti air unit besides from marines
I agree with this completely. But I really want those units in game, as opposed as thinking bliz will add them.
Hmm I think the biggest thing Zerg needs is a tier 1 air attacking unit. Although they do have the queen, they can't really be used in an offensive manner. Marines and stalkers both can be used Offensivley and can be used to support early attacks. I think that putting the hydra back to tIer 1 would allow Zerg to actually be aggressive instead of just sittin back in the early game. Hydras could be nerfd and make the range upgrade require lair.
New changes to the bunker incoming, it is now able to lift up and fight from the air while carrying units, salvage reduced to 65% to keep it balanced with the new addition.
Having a weak ranged high dps anti-light unit (similar to reapers) produced from the gateway will make warp prisms an instrumental part of a protoss' gameplay.
I don't think the lurker is a good idea since its role to control space is shared by banelings. However I believe zerg can use a unit which punishes players without cloak. Maybe an upgrade to allow banelings burrow move? Zerg also have room for some anti-armored unit.
Almost all terran units have does their job exceptionally well. Reapers are somewhat overshadowed by hellions except for early scouting. Terrans can use a melee-ish unit (firebat? How about instead of flamethrower they get a shotgun?). Terrans can also use another caster unit.
On August 22 2011 01:13 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: its not about bringin in "old" units. Each unit covers a strategic role. The lurker was used to control space and block ramps. You needed detection and a decent army in order to get rid of them. Also you could delay attacks by slowly moving back using lurkers unborrow-move-back-burrow.
Currently there is no unit in the zerg arsenal which enables you to controls space. The spine is somewhat similar in role, but it does not have splash damage, is much weaker, can only be built on creep and moves extremely slow without creep, can't be dropped from an ovie or nydus. Edit: and takes ages top build, and takes ages to borrow and is visible.
You have a point about lurkers... but the poll shows that people really are voting just for old units. Reavers and goliaths are not needed at all.
I find it more interesting to think about what units will be removed. I really hope that those units are : Reaper, Thor, Corruptor, the Weak-Hydra, Void Ray
On August 22 2011 00:52 The Touch wrote: - Honestly I have no idea what would be a good change to zerg - I hate playing against zerg because I suck at it, so I'd like to see a unit that they were forced to make and which also instantly lost them the game...
Hydralisks against Protoss are pretty much that. People make them against VR's but when Colo come out they become supply sinks. That's why Roach/Hydra/Corruptor has lost out recently.
It is obvious that the polls just show what people want mostly added to this game rather than what is really "a strategic whole to be filled with a new unit".
They will be adding 2 units to Zerg. One of these will be a Hive unit, and I would guess a caster. The other will be another niche support unit/harass unit.
They will add 1-2 units for Toss. One will be harass, and the other will probably be a mid-tier GtA unit. I think the harass will be an air unit.
They will add 1 unit to Terran. This unit will likely replace Reapers. It will be a support unit. I would guess that it would be a Factory unit. It is possible they will also replace Thors/Vikings with a ground unit that can handle that role, and add in a fast AtA unit for Terran.
I remember Blizzard devs making a specific comment about wanting Zerg to have a unit that can attack while 'cloaked'. They are trying to not use the lurker, but hinted that they may end up feeling compelled to. jm2c
They will add 1 unit to Terran. This unit will likely replace Reapers. It will be a support unit. I would guess that it would be a Factory unit. It is possible they will also replace Thors/Vikings with a ground unit that can handle that role, and add in a fast AtA unit for Terran.
I think the Thor/viking role is already taken care of by marines??
we want our lurkers back pl0x. Zerg has nothing to hold down a position. In addition they only need to reactivate the lurker as it is in the game code but they took it out do to underuse in pre-beta testing 0.o because clearly roaches are as good as hold lurkers /sarcasm.
I just want lurkers as Zerg. I'm really tired of having to get infestors every ZvT because of how cost ineffecient banes are against marines. That and Zerg needs a unit that can hold "space" before brood lords.
im also tagging along the lines that zerg needs a unit that can punish a player without detection and gain a huge advantage in a choke. It sounds like we all just want the lurker back because its cool but if you think about it, its exactly what sc2 zerg is missing
just replace burrowed movement for roaches with an upgrade for lurkers, it fits in perfectly. I would be happy if they removed banelings as they rely on terran being bad to work well but are overpowered in zvp as bombs from overlords. Right now zerg lacks any way of slowing a terran push aside from hoping they left their ramp open and built no turrets. lurkers would allow zerg to better combat terran and allow for the larva mechanic to kick in. The lurkers role does not overlap with that of the brood lord because BL's are designed to break a siege line similar to thors in tvt whereas the lurker is a defensive unit used to hold a position. Blizzard has shown they care about people's emotional connection with units as they have shown with the carrierhere. Zerg requires a strong defensive unit and it would be useful to have a unit that can attack while burrowed. The lurker fufills these requirements in addition to people having an emotional attachment to it from BW so I think we may well see it return in HotS and I would welcome it's return.
GSA: Any past units from the first StarCraft to make a comeback? (*cough*Lurkers*cough)
DB: There's a chance[laughs]. We're not ashamed of putting [the Lurkers] back in. I'm sure they're pretty high on the community request list. They are pretty mighty, since they offer two things to the overall Zerg strategy: the ability to attack while cloaked and the ability to push into a tier-two building. We may have different solutions other than the Lurker, but we're still working on it.
as much as i would love to see the lurker in sc2, if sc2 wants to distinguish itself from bw, it needs to branch out and innovate. lurkers in sc2 would just make it sc:bw 2.0
What I would LIKE to see is: 1. Goliaths for T (or alternate anti-air) 2. Lurkers for Z and another caster unit 3. Immortal or colossus replaced with siege units that add more interesting aspects to the game
On August 22 2011 05:13 hmmm... wrote: as much as i would love to see the lurker in sc2, if sc2 wants to distinguish itself from bw, it needs to branch out and innovate. lurkers in sc2 would just make it sc:bw 2.0
Maybe, but then again doesn't it make sense putting in units that we all know are great, units that made SC the great game it was?
Face it, units like the Collosi and dare i say (BFH) aren't really good units for the game. Atleast not the former.
And having Goliaths would make more sense then Thors in multiplayer really.
And we want vultures :3.
Damn me I am trying to make sc.bw 2.0 xd
On August 22 2011 05:17 Shamrock_ wrote:3. Immortal or colossus replaced with siege units that add more interesting aspects to the game
Yes fcking yes! Replace the damn Collosi with something better!
I remember when Medivacs couldn't heal anything, but they still had Medics in the game. Their reasoning for shifting healing onto Medivacs was that they wanted a medic you could take with your reapers to heal them.
Seeing how Blizzard is constantly dogging on the reaper, I wonder if they'll remove healing from the Medivac (or make it an upgrade) and add Medics.
I think I read the text of an interview where Duston Browder (one of the main designers for HoTS) was saying that Terran will probably not get as many units as the other races because they are so versatile already. he also hinted that Protoss might get a harrass unit. Personally I hope Terran will get a spell caster that can actually do damage. Yeah EMP hurts Protoss but the ghost is useless in TvT. True they can also nullify infestors but they can't actually do damage to the Zerg army other than snipe which is ineffective compared to the aoe damage FG and Storm do. And the Raven is the worst caster unit in the game lol. Looking forward to the new units though and I wonder if it will make people switch races at all.
They will add 1 unit to Terran. This unit will likely replace Reapers. It will be a support unit. I would guess that it would be a Factory unit. It is possible they will also replace Thors/Vikings with a ground unit that can handle that role, and add in a fast AtA unit for Terran.
I think the Thor/viking role is already taken care of by marines??
I mean as in longer range, and made from factories. Currently the ability of a T to go anything other than bio is nonexistant.
They will add 1 unit to Terran. This unit will likely replace Reapers. It will be a support unit. I would guess that it would be a Factory unit. It is possible they will also replace Thors/Vikings with a ground unit that can handle that role, and add in a fast AtA unit for Terran.
I think the Thor/viking role is already taken care of by marines??
I mean as in longer range, and made from factories. Currently the ability of a T to go anything other than bio is nonexistant.
Not sure about that, TvZ shows a lot of tanks/hellions and TvT is almost pure mech. TvP has also been using hellions and banshee/viking now too. What more variety do you want?
I'd say they'll probably replace the reaper, but I'd guess they leave the factory alone.
IMO the zerg and protoss will each get a new unit and ability while the terran will see one unit replaced with a new unit in a slightly different role.
Zerg needs a castor unit other than the infestor. Probably a hive tech unit. Protoss needs a unit that can do some proper harassment with the warp prism. Terran is already the most flexible race so adding another unit without removing an old one would just add redundant unit roles.
What I'm most looking forward to is some extra fun upgrades for Zerg and Protoss much like the multitude of upgrades the terrans have. Something like increased zerg health regen or reduced protoss shield regen delay. Double broodlings spawn from killed buildings or 4 broodlings spawning from a dead ultralisk!
On August 21 2011 23:54 Aiurr wrote: oh btw, I think zerg shouldn't have lurkers AND banelings... it's way too much splash damage imho. So if Blizzard would want to add lurkers they would have to nerf/remove banelings OR make lurkers do damage to a single target only.
Yeah, it's not like other races have multiple options for splash damage.
Well i remember reading an interview with Dustin Browder and he said they were planning on unnerfing the reaper in some way (Thank god) so its not going to be removed or replaced like people said. they also said they were planning on improving t1 scouting options for all 3 races
And as far as terrans go i dont think we need anything, but a new type of factory unit would be fun, something we havent seen before.
I really hope Zerg dont get Lurkers due to the fact that they do the same damage as hellions only they are burrowed *Shudders* But they do need some love and i hope they get around 2 new units. once again something new, bringing in brood war units is boring, I could easily imagine the swarm evolving something brutal between broodwar and hots
On August 22 2011 06:32 BeastofManju wrote: I predict Zerg will get its first cloaked unit in HOTS.
Every non-air zerg unit can go cloaked, and roaches and infestors can move while cloaked. it's just a different kind of cloaking XD i think protoss will get a harassment unit, zerg will see maybe the lurker, and idk about terran. they got pretty much everything they need :/
They will add 1 unit to Terran. This unit will likely replace Reapers. It will be a support unit. I would guess that it would be a Factory unit. It is possible they will also replace Thors/Vikings with a ground unit that can handle that role, and add in a fast AtA unit for Terran.
I think the Thor/viking role is already taken care of by marines??
I mean as in longer range, and made from factories. Currently the ability of a T to go anything other than bio is nonexistant.
Not sure about that, TvZ shows a lot of tanks/hellions and TvT is almost pure mech. TvP has also been using hellions and banshee/viking now too. What more variety do you want?
I'd say they'll probably replace the reaper, but I'd guess they leave the factory alone.
You still require bio in literally all of those except for TvT. I suppose you can go sky terran in most of those MUs, but that's kind of not legitimate.
However, you cannot go pure mech in either TvP or TvZ, for a few reasons. Firstly, in TvZ Mutas absolutely wreck mech(Thors) once they get to a high enough level, and roaches are definitely enough to weather the early game. Also, Roach Infestor stomps mech because Thors are so gas intensive and do too little GtG DPS vs Armored.
As for TvP Thors have too little DPS vs Armored Air - you are required to mix in Vikings to deal with any sort of armored air, but 1) they aren't actually good vs them when they can't kite, 2) they require entirely different production facilities, 3) they're gas intensive as hell, especially if P fakes air, 4) they don't get mech upgrades, 5) they take longer to tech up to, and the first AA available to mech(for example, vs 3 gate SG) is Thors, which are not good vs Void Rays, especially in low numbers.
Finally, Mech is just pretty weak early on, especially vs TC openings, and can be abused pretty easily, especially with the new ability of toss to cliff hop. A solid, steady, not slow GtG fighter is pretty much required to deal with anything like a 3 gate robo blink or similar.
They will add 1 unit to Terran. This unit will likely replace Reapers. It will be a support unit. I would guess that it would be a Factory unit. It is possible they will also replace Thors/Vikings with a ground unit that can handle that role, and add in a fast AtA unit for Terran.
I think the Thor/viking role is already taken care of by marines??
I mean as in longer range, and made from factories. Currently the ability of a T to go anything other than bio is nonexistant.
Not sure about that, TvZ shows a lot of tanks/hellions and TvT is almost pure mech. TvP has also been using hellions and banshee/viking now too. What more variety do you want?
I'd say they'll probably replace the reaper, but I'd guess they leave the factory alone.
You still require bio in literally all of those except for TvT. I suppose you can go sky terran in most of those MUs, but that's kind of not legitimate.
However, you cannot go pure mech in either TvP or TvZ, for a few reasons. Firstly, in TvZ Mutas absolutely wreck mech(Thors) once they get to a high enough level, and roaches are definitely enough to weather the early game. Also, Roach Infestor stomps mech because Thors are so gas intensive and do too little GtG DPS vs Armored.
As for TvP Thors have too little DPS vs Armored Air - you are required to mix in Vikings to deal with any sort of armored air, but 1) they aren't actually good vs them when they can't kite, 2) they require entirely different production facilities, 3) they're gas intensive as hell, especially if P fakes air, 4) they don't get mech upgrades, 5) they take longer to tech up to, and the first AA available to mech(for example, vs 3 gate SG) is Thors, which are not good vs Void Rays, especially in low numbers.
Finally, Mech is just pretty weak early on, especially vs TC openings, and can be abused pretty easily, especially with the new ability of toss to cliff hop. A solid, steady, not slow GtG fighter is pretty much required to deal with anything like a 3 gate robo blink or similar.
I agree that you have to get at least some bio, but that's like saying "uhg, Zerg needs another lair unit because they have to use hatchery tech throughout the game in all match-ups".
On August 22 2011 06:32 BeastofManju wrote: I predict Zerg will get its first cloaked unit in HOTS.
Every non-air zerg unit can go cloaked, and roaches and infestors can move while cloaked. it's just a different kind of cloaking XD i think protoss will get a harassment unit, zerg will see maybe the lurker, and idk about terran. they got pretty much everything they need :/
i think what he ment was unit that can attack while cloaked, something like lurkers
there needs to be a zerg unit that to replace the roach in the late game. basically a step between the roach and the ultralisk, because the hydra doesn't fill that role at all..
They will add 1 unit to Terran. This unit will likely replace Reapers. It will be a support unit. I would guess that it would be a Factory unit. It is possible they will also replace Thors/Vikings with a ground unit that can handle that role, and add in a fast AtA unit for Terran.
I think the Thor/viking role is already taken care of by marines??
I mean as in longer range, and made from factories. Currently the ability of a T to go anything other than bio is nonexistant.
Not sure about that, TvZ shows a lot of tanks/hellions and TvT is almost pure mech. TvP has also been using hellions and banshee/viking now too. What more variety do you want?
I'd say they'll probably replace the reaper, but I'd guess they leave the factory alone.
You still require bio in literally all of those except for TvT. I suppose you can go sky terran in most of those MUs, but that's kind of not legitimate.
However, you cannot go pure mech in either TvP or TvZ, for a few reasons. Firstly, in TvZ Mutas absolutely wreck mech(Thors) once they get to a high enough level, and roaches are definitely enough to weather the early game. Also, Roach Infestor stomps mech because Thors are so gas intensive and do too little GtG DPS vs Armored.
As for TvP Thors have too little DPS vs Armored Air - you are required to mix in Vikings to deal with any sort of armored air, but 1) they aren't actually good vs them when they can't kite, 2) they require entirely different production facilities, 3) they're gas intensive as hell, especially if P fakes air, 4) they don't get mech upgrades, 5) they take longer to tech up to, and the first AA available to mech(for example, vs 3 gate SG) is Thors, which are not good vs Void Rays, especially in low numbers.
Finally, Mech is just pretty weak early on, especially vs TC openings, and can be abused pretty easily, especially with the new ability of toss to cliff hop. A solid, steady, not slow GtG fighter is pretty much required to deal with anything like a 3 gate robo blink or similar.
I agree that you have to get at least some bio, but that's like saying "uhg, Zerg needs another lair unit because they have to use hatchery tech throughout the game in all match-ups".
No it's not. You could say that Zerg needs another hive unit because they use Lair tech the whole game. But in 99% of games a Zerg will get to, and primarily use his Lair based tech units(mutalisks/hydralisks/Infestors), and Hatchery units. Additionally, the upgrades that a Zerg gets will apply to all of his units, whether hive, hatchery or lair, dependant on whether they are ranged or melee. This is not true for Terran. It's not a fair analogy.
On August 22 2011 08:12 Steel wrote: there needs to be a zerg unit that to replace the roach in the late game. basically a step between the roach and the ultralisk, because the hydra doesn't fill that role at all..
I think that they need to reduce the supply of roaches to 1.5, reduce their health and reduce their damage. As it is currently Z is just able to get so many Roaches out on the field that they completely 100% control the map until they're maxed out, and then they literally HAVE to attack. That's just REALLY poor balance.
Replace or alter thor to be more like a buff goliath - maybe seige tank supply and size, reduced power a bit. Change art/animation to look more mechanical and not uncanny valley.
Give Hellions an upgrade that eliminates their stupid wheels and makes them hover - a great visual cue for an upgrade!
Eliminate or nerf Combat shield. Eliminate or nerf Marauders (too similar to Roaches - tier 1 tank with moderate range.
Change ghosts back to 150/150.
Make EMP and Fungal both have casting animations. Who cares if it exposes bnet lag, that's your problem.
Change Raven Art to be less streamlined and more utilitarian / hover-ey.
Change Stalker Art to be less similar to Roach (rounder, less pointey)
Keep immortal as is, good unit.
Replace Colossus. Boring unit, uncanny valley, etc.
Replace Mothership with caster air unit (maybe save for LotV)
Buff carriers somehow
What they shouldn't change:
Don't remove immortals, the metagame is still evolving Don't remove reapers or mess them up too much, they will come back into use Don't remove overseers Don't give Protoss a so-called 'harass' unit
On August 22 2011 08:12 Steel wrote: there needs to be a zerg unit that to replace the roach in the late game. basically a step between the roach and the ultralisk, because the hydra doesn't fill that role at all..
Just make the ultra less supply and you're there. Even Ultras should feel swarmy.
I like the idea of roaches being 1 supply (or hydras) roaches would be cool because they're already tier 1 - maybe lurkers evolve from them in tier 2. Roaches have nice abilities (burrow-move) that would be fun in cheaper, larger numbers.
They already said they were looking into giving Protoss a unit that could do more harassment.
That's why I said they shouldn't do that. ANY unit is a harassment unit, if you use it to harass. DTs, HTs, Zealots, and Blink Stalkers, Pheonixes and Void Rays are enough, wouldn't you say?
On August 22 2011 08:37 FliedLice wrote: anything that is new, i don't even care, but not the reaver or the lurker pls.
Dustin Browder doesn't have anything left to prove with his design talent. He's injected amazing new things into SC already like creep tumors, macro mechanics, warp-in, etc. Time for some fan service with the expansions(that also happens to replace bad units like the colossus).
UNfortunately from the looks of the interview with Browder, it looks like they're going to blur the line between the races, giving them each units that they don't have right now. I'm sadly imagining that SC2 will become a game where you choose one of three races: the humans, the red aliens, and the gray aliens. Each of them has their own aesthetic appeal!... but are not at all different mechanically.
On August 22 2011 08:40 pieisamazing wrote: UNfortunately from the looks of the interview with Browder, it looks like they're going to blur the line between the races, giving them each units that they don't have right now. I'm sadly imagining that SC2 will become a game where you choose one of three races: the humans, the red aliens, and the gray aliens. Each of them has their own aesthetic appeal!... but are not at all different mechanically.
What ?
In BW all races were different yet you could do things like harass with all 3 races (lurkers, reavers, vultures, recall, drops and so on). Why would filling each races lacking points (not weak, lacking) would make them all "not at all different mechanically"
On August 22 2011 08:40 pieisamazing wrote: UNfortunately from the looks of the interview with Browder, it looks like they're going to blur the line between the races, giving them each units that they don't have right now. I'm sadly imagining that SC2 will become a game where you choose one of three races: the humans, the red aliens, and the gray aliens. Each of them has their own aesthetic appeal!... but are not at all different mechanically.
Sadly from the looks of this post, someone will be pissed off no matter what.
On August 22 2011 08:32 0neder wrote: Hoped-for updates:
Replace or alter thor to be more like a buff goliath - maybe seige tank supply and size, reduced power a bit. Change art/animation to look more mechanical and not uncanny valley.
Give Hellions an upgrade that eliminates their stupid wheels and makes them hover - a great visual cue for an upgrade!
Eliminate or nerf Combat shield. Eliminate or nerf Marauders (too similar to Roaches - tier 1 tank with moderate range.
Change ghosts back to 150/150.
Make EMP and Fungal both have casting animations. Who cares if it exposes bnet lag, that's your problem.
Change Raven Art to be less streamlined and more utilitarian / hover-ey.
Change Stalker Art to be less similar to Roach (rounder, less pointey)
Keep immortal as is, good unit.
Replace Colossus. Boring unit, uncanny valley, etc.
Replace Mothership with caster air unit (maybe save for LotV)
Buff carriers somehow
What they shouldn't change:
Don't remove immortals, the metagame is still evolving Don't remove reapers or mess them up too much, they will come back into use Don't remove overseers Don't give Protoss a so-called 'harass' unit
So pretty much make the game as close to broodwar as possible? I think the game was great, but some of those changes simply will not work AT ALL in sc2...
I don't get the "don't bring back stuff" attitude, why remove some very well designed stuff just for the sake of change? Reaver, arbiter, lurker, defiler, scourge, goliath and vulture(mines) are like the all-star team from BW and they were all removed.
Add all of the above units.
Remove mothership, colossus, thor and any other unit that feels obsolete after adding the previously mentioned units(viking?).
Make hydras tier one and remove roaches, seriously hydras(and lings) are the "grunts" of zerg and not the boring uninspired roaches.
Use GSL maps on ladder.
Return the high ground advantage (% miss chance when firing up).
Remove smart casting, no more covering the entire screen with storms in 1sec.
Remove protosses reliance on FF's but keep the ability as an expensive spell (like 100 energy).
Fire the guy who replaced the arbiter with the mothership and hire me.
In short bring back the good stuff from BW, isn't that what sequels are for? Keep the good ideas and build upon it, don't replace it.
On August 22 2011 10:05 pezit wrote: Fire the guy who replaced the arbiter with the mothership and hire me.
"You know, we already made brood war. We aren't really looking for someone to do it again."
As i said it shouldn't be broodwar but it should be an improvement on it since it is a sequel and the mothership is just the worst designed unit in the game, I mean really a "super" unit in SC? what were they thinking.
On August 22 2011 10:05 pezit wrote: Fire the guy who replaced the arbiter with the mothership and hire me.
"You know, we already made brood war. We aren't really looking for someone to do it again."
As i said it shouldn't be broodwar but it should be an improvement on it since it is a sequel and the mothership is just the worst designed unit in the game, I mean really a "super" unit in SC? what were they thinking.
Ironically, Browder claims that ideas for the Mothership floated around Blizzard before he got hired for SC2.
I think the Mothership had a ton of potential to be interesting, but it seems that it never recovered from being nerfed early on in the beta, especially after it got two of its spells nerfed.
Though the Mothership can stay in the game, it is in need of a serious redesign to differentiate it from being compared to a nerfed Arbiter. It has potential to be a really interesting and fun unit, but it currently just seems way too conservatively balanced and watered-down.
pack o' marines, reaver comes in BAM 50 marines die. They need to figure out something about splash damage in SC2, as everything just clumps up into a ball. As for lurker, didn't they consider putting lurker into the game but had issues with the fact that everyone had imba detection? it was too hard to keep the lurkers alive mid to late game and they made it a tier 3 unit if i remember an article or interview correctly
I don't think the lurker is a good idea since its role to control space is shared by banelings. However I believe zerg can use a unit which punishes players without cloak. Maybe an upgrade to allow banelings burrow move? Zerg also have room for some anti-armored unit.
? burrowed banelings are a one hit wonder, they do not control space. Just sacrifice a single zealot and its gone. A lurker persists and is not that easy to take out, even if you got vision
i still dont get it soo many people just want sc1 units... why? why don't you just play sc1 instead? basically what i get from a lot of comments in this thread is "i'm mad because i'm not able to buy 3 games to get a game i already have with better graphics"
i for myself want new stuff new interresting units and upgrades/mechanics
sure lurker were awesome, reaver were awesome but i would be really disappointed if they just add 2 bw units to each race (and i really don't think they'll do that)
i think a lot of people will get angry when they finally announce what they're adding because it will get other things nerfed for sure eg: i'm sure the roach and infestor will get nerfed just to create room for new units. basically already existing units will get more specialized i think
and to those who claim warpgate should be removed, well i hope(and i'm sure) that that won't happen. simply because i further seperates P from the other races right now every race has a different macro mechanic (chrono, larva inject, oc -> mules) and each race builds buildings differently well also army (for the most part)
what i hope is: z: nerf roach and infestor, tweak the hydra a bit and add a unit between roach and hydra (maybe make the roach more tanky and lower range and add a range unit or make the roach less dmg but more against a specific armortype and add another melee unit) and definetly work on the corruptor its just boring
p: add a harrass unit to the gateway (maybe tc required?idk) tweak the other gateway units accordingly (stalker slower and maybe less tanky but more dmg, i think zeals are fine, hmm sentry is hard to balance i think dunno what to change but u cant increase gateway unit effectifity without changing it but i would hate to see any of the abilities go just tweak it (less reliance on ff is needed too) it would also be nice to see some kind of air caster for toss (with a watered down sentry there really room for a new caster) there's alot of things this caster could do eg: heavy shield unit and transferes shield to other units + channeled shieldreg ability for itself (with a cooldown)(a bit like the raven in the starbattle custom map) this maybe would make shield upgrades actually better in some circumstances
and do something to the immortal, its a good unit but well it sucks also xD dont really know what to do with it without making it either too strong or too similar to the colossus i think those 2 units should complement each other maaybe add a immortal upgrade to the robobay with +1 or 2 range and an little anti armor aoe dmg in a line (like the hellion)(the immortal shoots so hard that it even damages units behind the target :>) also nerf the colossus accordingly so you would want to flank with ur immortals so that they can hit more units in a concave
On August 22 2011 08:32 0neder wrote: Hoped-for updates:
Replace or alter thor to be more like a buff goliath - maybe seige tank supply and size, reduced power a bit. Change art/animation to look more mechanical and not uncanny valley.
Give Hellions an upgrade that eliminates their stupid wheels and makes them hover - a great visual cue for an upgrade!
Eliminate or nerf Combat shield. Eliminate or nerf Marauders (too similar to Roaches - tier 1 tank with moderate range.
Change ghosts back to 150/150.
Make EMP and Fungal both have casting animations. Who cares if it exposes bnet lag, that's your problem.
Change Raven Art to be less streamlined and more utilitarian / hover-ey.
Change Stalker Art to be less similar to Roach (rounder, less pointey)
Keep immortal as is, good unit.
Replace Colossus. Boring unit, uncanny valley, etc.
Replace Mothership with caster air unit (maybe save for LotV)
Buff carriers somehow
What they shouldn't change:
Don't remove immortals, the metagame is still evolving Don't remove reapers or mess them up too much, they will come back into use Don't remove overseers Don't give Protoss a so-called 'harass' unit
So pretty much make the game as close to broodwar as possible? I think the game was great, but some of those changes simply will not work AT ALL in sc2...
Agreed. Those changes would completely break the game. Broodlords evolve from mutalisks? xDD
For zerg; A defensive structure morphed from a creep tumor that deals low AoE DPS over time. Spreading creep now is tedious and APM intensive for for nothing less than a buffer.
A moving macro hatchery.
For protoss; Almost sure they will add a reworked reaver-like, pay to shoot unit, probably faster moving and low ranged, ideally 4 range to synergize with sentry immortal zealot compositions.
For terran; Viking removed or tweaked. Reaper reworked. Raven reworked to function more like a defensive unit with HS removed. Gas cost decreased, PDD now a ground structure.
question: why do you people want lurkers back when you have: Banelings AND Infestors? I dont see it coming because it would make TvZ way too hard or force us to mech or air vZ
Protoss needs something to give a defensive advantage, to improve their matchups. I guess a mine layer would be the best from the poll, but something more creative would probably be nice.
On August 22 2011 19:09 AvAri wrote: i still dont get it soo many people just want sc1 units... why? why don't you just play sc1 instead?
SC2 has a good game engine, BW has a good game design.... I don't get why they'd combine the best of both worlds, it just wouldn't make ANY SENSE.........
Personally, playing BW feels terrible for some people (ie: me) because of how terribly inefficient every command is. Being able to control units more actively and make tactical decisions with them is something you can do in SC2 without having ridiculous APM. There are plenty of fundamental differences between the game engines to still be radically different (in a good way) without all this unit disparity.
I shouldn't have to mention the obvious reasons, but I will anyways. Player-base, the whole e-sports scene, a proper match making system, radically improved graphics and path finding, etc..
On August 22 2011 20:08 Kenpachi wrote: question: why do you people want lurkers back when you have: Banelings AND Infestors? I dont see it coming because it would make TvZ way too hard or force us to mech or air vZ
Because lurkers have durability, force detection, introduce more interesting micro scenarios, don't require energy to attack....
I play terran, and I personally wouldn't mind lurkers.
terran already have everything in terms of strategy, i mean, protoss lack a real harassment unit, like a mutalisk, and zerg lack a denial of area unit, like a siege tank, terran kind of have everything. Im not saying they wont get a new unit, but they really don't need one, just that they are a better designed race than zerg an protoss
I would like to see lurkers coming back but I'm afraid of their interactions with sc2 mechanics and units:
-blink mechanic -marauders -colossus being quite mobile + more range + the lateral splash dmg -fungal growth + lurker attacking a ball of units -immortal -ghost snipe
My biggest concern is that killing burrowed lurkers on a ramp would be possible with a basic a-move with marauders/immortal or just a blink on them. Which is basically why I would like to have lurkers in heart of the swarm, a unit capable of controlling areas.
I'm fed up with the 200/200 ball fights or zerglings counter attacks.
On August 22 2011 19:09 AvAri wrote: i still dont get it soo many people just want sc1 units... why? why don't you just play sc1 instead?
SC2 has a good game engine, BW has a good game design.... I don't get why they'd combine the best of both worlds, it just wouldn't make ANY SENSE.........
Personally, playing BW feels terrible for some people (ie: me) because of how terribly inefficient every command is. Being able to control units more actively and make tactical decisions with them is something you can do in SC2 without having ridiculous APM. There are plenty of fundamental differences between the game engines to still be radically different (in a good way) without all this unit disparity.
I shouldn't have to mention the obvious reasons, but I will anyways. Player-base, the whole e-sports scene, a proper match making system, radically improved graphics and path finding, etc..
I love BW to death, but it just breaks my heart, that I can't play it at all. After playing SC2 for so long, what little skill I had, evaporated. But give me a choice between watching BW/SC2 and I'll pick BW every time.
Also as for the poll, voted as follows: P = harass unit such as the reaper. Was mentioned in some Dustin B. interview that that's what they wanted to add, and I fully agree with them. Z = Lurker, or a burrowed attacking unit. There really is no alternative here. That's what the swarm currently lacks., aside from scourge. T = Probably a goliath type. Currently mech has no answer to air from the factory. Thors are too few and too expensive to deal with real air threats. Goliaths or some mobile AA battery would help with unit choices and diversity for T.
But most importantly I'm looking forward to the HUGE new upgrades for existing units. Going from WC3 to TFT, already existing units got good/awesome upgrades. I'm betting that this is also going to happen to SC2 to change up the game.
On August 22 2011 19:09 AvAri wrote: i still dont get it soo many people just want sc1 units... why? why don't you just play sc1 instead?
SC2 has a good game engine, BW has a good game design.... I don't get why they'd combine the best of both worlds, it just wouldn't make ANY SENSE.........
Personally, playing BW feels terrible for some people (ie: me) because of how terribly inefficient every command is. Being able to control units more actively and make tactical decisions with them is something you can do in SC2 without having ridiculous APM. There are plenty of fundamental differences between the game engines to still be radically different (in a good way) without all this unit disparity.
I shouldn't have to mention the obvious reasons, but I will anyways. Player-base, the whole e-sports scene, a proper match making system, radically improved graphics and path finding, etc..
yeah well, you're kind of true. Some sc1 units were really awesome (lurker for example). but i still would enjoy new concepts way more.
the jump from sc1 to bw war huge. a lot of very nice new units and mechanics were added. the same thing happened from wc3 to tft. alot of new units and the races changed quite a bit
i can see the same thing for sc2. or maybe i hope the same thing will happen. if someone can do it then its blizz. they proved it with sc1 and warcraft 3 that they dont just copy other companies unit concepts and offer the same shit ever strategy game offers. they are the ones being copied. (this sounds pretty fanboyish xD but hey its true)
so i still believe it would be very possible to add completely new things to the starcraft universe.
also i think some units would just dont work if u just add them. the reaver for example: if u just add them the way they were back then they would be WAAAAY to strong with the way armys clump up in sc2 (yeah u can split but 1 shot against an unsplit terran army = every marine dead and every marauder near death) in pro games that maybe not thaaat big of a problem (i think it still is one) but every non pro it would be veeery frustrating. i think the game should be balanced for the highest lvl but you need to keep in mind every lvl of play
so they need to change them or need to change other races core units which they played with since sc2 launch.
soo is it really good to add things just for the sake of adding old stuff? i don't think so. they need to idetify which roles need to be filled within the races and come up with new concepts to fill them
Genuine ignorance: Why would a goliath be better than a thor? Don't vikings already do what a goliath would do? Is there a reason for vikings to remain in the game if terrans get thors (with a range upgrade like in BW for hitting collosus with missiles)?
For protoss I'd like to see the observer moved to the Stargate (after all, it's a flying unit...).
Then I'd also like to see a new protoss air harassment unit. My idea is for the unit to have an area-attack spell that "slows down time" for units it hits, making them move, attack, and mine somewhat slower. I'd balance it against stim, such that units affected by both this new spell and stim would move and attack at normal speed. If used against workers, it would slow harvesting for a significant period of time without actually destroying them. Since this unit won't cause any permanent economic damage (it won't kill workers) it should be very very difficult to keep it out of your mineral lines...it should take more turrets than a flock of mutalisks to hold it at bay. Hopefully it won't be a gimmicky cloaked unit.
I don't know what to suggest for terran; everything I come up with seems redundant with what they can already do. Maybe give them new buildings like the Psi Emitter from the single-player?
I think that Zerg needs another caster, since the queen doesn't really count. I'd split the infestor in two and give one of the new units a new spell. Infestor: Fungal growth and Infested Terran. New caster: Neural Parasite and Spawn Broodling (for templar and ghost sniping).
If protoss gets a good harass unit or the reaver they are gonna be utterly op. I'm not saying this to bash protoss, cause i play toss myself alot but its just true. Protoss is the only race that can completly outplay the enemy without killing a single enemy worker. I would much rather see colossi taken out, cause its just too powerfull and boring and steals the spotlight from any other toss unit and want to get tweaks to gateway units + a new siege unit for toss.
Zerg lacks ability to hold a place, mostly because they dont have a siege unit. So i guess they will get the lurker. Zerg is also the only race that has no cloak unit that can attack while being cloacked so that would make sense. Other then that i guess they will tweak the hydra. its the only unit in the game that can absolute NOTHING but attack. Marines can atleast stim. Hydra are just slow, high dps units and thats it. Also like blizzard mentioned they want to tweak the corruptor, overseer and so on cause they are just borring units.
Terran is the most balanced race in the game that lacks almost nothing. they have siege units, harass units and the t1 and t1.5 units are completly avaible/good in lategame. They can play strong cheese or excellent macro games and have the strongest ability to drop. Also its really hard to cheese a terran. I don't really know what blizzard will add to the terran roster but they have to, otherwise all the terran players gonna be pissed.
I hope they gonna nerf fungal and forcefield cause that are just abilitys that prevents micro and reduce the importance of good positioning which leads to borring gameplay.
In sc2 all units get clumped into a ball, especially for terran. So if everyone will get more splash damage units, then terran will stop using bio at all. It won't be worth it anymore if you would have to fight against lurkers, banelings and infestors at the same time.
I think if you want to add lurker, reaver and spider mines, you should take away collosus, banelings and seeker missiles.
I want only one thing, mech play style back, not necessary bringing back the goliath, but to play with mech, i'm really tired to be forced to play with bio against toss
On August 23 2011 03:39 Escape wrote: It doesn't have to be a unit right?
How about bringing back the protoss shield battery building from BW? or something similar to that.
Zerg and Protoss lacks ways to deal air splash damage, maybe something new could address that?
I'd like an upgrade so that warp prisms are mobile shield batteries, it'd give protoss players a reason to make them and keep some with their armies (kind of like medivacs) and encourage more drop play.
Rather than restore shields with energy though, their aura would increase shield regen rate or something.
On August 23 2011 03:39 Escape wrote: It doesn't have to be a unit right?
How about bringing back the protoss shield battery building from BW? or something similar to that.
Zerg and Protoss lacks ways to deal air splash damage, maybe something new could address that?
I'd like an upgrade so that warp prisms are mobile shield batteries, it'd give protoss players a reason to make them and keep some with their armies (kind of like medivacs) and encourage more drop play.
Rather than restore shields with energy though, their aura would increase shield regen rate or something.
For Zerg I would foresee a T3 air caster (other mutation for corruptor), a t2 melee cliff jumper (other mutation for ling ?), and a new detector. In upgrade probably something for the ultra, maybe splash damage when it dies, or some "charge"... And for the new units of course. For the other races, no idea. Something to counter zerg's new unit I guess !
On August 24 2011 08:14 Nasradime wrote: For Zerg I would foresee a T3 air caster (other mutation for corruptor), a t2 melee cliff jumper (other mutation for ling ?), and a new detector. In upgrade probably something for the ultra, maybe splash damage when it dies, or some "charge"... And for the new units of course. For the other races, no idea. Something to counter zerg's new unit I guess !
With infestors, they don't really need one: infestors are really really good, and a lot of players are starting to believe that they're actually too good right now (whether that's true or not is up for debate of course). Lings running up cliffs would be absurdly overpowered, they're already so ridiculously fast with speed it's not even funny. It'd be almost impossible to defend against ling counterattacks. What zerg could use, in my opinion, would be a better ultralisk, or moving hydralisks to hatch tech and roaches to lair (slightly nerfing hydralisk stats and buffing roach stats to compensate).
Queens will have an evolution that turns them into flying units. Once airborne, it will get a speed bonus. Their melee and ranged attacked will now be flipped. Melee will hit air units and ranged attack will hit ground units. Also, creep tumor will be replaced with the return of the Parasite ability from SC1 (for the evolved Queen only).
This does 3 things: 1) Flying caster unit that many people are predicting. 2) SC1 throwback. 3) An additional scouting option for Zerg (with the Queen itself and with Parasite).
On August 24 2011 08:14 Nasradime wrote: For Zerg I would foresee a T3 air caster (other mutation for corruptor), a t2 melee cliff jumper (other mutation for ling ?), and a new detector. In upgrade probably something for the ultra, maybe splash damage when it dies, or some "charge"... And for the new units of course. For the other races, no idea. Something to counter zerg's new unit I guess !
Cliffjumping lings would be indescribably broken. Can people stop asking for that? Ling runbys are devastating at every stage of the game. Can you imagine not even being able to wall them out? Come on, guys...
I feel like there's the most space for expansion in the air lines. Nobody has any AtA aoe (except mutas, kind of), nor flying spellcasters for P or Z. I'd definitely like to see some of those.
On August 24 2011 08:14 Nasradime wrote: For Zerg I would foresee a T3 air caster (other mutation for corruptor), a t2 melee cliff jumper (other mutation for ling ?), and a new detector. In upgrade probably something for the ultra, maybe splash damage when it dies, or some "charge"... And for the new units of course. For the other races, no idea. Something to counter zerg's new unit I guess !
With infestors, they don't really need one: infestors are really really good, and a lot of players are starting to believe that they're actually too good right now (whether that's true or not is up for debate of course). Lings running up cliffs would be absurdly overpowered, they're already so ridiculously fast with speed it's not even funny. It'd be almost impossible to defend against ling counterattacks. What zerg could use, in my opinion, would be a better ultralisk, or moving hydralisks to hatch tech and roaches to lair (slightly nerfing hydralisk stats and buffing roach stats to compensate).
I'm finding myself agreeing with you nearly every time we've posted in the same thread the last few days. Brotoss fist bump.
I just really hope that they make tvt more action packed. I really feel like shooting myself after a long tank/viking battle. I don't even play terran because of this - and when I get tvt when I'm randoming I feel like leaving the game.
I want to add a new researchable ability for the Zealot:
Shield discharge Even the fearless Zealots know the value of a shield when going into battle. For each hits it absorbes, the Zealot may live longer take another enemy down. Only the most reckless protosses forgoes the shield to add more power to their weapons.
Upon activation: Depletes all shields of the Zealot, and infuses the power into their blades. +4 to each hit. An unupgraded Zealot now does 24 (12 x 2) damage instead of 16 (8 x2) Duration: 3 seconds for each 10 Shield depleted (15 seconds for fully shielded Zealot)
Usage: Pre-emptive shield discharge before getting hit by EMP. The Zealot now hits harder and the EMP does nothing. Discharge Zealots on base drops. The Zealots is now more viable as a drop option, since it kills workers in 2 hits instead of 3 hits.
Could be overpowered, but often the Zealots main purpose is to be a meatshield and loosing 33% health instantly is not always the best option.
What? Because the warp prism got an HP buff? The HP isn't the main reason toss don't use warp prism harassment; it's the combination of the prism sharing an expensive production facility with the colossus and observer, and not having a good harassment unit to drop/warp in. "Good" meaning on par with baneling, hellion, and MM drops. An overlord can drop two banelings and wipe out an entire mineral line before the audible attack warning sounds. What is protoss going to drop that is equivalent?
i think it would be sick if they made it so your units inside bunkers could use stimpack. or if you could stim reapers... maybe it make them used more?
On September 08 2011 01:58 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: i think it would be sick if they made it so your units inside bunkers could use stimpack. or if you could stim reapers... maybe it make them used more?
You could always stim then run in..
But reapers with stim & speed? Not even lings would catch them. lol
Though i voted, i feel that overall the overall functionality and mechanics of the game should be improved upon so players are able to utilize all the units, if a reaver-esque unit were to come into play the warp prism would have to be made so that you able to fully utilize the reaver with the "reaver micro" and such.
On September 08 2011 01:58 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: i think it would be sick if they made it so your units inside bunkers could use stimpack. or if you could stim reapers... maybe it make them used more?
On July 02 2011 21:18 Micket wrote: I really hope that the game will have more combining of tech choices, e.g Arbiter is Templar archives and Stargate, Valkyrie is control tower + armory.
I hope there will be a stargate unit that requires the robotics bay, or a stargate unit requiring Dark Shrine. Imagine a flying permanently cloaked unit, that only has spells and can merge with another or something similar.
I hope Zerg gets a hive tech spell caster, or more Hive tech units in general. Lair gives you mutas, corruptors, Hydras, Infestors, as well as the speed roach, speed bane, burrow and all that stuff. Hive gives you ... Ultras (which stink), Broodlords (which are awesome), Cracklings, and yeah. In Broodwar, teching to Hive was a huge part of your game plan as you could use this tech advantage to win, with the timing of your Hive being extremely important. In SC2, Hive is a "well I guess I should Broodlords now".
Of course, there are times when you need to get Broodlords to barely hold a Marine Tank push, but it is not often in your gameplan to map out your hive timings , and defend with the bare minimum. In SC2, you set up a huge economy (at least 4 base), get total map control, max and stay on Lair tech until you feel "you might as well go Hive). Imagine if it was 2 burrowed banelings at perfect locations, with multiple traps in perfect position, using lings to stall and mutas to pick off reinforcements to tech insanely fast to Hive to get a tech advantage. Unfortunately, both hive tech units atm don't give such an advantage, and so the whole thing is less timing based as a whole.
Ultras are really good if you can get the upgrade advantage along with chitinis plating ultras are beasts if ur opponent only has level 2 attacks. I think ultras are very good if used properly. If not they can lose you the game easily. Watch how long it takes for a bunch of marines with plus 2 attack to kill an ultra with 5 armor, it's actually quite funny.
P - Some sort of early harass unit (like the reaper), or early tier unit with splash damage (like hellions). Adding an extra ability to the nexus to put it on par with orbitals is would also be nice.
Z - Lurkers making a comeback. We may just see more hydra play out of it. Also, that ability to convert queens into air units sounds like a worthy idea.
T - Something small, as the race is (and this has been mentioned many times) the most "complete" of the races. Personally I'd like to see a ground melee unit, maybe mech. They definately don't need another casting unit.
I thought that Blizzard was trying to avoid a BW remake. Which is why WoL Tier-1 tech is all different from BW. Removal of Dragoons, Addition of Stalkers. Addition of Roaches, switching of Hydra role and tier. Removal of Medics - Adding Medivacs. But they retained a unit in each of original T1 tech tree so that we feel as if we're entering a game that is different yet familiar.
Dark Archon would be fun (or at least adding in maelstrom as a DT ability :D)... I always thought the addition of an early game unit with splash for toss would be a bit unfair. Toss could use a better harass than what is currently available though, dt's are too far out for various builds, and not to mention expensive :/
EPT
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sorry to say but reaver won't come back if colossus isn't removed although I get the feeling they very well might remove colossus since they did say they were removing some units. 
![[image loading]](http://h4.abload.de/img/apetbarra.jpg)
- A unit that discourages the use of the deathball due it being powerful when properly microed alone or in a small group, but bad as part of a deathball for some reason (Think Reaver).
- I think terran has a hell of a lot of tools already. I'd like to see the Reaper given a real purpose, or have it replaced by something else though - currently it's possibly the least used unit in the game.
- Honestly I have no idea what would be a good change to zerg - I hate playing against zerg because I suck at it, so I'd like to see a unit that they were forced to make and which also instantly lost them the game...
