The article titled "Border Wars: The StarCraft II Pro Scene" has hit IGN.com today.
Excerpt
"HuK's win was not just his own that day. For many, HuK's victory at Dreamhack was an indicator that the western world was keeping up. Months had passed since a foreigner had won a StarCraft tournament with South Korean participants, and HuK had come through in a pinch when morale amongst foreign fans was starting to diminish. As a result, the fanfare was through the roof. The fervor of the 80,000 StarCraft II fans that watched live was hard to ignore. Twitter was ablaze with expected congratulations and post game comments from fans, Reddit's Starcraft page had HuK's face splattered all over the front page, and TeamLiquid's Dreamhack post was growing by about two pages every minute. Everyone was spilling their hearts and sharing their love, for we had finally proven that foreign players could hang with the South Koreans.
Kind-of-sort-of? Maybe?
Read the rest of the article, which discusses other foreigners and Koreans like IdrA, Jinro, and SeleCT here: Click Here!
Are wins from foreigners who have spent time training or living in Korea really able to be attributed to foreigners, or are they just another testament to the Korean methods of training?
Huk doesn't count as a foreigner at all in my opinion unless you go purely by genetics. He has literally been training the korean way for months and his success is indicative of korean training.
Oh lord. I'll just summarize the hundreds of posts about to ensue. Half will say that he was not born in korea, was raised outside of korea, and became a pro before going to korea so therefore he is not korean. The other half say that he's only where he's at now because of Korean training, not his own training before he went, and therefore should be counted as a Korean.
The answer people is both. He only was able to go to korea because he was already very good. But there's no doubt that his training in Korea has made him a much better player. Huk has amazing work ethic, combine that with the korean training and you have one of the worlds best players.
God, not this conversation again... Thank you for bringing this up again it always leads to the most fascinating discussions and seldom leads to petty arguments.
Its called submersion. If I go to Mexico and just live there in a house with people speaking spanish all day, im going to learn the language eventually, but my heritage is not ever going to become Mexican. Maybe my kids could call themselves Mexican, but you can't change your heritage within one generation.
I really don't understand this argument at all...... HuK is a foriegner, he is from Canada. I don't give a rats ass how many hours he trains or who he trains with. Nationality has nothing to do with your training regime or where you are currently, temporarily living. ><
There's almost no foreigner who like to train like koreans do. Hell, even somes koreans can't handle the korean training.
Most foreigner are having fun with SC2, the hardcore koreans are just going soulless into practice. Th western world will never go that far into it, it's not in our culture at all.
On July 02 2011 08:42 nalgene wrote: He's more Korean than he is Aryan and if you look at select ( he's more americanized/plays in NA than a true korean )
He lives and trains with them anyways with similar practice schedules
On July 02 2011 08:41 alepov wrote: The western world isn't keeping up, that's the thing. Western players can keep up, if they train in the Korean world.
If western players were to train in the korean WAY, they could keep up just as well in pro houses outside of Korea. It's just the amount of time spent on the game really - someone who is living in a house, playing 6 hours a day, and talking strategy/viewing replays with other players/with a coach all day long is just going to be better at the game. The more you put in, the more you get out.
On July 02 2011 08:44 aMped wrote: I really don't understand this argument at all...... HuK is a foriegner, he is from Canada. I don't give a rats ass how many hours he trains or who he trains with. Nationality has nothing to do with your training regime or where you are currently, temporarily living. ><
No one honestly believed that the Koreans were genetically superior unless they were a gaming fascist. The whole debate is a culture debate.
On July 02 2011 08:43 Jayrod wrote: God, not this conversation again... Thank you for bringing this up again it always leads to the most fascinating discussions and seldom leads to petty arguments.
Its called submersion. If I go to Mexico and just live there in a house with people speaking spanish all day, im going to learn the language eventually, but im not going to turn Mexican.
This, a thousand times this. It is from him training hard against good players.
Kind of weird you'd use "foreigner" on IGN.com. It's a nice slang for THESE forums, but using "foreigner" with a general audience is going to confuse the shit out of people.
Also, the "Korean training", reminds me of this Japanese figure skater during the winter Olympics. She dropped her Japanese citizenship so she could train/live in Russia. Because Russia has a stronger tradition/resources in that sport.
What needs to happen is to "export" the Korean training.
All HuK symbolizes, as the dreamhack commentators put (not Day9/Apollo) after his victory is that ANYBODY who trains hard enough in the right environment, can become a champion.
I think HuK's win should be attributed to the undying dedication and confidence of the man himself. Just look at the Homestory Cup. He overcame his own self-proclaimed, which was obviously true, weakest matchup against the best protosses in the world. He took down MC and Naniwa in long series over the course of a couple of hours. Do you really want to dedicate a personal story like this to an entire fraction of the SC2 community.
IMO it doesn't matter whether he is "foreigner" or "korean" in terms of who the win should be attributed to. He is one of the most dedicated progamers in the world and it is showing, and discussing foreigner/korea rivalry is just shallow imoimo.
"foreigners" didn't win it nor did "koreans". The only person who won it is HuK it can't be attributed to anyone else so stop fucking pretending it can :S
No one honestly believed that the Koreans were genetically superior unless they were a gaming fascist. The whole debate is a culture debate
Its not even a culture debate. If player A and player B have the same potential, and player A dedicates more time to learning/improving, player A will be better. How hard is this to debate. Koreans play more. Argument over.
I'd like to see a team train somewhere in the west in the Korean style (that is, a professional team house where everyone works their asses off) and see how their results stack up.
FXO is sort of doing this even though they're in Korea, since it's almost an all foreigner team.
Huk trains with oGs, one of the best Korean teams. His results just show that Koreans don't have a freak starcraft gene that makes them superior . The west will only keep up if they train harder, so I hope a foreigner team steps up to that challenge.
HuK didn't get pixie dust sprinkled on him and start thinking happy thoughts. If he did, we'd probably hear about a Kpop scandal involving a foreigner by now. I realize once you break it down, the "Korean way" generally includes "a lot of hard work" and most people realize that, but sometimes we get carried away in some delusion of Korean RTS magic.
On July 02 2011 08:48 Elsid wrote: Does this actually matter?
"foreigners" didn't win it nor did "koreans". The only person who won it is HuK it can't be attributed to anyone else so stop fucking pretending it can :S
It's a big deal to some people because for a long time there was this giant divide between the two worlds. So try to understand that.
On July 02 2011 08:43 Jayrod wrote: God, not this conversation again... Thank you for bringing this up again it always leads to the most fascinating discussions and seldom leads to petty arguments.
Its called submersion. If I go to Mexico and just live there in a house with people speaking spanish all day, im going to learn the language eventually, but im not going to turn Mexican.
This, a thousand times this. It is from him training hard against good players.
good explanation
he is a foreigner, and will always be one, because it will always be korea vs the world or it wouldn't be starcraft at all.
Foreign player with Korean training. Obviously the Korean style of training is far superior to everything outside of Korea. The only thing this proves is that foreign players can keep up with Koreans, if they have the same training. The western world is certainly not keeping up.
Also, in the very beginning of starcraft 1, there were foreigners who could keep up with the korerans. Grrr, elky, etc. But they eventually retired because of the practice regime. Up to like the 2004-2005 era it wasnt that rare for foreign clans to win against koreans. Mondragon, Draco etc were taking games of koreans left and right. The same thing is happening in SC2 right now, you can already see the evolution happening.
On July 02 2011 08:51 Ansinjunger wrote: HuK didn't get pixie dust sprinkled on him and start thinking happy thoughts. If he did, we'd probably hear about a Kpop scandal involving a foreigner by now. I realize once you break it down, the "Korean way" generally includes "a lot of hard work" and most people realize that, but sometimes we get carried away in some delusion of Korean RTS magic.
There's a lot more to it than just "playing a lot."
On July 02 2011 08:44 aMped wrote: I really don't understand this argument at all...... HuK is a foriegner, he is from Canada. I don't give a rats ass how many hours he trains or who he trains with. Nationality has nothing to do with your training regime or where you are currently, temporarily living. ><
You missed the point. The article is trying to "prove" that Korean training is superior. They spend more hours, live in team house and there are coaches and managers like a sport team. Of course Canada gets a point for HuK winning tournaments but Korean training system also gets a point because the system created HuK of today.
On July 02 2011 08:48 Elsid wrote: Does this actually matter?
"foreigners" didn't win it nor did "koreans". The only person who won it is HuK it can't be attributed to anyone else so stop fucking pretending it can :S
It's a big deal to some people because for a long time there was this giant divide between the two worlds. So try to understand that.
No it is not a big deal. The "giant divide" would not have been so giant if people didn't move on to Warcraft 3. One of the better foreigner players today are from Warcraft 3 FT. 4K, SK, MyM, WE and many other progaming teams focused their finance on WC3 players because that was the most popular RTS.
You can't just compare SC1 to SC2. You have to account for WC3FT somewhere in the middle.
I have always found this us vs Koreans attitude silly.
But anyone who denies that Koreans have been showing better results is kidding themeselves. The only thing Huk showed us is that we can train as hard as them to be as good as them.
On July 02 2011 08:51 Ansinjunger wrote: HuK didn't get pixie dust sprinkled on him and start thinking happy thoughts. If he did, we'd probably hear about a Kpop scandal involving a foreigner by now. I realize once you break it down, the "Korean way" generally includes "a lot of hard work" and most people realize that, but sometimes we get carried away in some delusion of Korean RTS magic.
There's a lot more to it than just "playing a lot."
Exactly. As far as I know, the Chinese who are playing SC2 right now like XiaOt and XiGua train as hard with their teams, if not harder, than most Koreans. Their skill levels, however, are still not top notch (on the same level as MVP, NesTea, MC, etc.).
There is so much more than just "Koreans practice harder in a team environment."
On July 02 2011 08:51 Ansinjunger wrote: HuK didn't get pixie dust sprinkled on him and start thinking happy thoughts. If he did, we'd probably hear about a Kpop scandal involving a foreigner by now. I realize once you break it down, the "Korean way" generally includes "a lot of hard work" and most people realize that, but sometimes we get carried away in some delusion of Korean RTS magic.
There's a lot more to it than just "playing a lot."
It's a good thing I didn't say that then. I implied "a lot of work" is the main part of it, not the only part. And "work" is somewhat open to interpretation.
No one honestly believed that the Koreans were genetically superior unless they were a gaming fascist. The whole debate is a culture debate
Its not even a culture debate. If player A and player B have the same potential, and player A dedicates more time to learning/improving, player A will be better. How hard is this to debate. Koreans play more. Argument over.
Culture in terms of gaming culture of the individual player
No one honestly believed that the Koreans were genetically superior unless they were a gaming fascist. The whole debate is a culture debate
Its not even a culture debate. If player A and player B have the same potential, and player A dedicates more time to learning/improving, player A will be better. How hard is this to debate. Koreans play more. Argument over.
How is that not a culture debate? If koreans play more its because their culture dictates that.
Its not even about time either. Its about quality of practice. Thats the reason Huk is in korea. He can get BETTER practice there than he can here.
If huk/jinro didn't train in korea they would never reach the level they are now, this is a fact. Sure they would still be kick ass pro gamers, but not off the same level.
This discussion is really stupid.. he trains in the best house, with the best Protoss in the world, the training regime is better, you play against better players on the ladder and I'm sure he practices as much as anyone in that house so the results don't surprise me. HuK even said he thinks hes been this good for a while, the results just haven't come in yet until now. Look at what EG are doing with their house, I think they will be the closest ones to HuK once everything gets going there, and with what iNcontroL has been saying about their future, it looks very promising for the scene.
I attribute part of huk's dreamhack victory to nony, nony is a foreigner so it's clearly a victory for foreigners
in all seriousness though i think it shows that the korean practice style is great, but i see it as a foreigner winning because huk isn't a korean even if he is training in korea
now if select or moonan won (for example) it would be a little more difficult to draw the line argumentatively but i would still consider it a foreigner victory
see ign, look what you have done. only page 3 and its the same thing over and over. I'm all for debating, but we've already had this discussion and it's going nowhere.
On July 02 2011 09:08 Rasky wrote: So when Russians and Swedens come to Canada to play in the CHL does that make them Canadian?
You are completely missing the point.
LOL. Ok.... so when a swedish or russian comes to the CHL to play hockey, are they no longer considered as Russians or Swedes? In the MLB are the Cuba players no longer Cubans? Training where it is best to increase your skills the most is what anyone who wants to succeed in any sport will do. Everyone who doesn't realize that needs to open their eyes what is your point?
Until the foreigners who aren't living in Korea start beating top Koreans I don't consider them anywhere near the same level. In fact I think the skill gap between is growing really larger and larger everyday. The western scene is falling really far behind and quickly. Articles like these are giving out the wrong information.
On July 02 2011 09:08 Rasky wrote: So when Russians and Swedens come to Canada to play in the CHL does that make them Canadian?
You are completely missing the point.
LOL. Ok.... so when a swedish or russian comes to the CHL to play hockey, are they no longer considered as Russians or Swedes? In the MLB are the Cuba players no longer Cubans? Training where it is best to increase your skills the most is what anyone who wants to succeed in any sport will do. Everyone who doesn't realize that needs to open their eyes what is your point?
you made a good point. that guys been trolling for a whlie now just ignore em.
Playing/watching/theorycrafting with MC day in day out for months has to have something to do with it. On top of that I feel like HuK truly wants to become the best. I'd wager he wouldn't have performed half as well as he did as DH/HSC if he hadn't been practicing like a machine in Korea though.
It's attributed to the fact that he was in a positive environment for dedicated training fueled by his inner desire to become good enough to be a champion.
Those are the ingredients involved in being successful. What good are you going to be if your environment is hostile or not promoting you to be awesome? He's been training against some of the top players in Korea, I'd definitely not count that out.
I find it utterly insulting that you people think that working hard is a Korean trait. The only differences between training in your house and training in Korea is the lack of distractions from friends and family, the language barrier which makes the game more of your focus than anything else, and the lack of privacy.
On July 02 2011 09:18 Desirous wrote: I find it utterly insulting that you people think that working hard is a Korean trait. The only differences between training in your house and training in Korea is the lack of distractions from friends and family, the language barrier which makes the game more of your focus than anything else, and the lack of privacy.
Or, you know, a team house such as oGs that fosters player development. I don't like it when people like you discount the fact that a team environment in Korea is exponentially better than sitting on your ass at home.
HuK is palying great, and he has been training in korea for quite a long time. but i think he was rather lucky not having to face Bomber. he did a good job of beating MC. this was dreamhack where he had toface 2 koreans, MC and Moon. in homestory cup there was only one korean he had to face which was mc again.
i still stand by my point that even the best foreigners can't hold a candle to the top koreans. they can win here and there (as anyone can in sc2) but they're not nearly as good as them imo
also, iiirc, HuK said during the beta that he had nothing to do (neither studies nor a job) so he decided to go heavy on sc and it gave him a thrive i think that's also a reason for his strong dedication
On July 02 2011 08:47 PartyBiscuit wrote: HuK is HuK - he represents TL.
All HuK symbolizes, as the dreamhack commentators put (not Day9/Apollo) after his victory is that ANYBODY who trains hard enough in the right environment, can become a champion.
There is nothing left to discuss.
This.. If you go "his foreigner trololol" or "his korean because his lives in Korea" you're very wrong. It's how much effort he puts into the game, he takes back out.
It's just Korean's train endlessly. They don't do any of this nonsense 2 hours a day, they do 8-10 hours a day. In the MMA documentary, BoxeR said that MMA trained for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.
That's a fucking lot of time, 60 hours a week of SC2, refining builds, perfecting control, it just shows if you put in the effort you will succeed, that's all it is.
For the eyes of the majority of TL, a player a foreign is "turned" into a korean, if he lives and practice using the korean methods, and what we want to see, is the same thing happening outside of Korea.
There's no sense in thinking the west is keeping up with sk if huk wins a tourney. Huk lives and trains with Koreans, not westerners. Meaning he's on par with most koreans.
I don't understand why all these pro foreigner players that are supposedly really passionate about the game don't start practicing 8 or even 10+ hours a day, and form team houses. If they truly have the competetive drive to become the best in the world they should train like it.
On July 02 2011 09:08 Rasky wrote: So when Russians and Swedens come to Canada to play in the CHL does that make them Canadian?
You are completely missing the point.
LOL. Ok.... so when a swedish or russian comes to the CHL to play hockey, are they no longer considered as Russians or Swedes? In the MLB are the Cuba players no longer Cubans? Training where it is best to increase your skills the most is what anyone who wants to succeed in any sport will do. Everyone who doesn't realize that needs to open their eyes what is your point?
you made a good point. that guys been trolling for a whlie now just ignore em.
On July 02 2011 09:38 Mayor wrote: Foreigner team, foreigner player in my opinion. If you alone must decide who the win is attributed to - ask HuK, not us.
So now that Oz has joined FXO, Rain has joined Fnatic.MSI, that means they're foreigners now kkkkk looks like perfect logic right there.
No one ever called IdrA a Korean terran in BW. And he spent years on a real team, and was still called a foreigner. To be called a Korean you have to be a Korean living in Korea, or have grown up in Korea. Let's just go by the TSL 2 rules. Being a Korean is not just about the training, it's about growing up in an environment of E-Sports and all the "privileges" that entails.
On July 02 2011 08:48 Elsid wrote: Does this actually matter?
"foreigners" didn't win it nor did "koreans". The only person who won it is HuK it can't be attributed to anyone else so stop fucking pretending it can :S
Yeah, I really agree with this. No collective of people can assume his accomplishment. There should be no "s" on the end of those words.
Sure HuK has trained in Korea for a few months, but he still counts as a foreigner. If Yao Ming plays in the NBA for a year, he doesnt become American, hes still chinese. Where you train doesn't change your nationality. If Oz and Rain move to the US or out of Korea (i have no clue if they will or not) they wont be considered foreigners, they'd still be Koreans. Just because the Korean system helped HuK out doesnt mean he becomes one of them. But I really hope HuK responds to this thread, i'd be interesting to heard his take on things.
On July 02 2011 08:44 Noocta wrote: There's almost no foreigner who like to train like koreans do. Hell, even somes koreans can't handle the korean training.
Most foreigner are having fun with SC2, the hardcore koreans are just going soulless into practice. Th western world will never go that far into it, it's not in our culture at all.
i believe the answer to this question = european wow raiding guilds.
Europeans and americans spend a huge amount of time on mmorpgs.
So when you say only koreans can go hardcore with playing games...that's wrong. All humans have that ability.
The only difference between us/european players is that koreans have nadal's mentality while eu/european players ...yeah that's us .... have the mentality of andy murray
so when nadal fights andy murray...you know what happens
As for innate skill between us/eu and korean players. I believe there is no genetic difference (my degree is in human genetics) BUT koreans and all over asia have these arcades where they have games like guitar hero etc that help you co-ordinate very well.
I've seen girls who are mental on guitar hero over there. Basically, asians start their game training earlier than us/eu players cause taking their girlfriends to these arcades where they have guitar hero etc is very normal over there. That's where i took girls i dated and it's usually arcades or karaoke which is very popular aside from the normal cinema restaurant stuff.
Point is that when people blame genetics...that's bullshit. Everybody can reach the same skill level if you practice hard. I remember watching liquidtyler do some amazing blink stalker play vs zerg and that was some sick stuff. Same with other progamers. They all can play sick but what separates us from koreans is work ethic and mentality,
Look at manchester united...a lot of the players over there get drunk on weekends and mess around. Then you look at Ji Sung Park. He plays to his limit every game ...always working incredibly hard and his work ethic pays dividends. That's why a lot of premiership teams are buying korean players because they know during a season, koreans will always play well on average and that's the type of player you need. A consistent player who works hard and doesn't mess around.
It's funny, so far everyone has called HuK a foreigner - Without exception, but now as he has started to post some serious results, he's suddenly Korean
On July 02 2011 09:56 smallerk wrote: HuK wins attributed to huk's hardwork.
that is all.
I was going to post this. HuK earned it himself with some help from practice partners or other people who support him. Koreans don't have a racial superpower to be better at Starcraft.
Well one thing is for sure, Huk wasn't able to be this good without the help of Korean training combined with his hard work. Korean or Foreigner, it boils down to Huk's determination and training environment and the "west" can take any credit for it.
It doesn't matter if Huk is Canadian or not. HuK winning shows that the training regime is what helps the player to be able to reach the top and in this case, Korean training >> all. 60hr of SCII is some crazy stuff!
HuK's win proves that it's not the fact that you are born korean that makes you better, but that the environment and the way the person trains and commits to the game is what makes you the best of the best.
Currently, koreans have the best training environment and HuK is training on korea, which means KR > world. But that has nothing to do with "koreans versus white dudes".
I still dream for the day that a black guy dominates the scene.
On July 02 2011 09:38 Mayor wrote: Foreigner team, foreigner player in my opinion. If you alone must decide who the win is attributed to - ask HuK, not us.
So now that Oz has joined FXO, Rain has joined Fnatic.MSI, that means they're foreigners now kkkkk looks like perfect logic right there.
There is a logic in it if you consider the korean-foreigner distinction as something beyond nationality. Otherwise it's just bullshit.
On July 02 2011 10:17 Zephirdd wrote: I still dream for the day that a black guy dominates the scene.
IMO it's kind of silly to say that HuK is a tribute to how the foreign world can keep up. Where did he train for so long? Korea. How much of the foreign world is actually doing that? Not much at all. Thus, the fact that HuK originates outside of Korea is irrelevant. It's not a tribute to the foreign world. It's a tribute to how the level of training players in Korea are subjected to definitely pays off, and it's a tribute to HuK's own level of discipline and determination to keep up with that training. If anything, all it proves is that there's no "genetic" bar to being amazing at Starcraft, which was a really ludicrous notion to begin with (but was, somehow, one that quite a few people seemed to be stuck on, judging from some of the things I read when HuK was winning Dreamhack and Homestory)
"HuK's win was not just his own that day. For many, HuK's victory at Dreamhack was an indicator that the western world was keeping up. Months had passed since a foreigner had won a StarCraft tournament with South Korean participants, and HuK had come through in a pinch when morale amongst foreign fans was starting to diminish. As a result, the fanfare was through the roof. The fervor of the 80,000 StarCraft II fans that watched live was hard to ignore. Twitter was ablaze with expected congratulations and post game comments from fans, Reddit's Starcraft page had HuK's face splattered all over the front page, and TeamLiquid's Dreamhack post was growing by about two pages every minute. Everyone was spilling their hearts and sharing their love, for we had finally proven that foreign players could hang with the South Koreans.
Ehm,i dont really get this, hes pretty much korean himself in terms of playing sc2, he has lived there pretty much since the start of sc2, the west isnt keeping up but is doing alot more for the sc2 community than korea.
I think all it says is that Koreans aren't just born better than foreigners (which some people need to still understand), but that there is a lot to learn if you want to compete with people who live in Korea.
@Elsid, it does matter because of where he lives and the training environment he's in. It's not because of KOREA it's because of the practice partners he has and the fact that his entire life is built around practicing sc2. Korea matters because that's the only place that happens. I think you're overplaying what people mean.
Are wins from foreigners who have spent time training or living in Korea really able to be attributed to foreigners, or are they just another testament to the Korean methods of training?
It's a false dichotomy. Both are true.
The celebration for foreigners is that a foreigner is able to go to Korea, train effectively well with Koreans and as a result become as good. If you think that's easy, go try it.
The next level of celebration for foreigners would be if they could create training conditions within their own countries that are able to produce such results. This will happen eventually, but it takes time.
Huk won because of his Korean "like" training schedule. The more time you spend training/practicing the better you will become. As a matter of fact, I swear he has been streaming for like 4+ hours a day this whole week.
These threads just keep coming don't they. Huk wins because he is dedicated to the game and puts the time into it to get him results he deserves. Sure playing with Koreans help, but you best believe he learned some things beating Nani.
Focused training with few distractions gets you closer to your max potential. A vast pool of these create good training partners/opponents, which in turn hone your skills. And it is here Korea excels when it comes to Starcraft.
However, excessive training will be detrimental in some ways. Doing (E)sports is not only about your training, but being in balance as a human being, and sometimes doing completely different stuff will improve your skills, because your subconsciousness will keep working on it, all the while you don't become fatigued from doing the same thing for too long, with little variation, and variation makes a human being happy, which in turn lifts your spirit/motivation, when you do indeed need to train efficiently. This approach quite often makes up for less time training. It is about having the right mix, along with tons of talent, and ability to absorb what you learn. Too much training will not allow the brain(and body) to recuperate at maximum capacity, and therefore not effective compared to the amount of hours you put in.
In some ways I think IdrA for example will suffer, while in others he will make up for moving out of Korea. Quite often we see Koreans looking like they haven't slept much(just look at Nada a lot of the time). Sleep is also very important, because while we sleep the brain also analyze the data it has gathered. If you aren't completely rested you can't perform at your optimal capacity.
Summa Summarum: Training, nutrition and quality of opponents isn't the whole story in becoming the best you can be, but the right mix in the formula for the given persons persona.
On July 02 2011 10:25 SafeAsCheese wrote: Sorry, but at least some of it was korea.
Hard Work doesn't equal a win. Huk could practice 5 hours a day and beat most Americans if they played 10-15 hours a day.
Why?
Practice environment. NA/EU ladder is not the same as KR ladder and practicing with oGs members in customs.
If Huk played his same 10 hours of practice in the west, he would not be as good as he is right now.
How do you think that oGs got that good? Practice, so it's really every foreigner holding down each other. Not many people practice =/= not many people are as good as koreans who practice =/= lower skill level
I can assure you if Koreans took our practice regime(if you could call it that.. Most pros just do whatever they want whenever) they would be as bad as us, and if we adopted theres we would be better then them.
What this comes down to is the use of the terms "korean" and "foreigner".
The reason there is so much confusion is because people look at these terms in 2 different ways.
Group A thinks that "Korean means born in korea" "Foreigner means not born in korea"
Group B thinks that "Korean means they practiced mostly in korean pro house" "Foreigner means that they practiced in some other environment"
The confusion arises because the usual use of a term like korean is what group A thinks. However in the case of Starcraft 2, the country you are born in has no real effect on your skill level. The real determining factor is wether you trained in the korean scene or the foreigner scene.
Personally I think people should stop using the terms "korean" and "foreigner", and instead use the terms "korean scene" and "foreigner scene", to avoid confusion. Huk should be known as Canadian, but also as a korean scene player.
On July 02 2011 09:08 Rasky wrote: So when Russians and Swedens come to Canada to play in the CHL does that make them Canadian?
You are completely missing the point.
LOL. Ok.... so when a swedish or russian comes to the CHL to play hockey, are they no longer considered as Russians or Swedes? In the MLB are the Cuba players no longer Cubans? Training where it is best to increase your skills the most is what anyone who wants to succeed in any sport will do. Everyone who doesn't realize that needs to open their eyes what is your point?
You still don't get it. Huk is Canadian/American national, he is a foreigner. But most of the his Sc2 training comes from Korea, and the reason he's S-Class as opposed to A/B class like other foreigners is because he's trained in Korea.
No one is claiming Huk is a Korean national, but that celebrating this as a victory for the foreign scene is pretty weird seen as Huk has trained and plays in the Korean scene.
He is to Canada/America what Lionel Messi is to Argentina.
Huk's wins are certainly a testament to the Korean method of training, but that does not mean they are not victories for the foreign community. Very few people have claimed that foreigners have a better training regiment than Koreans, but Huk has put a hole in another theory that Koreans somehow are naturally inclined to work harder and have a significant cultural advantage over foreigners. Huk's victory was over this cultural advantage. It was proof that nothing more than a different training routine separates foreigners from Koreans. This may seem obvious, but I believe that it was a sign that many people have been waiting a long time for.
"HuK's win was not just his own that day. For many, HuK's victory at Dreamhack was an indicator that the western world was keeping up. Months had passed since a foreigner had won a StarCraft tournament with South Korean participants, and HuK had come through in a pinch when morale amongst foreign fans was starting to diminish. As a result, the fanfare was through the roof. The fervor of the 80,000 StarCraft II fans that watched live was hard to ignore. Twitter was ablaze with expected congratulations and post game comments from fans, Reddit's Starcraft page had HuK's face splattered all over the front page, and TeamLiquid's Dreamhack post was growing by about two pages every minute. Everyone was spilling their hearts and sharing their love, for we had finally proven that foreign players could hang with the South Koreans.
Ehm,i dont really get this, hes pretty much korean himself in terms of playing sc2, he has lived there pretty much since the start of sc2, the west isnt keeping up but is doing alot more for the sc2 community than korea.
Well atleast in bw foreigners went and lived there but they were only winning tournaments without kors in it. Huk is beating on S class players. I suppose a real success would be a foreigner winning GSL but this is a start.
People excel at this game by constantly working their hardest at it, with an intense training and practice schedule against the strongest opponents. Korea just happens to be the locus of high-level play in the game that presents the best training opportunities to players and consequently generates the strongest players.
On July 02 2011 10:55 Insomni7 wrote: Huk's wins are certainly a testament to the Korean method of training, but that does not mean they are not victories for the foreign community. Very few people have claimed that foreigners have a better training regiment than Koreans, but Huk has put a hole in another theory that Koreans somehow are naturally inclined to work harder and have a significant cultural advantage over foreigners. Huk's victory was over this cultural advantage. It was proof that nothing more than a different training routine separates foreigners from Koreans. This may seem obvious, but I believe that it was a sign that many people have been waiting a long time for.
Sorry but koreans do actually have a cultural advantage because koreans as well as all other asians have an incredibly strong work ethic to succeed in life. That's why asians usually get top grades because their work ethic is very very strong. It's usually due to very pushy parents.
This is nothing to do with genetics though but the korean cultural environment is much better suited to foster starcraft 2 talent than the american or eu scene. Koreans usually play to improve whereas na/eus play to win. Add to that the korean nadal mentality compared with the na/eu andy murray mentality and you have a perfect storm of events.
But that doesn't mean na/eu players are bad. It just means at the top of na/eu, the players are nearly as good as the koreans (i mean koreans didn't steamroll us 2-0 everytime ..we had close matches) but the bottom 99% na/eu players are much worse than the botton korean players.
but overall, it's all about mentality rather than skill. Federer can't beat nadal but he does have the weapons to beat nadal.....it's just a mental thing.
Not Korea, not Canada, but HuK. He won for himself and his team, and while he can attribute his win to whatever region he wants, it's still undeniable that the player is who won the tournament, not the region.
On July 02 2011 10:25 SafeAsCheese wrote: Sorry, but at least some of it was korea.
Hard Work doesn't equal a win. Huk could practice 5 hours a day and beat most Americans if they played 10-15 hours a day.
Why?
Practice environment. NA/EU ladder is not the same as KR ladder and practicing with oGs members in customs.
If Huk played his same 10 hours of practice in the west, he would not be as good as he is right now.
How do you think that oGs got that good? Practice, so it's really every foreigner holding down each other. Not many people practice =/= not many people are as good as koreans who practice =/= lower skill level
I can assure you if Koreans took our practice regime(if you could call it that.. Most pros just do whatever they want whenever) they would be as bad as us, and if we adopted theres we would be better then them.
Exactlly.
I just fear that it will be hard to establish.
I mean, take EG. What if EVERY EG member started practicing 8 hours a day.
They would become good, and learn to play against each other extremely well.
Then what?
Koreans on ladder can face the best GSL code s players, almost all of them are in grandmasters. Who are foreigner teams that seriously practice going to play? Ladder is pointless and tourneys are too spread out.
Until there is a large number of foreigner teams who take the game seriously (in terms of practice) to compete with each other, it won't be easy.
If we ever hit a point like in korea where the ladder is a pro-gaming level practice area, then it will probably be in Europe and not NA.
Actually, if anything this is final proof of how Koreans are superior.
HuK, though a smart and talented player, was nowhere near the level of ability he demonstrates now until he went and trained in SK in SK style for months on end. Foreigners will never be able to compete with SK while we live in the west.
Fortunately, it does lay to rest the genetic argument
On July 02 2011 11:34 DaemonX wrote: Actually, if anything this is final proof of how Koreans are superior.
HuK, though a smart and talented player, was nowhere near the level of ability he demonstrates now until he went and trained in SK in SK style for months on end. Foreigners will never be able to compete with SK while we live in the west.
Fortunately, it does lay to rest the genetic argument
one thing I don't get about this whole argument; Was there EVER a genetic argument, idiots notwithstanding?
On July 02 2011 11:34 DaemonX wrote: Actually, if anything this is final proof of how Koreans are superior.
HuK, though a smart and talented player, was nowhere near the level of ability he demonstrates now until he went and trained in SK in SK style for months on end. Foreigners will never be able to compete with SK while we live in the west.
Fortunately, it does lay to rest the genetic argument
Uhm, this doesn't demonstrate how Koreans are superior, all this demonstrates how the Korean style of training/practicing is superior. If Koreans are superior, why is a Canadian able to match their skill?
Basically practice like Koreans and you too can be as good as Koreans!
On July 02 2011 11:34 DaemonX wrote: Actually, if anything this is final proof of how Koreans are superior.
HuK, though a smart and talented player, was nowhere near the level of ability he demonstrates now until he went and trained in SK in SK style for months on end. Foreigners will never be able to compete with SK while we live in the west.
Fortunately, it does lay to rest the genetic argument
Uhm, this doesn't demonstrate how Koreans are superior, all this demonstrates how the Korean style of training/practicing is superior. If Koreans are superior, why is a Canadian able to match their skill?
Basically practice like Koreans and you too can be as good as Koreans!
I think you misunderstand what he means, you have the same point.
Nice article, but it would definitely add to it if you asked Huk what his opinion on the matter was. I have a pretty good idea of what he would say (I'm sure a lot of people do) but it would be nice just to give him the final say.
On July 02 2011 11:06 DisaFear wrote: Korea is the Hyperbolic Time Chamber (or whatever it was from Dragon Ball Z)
Hey... i use the dbz referrences here lol.
Ehh too me it doesnt seem like this was great as far as Foreigner vs Korea and Foreigners are keeping up. If we win 1 tournament every 10 tournaments thats still 10%. Thats all im saying. And yes i relize huk won 2 tournaments back to back.
It is all about skill and dedication and finding enough practice partners who are just as skilled and dedicated.
While it would be nice to see the NA ladder become half as good as the KR ladder, the more realistic goal is for enough teams to get enough financial backing to make team houses the norm and be able to find players willing to commit to living in a team house.
Until NA players are financially able and emotionally willing to live eat and sleep SC2, they will be behind KR players who sacrifice a lot to be better.
To me it does mean something about foreigners. sure he's been using the Korean training style for some time now but it's more about just training it's about who wants it more. It's about drive. There are plenty of people who've trained in Korean longer then Huk has but they don't have the same results. Huk had the determination to win that tournament. That same determination drives him to train harder then the rest.
Sure you can attribute this win to Huk training with Koreans or you can look at it as there's finally a foreigner with the drive of a Korean. In that sense it is a victory for the foreigners because it shows that it's no longer the Koreans who want to win the most and other countries are taking it just as seriously.
On July 02 2011 09:18 Desirous wrote: I find it utterly insulting that you people think that working hard is a Korean trait. The only differences between training in your house and training in Korea is the lack of distractions from friends and family, the language barrier which makes the game more of your focus than anything else, and the lack of privacy.
Or, you know, a team house such as oGs that fosters player development. I don't like it when people like you discount the fact that a team environment in Korea is exponentially better than sitting on your ass at home.
Wow, way to disagree with me while repeating everything I just said in different words, you're a genius.
Koreans have just as little will power as foreigners. Otherwise they wouldn't need to go live in some small as shit apartment and sleep in a room full of bunk beds with people they might not even like. Every single thing you can get from a practice house in terms of making your game play better, you can get online. The only thing you can't get, is the focus. You lose a ladder game at your home, you go watch tv to cool off. You lose a ladder game in a practice house, you watch replays, watch vods, play more ladder, play vs other tenants.
It just goes to show you...Koreans are not genetically better (as mentioned by some individuals above), even foreigner can be at their level. All you need is their practice.
I think the hard work aspect is being overblown, foreign players are basically being depicted as lazy at the moment. There are foreign players who train very hard, and you can encounter them seemingly 24/7 on ladder in addition to their private training but they won't necissarily be winning anything.
The issue here is the quality of training, its the reason NA pros play on EU ladder and not the other way round. Foreign players are wasting their time by getting the impression their builds and play style are correct, when actually their opponents suck balls.
Look at manchester united...a lot of the players over there get drunk on weekends and mess around. Then you look at Ji Sung Park. He plays to his limit every game ...always working incredibly hard and his work ethic pays dividends. That's why a lot of premiership teams are buying korean players because they know during a season, koreans will always play well on average and that's the type of player you need. A consistent player who works hard and doesn't mess around.
I love Park Ji Sung like a brother but he is absolutely leagues behind players like Nani, Ronaldo and Paul Scholes even on his best day, and in all honesty there are also plenty of English and Irish players that will run and run and run and run forever The Korean work ethic cannot overcome natural skill, and Park Ji Sung is probably the best Korean football player on the planet - both former captain of the national team and having studied with the benefit of the best footballing coaches on the planet, those of the EPL.
He's also still Korean. He's not Mancunian.
I don't think there's anything separating the top EU/US players from the top Korean players other than a lack of a structure supporting pro-e sports. They can take that on as a career over there and get pretty well paid for it. The esports scene over here is just not well developed enough to support the kind of bottom heavy enhancement it needs.
The difference between the two scenes is not the skill level. It is the amount of time each side has to prepare. Of the pro-gamers you all know of, how many of them make more than 30k a year - a basic living wage that I will get from the first year of being a physics teacher?
It's obviously genetics that allowed huk to win. If we want to win we must be more like Huk--we must drink his blood and consume his flesh. The power of huk compells us.
If anything Huk winning dreamhack while every other non korrean was not able to finish top 4 shows that the way koreans practice, or practice is done in korea, is way superior to the way most foreign pros do it. This is as far away from being an acomplishment for the foreigners as you can get without having a korrean on top.
On July 02 2011 08:37 Joshy.IGN wrote: Are wins from foreigners who have spent time training or living in Korea really able to be attributed to foreigners, or are they just another testament to the Korean methods of training?
It's not koreans that are superior.
It's korean attitude, training style, professionalism.
If you share that, you will at some point have a chance to be as good as the koreans.
well for the discussion, its up to huk on what he is thinking :3. And what this shows is that not koreans are superior, just their training schedule. At the end some foreigners will train there to learn how to train and bring that back to the west. (already a few trying that :3 ) If foreigners still fail with the same amount of training and support, well then ...
But to be honest. I will miss the godlike bw title of "able to compete with top koreans (and not training in korea)"
"HuK's win was not just his own that day. For many, HuK's victory at Dreamhack was an indicator that the western world was keeping up.
Read the rest of the article, which discusses other foreigners and Koreans like IdrA, Jinro, and SeleCT here: Click Here!
Seriously? How are Huk's wins any indication that the "Western World [is] keeping up"? He's a foreigner that is representing the Korean scene. His wins are just more evidence that the Korean scene is getting further and further ahead. You can contribute that to any number of factors, but Huk definitely does not represent the Western World in regards to Starcraft. If he had stayed and trained in the "Western World", I'm almost positive he would not have won HSC or Dreamhack.
If the Western World truly wants to keep pace with the Koreans, training in Korea is the only answer.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Oh yea? Guess everyone else should just quit cause it seems to me you solved the mystery. But when Naniwa beat MC in HSC it was because Naniwa was training at the Slayers house and playing on the Korean ladder.. oh wait.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Oh yea? Guess everyone else should just quit cause it seems to me you solved the mystery. But when Naniwa beat MC in HSC it was because Naniwa was training at the Slayers house and playing on the Korean ladder.. oh wait.
i wish i trained in slayers or had the korean ladder. ;D
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Oh yea? Guess everyone else should just quit cause it seems to me you solved the mystery. But when Naniwa beat MC in HSC it was because Naniwa was training at the Slayers house and playing on the Korean ladder.. oh wait.
i wish i trained in slayers or had the korean ladder. ;D
Should ask boxer for a hook up when you get to korea!
Huk's wins should be attributed to Huk, not foreigners or korea.
Korea obviously has the better training environment, but ultimately it's up to each individual player to keep up with it, and he's demonstrated that he's capable of working that hard.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Oh yea? Guess everyone else should just quit cause it seems to me you solved the mystery. But when Naniwa beat MC in HSC it was because Naniwa was training at the Slayers house and playing on the Korean ladder.. oh wait.
I love Naniwa as much as the next guy, but other than him and maybe one or two other top top foreigners, there's really no one else that I can see competing with the best of the best that Korea has to offer.
If people believe staying in NA or EU and just adopting some Westernized version of Korean training is magically going to start producing top level talent, you're being delusional. By the time that happens, if it ever happens, the Koreans will be SO far ahead, it'll just be BW all over again.
Huk is canadian spy he spy on america then he spy on korea. What better way to infiltrate the ranks of korean elite than through a display of strategical mastery in a game such as sc2.
Huk would suck (or be a mediocre NA pro) if he wasn't in Korea. It's no surprise that practicing efficiently for 8-10 hours a day with the best players in the world is producing results. The time he's putting in is paying off, as he's now probably the best foreign protoss, or one of the best.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Korean ladder training probably doesn't make THAT much of a difference.
Practicing in any house is a huge stepping stone for a player no matter who is in the house, if the top US/EU players made a training house and took it as seriously as the Koreans did they would start becoming just as good as the Korean players.
On July 02 2011 08:41 alepov wrote: The western world isn't keeping up, that's the thing. Western players can keep up, if they train in the Korean world.
This.
Huk won 2 straight international tournaments after spending more than half his SC2 career in Korea. At the moment he is a korean player just as much as he is a canadian citizen.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Korean ladder training probably doesn't make THAT much of a difference.
Practicing in any house is a huge stepping stone for a player no matter who is in the house, if the top US/EU players made a training house and took it as seriously as the Koreans did they would start becoming just as good as the Korean players.
Umm no. Practicing on the korean ladder > any other ladder int he world. Makes a huge difference. A korean house is much more structured than a foreign house. Korean training is in every way > foreign training. Article was pretty stupid. Huk winning doesn't say anything about foreigners keeping up, in fact, foreigners are sucking more and more. What it says is with proper korean training, a foreigner can improve his game vastly than without. Foreigners who train in korea will become better, foreigners who don't will continue to suck.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Korean ladder training probably doesn't make THAT much of a difference.
Practicing in any house is a huge stepping stone for a player no matter who is in the house, if the top US/EU players made a training house and took it as seriously as the Koreans did they would start becoming just as good as the Korean players.
Umm no. Practicing on the korean ladder > any other ladder int he world. Makes a huge difference. A korean house is much more structured than a foreign house. Korean training is in every way > foreign training.
Don't be stupid please, foreigner doesn't mean ethnicity, it meas environment. The wins are because he is in Korea, don't think that for one second this article is correct in assuming HuK is a foreigner... The writer is uninformed or duped or something
If it's only players who are living and training in Korea, in Korean Pro Team houses with Korean Pro Teams is it really the west keeping up or just proof that Korean training is the best regardless of where someone is born.
there is no discussion really, the victory was earned by huk , he was able to achieve these wins because he was traning the "korean way" end of the discussion
Yeah I would call Huk's and Jinro's wins as Korean wins. Honestly it kinda bugs me that people still call them foreigners when they've spent practically their entire carrers in Korea. I think culture is far more important than genetics when it comes to competitive gaming
Of course it goes the other way as well; I count Selects wins as American wins even though he's genetically Korean. And I guess soon I'll be calling Rain a Westerner too
HuK and Jinro being awesome at starcraft are HuK and Jinro choosing to train like that to be awesome at starcraft.
Plenty of people go to Korea and come home because they can't keep up with the training schedule. I think it downplays the player's willingness to work hard when we say that it's just because of the ladder or living in Korea.
Plenty of people maintain the same work ethic outside of Korea, and when Naniwa wins DreamHack or MLG when he beats MC/DongRaeGu whoever, everybody will be talking about how the West beat the East. No. It's because of the players.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Korean ladder training probably doesn't make THAT much of a difference.
Practicing in any house is a huge stepping stone for a player no matter who is in the house, if the top US/EU players made a training house and took it as seriously as the Koreans did they would start becoming just as good as the Korean players.
Umm no. Practicing on the korean ladder > any other ladder int he world. Makes a huge difference. A korean house is much more structured than a foreign house. Korean training is in every way > foreign training.
Read my post again, please.
Read i again, and still don' think you understand the problem here. Let's put someone like idra in the eg house, and say he practices 12 hours a day with machine, incontrol, etc. Now let's put the same idra in the IM house where he practices 12 hours a day with mvp, nestea, losira, younghwa, yoda, happy, seed, etc. while being supervised by IM's coach. It's no just the quantity of the training, it's the quality as well. In korea the infrastructure is already there. The players are already better, thus training with them will make you better. I don't care if you train in the eg house 24/7. You won't get the same training quality as you would if you were in the IM house, or the ogs house, slayers house etc. for even 5 hours. Koreans will forever be ahead because of this. It will takes years for the western society to accept and train like the way the koreans do. And who knows, by then the koreans may have already found the next evolution in esports training. Foreigners will lag behind forever. Wanna know why? Because that is what happens when you give someone a 12 year head start in a competition.
Yeah, I'd say it's obviously a testament to Korean training environments. It's just cool because HuK is white.
However, the coolest part is how long this road has been for HuK. If you've followed him since the beta like a lot of us, he used to DOMINATE in NA. When the ladder was be-all-end-all important, he topped it constantly. Then he went to Korea and sorta dropped off the radar for several months. Seeing him come back after all the time and demonstrate just how good he's become, winning tournaments against Koreans, etc, is kinda moving -- one of our best has gone through what it took to become one of THEIR best. So now he's one of the best in the world, rather than simply the best in NA.
I feel that "Korean" and "Foreigner" are terms that represent training methods and environments, rather than heritages or nationalities... so I'd label HuK (and old school IdrA) as Koreans, because of their practice regiments.
On July 14 2011 05:40 Megatronn wrote: If he lived somewhere else he could still train just as hard as he does in Korea.
And not be as good.
You need korean ladder and team for the practice to be valuable.
Practicing on oGs is much better, for example, than practicing on ZENEX
Oh yea? Guess everyone else should just quit cause it seems to me you solved the mystery. But when Naniwa beat MC in HSC it was because Naniwa was training at the Slayers house and playing on the Korean ladder.. oh wait.
He beat MC
He currently would have little to no chance at winning a GSL though.
I am not sure what you are trying to argue, if you think the average american can ladder 10 hours a day on the NA ladder with a NA team like complexity, and be competitive.... Eh...
No, it's the players. Just going to Korea wont make you better. You have to have the drive to truly want to practice hard and being in Korea doesn't all of a sudden motivate you more than being anywhere else.
I think the whole Koreans vs Foreigners thing is a bit silly, so it doesn't really matter. But if I had to choose I would attribute them to foreigners, as they still are not Korean. They are only playing on the SEA server and living there, but they are certainly still Canadian, American, etc.
On July 14 2011 07:51 suejak wrote: Yeah, I'd say it's obviously a testament to Korean training environments. It's just cool because HuK is white.
However, the coolest part is how long this road has been for HuK. If you've followed him since the beta like a lot of us, he used to DOMINATE in NA. When the ladder was be-all-end-all important, he topped it constantly. Then he went to Korea and sorta dropped off the radar for several months. Seeing him come back after all the time and demonstrate just how good he's become, winning tournaments against Koreans, etc, is kinda moving -- one of our best has gone through what it took to become one of THEIR best. So now he's one of the best in the world, rather than simply the best in NA.
Pretty cool.
LONG?
LOL, not saying you're wrong since time is relative to each person, but you just made a LOT of the members here who've been following starcraft for a decade feel really old I'll bet.
On a more serious note; if you think Huk would be half as good as he is now if he just practiced playing ladder games for the same amount of time you're only kidding yourself. The reason he's the player he is now is because he practices 12 hours a day with some of the best starcraft players in the world. His own dedication is obviously a huge factor, but you remove the other people and he'd be a lot worse than he is now.
On July 14 2011 08:08 smokeyhoodoo wrote: All Huk wins should be attributed to Huk. This thread is disgusting.
I agree...his success shows that you don't have to be of Korean blood to be at their level, does it really matter where he comes from? It's not like he's out there representing Canada, he's representing himself and his team.
Huk is considered a korean by gaming standards, he practices with them and in the same mindset as them, therefore attributing him as a foreigner by skill standards is not accurate representation of the situation
I think what people are saying about the help of ogsmc, is that, recently, Huk has started to train sitting next to MC and talking with him all time. Before, the liquid guys trained together. Training with MC could have been the difference between TSL, Gsl Wc, gsl may and dh invitational Huk to Hsc and DH summer Huk. Mc himself said (as he would) that he was a large influence.
On July 14 2011 08:10 Tyrant0 wrote: So if every foreigner were to eventually step up their practice regime to keep up with Koreans, do all foreigners become Koreans?
If by step up their practice regime you mean moving to Korea and training a in a Korean's team pro house for the majority of their career then yes they become Koreans.
On July 14 2011 08:10 Tyrant0 wrote: So if every foreigner were to eventually step up their practice regime to keep up with Koreans, do all foreigners become Koreans?
If by step up their practice regime you mean moving to Korea and training a in a Korean's team pro house for the majority of their career then yes they become Koreans.
SO I guess Sheth is Korean then as he got through RO32 in Code A coming from US....
On July 14 2011 08:10 Tyrant0 wrote: So if every foreigner were to eventually step up their practice regime to keep up with Koreans, do all foreigners become Koreans?
If by step up their practice regime you mean moving to Korea and training a in a Korean's team pro house for the majority of their career then yes they become Koreans.
SO I guess Sheth is Korean then as he got through RO32 in Code A coming from US....
No, Sheth is obviously "foreigner".
Is it not obvious why HuK is special? It's completely different. He has lived with oGs since like October -- almost a full year.
On July 14 2011 08:10 Tyrant0 wrote: So if every foreigner were to eventually step up their practice regime to keep up with Koreans, do all foreigners become Koreans?
If by step up their practice regime you mean moving to Korea and training a in a Korean's team pro house for the majority of their career then yes they become Koreans.
SO I guess Sheth is Korean then as he got through RO32 in Code A coming from US....
Re-read it, "MAJORITY OF THEIR CAREER" Sheth was there for what 2weeks?
HuK's wins are attributed to HuK. Just like any other player's achievements before HuK. The long hours he put it in are neither to the "foreigners" or the "Koreans" and as such these debates are the epitome of pointless to have. When we see foreigners putting in the equivalent hours to the Koreans in practice sessions over the course of months, we will see a narrowing of the supposed skill gap in SC2 right now.
Practice is all that matters. Practice more, against good people, and you will get better faster than the people who are neither practicing as much or against competition that will help them learn and get better.
On July 14 2011 08:10 Tyrant0 wrote: So if every foreigner were to eventually step up their practice regime to keep up with Koreans, do all foreigners become Koreans?
If by step up their practice regime you mean moving to Korea and training a in a Korean's team pro house for the majority of their career then yes they become Koreans.
SO I guess Sheth is Korean then as he got through RO32 in Code A coming from US....
Gawd people like you are just so thick. It's been explained so many times what makes you korean. If you are korean by blood, you are korean yes. In the world of sc2, huk is a foreigner in terms of biology. But his training is attributed to the korean method. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? Huk is a foreigner representing the korean training method. Simple as that. Sheth was there for what? a week? He's a foreigner representing the foreign training method. Doubt he picked up anything worthwhile by being there for 2 weeks. Huk has been there for many many months now. By now he has fully adopted the korean style, which along with personal perseverance, has led to his recent success.
What I see now, is a bunch of sad foreigners using any excuse they can to back up "foreigners are catching up to the koreans, we can still fight and probably overtake them someday. Want an example? Huk at dreamhack". No no and no. Get over your sad self. Huk is demonstrating what hard work and good coaching along with a well structured training schedule can do for you, not that the foreign scene is catching up. The foreign scene will not have a korean type infrastructure for many years if not ever. Having houses is not enough, you need coaches, a timely schedule etc and much more.
Besides huk, the closest person I think to being able to stand up to the koreans is Sen, who guess what? has been training on the korean ladder and has even mentioned practicing in the IM team house. OH SNAP REALLY? Training in a korean house makes you good? Who would have ever guessed?
On July 14 2011 08:10 Tyrant0 wrote: So if every foreigner were to eventually step up their practice regime to keep up with Koreans, do all foreigners become Koreans?
If by step up their practice regime you mean moving to Korea and training a in a Korean's team pro house for the majority of their career then yes they become Koreans.
SO I guess Sheth is Korean then as he got through RO32 in Code A coming from US....
I wish there was a god that dealt with people like you who do not for a second take time to think about what you say before you type it and aggravate people.
I just wish that god would punish you by bursting you into flames as soon as you hit the enter key with your comments
then again people are flaming you now but still that doesn't count
If foreign players practice / LIVE in a house play SC 2 for long periods of time a day with a coach guiding the players in a decent direction then you can say their skill comes from Korean like training but they are still foreigners at the end of the day.
if a foreign team moves to Korea and has a team house in Korea and practice there for period of time without a large amount of Koreans influencing their training then they are still considered foreigners with Korean LIKE training but still foreigners at the end of the day
How about attributed to HuK himself? Who cares where he got his training and how he got where he is. Who paid for him to get there? Who paid for him to get an education? Who paid for his Starcraft?
HuK's wins... attributed to his parents, teamliquid, korea, canada, USA or scandanavia? You decide.
On July 02 2011 08:47 PartyBiscuit wrote: HuK is HuK - he represents TL.
All HuK symbolizes, as the dreamhack commentators put (not Day9/Apollo) after his victory is that ANYBODY who trains hard enough in the right environment, can become a champion.
There is nothing left to discuss.
This doesn't just sum it up, this is it right here. Anyone can beat anyone who has enough training/willpower/effort. It's the same ultimate answer every time a thread or story comes up like this.
On July 14 2011 08:10 Tyrant0 wrote: So if every foreigner were to eventually step up their practice regime to keep up with Koreans, do all foreigners become Koreans?
If by step up their practice regime you mean moving to Korea and training a in a Korean's team pro house for the majority of their career then yes they become Koreans.
Why would they have to move to Korea? Obviously training in Korea is superior because the infrastructure is already in place. I'm partially talking out of my ass when i say this, but I don't think there are many; if any foreigner teams with a house/training schedule like the Koreans have.
edit:
On July 14 2011 09:48 WarChimp wrote: I love how we are making this a hierarchy. So, while your lower you are a foreigner and the better you are you become a Korean?
HuK wins because of himself. Sure he trains with his Korean mates but he wins because of his play, his style and his skill.
On July 02 2011 08:42 ronpaul012 wrote: The answer people is both. He only was able to go to korea because he was already very good. But there's no doubt that his training in Korea has made him a much better player. Huk has amazing work ethic, combine that with the korean training and you have one of the worlds best players.
Correction. He had a lot of potential. I really hope Joshy didn't overlook this fact. There's a reason why IdrA was able to find success there after living in Korea for 2 years. Hell, even Jinro's practice paid off.
If you have the balls, work ethic, skill and luck. You can get some decent results, but the underlying principle behind all of this is the Korean culture and their practice regime.
On July 02 2011 08:43 Jayrod wrote: God, not this conversation again... Thank you for bringing this up again it always leads to the most fascinating discussions and seldom leads to petty arguments.
Its called submersion. If I go to Mexico and just live there in a house with people speaking spanish all day, im going to learn the language eventually, but my heritage is not ever going to become Mexican. Maybe my kids could call themselves Mexican, but you can't change your heritage within one generation.
How has this thread gotten to 10 pages when this was only the 8th post down?
mindlessly practicing 10+ hours a day does NOT get you results. Life isn't that simple. It requires direction, innovation and experimentation, something that non-Korean infrastructures currently do NOT provide. A part of the amazing success of the korean-training method is not simply "oh, let's practice 10 hours a day, yay" it's because there are brilliant coaches who can help direct each player in the right direction, because of the intense atmosphere under which they work AND because the skill level of every single player that they practice with can wipe the floor off with a typical non-Korean-trained player.
you CAN'T just practice 10 hours a day and assume you will be world class. 1 hour with oGsMC is worth more than 100 hours of solo-practicing.
On July 02 2011 08:47 PartyBiscuit wrote: HuK is HuK - he represents TL.
All HuK symbolizes, as the dreamhack commentators put (not Day9/Apollo) after his victory is that ANYBODY who trains hard enough in the right environment, can become a champion.
There is nothing left to discuss.
Stop underrating talent. Not ANYBODY can be a champion, look at ret and haypro. Those two trained in korea for so long and they're not even ahead of the other top europeans at all.
Not everyone can be a champion no matter how much they practice. We're all born differently, and we all have a different threshold.
If you work really hard for ~8-10 hours a day, almost every day, in an environment with other excellent players who are helping you improve while you help them improve, you'll be an amazing player, whether you are Korean or not.
Koreans have that environment, HuK has that environment. Most foreigners don't. Maybe EG will start kicking ass now that they're getting a similar environment up (not sure how much time they are putting in though). Hopefully TLO's house will show some massive improvement to those guys too.
It's the environment and work ethic that has them ahead, not their nationality.
On July 02 2011 08:43 Jayrod wrote: God, not this conversation again... Thank you for bringing this up again it always leads to the most fascinating discussions and seldom leads to petty arguments.
Its called submersion. If I go to Mexico and just live there in a house with people speaking spanish all day, im going to learn the language eventually, but my heritage is not ever going to become Mexican. Maybe my kids could call themselves Mexican, but you can't change your heritage within one generation.
How has this thread gotten to 10 pages when this was only the 8th post down?
Because in sc2 we don't give a shit about what language they speak or the color of their skin? We care about their training method.
"HuK's victory at Dreamhack was an indicator that the western world was keeping up.
God, I can't believe big companies like IGN are spilling these blatant loads of crap. If anything, Huk's victory, as well as the last few months, has proven that the foreign scene is starting to fall behind.
Huk is a foreigner representing the Korean SC2 scene. Period.
it's hard to say. I don't know whether genetics, environment is the dominating factor to why Koreans dominate starcraft.
Environmental factors like what is in the food, water, and air could be overwhelmingly more secure in South Korea at the moment. Since Western culture has been somewhat compromised in food safety and health. Perhaps Koreans are more cognizant of health traps and are benefiting from the results of a healthier life style.
If Koreans are supposedly better than Europeans at the moment in Starcraft. and it's due to just genetics. Why aren't chinese, Mongolians, Japanese people competing and becoming successful. Since many Japanese and Chinese people are similar to Koreans genetics wise. Obviousy, environment is at play.
Huk "won" it, although i contribute his win against moon to moon's own flawed decisions, not huk's ability to beat him. Those last 2 games were terrible decisions by Moon after he destroyed huk in straight up games.
"HuK's victory at Dreamhack was an indicator that the western world was keeping up.
God, I can't believe big companies like IGN are spilling these blatant loads of crap. If anything, Huk's victory, as well as the last few months, has proven that the foreign scene is starting to fall behind.
Huk is a foreigner representing the Korean SC2 scene. Period.
Agreed. Seems like a reach for viewership when the statement is not true.
Huk is a Canadian who has made a significant improvement thanks to his training in South Korea.
Does anyone find anything wrong with what I just said? I don't understand why this topic comes up every few days and gets hundreds of people so passionately arguing each time, and lord it's annoying.
We can be proud of HuKs success as one of us (A westerner) but we cannot hold HuK up as an example of the Western SC2 scene keeping up with the Korean scene because he is part of the Korean scene.
On July 14 2011 11:34 chatuka wrote: it's hard to say. I don't know whether genetics, environment is the dominating factor to why Koreans dominate starcraft.
Environmental factors like what is in the food, water, and air could be overwhelmingly more secure in South Korea at the moment. Since Western culture has been somewhat compromised in food safety and health. Perhaps Koreans are more cognizant of health traps and are benefiting from the results of a healthier life style.
If Koreans are supposedly better than Europeans at the moment in Starcraft. and it's due to just genetics. Why aren't chinese, Mongolians, Japanese people competing and becoming successful. Since many Japanese and Chinese people are similar to Koreans genetics wise. Obviousy, environment is at play.
this is probably one of the dumber posts i've seen in a while
On July 02 2011 08:47 PartyBiscuit wrote: HuK is HuK - he represents TL.
All HuK symbolizes, as the dreamhack commentators put (not Day9/Apollo) after his victory is that ANYBODY who trains hard enough in the right environment, can become a champion.
There is nothing left to discuss.
Stop underrating talent. Not ANYBODY can be a champion, look at ret and haypro. Those two trained in korea for so long and they're not even ahead of the other top europeans at all.
Not everyone can be a champion no matter how much they practice. We're all born differently, and we all have a different threshold.
Eh, those two left Korea a long time ago. Who knows where Huk would be now if he left with them then.
HuKs win is attributed to Korea. If he was still laddering in Canada he wouldn't be as successful as he is now. HuK is Korean not Canadian anymore because he trains like a Korean and trains with Koreans on a daily basis that's why he is so good at Starcraft because he is Korean. He represents the Koreans because thats where he trains and his skill set comes from his Korean training nothing more nothing less.
On July 02 2011 08:47 PartyBiscuit wrote: HuK is HuK - he represents TL.
All HuK symbolizes, as the dreamhack commentators put (not Day9/Apollo) after his victory is that ANYBODY who trains hard enough in the right environment, can become a champion.
There is nothing left to discuss.
Stop underrating talent. Not ANYBODY can be a champion, look at ret and haypro. Those two trained in korea for so long and they're not even ahead of the other top europeans at all.
Not everyone can be a champion no matter how much they practice. We're all born differently, and we all have a different threshold.
Eh, those two left Korea a long time ago. Who knows where Huk would be now if he left with them then.
well, when haypro left korea and moved back to europe, he wasn't exactly lighting the european scene on fire. when he attended american tournaments while still residing in korea, he did pretty damn poorly. he was nothing special at all.
if you think anyone can go to korea and become a champion after mass gaming, then you're just completely naive.
this is the real world and things like intelligence will come into play when you're competing with others who play just as much as you.
if you have 100 guys who play 12 hours a day, then not all of them are gonna be champions. you guys make it sound as if any foreigner who goes to korea and nerds for 12 hours a day will be a champion like huk, which is completely ridiculous.
HuK's wins may be attributable to Korean methods of training but that's all they are, methods of training first developed in Korea, where there was the money and interest do so, they aren't intrinsically Korean.
If I had the money I'd pay for the best foreign progamers to live in a house in Europe or the US and have them train against each other 8-10 hours a day, come up with schedules to keep them fresh against different playstyles, would that mean that it was "European" or "American" training methods? No, they would be my training methods.
Individual coaches and the players themselves are the ones who deserve credit, not a particular group identity. The fact that foreigners, HuK and IdrA foremost among them, have gone to Korea, prospered there, and gone on to success shows that Koreans don't have some ethnic stranglehold on SCBW / StarCraft 2. They have an older more developed system, once we catch up there will be no more talk of Korean dominance.
I remember a couple months back I didnt like Huk much at all, he didnt seem focused enough. He was kinda always playing up to the camera. After being in the oGs house he has changed. I dont doubht that along with Huk's natural ability, the oGs house is the reason for HuK's improvement. The timeline fits. Good on ya Huk and oGs, its been a great to see.
On July 14 2011 12:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:Koreans don't have some ethnic stranglehold on SCBW / StarCraft 2. They have an older more developed system, once we catch up there will be no more talk of Korean dominance.
To catch up to someone you have to move faster than they are. That is not happening. Current trends pretty strongly suggest that the gap is going to continually widen, and there are no significant moves to reverse it.
On July 14 2011 12:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:Koreans don't have some ethnic stranglehold on SCBW / StarCraft 2. They have an older more developed system, once we catch up there will be no more talk of Korean dominance.
To catch up to someone you have to move faster than they are. That is not happening. Current trends pretty strongly suggest that the gap is going to continually widen, and there are no significant moves to reverse it.
Exactly, do you see signs of the foreign scene catching up? The gap gets wider and wider with every tournament.
It's cool to see the ethnicity side that there are non-koreans winning, but Huk won having trained in Korea, so it's not as cool as a foreigner winning having trained outside of korea
I think this is a bit of a dumb discussion. Ofcourse HuK is a foreigner he's not Korean. And ofcourse he's now so good because of 'korean' practice methods. If other foreigners starts practicing 10+ hours a day with a good team around them they will improve as well.
On July 02 2011 08:47 PartyBiscuit wrote: HuK is HuK - he represents TL.
All HuK symbolizes, as the dreamhack commentators put (not Day9/Apollo) after his victory is that ANYBODY who trains hard enough in the right environment, can become a champion.
There is nothing left to discuss.
This is wrong, and belittles the entire player-base and game itself.
There are a lot of idiotic players who make dumb decisions constantly but have good mechanics. These players will not become champions, no matter how hard they train.
There is individual flair and decision making skills that you do not get via grinding out games involved in being a champion, ya?
Its obviously due to korean training. there's no genetic reason why koreans are better, they just train harder.
its just plain silly to think that somebody who practices 10 hours a day wouldn't be much better than someone who can only practice 3 hours a day. once esports gets big in america, and more sponsorships are available, then pros can make a living off gaming, and be just as good. seems pretty straightforward to me.
On July 15 2011 02:25 fishjie wrote: Its obviously due to korean training. there's no genetic reason why koreans are better, they just train harder.
its just plain silly to think that somebody who practices 10 hours a day wouldn't be much better than someone who can only practice 3 hours a day. once esports gets big in america, and more sponsorships are available, then pros can make a living off gaming, and be just as good. seems pretty straightforward to me.
Unless it never does happen, like in BW, and the entire foreign scene just dies and the few willing move to korea.
EPT
. The west will only keep up if they train harder, so I hope a foreigner team steps up to that challenge.
