On June 26 2011 21:33 Noocta wrote: I seriously don't know how they can play at pro level with less than 150-200 APM.
I play at a little bit more than 120, and i feel i'm slow as hell.
I guess "low APM" pro's do something useful with every click and don't need to keep their pace up with spamming. I find measuring the skill of an SC2 pro by just the APM silly. Even in BW, I guess, they must rate a pro by more than just fast clicking, right? From all the statistic's you could measure an SC Pro on, endurance, game sense and such, APM is the most shallow. (Although seeing a Pro clicking so fast that his keyboard almost catches fire is pretty cool).
Anywho, I love statistics, please keep publishing these fun facts.
On June 26 2011 21:20 MrCeeJ wrote: I love how the 'press F2 to check my expo site still exists for the 5th time' action is given the exact same weighting as the 'building a robo to counter the DT rush I am preparing for based of scouting a second early gass' action.
In short once you can think fast enough to get what you need to do figured out, and click fast enough to do it it is all about the quality of the actions and not the quantity.
EDIT: Clearly if you can maintain your win rate, the lower the apm the better. Learning bad spam habits, over microing, wasting time, energy and resources, developing CTS/RSI or worse.
How can people still be spouting this crap when the post itself makes a strong link between the winners and high apm. Saying that they are wasting energy and giving themselves cts is an insult to the effort they have put into this game.
All quarterfinalists with the exception of socke have high apm. No discussion. These are the players with the highest win rates and the best players of the tournament.
ingame apm
Socke 137 Huk 197 July 232 Sen 215 MC 234 Bomber 188 Moon 186 Naniwa 154
Want a comparison to MLG colombus? I have multirep analysis of the champ bracket as well.
MMA 252 Losira 272 MC 233 Idra 179 Slush 184 Naniwa 160 Ret 218 Moon 196
On June 26 2011 21:34 Scorch wrote: 470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
Yes, it is average throughout the entire tournament.
Merz has always had an insanely high APM, even in beta it was extremely high. He has potential for greatness in terms of speed at least but IIRC he doesn't play that much.
On June 26 2011 21:34 Scorch wrote: 470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
Yes, it is average throughout the entire tournament.
Merz has always had an insanely high APM, even in beta it was extremely high. He has potential for greatness in terms of speed at least but IIRC he doesn't play that much.
Yes, it's the average over the whole tournament. To clarify - I also checked the APM if you take away the first 2 minutes of each game - the APM was pretty much the same (1-3 APM difference).
Merz studies to become a lawyer and have had a lot of study to do lately. Now it's summer though and he started practicing a lot more before Dreamhack and probably he'll have more time to play SC2 now .
Joinsimon is me btw. I'm currently gathering some more info and stats from the tournament - this was just the first I could find. Stay tuned for more .
Ah, very well done on these stats and I am looking forward to more! I am a bit of a stats junkie myself and always enjoy reading various statistics.
From my point of view, stats and facts are the only really valid basis for discussions. Opinions on the other hand arent of much use in a discussion. For example saying "I think Idra is the best" or "Nerf zerg, infestors are too imba!" doesn't really add to anything. But stats and facts on the other hand, at least have the potential to add to something.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
ITT, people who have low APM try to justify their low APM and pretend that it's still beta where everyone is bad and no one plays at 150 EAPM. truth is, when no one was playing on 3 base, you COULD play at below 150 APM and do everything efficiently. really not possible late game unless you're doing siege tank wars in TvT or other similar waiting games like twiddling your fingers around forcefields (which if you notice, aren't all the low APMs terrans and protoss? probably a contributing factor), and people who win with low APM could be doing better. i don't know all the players on both lists very well, but certain styles just require less APM even if that player could play faster if his build allowed. i know Goody for example plays mech which is probably the lowest APM build you could do.
On June 26 2011 21:33 Noocta wrote: I seriously don't know how they can play at pro level with less than 150-200 APM.
I play at a little bit more than 120, and i feel i'm slow as hell.
I guess "low APM" pro's do something useful with every click and don't need to keep their pace up with spamming. I find measuring the skill of an SC2 pro by just the APM silly. Even in BW, I guess, they must rate a pro by more than just fast clicking, right? From all the statistic's you could measure an SC Pro on, endurance, game sense and such, APM is the most shallow. (Although seeing a Pro clicking so fast that his keyboard almost catches fire is pretty cool).
Anywho, I love statistics, please keep publishing these fun facts.
Well, even without spam, it's quite low. I don't spam with my 120 APM, and i don't feel it's enough when you get to the point you have 3 bases to handle and the other stuff.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
So you responded to a guy called funk100 whilst quoting my post? Right.........
I don't know specifically what GoOdy does with his apm, but other low apm players don't queue 5 tanks from 1 factory. It doesn't take 200 apm to build a handful of production structures.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
So you responded to a guy called funk100 whilst quoting my post? Right.........
I don't know specifically what GoOdy does with his apm, but other low apm players don't queue 5 tanks from 1 factory. It doesn't take 200 apm to build a handful of production structures.
jesus christ I quoted funk100 and responded to him, then YOU quoted ME do you not understand how this forum works?
also yes, other low apm players dont queue up like goody does, but goody does hundreds of other things way better than those people do, you cant do everything at once if you only have 130 apm.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
So you responded to a guy called funk100 whilst quoting my post? Right.........
I don't know specifically what GoOdy does with his apm, but other low apm players don't queue 5 tanks from 1 factory. It doesn't take 200 apm to build a handful of production structures.
jesus christ I quoted funk100 and responded to him, then YOU quoted ME do you not understand how this forum works?
also yes, other low apm players dont queue up like goody does, but goody does hundreds of other things way better than those people do, you cant do everything at once if you only have 130 apm.
Clearly I was responding to "sure, thats why goody never queues up any units or anything" and nothing else. You've just agreed with me anyway so... yeah. No need to single out GoOdy's unit producing bad habit as an argument about low apm players.
I've only seen one replay of him and it was a few months back. I can't remember anything about that game other than facing someone with the Queen of Blades portrait (super early for its time) and then HDStarcraft saying "Wow Merz's apm is off the charts, let's check his player screen". All you see is him using like 200 clicks to get an SCV in position for a building.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
Should i feel bad i got to C with only like 220? =[
Even though i was Terran?
Personally i think people put too much on APM, hitting 123123123123123123123123123123123123 constantly to get 470 apm(just as an example here) doesnt make you all that fast, its a shame theres no eAPM counter in SC2 like there was in broodwar
EPT
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