As long as you have high enough APM to keep up with the multitasking that the game requires you to do, then you're fine. APM elitism is retarded at progamer level, it matters when you get into low level players when people have APMs <80 and can't keep up with what's happening in-game, but at this level it's irrelevant.
ViBE said his high APM really helps him because it allows him to always be on top of multitasking and such. Most spam is just to keep yourself as focused as possible.
I love how the 'press F2 to check my expo site still exists for the 5th time' action is given the exact same weighting as the 'building a robo to counter the DT rush I am preparing for based of scouting a second early gass' action.
In short once you can think fast enough to get what you need to do figured out, and click fast enough to do it it is all about the quality of the actions and not the quantity.
EDIT: Clearly if you can maintain your win rate, the lower the apm the better. Learning bad spam habits, over microing, wasting time, energy and resources, developing CTS/RSI or worse.
This is just gonna end up in an APM-whine thread again probably... atleast it proves that APM doesn't mean too much aslong as you have enough to do proper multitasking.
On June 26 2011 21:16 FinnGamer wrote: Isn't Ingame APM 1,33333 times slower than Real apm? You used the factor 1,39, still gives a good overlook though
On June 26 2011 21:14 Megaliskuu wrote: Thank you maybe now people will shut up about sjow having "90 apm".
He is listed with 98...
Only idiots go by sc2 apm. Its Actions Per Minute, not "Actions per poorly designed blizzard minute"
Doesnt matter. No one is gonna bother calcing out the average "real" apm 99% of the time. People will refer to the apm as shown ingame. I do agree that it's silly that blizz doesnt show real apm ingame though.
On June 26 2011 21:14 Megaliskuu wrote: Thank you maybe now people will shut up about sjow having "90 apm".
You could see in the July game on Shakura's that Sjow's didn't have the multitasking (or apm) to handle all the multi pronged attacks. I think it is a relevant point in his case.
On June 26 2011 21:16 FinnGamer wrote: Isn't Ingame APM 1,33333 times slower than Real apm? You used the factor 1,39, still gives a good overlook though
Even in BW there are player who succeed with relatively low apm--maybe not 130, but definitely down around 200. And the super high apm beyond that doesn't necessarily equate to greater success..
Frankly, I think the apm differences between the games are fairly overblown. Basic not sucking requires less apm in SC2, but if you have the apm for it there are enough apm sinks, particularly in high level micro, that you'll be able to put it to good use, as MC for example does mixing in crazy blink play with normal army control and not letting his macro ever slip.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any units or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where meRz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like SeleCT or HuK, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or IdrA seem to put more time in base management.
On June 26 2011 21:34 Scorch wrote: 470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
I'm sure I've seen quite a few 500+ games (none over 15 mins though).
On June 26 2011 21:34 Scorch wrote: 470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
Hyuk is probably the fastest player in SCBW
There are many terrans in Pro SCBW that average 400+ apm
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any units or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
a list like this should be compared to BW foreigners though, and I'm pretty sure that in BW there were several decent foreigners who had below 200 apm
Yeah the Koreans in general are much higher. An average Korean top 10 would probably be 350 or something.
This post is just wrong.
MC, Bomber, July, were all at that tournament. They're nowhere near 350, they're top Koreans. Top koreans don't "average" 350.
I think he may** have been referring to BW professionals. Current SCII Koreans bar Losira, probs hit around the same as MC. Don't forget MC, Losira (ThunderfOu) bomber, etc are all borderline BW-progamers... B-teamers at best. (MVP started for Woonjin stars because they really didn't have a good terran at that time).
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
a list like this should be compared to BW foreigners though, and I'm pretty sure that in BW there were several decent foreigners who had below 200 apm
Yeah the Koreans in general are much higher. An average Korean top 10 would probably be 350 or something.
This post is just wrong.
MC, Bomber, July, were all at that tournament. They're nowhere near 350, they're top Koreans. Top koreans don't "average" 350.
Hyperbole, sue me. MC and July are both near 350 (real apm which is what I was referring to). Top Koreans are ~200 SC2 apm minimum with some higher. So fine, average 325 or so. Whatever.
On June 26 2011 21:20 MrCeeJ wrote: I love how the 'press F2 to check my expo site still exists for the 5th time' action is given the exact same weighting as the 'building a robo to counter the DT rush I am preparing for based of scouting a second early gass' action.
In short once you can think fast enough to get what you need to do figured out, and click fast enough to do it it is all about the quality of the actions and not the quantity.
EDIT: Clearly if you can maintain your win rate, the lower the apm the better. Learning bad spam habits, over microing, wasting time, energy and resources, developing CTS/RSI or worse.
As someone who had CTS/RSI and are now cured. Don't spread that bullshit, you dont get it from using computers - which is good news.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 341 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
True. I play random in BW and I hate getting Zerg cause I have so much trouble late game moving the incredibly fast cracklings around the map. At that point it's so hard to avoid minefield. I can't imagine how ZerO or Jaedong does it so well late game (in the sense that their armies move like one). Plus the fact that you have to burrow Lurkers, Swarm + Consume with Defilers, clone with Scourge... Crazy.
Its nice that players can succeed with apm around 100, however I doubt that they can go super far with that. I mean for example if you are facing MMA who does multi-pronged harass, then you need more effective apm to handle all while still building units, doing upgrades and following your gameplan.
Im curious about how much merz used his apm as effective or just spamming to keep hands warm.
I feel with lower apm you must be a very intelligent and strategic person to handle everything well at pro level, and if you got higher apm you can be more of a reactive person and just respond to what the other person does.
Joinsimon is me btw. I'm currently gathering some more info and stats from the tournament - this was just the first I could find. Stay tuned for more .
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
It's also sad that people can have 500+ apm and still be in bronze :p.
This one guy I was playing with was clearly bad, but in the replay he had like 800 apm, dont know how he got that much, even if your spamming...800+ lol. The actual game started..it fell down to 90 :D
On June 26 2011 21:34 Scorch wrote: 470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
i think effort vs kal in the semis of korean air osl season 1 was a series in which the 2nd game was a 4pool vs defense, the microing went on for several minutes until effort prevailed. after the game they showed the game statistics and both had an average apm of over 480 and a peak apm of close to 600. but that game was only something like 8-9 minutes long.
You have to remember that in BW playing with very high APM comes a lot more natural for most players simply because the game requires you to do a ton more tasks that isn't just spamming for no reason.
One of the thing I actually find somewhat annoying when playing SC2 is how in games you sometimes need 350 APM to do everything correctly and sometimes you only need 80 APM even if you're late in the game.
Just creates a weird "flow" when playing for me atleast.
On June 26 2011 21:33 Noocta wrote: I seriously don't know how they can play at pro level with less than 150-200 APM.
I play at a little bit more than 120, and i feel i'm slow as hell.
I guess "low APM" pro's do something useful with every click and don't need to keep their pace up with spamming. I find measuring the skill of an SC2 pro by just the APM silly. Even in BW, I guess, they must rate a pro by more than just fast clicking, right? From all the statistic's you could measure an SC Pro on, endurance, game sense and such, APM is the most shallow. (Although seeing a Pro clicking so fast that his keyboard almost catches fire is pretty cool).
Anywho, I love statistics, please keep publishing these fun facts.
On June 26 2011 21:20 MrCeeJ wrote: I love how the 'press F2 to check my expo site still exists for the 5th time' action is given the exact same weighting as the 'building a robo to counter the DT rush I am preparing for based of scouting a second early gass' action.
In short once you can think fast enough to get what you need to do figured out, and click fast enough to do it it is all about the quality of the actions and not the quantity.
EDIT: Clearly if you can maintain your win rate, the lower the apm the better. Learning bad spam habits, over microing, wasting time, energy and resources, developing CTS/RSI or worse.
How can people still be spouting this crap when the post itself makes a strong link between the winners and high apm. Saying that they are wasting energy and giving themselves cts is an insult to the effort they have put into this game.
All quarterfinalists with the exception of socke have high apm. No discussion. These are the players with the highest win rates and the best players of the tournament.
ingame apm
Socke 137 Huk 197 July 232 Sen 215 MC 234 Bomber 188 Moon 186 Naniwa 154
Want a comparison to MLG colombus? I have multirep analysis of the champ bracket as well.
MMA 252 Losira 272 MC 233 Idra 179 Slush 184 Naniwa 160 Ret 218 Moon 196
On June 26 2011 21:34 Scorch wrote: 470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
Yes, it is average throughout the entire tournament.
Merz has always had an insanely high APM, even in beta it was extremely high. He has potential for greatness in terms of speed at least but IIRC he doesn't play that much.
On June 26 2011 21:34 Scorch wrote: 470 APM? As an average over the course of the whole tournament? That's faster than anything I've ever heard about BW pros. To my knowledge, there are quite a few who can play at around 400 APM. It is said that by.hero is sick fast, how quick can he go? What's the highest recorded APM over a game (not July's 800 APM peak) in televised matches?
Yes, it is average throughout the entire tournament.
Merz has always had an insanely high APM, even in beta it was extremely high. He has potential for greatness in terms of speed at least but IIRC he doesn't play that much.
Yes, it's the average over the whole tournament. To clarify - I also checked the APM if you take away the first 2 minutes of each game - the APM was pretty much the same (1-3 APM difference).
Merz studies to become a lawyer and have had a lot of study to do lately. Now it's summer though and he started practicing a lot more before Dreamhack and probably he'll have more time to play SC2 now .
Joinsimon is me btw. I'm currently gathering some more info and stats from the tournament - this was just the first I could find. Stay tuned for more .
Ah, very well done on these stats and I am looking forward to more! I am a bit of a stats junkie myself and always enjoy reading various statistics.
From my point of view, stats and facts are the only really valid basis for discussions. Opinions on the other hand arent of much use in a discussion. For example saying "I think Idra is the best" or "Nerf zerg, infestors are too imba!" doesn't really add to anything. But stats and facts on the other hand, at least have the potential to add to something.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
ITT, people who have low APM try to justify their low APM and pretend that it's still beta where everyone is bad and no one plays at 150 EAPM. truth is, when no one was playing on 3 base, you COULD play at below 150 APM and do everything efficiently. really not possible late game unless you're doing siege tank wars in TvT or other similar waiting games like twiddling your fingers around forcefields (which if you notice, aren't all the low APMs terrans and protoss? probably a contributing factor), and people who win with low APM could be doing better. i don't know all the players on both lists very well, but certain styles just require less APM even if that player could play faster if his build allowed. i know Goody for example plays mech which is probably the lowest APM build you could do.
On June 26 2011 21:33 Noocta wrote: I seriously don't know how they can play at pro level with less than 150-200 APM.
I play at a little bit more than 120, and i feel i'm slow as hell.
I guess "low APM" pro's do something useful with every click and don't need to keep their pace up with spamming. I find measuring the skill of an SC2 pro by just the APM silly. Even in BW, I guess, they must rate a pro by more than just fast clicking, right? From all the statistic's you could measure an SC Pro on, endurance, game sense and such, APM is the most shallow. (Although seeing a Pro clicking so fast that his keyboard almost catches fire is pretty cool).
Anywho, I love statistics, please keep publishing these fun facts.
Well, even without spam, it's quite low. I don't spam with my 120 APM, and i don't feel it's enough when you get to the point you have 3 bases to handle and the other stuff.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
So you responded to a guy called funk100 whilst quoting my post? Right.........
I don't know specifically what GoOdy does with his apm, but other low apm players don't queue 5 tanks from 1 factory. It doesn't take 200 apm to build a handful of production structures.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
So you responded to a guy called funk100 whilst quoting my post? Right.........
I don't know specifically what GoOdy does with his apm, but other low apm players don't queue 5 tanks from 1 factory. It doesn't take 200 apm to build a handful of production structures.
jesus christ I quoted funk100 and responded to him, then YOU quoted ME do you not understand how this forum works?
also yes, other low apm players dont queue up like goody does, but goody does hundreds of other things way better than those people do, you cant do everything at once if you only have 130 apm.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
So you responded to a guy called funk100 whilst quoting my post? Right.........
I don't know specifically what GoOdy does with his apm, but other low apm players don't queue 5 tanks from 1 factory. It doesn't take 200 apm to build a handful of production structures.
jesus christ I quoted funk100 and responded to him, then YOU quoted ME do you not understand how this forum works?
also yes, other low apm players dont queue up like goody does, but goody does hundreds of other things way better than those people do, you cant do everything at once if you only have 130 apm.
Clearly I was responding to "sure, thats why goody never queues up any units or anything" and nothing else. You've just agreed with me anyway so... yeah. No need to single out GoOdy's unit producing bad habit as an argument about low apm players.
I've only seen one replay of him and it was a few months back. I can't remember anything about that game other than facing someone with the Queen of Blades portrait (super early for its time) and then HDStarcraft saying "Wow Merz's apm is off the charts, let's check his player screen". All you see is him using like 200 clicks to get an SCV in position for a building.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
Should i feel bad i got to C with only like 220? =[
Even though i was Terran?
Personally i think people put too much on APM, hitting 123123123123123123123123123123123123 constantly to get 470 apm(just as an example here) doesnt make you all that fast, its a shame theres no eAPM counter in SC2 like there was in broodwar
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
sure, thats why goody never queues up any unithttp://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=l&ai=BBJ1h0SwHTqipC8mbsga12pF32tOApwL6-JzFG8CNtwGQvwUQARgBIKmwsh04AFCltbabA2CVgrSCwAegAd7n8e0DsgESd3d3LnRlYW1saXF1aWQubmV0ugEJNDY4eDYwX2FzyAEC2gFIaHR0cDovL3d3dy50ZWFtbGlxdWlkLm5ldC9mb3J1bS9wb3N0bWVzc2FnZS5waHA_cXVvdGU9NDgmdG9waWNfaWQ9MjM3NTgyqQItjf7g08a3PsgCwqPODagDAcgDFfUDAAEAwA&num=1&sig=AGiWqtxnEdhl48YIr2BHdpS4WYD-FGoN4Q&client=ca-pub-7048914824812959&adurl=http://pixel.everesttech.net/2603/cq%3Fev_sid%3D3%26ev_ln%3Dvideo%26ev_crx%3D7298582754%26ev_mt%3D%26ev_n%3Dd%26ev_ltx%3D%26ev_pl%3Dwww.teamliquid.net%26url%3Dhttp%253A//www.kapihospital.de/%253Fref%253Dgokhlde&nm=4s or anything
That's not related to APM, it's related more to lack of production buildings. Other low apm players don't do it.
So that obviously still clearly shows that his 130 apm are not used in the most effective way? Even top players in SC2 are still not that amazing compared to BW, saying you surely dont need more apm is kinda silly
What? No clue what you're trying to say or how it's related to GoOdy's unit queues.
how is it hard to understand funk100 says 130 apm is enough to do all you need to do in sc2 if you use it efficiently. I say thats wrong because goody clearly could considerably improve his play. Neither are his 130 apm enough, nor does he use those 130 apm in the most efficient way.
also you say "its just related to lack of production buildings." but guess what, building more production buildings, keeping up with your macro like that takes time and APM too.
So you responded to a guy called funk100 whilst quoting my post? Right.........
I don't know specifically what GoOdy does with his apm, but other low apm players don't queue 5 tanks from 1 factory. It doesn't take 200 apm to build a handful of production structures.
jesus christ I quoted funk100 and responded to him, then YOU quoted ME do you not understand how this forum works?
also yes, other low apm players dont queue up like goody does, but goody does hundreds of other things way better than those people do, you cant do everything at once if you only have 130 apm.
Clearly I was responding to "sure, thats why goody never queues up any units or anything" and nothing else. You've just agreed with me anyway so... yeah. No need to single out GoOdy's unit producing bad habit as an argument about low apm players.
lolol, yeah youre right, you won the argument haha
Just more good advertisement for spamming being useless. Also whos gonna be laughing in the end when they can win without getting any carpal tunnel or similar injuries? You should win with the minimum APM needed
On June 26 2011 22:34 Minaegi wrote: Just more good advertisement for spamming being useless. Also whos gonna be laughing in the end when they can win without getting any carpal tunnel or similar injuries? You should win with the minimum APM needed
carpal tunnel and spamming has nothing to do with each other. read about carpal tunnel and you would know that.
For everybody who says APM is meaningless, it really isn't, for example if a zerg had less than 100 apm they are not going to be able to effectively inject, spread creep, and do everything else, e.g. defend drops and harrass vs a terran, or constantly drop and harrass vs a protoss if they play that style. Having low APM isn't the end of the world but it limits the strategies you can do massively.
I used zerg as my example as I play zerg so know it better but it applies to the other races too, I think Goody said himself that mech suits his style due to his low apm but good decision making.
On June 26 2011 22:28 K_Dilkington wrote: Doesn't seem that you need more than 100~ apm tbh.
Not as Terran or Protoss, indeed. Like TLO said when he switched to zerg a while ago: "Even with 600 APM I feel like always having something to do as Zerg" Qft.
Of note: the player with the higher APM won the game 58.46% of the time. If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time (from MLG columbus).
So APM does mean something at least. At average the person with 50 or more APM than his opponent wins twice as much.
On June 26 2011 21:16 FinnGamer wrote: Isn't Ingame APM 1,33333 times slower than Real apm? You used the factor 1,39, still gives a good overlook though
1.39 is the real factor. It's been tested many times, and it's correct. I just use 1.4 for simplicity though.
How can people still be spouting this crap when the post itself makes a strong link between the winners and high apm.
Yep, Thorzain being 7th slowest player at DH sure does back up that, its not like he won something big lately.
Of note: the player with the higher APM won the game 58.46% of the time. If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time (from MLG columbus).
So APM does mean something at least. At average the person with 50 or more APM than his opponent wins twice as much.
What a good samplepool you got there, surely we can conclude something from that.
Of note: the player with the higher APM won the game 58.46% of the time. If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time (from MLG columbus).
So APM does mean something at least. At average the person with 50 or more APM than his opponent wins twice as much.
What a good samplepool you got there, surely we can conclude something from that.
Thorzain spikes a lot in his apm though, i've seen him do a lot of marinesplits and such against banes/seige tank lines that take quite fast hands to do, I think the real answer is a lot of very good players don't spam and their average apm is shown to be lower.
Thanks for posting this, I find it interesting to see that not all pros have insanely high apm. Good mechanics and strategy is really the key it appears.
How can people still be spouting this crap when the post itself makes a strong link between the winners and high apm.
Yep, Thorzain being 7th slowest player at DH sure does back up that, its not like he won something big lately.
Of note: the player with the higher APM won the game 58.46% of the time. If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time (from MLG columbus).
So APM does mean something at least. At average the person with 50 or more APM than his opponent wins twice as much.
What a good samplepool you got there, surely we can conclude something from that.
Thorzain spikes a lot in his apm though, i've seen him do a lot of marinesplits and such against banes/seige tank lines that take quite fast hands to do, I think the real answer is a lot of very good players don't spam and their average apm is shown to be lower.
Marinesplits does not require high apm, it does require good mouse control though. But I do think you are right about some good players being able to go to super high apm whenever needed but dont spam.
My APM is not close to being 339/470 effective APM though. I've had a lot of people tell me I spam way too much and It's true, it's just so built into my "autopilot" i.e the way I'm used to play that whenever I try to stop the spam it gets awkward and I feel out of my element. For me the spam has always helpt me kept in "pace" of the game as in I'm always going at the same speed rather than starting out slow then gradually become faster. I still think spamming to a certain extent can be good for you to keep the pace up and your hands warm but I obviously overdo it.
I blame NaDa's early FPVod (vs SirSoni I believe) where they show his keyboard and he went at like 300+ apm. I was like 12 at the time and figured "hey that's how I'm going to play" and now it's just so natural to me that I don't think about it.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
can you tell me how it is sad? sc2 is a different game where they made it so you have more time to think about strategy rather than bringing ur new workers to work. Sc1 was just a battle of mechanics, aka "who is the better machine".
Of note: the player with the higher APM won the game 58.46% of the time. If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time (from MLG columbus).
So APM does mean something at least. At average the person with 50 or more APM than his opponent wins twice as much.
What a good samplepool you got there, surely we can conclude something from that.
It's a better sample than what you have (which is nothing). Please come up with a better sample to prove your point.
How can people still be spouting this crap when the post itself makes a strong link between the winners and high apm.
Yep, Thorzain being 7th slowest player at DH sure does back up that, its not like he won something big lately.
Of note: the player with the higher APM won the game 58.46% of the time. If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time (from MLG columbus).
So APM does mean something at least. At average the person with 50 or more APM than his opponent wins twice as much.
What a good samplepool you got there, surely we can conclude something from that.
Thorzain spikes a lot in his apm though, i've seen him do a lot of marinesplits and such against banes/seige tank lines that take quite fast hands to do, I think the real answer is a lot of very good players don't spam and their average apm is shown to be lower.
Yeah about Thorzain it's probably that he is fast when he need to, and don't spam to maintain his "highest apm" like other players do.
Obviously there is a correlation between apm and winning games. The more interesting question would be: is high apm is a "symptom" of good play or a requirement for it?
I found that for me, having low apm (relative to my average) is mostly a sign of being clueless what to do during a game. In games where I always know what to do and thus have something to direct my attention/apm to I'm significantly faster. So I like to think of high apm as a symptom.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
That's not sad, that goes to the strength of the game, quite trying to put anti-sc2 comments into this.
I doubt people like this will last tbh. The people that have really high APM like MMA, MC, HuK have it not because you need 300 APM to macro in SC2 but because they're constantly active on the map with observers, scouts, great unit control and multi-pronged attacks. If you look at people like SjoW he has no idea what's going on outside his base and he falls apart when people attack him everywhere.
A high APM could mean anything. It can mean that a player is very fast at executing multiple tasks, or it could just mean that a player is spamming. (I average 90 APM but when I want to spam I can have 350 SC2 average on a 1 hour game)
However a low APM means that you are not doing all the actions you would want to do.
The real question is how much APM do you NEED at minimum to keep up with your brain and decisions you take ? From OP's results and personal experience, I would say that 120-130 APM lets you play SC2 to the full of your potential, but that's just my opinion.
It would be interesting to see graphs of the APM over the duration of a game. Or maybe just the highest spikes of each player. I know that I only play around 80 - 90 APM over the duration of a game but spike well into the 200s when microing my army.
On June 26 2011 23:06 meRz wrote: My APM is not close to being 339/470 effective APM though. I've had a lot of people tell me I spam way too much and It's true, it's just so built into my "autopilot" i.e the way I'm used to play that whenever I try to stop the spam it gets awkward and I feel out of my element. For me the spam has always helpt me kept in "pace" of the game as in I'm always going at the same speed rather than starting out slow then gradually become faster. I still think spamming to a certain extent can be good for you to keep the pace up and your hands warm but I obviously overdo it.
I blame NaDa's early FPVod (vs SirSoni I believe) where they show his keyboard and he went at like 300+ apm. I was like 12 at the time and figured "hey that's how I'm going to play" and now it's just so natural to me that I don't think about it.
High APM shows potential obviously it's not something to feel ashamed about. Perhaps having a higher APM you should try to take advantage of low APM opponents with multi harass. As someone who always gets matched up against people with higher APM this is really effective against me.
On June 26 2011 21:16 FinnGamer wrote: Isn't Ingame APM 1,33333 times slower than Real apm? You used the factor 1,39, still gives a good overlook though
its 1.38 or 1.39
also: 130 apm in sc2 = 180 real apm (alot of the top foreigners in bw had around 200 apm so this is not really anything new)
heck, there were even terran progamers with around 200 apm (SEri[ScM] for instance)
SjoW doesnt really have 100apm - he has ~140 and if used efficiently enough you can be a good player with it. People need to realize ingame time in sc2 is faster than real time
nice list but merz made so many little mistakes with his high apm. I still remember the ghosts on terminus as he played grubby that started shotin at the destroyable devices and the ghosts got forcefielded cuz he just clicked 1000th times somewhere :DD
On June 26 2011 22:55 Paladia wrote: Of note: the player with the higher APM won the game 58.46% of the time. If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time (from MLG columbus).
So APM does mean something at least. At average the person with 50 or more APM than his opponent wins twice as much.
this is a logical fallacy
just because someone with higher apm won more does not mean their apm was responsible, directly or otherwise, for the win
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
that being said the lack of game mechanics compared to sc1 gives the players longer longevity, theres a reason why nestea is owning everyone at 30 : D
so i guess its good in that regard = ]
Well SCII will be a more tolerant game, our pros won't have to be 15-22 year old Korean beasts with insane reaction times and hand-speed
Yeah in some way, it lessens the gap so those with lower apm can compete with higher ones unlike in BW. Because in BW 100(or ~130) apm isnt going to cut it since you will get destroyed after a few minutes. In SC2, at least for now it's fine to have lower apm.
Also I think it was axslav or something that has one of the lowest apm as a pro player 60-70 or so.
Is the raw data available somewhere for all players that participated in the tournament? It would be interesting to see if there is a real correlation between placement in the tournament and apm. There are actually some statistical tools which make it possible to do this.
What i've noticed is that said low apm mostly fall apart if the game gets really fast, there being more battles, constantly trying to be active on the map harass etc. Sadly Sc2 isn't there yet, as most games consists of building up a ball and 1a vs 1a into each other.
I think when the game picks up pace for the whole duration of the match, these low apm player will fade away
Wow, I was expecting July to have the highest by a lot. This just shows how little an impact APM really has on your ability to play SC2. That said, I have noticed that Sjow and Goody have sub par mechanics and their lack of APM does hurt their multitasking. For an example of this, watch Sjow's games against July from MLG Columbus. He just couldn't keep up with the God of War.
You need fast hands for short duration but you don't have to spam 470+ whole game. People "spam" whole game as they have problems shifting from low to high state.
Statements "90 APM is enough" should transform into: "90 average apm is enough if you can speed up to 300+ in battles."
I think it's better to look at eapm. Flash/jaedong/bisu/kal etc. are known for their really high eapm even though they aren't the absolute fastest players. Maybe jaedong is but ok :p
I don't think it really matters in sc2 though, most of the things can be done with like 100-200 apm if youre efficient.
I was lucky enough to get to watch July play at MLG. Although he doesn't have the absolute highest APM, his mouse accuracy was insane. The TL community knows that APM doesn't matter, it's effective APM that's important.
Also, I was surprised to see Grubby, the WC3 legend, with such low APM. Can a former WC3 player tell me, was there no APM spamming in WC3?
On June 27 2011 00:25 Datum wrote: I was lucky enough to get to watch July play at MLG. Although he doesn't have the absolute highest APM, his mouse accuracy was insane. The TL community knows that APM doesn't matter, it's effective APM that's important.
Also, I was surprised to see Grubby, the WC3 legend, with such low APM. Can a former WC3 player tell me, was there no APM spamming in WC3?
There were numerous APM spam players in wc3 yeah. FoCuS springs to mind as a crazy high apm spam player, not as successful as Lyn or Grubby despite having way higher APM.
On June 26 2011 23:06 meRz wrote: My APM is not close to being 339/470 effective APM though. I've had a lot of people tell me I spam way too much and It's true, it's just so built into my "autopilot" i.e the way I'm used to play that whenever I try to stop the spam it gets awkward and I feel out of my element. For me the spam has always helpt me kept in "pace" of the game as in I'm always going at the same speed rather than starting out slow then gradually become faster. I still think spamming to a certain extent can be good for you to keep the pace up and your hands warm but I obviously overdo it.
I blame NaDa's early FPVod (vs SirSoni I believe) where they show his keyboard and he went at like 300+ apm. I was like 12 at the time and figured "hey that's how I'm going to play" and now it's just so natural to me that I don't think about it.
It does show potential though. Are you considering going "pro" and perhaps taking a break from school for a while? How much do you generally play?
I heard you went to law school (which I do as well, at SU), is it at UU?
On June 26 2011 23:06 meRz wrote: My APM is not close to being 339/470 effective APM though. I've had a lot of people tell me I spam way too much and It's true, it's just so built into my "autopilot" i.e the way I'm used to play that whenever I try to stop the spam it gets awkward and I feel out of my element. For me the spam has always helpt me kept in "pace" of the game as in I'm always going at the same speed rather than starting out slow then gradually become faster. I still think spamming to a certain extent can be good for you to keep the pace up and your hands warm but I obviously overdo it.
I blame NaDa's early FPVod (vs SirSoni I believe) where they show his keyboard and he went at like 300+ apm. I was like 12 at the time and figured "hey that's how I'm going to play" and now it's just so natural to me that I don't think about it.
It does show potential though. Are you considering going "pro" and perhaps taking a break from school for a while? How much do you generally play?
I heard you went to law school (which I do as well, at SU), is it at UU?
Yes it's UU. I play as much as I can, seeing how you're also in Law School you probably understand how much that is. But School in general has suffered a lot due to Sc2 for the last year, I haven't failed a course as of yet but I'm always on the verge of failing, most likely due to that I don't spend a lot of time studying.
I'm playing fulltime this summer, before Dreamhack I had about 14 days to prepare and I practiced at least 8 hours a day on average, and I could've made it out of my group if I hadn't slipped up against players I should beat or at least be on the same level as (naama and grubby). So I think after a month more or so I might be able to be a lot more stable in my play and keep up the consistency, if I feel that I'm on a decent enough level at the end of this summer (late august) I'll probably apply for a break at my school, to have my spot secured, and focus on professional gaming for at least a year or so.Otherwise I'll probably quit professional gaming and just finish school.
The way it is now, I'm still not quite on par with the top players, meanwhile school is suffering (seeing how grades are very important in Law school) so I'm kind of in a lose/lose situation at the moment. But we'll see how it all works out in August .
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
On the contrary. It's quite sad that some people still value apm over strategy as a winning factor. I'm glad this game was improved over the monkey-like actions from BW.
If you ask me its way more impressive to play on a pro level with lesser APM just think about it some players have around 150 APM less than others and still can play on the same level as other pros.
On June 26 2011 23:06 meRz wrote: My APM is not close to being 339/470 effective APM though. I've had a lot of people tell me I spam way too much and It's true, it's just so built into my "autopilot" i.e the way I'm used to play that whenever I try to stop the spam it gets awkward and I feel out of my element. For me the spam has always helpt me kept in "pace" of the game as in I'm always going at the same speed rather than starting out slow then gradually become faster. I still think spamming to a certain extent can be good for you to keep the pace up and your hands warm but I obviously overdo it.
I blame NaDa's early FPVod (vs SirSoni I believe) where they show his keyboard and he went at like 300+ apm. I was like 12 at the time and figured "hey that's how I'm going to play" and now it's just so natural to me that I don't think about it.
It does show potential though. Are you considering going "pro" and perhaps taking a break from school for a while? How much do you generally play?
I heard you went to law school (which I do as well, at SU), is it at UU?
Yes it's UU. I play as much as I can, seeing how you're also in Law School you probably understand how much that is. But School in general has suffered a lot due to Sc2 for the last year, I haven't failed a course as of yet but I'm always on the verge of failing, most likely due to that I don't spend a lot of time studying.
I'm playing fulltime this summer, before Dreamhack I had about 14 days to prepare and I practiced at least 8 hours a day on average, and I could've made it out of my group if I hadn't slipped up against players I should beat or at least be on the same level as (naama and grubby). So I think after a month more or so I might be able to be a lot more stable in my play and keep up the consistency, if I feel that I'm on a decent enough level at the end of this summer (late august) I'll probably apply for a break at my school, to have my spot secured, and focus on professional gaming for at least a year or so.Otherwise I'll probably quit professional gaming and just finish school.
The way it is now, I'm still not quite on par with the top players, meanwhile school is suffering (seeing how grades are very important in Law school) so I'm kind of in a lose/lose situation at the moment. But we'll see how it all works out in August .
I can understand that, especially considering UU has much more mandatory classes (while we have almost none). Grades are indeed extremely important, with poor grades, unless you have connections or are lucky, the degree isn't of much use. As you then can expect to end up as a consumer guide or alike (konsumentvägledare).
With that in mind, it is likely better to take a break from school for a while and focus on gaming or quit gaming altogether. As doing both at a mediocre level isn't a very viable strategy. We don't have to apply for a break though, people just quit for a year or two and then show up again without any notice. As long as you have been accepted into the program once and you have not gone to the courses previously, you are guaranteed a spot.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
On the contrary. It's quite sad that some people still value apm over strategy as a winning factor. I'm glad this game was improved over the monkey-like actions from BW.
Woah, easy with the BW bashing. Let's remember that you're limited to the number of units you can put on one hot key, and there is no movement queuing.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I just tried to watch a replay for 1 real time minute (using stopwatch) and seeing how long it went on faster, I got 1 min 24 sec. Then we divide those 84 sec's with 60 and get 1,4 So to get real apm multiply in game amp with 1,4. I think I did it pretty well, but u can make it go on longer to get a more precise number if you want.
On June 27 2011 00:25 Datum wrote: I was lucky enough to get to watch July play at MLG. Although he doesn't have the absolute highest APM, his mouse accuracy was insane. The TL community knows that APM doesn't matter, it's effective APM that's important.
Also, I was surprised to see Grubby, the WC3 legend, with such low APM. Can a former WC3 player tell me, was there no APM spamming in WC3?
There was APM spamming in WC3. Having 180-200 APM in WC3 was considered high. WC3 didn't really rely on super multitasking and map control like SC2 did. Once you made 5 gold workers and 7-8 lumber harvesters (HU/Orc/Elf), you only macroed through a few unit producers. Most of your APM actually came from microing your heroes/units. There were quite a few spammers though, such as Focus who had around 330-360 APM in WC3.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
On the contrary. It's quite sad that some people still value apm over strategy as a winning factor. I'm glad this game was improved over the monkey-like actions from BW.
don't be kidding me. bw has more strategy and sc2 is more monkey-like.
On June 27 2011 01:45 Froadac wrote: Could you please edit in how these people placed? Is there any sort of correlation.
Sure, there we go. I added the average position as well. I considered everyone who finished in the group stage as just placing as 32 though, ranking them individually isn't very viable.
It appears all the APM threads are infested with people desperately trying to convince themselves their low speed is completely acceptable in high level play.
On June 27 2011 04:05 nira wrote: It appears all the APM threads are infested with people desperately trying to convince themselves their low speed is completely acceptable in high level play.
Indeed and it's hilarious because this people (including myself) have no way to reach high level play :D
On June 27 2011 04:05 nira wrote: It appears all the APM threads are infested with people desperately trying to convince themselves their low speed is completely acceptable in high level play.
Why trying? This thread an the others pretty much prove that high APM is not necessary to be considered a top player
The longer the game goes on, the higher average apm people will have since people will get better at multitasking. It will be interesting to see how a Sjow or a Goody will do when this happens.
I thought Idra had very high APM (relative to other pros, such as making top 15 or so), but I guess not. I suppose it's just somewhat high. Perhaps his low-aggression (macro) style makes it so that it's not as possible to get high apm without spamming more.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
a list like this should be compared to BW foreigners though, and I'm pretty sure that in BW there were several decent foreigners who had below 200 apm
Yeah the Koreans in general are much higher. An average Korean top 10 would probably be 350 or something.
This post is just wrong.
MC, Bomber, July, were all at that tournament. They're nowhere near 350, they're top Koreans. Top koreans don't "average" 350.
The way I interpreted it, you're actually the one that is wrong. They were talking about BW. BW means Brood War, which isn't the game that you are talking about. Your mention of those players refers to SC2, which means StarCraft 2. They are not the same game. True, there are Koreans in both, but "top 10" doesn't combine both games...
I wonder why all the great eroupeions have such low apm, where they not used to LANs or somthing? I wouldn't think so with the LANS they have been to but they didn't do well either. How does this compare to their apm on bnet?
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
can you tell me how it is sad? sc2 is a different game where they made it so you have more time to think about strategy rather than bringing ur new workers to work. Sc1 was just a battle of mechanics, aka "who is the better machine".
Worst post I've ever read on TL.
Both games require insane timing and strategy, one just requires a bit less mechanics, and before you call me a BW elitist, I only play sc2 now, I'm just saying it would be good for the competitiveness of the game if it took a bit more.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
rep and iccup id? i call bs
It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it?
On June 27 2011 05:56 Meteora.GB wrote: According to the Liquipedia sAviOr had relatively low APM by progamer standards and still he's one of the bonjwas in Brood War, so APM is meaningless.
Low apm relative to other bw pros. Not low overall. It's not like savior was playing at 150 apm or anything.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
How is it sad? APM is meaningless, this has been known for a long time.
I think it's a very very good thing that intelligence/decision making/timing/positioning etc are vastly more important than raw hand speed.
Not meaningless.
However, it is true that it is not the sole indicator of gameplay performance and skill. But, as opposed to your very extreme position, I believe that APM is incredibly important depending on the race as different races require different amounts of APM and more multi-tasking can be performed in game. Mechanics are almost as important as strategy. That's why StarCraft is a Real-Time strategy game.
I think that this just proves that people with 100+apm could be much better if they used their actions for useful things rather than spam, given that some pros have low apm and are still very boss.
On June 27 2011 05:56 Meteora.GB wrote: According to the Liquipedia sAviOr had relatively low APM by progamer standards and still he's one of the bonjwas in Brood War, so APM is meaningless.
And that's exactly why Savior stopped being a bonjwa, so APM is extremely relevant when we talk about multitasking.
Low APM is bad simply because it is easily exploitable by players with good multitasking and high APM. I can't tell you how many games I've seen Axslav and Goody get dismantled by simple two-pronged attacks or unexpected drops. The series between Axslav and Major at MLG was particularly painful to watch.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
rep and iccup id? i call bs
It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it?
Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
On June 26 2011 21:19 funk100 wrote: [quote] 130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
rep and iccup id? i call bs
It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it?
Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
Ya im 99% sure hes Bullshitting too. And really it doesnt add to the OP much at all. Dont know how this got into BW
On June 26 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote: [quote] Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
rep and iccup id? i call bs
It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it?
Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
Ya im 99% sure hes Bullshitting too. And really it doesnt add to the OP much at all. Dont know how this got into BW
didn't kroll get A- in like 2 seasons or something? it seems pretty unlikely but after the kroll thread i don't completely dismiss it. I played like 5 seasons and only ever got to C- =/ that was after like 2 years of playing fastest lol.
wow 470 is so much, though honestly in this game you only need like 180, hell theres some really good players with less than that, this game isnt as hard as BW. Even wc3 recured more apm imo, though wc3 apm requirement went up and down (in battle out of battle)
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
rep and iccup id? i call bs
It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it?
Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
Ya im 99% sure hes Bullshitting too. And really it doesnt add to the OP much at all. Dont know how this got into BW
didn't kroll get A- in like 2 seasons or something? it seems pretty unlikely but after the kroll thread i don't completely dismiss it. I played like 5 seasons and only ever got to C- =/ that was after like 2 years of playing fastest lol.
On June 27 2011 05:56 Meteora.GB wrote: According to the Liquipedia sAviOr had relatively low APM by progamer standards and still he's one of the bonjwas in Brood War, so APM is meaningless.
And that's exactly why Savior stopped being a bonjwa, so APM is extremely relevant when we talk about multitasking.
Low APM is bad simply because it is easily exploitable by players with good multitasking and high APM. I can't tell you how many games I've seen Axslav and Goody get dismantled by simple two-pronged attacks or unexpected drops. The series between Axslav and Major at MLG was particularly painful to watch.
Yep this. July picking apart Sjow too. As more and more top players play like that, people with low APM won't survive. They already couldn't in Korea imo.
The most interesting thing to me with this is how extremely incorrect blizzards apm is. Atleast when you get over 100apm or so. Also why does the average apm drop with maybe 10-20 when the game ends even if you spam with 500apm or whatever, it still mysteriously drops.
I have around 200real apm (270 in an intense game with little techchange for a long time and 140 in stalemates) and I feel that my apm is to low when it comes to some micro stuff, especially speedlings but also burrowmicro takes way over 200 if you want units to be build while playing. Of course in bw it was even worse when you tried to juggle 36slings while building them out of 2-3hatches and adding new ones while the old died.
Another (maybe completely irrelevant but hopefully interesting) thing I noticed was that in BW FrozenArbiter had higher apm than me in probably 90% of our games. Recently we played 10games and I had higher than him 9-1. Okay in bw we both usually offraced (or well I played random but when I got Z I messed around) and now I played my main race all games and he offraced but still interesting. I have no idea what conclusions we could draw from this. Probably none but it is still an extreme difference in casual game apm and our skill difference is most likely higher in sc2 than in bw since well he is a pro now.
i wonder at what point does spamming actually hurt your overall play its obvious u dont need ridiculously high apm to play SC2 and overall i think playing at a more reasonable pace, maybe 200-250 apm will do you better than trying to play at 350-450
On June 27 2011 07:21 mcleod wrote: i wonder at what point does spamming actually hurt your overall play its obvious u dont need ridiculously high apm to play SC2 and overall i think playing at a more reasonable pace, maybe 200-250 apm will do you better than trying to play at 350-450
I think if you "force" yourself to play faster. It will hurt your gameplay imo. But if it comes naturally, and its just second nature to play that fast then it would be fine. Though I think it doesn't hurt to have a lot of APM as long as you're using it, ie constantly cycling through your stuff, etc etc. Its good to be able to multitask like a boss
On June 27 2011 07:21 mcleod wrote: i wonder at what point does spamming actually hurt your overall play its obvious u dont need ridiculously high apm to play SC2 and overall i think playing at a more reasonable pace, maybe 200-250 apm will do you better than trying to play at 350-450
I think if you "force" yourself to play faster. It will hurt your gameplay imo. But if it comes naturally, and its just second nature to play that fast then it would be fine. Though I think it doesn't hurt to have a lot of APM as long as you're using it, ie constantly cycling through your stuff, etc etc. Its good to be able to multitask like a boss
thats not true. If you force yourself to play faster, for a few days it will hurt your gameplay but once you get used to it, it won't affect you anymore. You will make silly mistakes for a few days by moving faster then you are used to but its worth it imo in the long run. Good multi tasking and being able to do it requires pretty good apm.
Its why sjow kind of fails when there is lots of multi tasking and gets kinda rolled sometimes. I have seen games where he's doing a hellion attack with drop ship for covor on the top while dropping marines and loses the drop ship + marines but leaves his hellions there and he lost 3 of the 4 hellions by queens on the high ground then the lings killed the last one. Didn't move an inch.
I don't think you can play effectively against an opponent who will use your weak multi tasking against you with only 100 apm. I think you need probably 150 minimum.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
utter...........BS
even the worst Muta Micro in the world take more than 140-150 real APM. what more a C Zerg.
On June 26 2011 21:19 funk100 wrote: [quote] 130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
rep and iccup id? i call bs
It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it?
Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
I went C- first season, 2nd C+, 3rd B-. I was very map specific with my builds (read: abusive), but it's certainly doable.
And about Kolll, I heard he reached B- during his first season. Day9 said it during some daily aswell I believe.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently.
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers?
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible).
Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks).
A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management.
As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions.
I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something.
I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ...
I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here).
You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
utter...........BS
even the worst Muta Micro in the world take more than 140-150 real APM. what more a C Zerg.
he might be bullshitting but getting C with 150 apm is nothing special. And you can do good muta micro with it. Get your head out or your ass
On June 27 2011 07:21 mcleod wrote: i wonder at what point does spamming actually hurt your overall play its obvious u dont need ridiculously high apm to play SC2 and overall i think playing at a more reasonable pace, maybe 200-250 apm will do you better than trying to play at 350-450
I think if you "force" yourself to play faster. It will hurt your gameplay imo. But if it comes naturally, and its just second nature to play that fast then it would be fine. Though I think it doesn't hurt to have a lot of APM as long as you're using it, ie constantly cycling through your stuff, etc etc. Its good to be able to multitask like a boss
thats not true. If you force yourself to play faster, for a few days it will hurt your gameplay but once you get used to it, it won't affect you anymore. You will make silly mistakes for a few days by moving faster then you are used to but its worth it imo in the long run. Good multi tasking and being able to do it requires pretty good apm.
Its why sjow kind of fails when there is lots of multi tasking and gets kinda rolled sometimes. I have seen games where he's doing a hellion attack with drop ship for covor on the top while dropping marines and loses the drop ship + marines but leaves his hellions there and he lost 3 of the 4 hellions by queens on the high ground then the lings killed the last one. Didn't move an inch.
I don't think you can play effectively against an opponent who will use your weak multi tasking against you with only 100 apm. I think you need probably 150 minimum.
Well yea, once it turns from being Forced to natural it won't hurt your gameplay anymore.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
That is more than enough actions to do everything you need at a high level. If no one spammed a single action (silly, i know), no one would ever need more than 100 apm.
On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote: Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though .
That is more than enough actions to do everything you need at a high level. If no one spammed a single action (silly, i know), no one would ever need more than 100 apm.
Nobody needs more than 100 apm if they are doing pure macro. On the other hand, If you want to maintain map awareness, harass, and micro, you're going to need much more than 100 apm.
On June 27 2011 04:43 Xapti wrote: I thought Idra had very high APM (relative to other pros, such as making top 15 or so), but I guess not. I suppose it's just somewhat high. Perhaps his low-aggression (macro) style makes it so that it's not as possible to get high apm without spamming more.
There'a a huge difference between APM and actual useful actions per minute. I love watching Idra's stream because he is extremely precise with everything he does mechanically. eg. he clicks (not drawing a box) on an overlord and sends it to where he wants it with just one additional click and the overlord goes where it has to be. A lot of "high APM" players just spam the location where it should go so they have higher APM but not done anything more worthwhile - maybe even wasted time keeping the screen at the location they spam. I've even heard some pro (dont know anymore which one) saying that he wants to lower his APM to be more efficient and precise.
EDIT: Clearly if you can maintain your win rate, the lower the apm the better. Learning bad spam habits, over microing, wasting time, energy and resources,
How so? I can agree to the dangers of carpel tunnel etc. but what's your definiton of bad spam? Over microing because you want high APM is retarded, how do you waste time when you use time more effectively and you can eat an energy bar.
I only do things that help me, a little APM spam in the beginning helps me focus rather then hitting S every so often and drifting. Tapping is important, it helps macro significantly. Micro you do what you need to do, it's always been about motion and speed just follows.
On June 26 2011 22:28 K_Dilkington wrote: Doesn't seem that you need more than 100~ apm tbh.
Not as Terran or Protoss, indeed. Like TLO said when he switched to zerg a while ago: "Even with 600 APM I feel like always having something to do as Zerg" Qft.
A really quick and inaccurate comparison to some of their BW APMs:
TT1 - Seems to have increased his APM a ton (ie. 180 -> 340)? July - Slightly lower APM in SC2. Sen - Approximately the same APM. WhiteRa - Slightly lower APM in SC2 (~50).
Naturally this becomes an argument over whether or not high APM is necessary. People talk about high APM and spamming resulting in misclicks and mistakes but that simply doesn't happen at the highest level (which obviously hasn't been reached yet considering pros like MMA still make dumb mistakes like killing his own CC). Obviously BW was more APM intensive but still you don't see the top players with 400+ APM screwing many things up. It all becomes muscle memory.
As the skill level rises so will the APM needed to keep up with the rest. Right now you can get away with just having good decision making and such, but that won't last forever. There are a huge number of micro tricks that even top Koreans fail to do that would give them an edge.
In both BW and SC2 there are players with low apm and high apm. Stork is still a top level progamer, and has a winning record against the rest of the TBLS and only has 230-ish APM. Then on the other hand you have Bisu with 400-ish APM who a while ago racked up 3 All-Kills in a row and pretty sure continues to break his proleague win record.
Pro-gamers with low apm make up for it with superior game-sense, strategy, tactics.
Pro-gamers with bad game-sense, strategy, tactics, make up for it with high apm/multitask.
In order to be the best, the sum of all skills have to be above the sum of everyone elses skills.
You have to be an einstein to beat the best players with just strategy, and low apm.
You have to have divine hands to beat the best players with low strategy, and just apm.
Its not whether one is more important than the other, in general the sum has to be greater than the sum of your opponent. You can abuse your high apm to throw off low apm players (e.g Bisu / MMA), you can use great starsense to throw off high apm players (e.g Flash / Sjow).
Neurologists even analysed Flash's brain, and showed his brain activity was far different from the norm. But Flash has pretty good apm, even though his multitask may not be as good (nearly all his apm is spent on perfect macro). So basically he is able to make up for his "lackluster" mechanics, by having a brain akin to a god.
Then on the opposite end of the scale you have Bisu who is amazing at multitask, can do 5 prong harass, and makes certain that his first zealot kills 6 lings while his corsairs kill 50 overlords, while 1 dt has already single handedly killed a spire and 20 drones, while in soviet russia zealots counter hydras, with perfect BW macro. You think MMA is good, Bisu is basically MMA x1 million. There was a veteran commentator who mentioned being left speechless after watching Bisu play for the first time. When I say the other end of the scale though, I mean Bisu plays PvT like a bone-headed macro machine.
If you get a freakish combination of both, you get Jaedong.
Hence why to be a REALLY great player you need the sum of those parts to be high, its not whether one is more important than the other, although you can make up for it by being a total FREAK at one aspect of the game.
Anyway thanks for the results, they were really interesting.
On June 27 2011 13:02 CraShed-Ice wrote: Maintaining 300+ apm for like whole tournament, thats just INSANE. I have no idea how that is even humanly possible lol
whenever i play in local tournaments or mlgs i usually play 20 to 50 apm faster then my average simply because how nervous and excited i get
On June 26 2011 21:20 MrCeeJ wrote: I love how the 'press F2 to check my expo site still exists for the 5th time' action is given the exact same weighting as the 'building a robo to counter the DT rush I am preparing for based of scouting a second early gass' action.
In short once you can think fast enough to get what you need to do figured out, and click fast enough to do it it is all about the quality of the actions and not the quantity.
EDIT: Clearly if you can maintain your win rate, the lower the apm the better. Learning bad spam habits, over microing, wasting time, energy and resources, developing CTS/RSI or worse.
As someone who had CTS/RSI and are now cured. Don't spread that bullshit, you dont get it from using computers - which is good news.
As someone who developed RSI/CTS from working at a newspaper due to the amount of high-speed typing involved, and still suffering years later, I'd disagree. Don't spread bullshit yourself.
On June 26 2011 21:20 MrCeeJ wrote: I love how the 'press F2 to check my expo site still exists for the 5th time' action is given the exact same weighting as the 'building a robo to counter the DT rush I am preparing for based of scouting a second early gass' action.
In short once you can think fast enough to get what you need to do figured out, and click fast enough to do it it is all about the quality of the actions and not the quantity.
EDIT: Clearly if you can maintain your win rate, the lower the apm the better. Learning bad spam habits, over microing, wasting time, energy and resources, developing CTS/RSI or worse.
As someone who had CTS/RSI and are now cured. Don't spread that bullshit, you dont get it from using computers - which is good news.
As someone who developed RSI/CTS from working at a newspaper due to the amount of high-speed typing involved, and still suffering years later, I'd disagree. Don't spread bullshit yourself.
I know right, i retired and became a manager because of CTS >.>
EPT
.
