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On June 26 2011 21:17 Ryka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote:Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though  . How is it sad? APM is meaningless, this has been known for a long time. I think it's a very very good thing that intelligence/decision making/timing/positioning etc are vastly more important than raw hand speed.
Not meaningless.
However, it is true that it is not the sole indicator of gameplay performance and skill. But, as opposed to your very extreme position, I believe that APM is incredibly important depending on the race as different races require different amounts of APM and more multi-tasking can be performed in game. Mechanics are almost as important as strategy. That's why StarCraft is a Real-Time strategy game.
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I think that this just proves that people with 100+apm could be much better if they used their actions for useful things rather than spam, given that some pros have low apm and are still very boss.
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United States15275 Posts
On June 27 2011 05:56 Meteora.GB wrote:
According to the Liquipedia sAviOr had relatively low APM by progamer standards and still he's one of the bonjwas in Brood War, so APM is meaningless.
And that's exactly why Savior stopped being a bonjwa, so APM is extremely relevant when we talk about multitasking.
Low APM is bad simply because it is easily exploitable by players with good multitasking and high APM. I can't tell you how many games I've seen Axslav and Goody get dismantled by simple two-pronged attacks or unexpected drops. The series between Axslav and Major at MLG was particularly painful to watch.
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On June 27 2011 06:05 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 02:15 lyAsakura wrote:On June 27 2011 02:12 ganil wrote:On June 27 2011 01:57 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:40 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:37 Caladbolg wrote:On June 26 2011 21:24 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:On June 26 2011 21:19 funk100 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote:Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though . 130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently. Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful. For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers? I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250. But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible). Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks). A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management. As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions. I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something. I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ... I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here). You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot. rep and iccup id? i call bs It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it?
Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
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July needs to get back to 818
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This really means next to nothing about skill, but it is a bit interesting. With BW it meant MUCH more
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On June 27 2011 06:56 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 06:05 PJA wrote:On June 27 2011 02:15 lyAsakura wrote:On June 27 2011 02:12 ganil wrote:On June 27 2011 01:57 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:40 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:37 Caladbolg wrote:On June 26 2011 21:24 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:On June 26 2011 21:19 funk100 wrote:
[quote]
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently. Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful. For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers? I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250. But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible). Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks). A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management. As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions. I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something. I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ... I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here). You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot. rep and iccup id? i call bs It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it? Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
Ya im 99% sure hes Bullshitting too. And really it doesnt add to the OP much at all. Dont know how this got into BW
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On June 27 2011 07:04 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 06:56 arb wrote:On June 27 2011 06:05 PJA wrote:On June 27 2011 02:15 lyAsakura wrote:On June 27 2011 02:12 ganil wrote:On June 27 2011 01:57 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:40 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:37 Caladbolg wrote:On June 26 2011 21:24 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:
[quote]
Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful.
For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers? I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250. But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible). Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks). A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management. As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions. I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something. I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ... I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here). You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot. rep and iccup id? i call bs It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it? Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit. Ya im 99% sure hes Bullshitting too. And really it doesnt add to the OP much at all. Dont know how this got into BW
didn't kroll get A- in like 2 seasons or something? it seems pretty unlikely but after the kroll thread i don't completely dismiss it. I played like 5 seasons and only ever got to C- =/ that was after like 2 years of playing fastest lol.
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wow 470 is so much, though honestly in this game you only need like 180, hell theres some really good players with less than that, this game isnt as hard as BW. Even wc3 recured more apm imo, though wc3 apm requirement went up and down (in battle out of battle)
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APM is not an indicator of skill. I've said it a million times. Get over it, guys.
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On June 27 2011 07:08 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 07:04 Halcyondaze wrote:On June 27 2011 06:56 arb wrote:On June 27 2011 06:05 PJA wrote:On June 27 2011 02:15 lyAsakura wrote:On June 27 2011 02:12 ganil wrote:On June 27 2011 01:57 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:40 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:37 Caladbolg wrote:On June 26 2011 21:24 Megaliskuu wrote:
[quote]
I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250.
But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible). Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks). A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management. As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions. I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something. I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ... I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here). You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot. rep and iccup id? i call bs It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it? Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit. Ya im 99% sure hes Bullshitting too. And really it doesnt add to the OP much at all. Dont know how this got into BW didn't kroll get A- in like 2 seasons or something? it seems pretty unlikely but after the kroll thread i don't completely dismiss it. I played like 5 seasons and only ever got to C- =/ that was after like 2 years of playing fastest lol.
A year actually.
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On June 27 2011 06:45 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 05:56 Meteora.GB wrote:
According to the Liquipedia sAviOr had relatively low APM by progamer standards and still he's one of the bonjwas in Brood War, so APM is meaningless. And that's exactly why Savior stopped being a bonjwa, so APM is extremely relevant when we talk about multitasking. Low APM is bad simply because it is easily exploitable by players with good multitasking and high APM. I can't tell you how many games I've seen Axslav and Goody get dismantled by simple two-pronged attacks or unexpected drops. The series between Axslav and Major at MLG was particularly painful to watch.
Yep this. July picking apart Sjow too. As more and more top players play like that, people with low APM won't survive. They already couldn't in Korea imo.
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The most interesting thing to me with this is how extremely incorrect blizzards apm is. Atleast when you get over 100apm or so. Also why does the average apm drop with maybe 10-20 when the game ends even if you spam with 500apm or whatever, it still mysteriously drops.
I have around 200real apm (270 in an intense game with little techchange for a long time and 140 in stalemates) and I feel that my apm is to low when it comes to some micro stuff, especially speedlings but also burrowmicro takes way over 200 if you want units to be build while playing. Of course in bw it was even worse when you tried to juggle 36slings while building them out of 2-3hatches and adding new ones while the old died.
Another (maybe completely irrelevant but hopefully interesting) thing I noticed was that in BW FrozenArbiter had higher apm than me in probably 90% of our games. Recently we played 10games and I had higher than him 9-1. Okay in bw we both usually offraced (or well I played random but when I got Z I messed around) and now I played my main race all games and he offraced but still interesting. I have no idea what conclusions we could draw from this. Probably none but it is still an extreme difference in casual game apm and our skill difference is most likely higher in sc2 than in bw since well he is a pro now.
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i wonder at what point does spamming actually hurt your overall play
its obvious u dont need ridiculously high apm to play SC2 and overall i think playing at a more reasonable pace, maybe 200-250 apm will do you better than trying to play at 350-450
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On June 27 2011 07:21 mcleod wrote:
i wonder at what point does spamming actually hurt your overall play
its obvious u dont need ridiculously high apm to play SC2 and overall i think playing at a more reasonable pace, maybe 200-250 apm will do you better than trying to play at 350-450
I think if you "force" yourself to play faster. It will hurt your gameplay imo. But if it comes naturally, and its just second nature to play that fast then it would be fine. Though I think it doesn't hurt to have a lot of APM as long as you're using it, ie constantly cycling through your stuff, etc etc. Its good to be able to multitask like a boss
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On June 27 2011 07:25 Gao Xi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 07:21 mcleod wrote:
i wonder at what point does spamming actually hurt your overall play
its obvious u dont need ridiculously high apm to play SC2 and overall i think playing at a more reasonable pace, maybe 200-250 apm will do you better than trying to play at 350-450 I think if you "force" yourself to play faster. It will hurt your gameplay imo. But if it comes naturally, and its just second nature to play that fast then it would be fine. Though I think it doesn't hurt to have a lot of APM as long as you're using it, ie constantly cycling through your stuff, etc etc. Its good to be able to multitask like a boss
thats not true. If you force yourself to play faster, for a few days it will hurt your gameplay but once you get used to it, it won't affect you anymore. You will make silly mistakes for a few days by moving faster then you are used to but its worth it imo in the long run. Good multi tasking and being able to do it requires pretty good apm.
Its why sjow kind of fails when there is lots of multi tasking and gets kinda rolled sometimes. I have seen games where he's doing a hellion attack with drop ship for covor on the top while dropping marines and loses the drop ship + marines but leaves his hellions there and he lost 3 of the 4 hellions by queens on the high ground then the lings killed the last one. Didn't move an inch.
I don't think you can play effectively against an opponent who will use your weak multi tasking against you with only 100 apm. I think you need probably 150 minimum.
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so thats why Goody play mech.
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On June 27 2011 02:12 ganil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 01:57 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:40 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:37 Caladbolg wrote:On June 26 2011 21:24 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:On June 26 2011 21:19 funk100 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote:Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though . 130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently. Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful. For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers? I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250. But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible). Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks). A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management. As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions. I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something. I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ... I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here). You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot.
utter...........BS
even the worst Muta Micro in the world take more than 140-150 real APM. what more a C Zerg.
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On June 27 2011 06:56 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 06:05 PJA wrote:On June 27 2011 02:15 lyAsakura wrote:On June 27 2011 02:12 ganil wrote:On June 27 2011 01:57 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:40 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:37 Caladbolg wrote:On June 26 2011 21:24 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:On June 26 2011 21:19 funk100 wrote:
[quote]
130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently. Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful. For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers? I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250. But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible). Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks). A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management. As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions. I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something. I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ... I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here). You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot. rep and iccup id? i call bs It's not that hard to be a C zerg with 150 APM, why would you call BS on it? Because getting C in 2 seasons on Iccup with no BW experience is bullshit.
I went C- first season, 2nd C+, 3rd B-. I was very map specific with my builds (read: abusive), but it's certainly doable.
And about Kolll, I heard he reached B- during his first season. Day9 said it during some daily aswell I believe.
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On June 27 2011 08:50 quest_5692 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 02:12 ganil wrote:On June 27 2011 01:57 obesechicken13 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:40 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:37 Caladbolg wrote:On June 26 2011 21:24 Megaliskuu wrote:On June 26 2011 21:22 Yaotzin wrote:On June 26 2011 21:19 funk100 wrote:On June 26 2011 21:15 Megaliskuu wrote:Its kinda sad that people can be top players with 130 apm though . 130 APM is enough to do all you need to do in Sc2 if you use it efficiently. Well, for now. I think it's gradually changing though. Can you keep up with MMA's multitasking with 130apm? Doubtful. For comparison's sake, is there a similar list for BW progamers? I've put alot of reps into bwrepinfo before, and it seems a good average is around 400-425, with EAPM of around 220-250. But then there are guys like stork who are slow, and guys like hero who are ridiculously fast (but still do terrible). Hyuk is another high apm guy with arguably more success than hero. Seen him get 500+ average in a game (peaking at high 600s). Zerg seems to require the highest apm as well, similar to how I perceive the average to be in SC2 (although admittedly, it seems that Protoss and Terran do benefit more due to their micro tricks). A large chunk of BW apm was for macro and rally resetting (other large components were multitask and micro tricks). I wonder where merz's 470 goes to? Watching the FPVOD of someone like Select or Huk, the APM seems to go to multitask and micro. On the other hand, someone like Major or Idra seem to put more time in base management. As a Zerg BW player, alot of apm comes from going 1click 2click 3click 4click 5click 6click 7click 8click 9click to move your army around the map, I was a shit C/low C+ player but I averaged 340-360 apm just because moving mass ling armies added lots of actions. I have to agree, the reason why the APMs are so low compared to BW, is just that macro and micro has gotten so much easier and faster. It takes maybe half the time to perform the actions required, but only a quarter of the actions to do something. I played on iccup less than 2 seasons with no prior SCBW experience. I suck at rts game. I'm slow as hell I play super safe and standard. ... I got C with sthg like 140~150 apm average (3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra vs P and 2 hatch muta 3 hatch hive vT, ZvZ is weird so I had no real planned build here). You don't need a high apm to do basics builds and win a lot. utter...........BS even the worst Muta Micro in the world take more than 140-150 real APM. what more a C Zerg.
he might be bullshitting but getting C with 150 apm is nothing special. And you can do good muta micro with it. Get your head out or your ass
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EPT
