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On June 12 2011 21:45 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:38 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:35 stevarius wrote:On June 12 2011 21:33 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 TheSubtleArt wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 Osmoses wrote:This is terribly relevant: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-BadlyI get really annoyed when random people on the internet is saying how Blizzard does not know how to make a game. Do you, random idiot, do you know? If you were in charge, everything would turn out perfectly, wouldn't it?That being said, of course Blizzard are not perfect. I also happen to think the Colossus is the most boring unit of SC2. I think overseers dropping infested terrans was the best idea ever, and instead of balancing it (or leaving it the fuck alone for a long enough period of time to let players adapt) they just removed it. The immortal, I don't mind, I think the danger it poses and the need to single it out, therefore forcing the opposite player to micro it away, is fun. But as far as I'm concerned, the protoss meathshield is the zealot, and the immortal would be just as fun without the hardened shield, because doing high damage against armored is it's role. Anyway. Dustin Browder is not Blizzard. I'm sure there are just as many people on his team slapping their foreheads at what he says in interviews as there are in the community. Per capita of course. Regarding the bolded part, it's a stupid statement because we don't have the same training and expertise a developer does. You have to look at evertything relatively. Are blizzard developers better than random joe on teamliquid? No shit. The question you have to ask is are blizzard developers better than other developers? Better than Brood War's developers? Because the fact that they can make a game better than me means nothing considering I know nothing about making games So when you say SC2 developers don't know what they're doing, exactly what are you proposing they do? Go dig up the old BW developer team and put them all in charge? That's fucking brilliant. Maybe shift the game to be loss volatile. Encourage more use of mechanical play. That's where the real fun and entertainment value is at IMO, whether competitively as a spectator or just laddering for fun. Key words here are "IMO". You feel you know better than them, and so do I sometimes, but neither of us have the experience or the expertise to know what makes a great game. It's a science, but the fans always seem so convinced they'd do a better job. I never claimed to have the ability to do what I believed the direction of the game should go, but they do. I don't like the way SC2 consists of a lot of 1a2a3a into your opponent with one massive army. There just seems to be too little emphasis on strategic play. This could be a result of the lack of time that there has been to develop better play, but it almost seems like the game rewards people too much for, arguably, not very much work.
People continue to say stuff like this yet i feel like i've watched alot of great matches recently.
Losira vs MMA at MLG, Line vs Top at GSL etc. Those matches showed alot of strategy/micro and entertainment.
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Sen & Interviewers:
a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design?
Dustin Browder:
no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol)
Sen & Interviewers:
but the rush are stronger than BW
Dustin Browder:
we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same.
Never understood that first question, i just presumed it was a miss translation presume they meant timing pushes.
Rushes aren't very strong (6pool terrible never wins, 2gate moderately strong but not to hard to deal with, 2rax + bunkers moderately hard but defend able only one there which may be a slight problem is 2rax but only because zergs don't want to get the early lings. Not sure about fast marauder vs P but I'd imagine zealot sentry kills it fairly easy)
On June 12 2011 14:37 Daiki wrote:
i gave up on dustin when he stated that sc2 is more micro intensive than bw. Imo, he also ruined command and conquer generals.
I think it was day9 who said game has potential to be more micro intensive than broodwar just players need to develop better skills.
On June 12 2011 14:58 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:51 Halcyondaze wrote:
Blizzard interacts with its customers more than any gaming company bar none. It is not even close. Well 1. That's not true 2. Communication does not have a lot to do with how many interviews you do and how much interaction you have. When someone has good communication skills, it doesn't mean they talk to a lot of people. It means they have the ability to understand, comprehend and respond in a way that is relevant. Unfortunately the latter is not really happening. Although Blizzard is listening, there seems to be many inherent problems in the way they listen and respond. For example the Phoenix change when it came to moving shot, and the way Dustin Browder responds to a lot of questions, and slag pits.
Which similar sized company communicates to their fan base more or as much as blizzard?
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On June 12 2011 21:42 TheSubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:38 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:36 TheSubtleArt wrote:On June 12 2011 21:33 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 TheSubtleArt wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 Osmoses wrote:This is terribly relevant: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-BadlyI get really annoyed when random people on the internet is saying how Blizzard does not know how to make a game. Do you, random idiot, do you know? If you were in charge, everything would turn out perfectly, wouldn't it?That being said, of course Blizzard are not perfect. I also happen to think the Colossus is the most boring unit of SC2. I think overseers dropping infested terrans was the best idea ever, and instead of balancing it (or leaving it the fuck alone for a long enough period of time to let players adapt) they just removed it. The immortal, I don't mind, I think the danger it poses and the need to single it out, therefore forcing the opposite player to micro it away, is fun. But as far as I'm concerned, the protoss meathshield is the zealot, and the immortal would be just as fun without the hardened shield, because doing high damage against armored is it's role. Anyway. Dustin Browder is not Blizzard. I'm sure there are just as many people on his team slapping their foreheads at what he says in interviews as there are in the community. Per capita of course. Regarding the bolded part, it's a stupid statement because we don't have the same training and expertise a developer does. You have to look at evertything relatively. Are blizzard developers better than random joe on teamliquid? No shit. The question you have to ask is are blizzard developers better than other developers? Better than Brood War's developers? Because the fact that they can make a game better than me means nothing considering I know nothing about making games So when you say SC2 developers don't know what they're doing, exactly what are you proposing they do? Go dig up the old BW developer team and put them all in charge? That's fucking brilliant. I never said that, I just said your "don't insult Sc2 developers because you can't do any better" line of thinking is stupid. That's your solution then? Insult the developers? What? I wasn't insulting the developers, just saying your line of thinking is stupid.
OK then I must be completely misinterpreting what you are saying. In my mind, you can't tell someone else they don't know what they're doing without knowing better yourself. You see, because you'd need to be qualified to make that assessment.
In my mind, SC2 is a pretty great game. I played BW for a long time, and while I still think BW is superior, I think SC2 has the potential to become greater. SC2 is a year old, and it has decent balance. We are expecting two more expansions.
In my mind, the absolute worst move a game company can make is listen to the community too much. Because most of the community, much like the average voter, is retarded, and don't know what they want.
Yes, goddamnit, the same thing goes for me. Show some humility once in a while, it's good for you.
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On June 12 2011 21:48 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:45 stevarius wrote:On June 12 2011 21:38 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:35 stevarius wrote:On June 12 2011 21:33 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 TheSubtleArt wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 Osmoses wrote:This is terribly relevant: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-BadlyI get really annoyed when random people on the internet is saying how Blizzard does not know how to make a game. Do you, random idiot, do you know? If you were in charge, everything would turn out perfectly, wouldn't it?That being said, of course Blizzard are not perfect. I also happen to think the Colossus is the most boring unit of SC2. I think overseers dropping infested terrans was the best idea ever, and instead of balancing it (or leaving it the fuck alone for a long enough period of time to let players adapt) they just removed it. The immortal, I don't mind, I think the danger it poses and the need to single it out, therefore forcing the opposite player to micro it away, is fun. But as far as I'm concerned, the protoss meathshield is the zealot, and the immortal would be just as fun without the hardened shield, because doing high damage against armored is it's role. Anyway. Dustin Browder is not Blizzard. I'm sure there are just as many people on his team slapping their foreheads at what he says in interviews as there are in the community. Per capita of course. Regarding the bolded part, it's a stupid statement because we don't have the same training and expertise a developer does. You have to look at evertything relatively. Are blizzard developers better than random joe on teamliquid? No shit. The question you have to ask is are blizzard developers better than other developers? Better than Brood War's developers? Because the fact that they can make a game better than me means nothing considering I know nothing about making games So when you say SC2 developers don't know what they're doing, exactly what are you proposing they do? Go dig up the old BW developer team and put them all in charge? That's fucking brilliant. Maybe shift the game to be loss volatile. Encourage more use of mechanical play. That's where the real fun and entertainment value is at IMO, whether competitively as a spectator or just laddering for fun. Key words here are "IMO". You feel you know better than them, and so do I sometimes, but neither of us have the experience or the expertise to know what makes a great game. It's a science, but the fans always seem so convinced they'd do a better job. I never claimed to have the ability to do what I believed the direction of the game should go, but they do. I don't like the way SC2 consists of a lot of 1a2a3a into your opponent with one massive army. There just seems to be too little emphasis on strategic play. This could be a result of the lack of time that there has been to develop better play, but it almost seems like the game rewards people too much for, arguably, not very much work. People continue to say stuff like this yet i feel like i've watched alot of great matches recently. Losira vs MMA at MLG, Line vs Top at GSL etc. Those matches showed alot of strategy/micro and entertainment.
I'm not trying to diminish the talent these players have. The games are exciting, but these exciting games are too few. I even want to put part of the blame on us, the players. Our work ethic pales in comparison to these elite players and stifles innovation and high level play that excites spectators.
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On June 12 2011 21:48 monkh wrote:Show nested quote +
Sen & Interviewers:
a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design?
Dustin Browder:
no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol)
Sen & Interviewers:
but the rush are stronger than BW
Dustin Browder:
we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same.
Never understood that first question, i just presumed it was a miss translation presume they meant timing pushes. Rushes aren't very strong (6pool terrible never wins, 2gate moderately strong but not to hard to deal with, 2rax + bunkers moderately hard but defend able only one there which may be a slight problem is 2rax but only because zergs don't want to get the early lings. Not sure about fast marauder vs P but I'd imagine zealot sentry kills it fairly easy) Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:37 Daiki wrote:
i gave up on dustin when he stated that sc2 is more micro intensive than bw. Imo, he also ruined command and conquer generals. I think it was day9 who said game has potential to be more micro intensive than broodwar just players need to develop better skills. Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:58 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 12 2011 14:51 Halcyondaze wrote:
Blizzard interacts with its customers more than any gaming company bar none. It is not even close. Well 1. That's not true 2. Communication does not have a lot to do with how many interviews you do and how much interaction you have. When someone has good communication skills, it doesn't mean they talk to a lot of people. It means they have the ability to understand, comprehend and respond in a way that is relevant. Unfortunately the latter is not really happening. Although Blizzard is listening, there seems to be many inherent problems in the way they listen and respond. For example the Phoenix change when it came to moving shot, and the way Dustin Browder responds to a lot of questions, and slag pits. Which similar sized company communicates to their fan base more or as much as blizzard?
I watched the last Blizzcon and no other developers seem that open with what they want, how they want to change things and being blunt and saying that they don't know if they really don't.
I guess some will never be pleased.
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oh, it's a troll..
someone point him in the direction of the official whine forums.
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Look at all the differing opinions in this thread about the game, balance, individual units. Keeping in mind that this particular forum is only a small part of the SC2 community, how exactly can you say that Blizz is out of touch? There are hundreds of differing opinions, even pros and analysts argue a lot (balance talk on SotG?). It isn't like a vast majority of the SC2 community is begging for things that Blizz is ignoring. The SC2 community doesn't have a consensus about anything; even the TL forum (again, only a small part of SC2) can't reach an agreement about almost anything.
How you can blame a company that's made a game that's given us this many amazing tournaments in less than a year for not being in touch with millions of customers with different opinions is beyond me.
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On June 12 2011 21:48 monkh wrote:Show nested quote +
Sen & Interviewers:
a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design?
Dustin Browder:
no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol)
Sen & Interviewers:
but the rush are stronger than BW
Dustin Browder:
we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same.
Never understood that first question, i just presumed it was a miss translation presume they meant timing pushes. Rushes aren't very strong (6pool terrible never wins, 2gate moderately strong but not to hard to deal with, 2rax + bunkers moderately hard but defend able only one there which may be a slight problem is 2rax but only because zergs don't want to get the early lings. Not sure about fast marauder vs P but I'd imagine zealot sentry kills it fairly easy) Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:37 Daiki wrote:
i gave up on dustin when he stated that sc2 is more micro intensive than bw. Imo, he also ruined command and conquer generals. I think it was day9 who said game has potential to be more micro intensive than broodwar just players need to develop better skills. Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:58 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 12 2011 14:51 Halcyondaze wrote:
Blizzard interacts with its customers more than any gaming company bar none. It is not even close. Well 1. That's not true 2. Communication does not have a lot to do with how many interviews you do and how much interaction you have. When someone has good communication skills, it doesn't mean they talk to a lot of people. It means they have the ability to understand, comprehend and respond in a way that is relevant. Unfortunately the latter is not really happening. Although Blizzard is listening, there seems to be many inherent problems in the way they listen and respond. For example the Phoenix change when it came to moving shot, and the way Dustin Browder responds to a lot of questions, and slag pits. Which similar sized company communicates to their fan base more or as much as blizzard?
I hate arguing on these threads but I just want to say that you are completely wrong about all of your points.
Rushing isn't punished as severely as it was in BW. Comparing 6 pool and 2 gate as the rush standards are ridiculous because those are extremes and nobody even does them anyway. If you did a 3 gate all-in like you did in BW you could not expand off of that, you would simply lose if you didn't do enough damage.
Just because Day[9] says it might be potential to have more micro than BW, that means hardly anything I'm sorry. With smartcasting and the current units SC2 has they will never come close to BW micro. Smartcasting makes micro 10X easier. Compare the use of storm in SC1 vs SC2...that's as simple as it gets. In SC1 manually select each templar and cast storm...in SC2 press 1 hotkey and spam TTTT. Having all your units on 1-3 hotkeys max as opposed to having them on 5-6 hotkeys is also 10X easier. Have you ever controlled lurker/ling/defiler/scourge? What about marine/medic/tank/vessel? Corsair/shuttle/reaver? They are so difficult to control it's hard to even describe. Try it out yourself and get good with it to see what I mean.
Edit:
For reference I love SC2...I just hate misinformed/ignorant opinions like yours, sorry to say.
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On June 12 2011 22:01 dormer wrote:
How you can blame a company that's made a game that's given us this many amazing tournaments in less than a year for not being in touch with millions of customers with different opinions is beyond me.
Game is good, but it could have been much better. Especially for high level of play, for pros, grandmasters, etc. Skill ceiling between good player and excellent player isn't that big. Good player can still easily win a game vs. a better player. And one of the reasons is that because of a-move units like collossus, marauders, etc, which does not require much skill. I think most of community agrees that boring units should be changed.
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This shows Blizzard is 'out of touch'? I fail to see how what Browder said isn't basically correct. Most pros these days seem to agree the game is fairly balanced right now (even Artosis!), and while rushes are certainly stronger, it is a different game, and these rushes are not for the most part game-breaking. And the fact that they don't mention the same unit off-the-top-of-their-heads as an example of a boring unit as an anonymous poll on TL proves they're "out of touch" with the community? Really?
So what's the problem, exactly?
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On June 12 2011 22:04 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:48 monkh wrote:
Sen & Interviewers:
a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design?
Dustin Browder:
no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol)
Sen & Interviewers:
but the rush are stronger than BW
Dustin Browder:
we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same.
Never understood that first question, i just presumed it was a miss translation presume they meant timing pushes. Rushes aren't very strong (6pool terrible never wins, 2gate moderately strong but not to hard to deal with, 2rax + bunkers moderately hard but defend able only one there which may be a slight problem is 2rax but only because zergs don't want to get the early lings. Not sure about fast marauder vs P but I'd imagine zealot sentry kills it fairly easy) On June 12 2011 14:37 Daiki wrote:
i gave up on dustin when he stated that sc2 is more micro intensive than bw. Imo, he also ruined command and conquer generals. I think it was day9 who said game has potential to be more micro intensive than broodwar just players need to develop better skills. On June 12 2011 14:58 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 12 2011 14:51 Halcyondaze wrote:
Blizzard interacts with its customers more than any gaming company bar none. It is not even close. Well 1. That's not true 2. Communication does not have a lot to do with how many interviews you do and how much interaction you have. When someone has good communication skills, it doesn't mean they talk to a lot of people. It means they have the ability to understand, comprehend and respond in a way that is relevant. Unfortunately the latter is not really happening. Although Blizzard is listening, there seems to be many inherent problems in the way they listen and respond. For example the Phoenix change when it came to moving shot, and the way Dustin Browder responds to a lot of questions, and slag pits. Which similar sized company communicates to their fan base more or as much as blizzard? I hate arguing on these threads but I just want to say that you are completely wrong about all of your points. Rushing isn't punished as severely as it was in BW. Comparing 6 pool and 2 gate as the rush standards are ridiculous because those are extremes and nobody even does them anyway. If you did a 3 gate all-in like you did in BW you could not expand off of that, you would simply lose if you didn't do enough damage. Just because Day[9] says it might be potential to have more micro than BW, that means hardly anything I'm sorry. With smartcasting and the current units SC2 has they will never come close to BW micro. Smartcasting makes micro 10X easier. Compare the use of storm in SC1 vs SC2...that's as simple as it gets. In SC1 manually select each templar and cast storm...in SC2 press 1 hotkey and spam TTTT. Having all your units on 1-3 hotkeys max as opposed to having them on 5-6 hotkeys is also 10X easier. Have you ever controlled lurker/ling/defiler/scourge? What about marine/medic/tank/vessel? Corsair/shuttle/reaver? They are so difficult to control it's hard to even describe. Try it out yourself and get good with it to see what I mean. Edit: For reference I love SC2...I just hate misinformed/ignorant opinions like yours, sorry to say.
So we should take your word for micro and disregard Day9's why? It's kinda weird that you just disregard what he says then list a bunch of stuff from BW as some kind of proof. We don't know what kind of micro can be achieved in SC2 yet. There's a shitload more micro in games now than 6 months ago, that's for sure.
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On June 12 2011 21:50 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:42 TheSubtleArt wrote:On June 12 2011 21:38 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:36 TheSubtleArt wrote:On June 12 2011 21:33 Osmoses wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 TheSubtleArt wrote:On June 12 2011 21:15 Osmoses wrote:This is terribly relevant: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/8857-Extra-Punctuation-Building-Sequels-BadlyI get really annoyed when random people on the internet is saying how Blizzard does not know how to make a game. Do you, random idiot, do you know? If you were in charge, everything would turn out perfectly, wouldn't it?That being said, of course Blizzard are not perfect. I also happen to think the Colossus is the most boring unit of SC2. I think overseers dropping infested terrans was the best idea ever, and instead of balancing it (or leaving it the fuck alone for a long enough period of time to let players adapt) they just removed it. The immortal, I don't mind, I think the danger it poses and the need to single it out, therefore forcing the opposite player to micro it away, is fun. But as far as I'm concerned, the protoss meathshield is the zealot, and the immortal would be just as fun without the hardened shield, because doing high damage against armored is it's role. Anyway. Dustin Browder is not Blizzard. I'm sure there are just as many people on his team slapping their foreheads at what he says in interviews as there are in the community. Per capita of course. Regarding the bolded part, it's a stupid statement because we don't have the same training and expertise a developer does. You have to look at evertything relatively. Are blizzard developers better than random joe on teamliquid? No shit. The question you have to ask is are blizzard developers better than other developers? Better than Brood War's developers? Because the fact that they can make a game better than me means nothing considering I know nothing about making games So when you say SC2 developers don't know what they're doing, exactly what are you proposing they do? Go dig up the old BW developer team and put them all in charge? That's fucking brilliant. I never said that, I just said your "don't insult Sc2 developers because you can't do any better" line of thinking is stupid. That's your solution then? Insult the developers? What? I wasn't insulting the developers, just saying your line of thinking is stupid. OK then I must be completely misinterpreting what you are saying. In my mind, you can't tell someone else they don't know what they're doing without knowing better yourself. You see, because you'd need to be qualified to make that assessment. In my mind, SC2 is a pretty great game. I played BW for a long time, and while I still think BW is superior, I think SC2 has the potential to become greater. SC2 is a year old, and it has decent balance. We are expecting two more expansions. In my mind, the absolute worst move a game company can make is listen to the community too much. Because most of the community, much like the average voter, is retarded, and don't know what they want. Yes, goddamnit, the same thing goes for me. Show some humility once in a while, it's good for you.
I understand, but I think there's a lot of people in this community that have the ability to critique this game without being a designer themselves. Don't agree with you saying you can't judge how well Blizzard has done with Sc2 beucase you're not a designer yourself.
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On June 12 2011 22:04 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
Rushing isn't punished as severely as it was in BW. Comparing 6 pool and 2 gate as the rush standards are ridiculous because those are extremes and nobody even does them anyway. If you did a 3 gate all-in like you did in BW you could not expand off of that, you would simply lose if you didn't do enough damage.
SC2 allins might be too strong, or it may just be that the game isn't discovered enough yet. Either way, they really are all-in. Can you name 3 GSL games where an allin has failed and the player went on to win anyway? It happened in the past I guess, but nowadays it's either win or gg.
Just because Day[9] says it might be potential to have more micro than BW, that means hardly anything I'm sorry. With smartcasting and the current units SC2 has they will never come close to BW micro. Smartcasting makes micro 10X easier. Compare the use of storm in SC1 vs SC2...that's as simple as it gets. In SC1 manually select each templar and cast storm...in SC2 press 1 hotkey and spam TTTT. Having all your units on 1-3 hotkeys max as opposed to having them on 5-6 hotkeys is also 10X easier. Have you ever controlled lurker/ling/defiler/scourge? What about marine/medic/tank/vessel? Corsair/shuttle/reaver? They are so difficult to control it's hard to even describe. Try it out yourself and get good with it to see what I mean.
No one is even remotely close to perfect micro though, so it doesn't matter that theoretically it's easier. There's still far, far too much stuff for any human to do. See the automaton 2000 stuff for examples. And that's just the discovered micro. Let's not forget that something like marine splitting, seen in every ZvT now, basically didn't exist before MKP!
For storm...yeah it's easier to lay storms. It's also easier for your opponent to EMP all your shit. It kinda evens out.
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On June 12 2011 22:09 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 22:01 dormer wrote:
How you can blame a company that's made a game that's given us this many amazing tournaments in less than a year for not being in touch with millions of customers with different opinions is beyond me. Game is good, but it could have been much better. Especially for high level of play, for pros, grandmasters, etc. Skill ceiling between good player and excellent player isn't that big. Good player can still easily win a game vs. a better player. And one of the reasons is that because of a-move units like collossus, marauders, etc, which does not require much skill. I think most of community agrees that boring units should be changed.
Seen this argument 100 times in threads like this. Yet i read that Idra mostly destroys people on the ladder. Koreans kicked serious ass at MLG, showing that there's a difference even between the very, very top players in the world. That should mean that the difference between a good player and a great one should be quite large.
Also "A-move" units that are weak to alot of stuff. A-move your colossus and see them die to superior Viking placement or sniped by Marauders. A-move your Marauders and watch a protoss proceed to force field half of them and then destroy them using zealots+colossus fire.
Let's quit with the hyperbole, saying a-move units etc. It's not true in high level play and it doesn't help the argument.
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Big problem in sc2 is that there is just not enough micro intensive units. And as far as I see from interviews blizzard does not even understand that (turning banshee cloak on is "micro" according to Dustin Browder, lol).
Marine splitting vs. banelings is action which may drastically change your win rate. In masters 90% of players can't even execute marine split, while players like marineking or bratok can do miracles with them. That's a very good thing for esports. Pretty much same with blink stalkers - perfectly used that can be deadly. But what more micro-intensive units you know? I can't really think of anything else, why? Because there is none. Especially for zerg. You have a roach/hydra army as zerg and you a-move into collossus ball and hope his keyboard broke and he won't cast forcefields (which negates any micro). Is this a good design?
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On June 12 2011 22:12 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 22:04 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:On June 12 2011 21:48 monkh wrote:
Sen & Interviewers:
a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design?
Dustin Browder:
no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol)
Sen & Interviewers:
but the rush are stronger than BW
Dustin Browder:
we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same.
Never understood that first question, i just presumed it was a miss translation presume they meant timing pushes. Rushes aren't very strong (6pool terrible never wins, 2gate moderately strong but not to hard to deal with, 2rax + bunkers moderately hard but defend able only one there which may be a slight problem is 2rax but only because zergs don't want to get the early lings. Not sure about fast marauder vs P but I'd imagine zealot sentry kills it fairly easy) On June 12 2011 14:37 Daiki wrote:
i gave up on dustin when he stated that sc2 is more micro intensive than bw. Imo, he also ruined command and conquer generals. I think it was day9 who said game has potential to be more micro intensive than broodwar just players need to develop better skills. On June 12 2011 14:58 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 12 2011 14:51 Halcyondaze wrote:
Blizzard interacts with its customers more than any gaming company bar none. It is not even close. Well 1. That's not true 2. Communication does not have a lot to do with how many interviews you do and how much interaction you have. When someone has good communication skills, it doesn't mean they talk to a lot of people. It means they have the ability to understand, comprehend and respond in a way that is relevant. Unfortunately the latter is not really happening. Although Blizzard is listening, there seems to be many inherent problems in the way they listen and respond. For example the Phoenix change when it came to moving shot, and the way Dustin Browder responds to a lot of questions, and slag pits. Which similar sized company communicates to their fan base more or as much as blizzard? I hate arguing on these threads but I just want to say that you are completely wrong about all of your points. Rushing isn't punished as severely as it was in BW. Comparing 6 pool and 2 gate as the rush standards are ridiculous because those are extremes and nobody even does them anyway. If you did a 3 gate all-in like you did in BW you could not expand off of that, you would simply lose if you didn't do enough damage. Just because Day[9] says it might be potential to have more micro than BW, that means hardly anything I'm sorry. With smartcasting and the current units SC2 has they will never come close to BW micro. Smartcasting makes micro 10X easier. Compare the use of storm in SC1 vs SC2...that's as simple as it gets. In SC1 manually select each templar and cast storm...in SC2 press 1 hotkey and spam TTTT. Having all your units on 1-3 hotkeys max as opposed to having them on 5-6 hotkeys is also 10X easier. Have you ever controlled lurker/ling/defiler/scourge? What about marine/medic/tank/vessel? Corsair/shuttle/reaver? They are so difficult to control it's hard to even describe. Try it out yourself and get good with it to see what I mean. Edit: For reference I love SC2...I just hate misinformed/ignorant opinions like yours, sorry to say. So we should take your word for micro and disregard Day9's why? It's kinda weird that you just disregard what he says then list a bunch of stuff from BW as some kind of proof. We don't know what kind of micro can be achieved in SC2 yet. There's a shitload more micro in games now than 6 months ago, that's for sure.
#1. Find the source for me where Day[9] says that SC2 micro > BW micro, or will be some day.
#2. It's basic facts. SC2 is user-friendly, Browder even said it himself. BW is not user-friendly. With the current units available...I can't see any micro being at a HIGHER level than BW. I can see it being high for sure....not higher though. I like hearing about positive statements for SC2's future...I absolutely cannot bear reading statements by people who obviously have never played BW at a competitive level trying to bring down BW. SC2 will be better for sure...but why bring BW into the picture? BW deserves a little more respect on these forums.
Btw if you would like to continue to refute my points, please provide your BW history. Basically if you played PGT/iccup and what was the highest rank you achieved. For me I was a C- zerg on the brink of C at my peak in about 2008/9 or so. The reason I say this is because it's useless to argue with somebody who is comparing the 2 games when he/she clearly hasn't even played it at a competitive level.
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I think the biggest issue with this is the constant comparing to SC2 to BW, if they were meant to be the same then SC2 would have been sold/marketed as a revamp/expansion pack, which it certainly is not.
Also its talking about balance without even mentioning the metagame, Blizzard can only do so much to design and make units, yet if players use them in a totally different way well then thats nothing to do with Blizzard.
SC2 is pretty well balanced, and any issues are only minor/ metagame driven. In my opinion if someone thinks thats BW had better design and better units, well, then they can just play BW and stop moaning about SC2
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While I won't conclusively say I do think they're out of touch, based on some of the stuff they've said I would absolutely not be surprised, and it would certainly validate my frustrations.
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On June 12 2011 21:46 shizna wrote:
frankly, i'm suprised people are whining about roach, when it's clearly the hydralisk that demands attention in the zerg camp. everyone knows that if you make a single hydralisk against terran, you instantly lose the match.
On June 12 2011 21:48 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There is a lot to be done with SC2. In micro and general tactics in general. The game is evolving.
To sum it up, this thread is a massive knee jerk, a "WTF" i want to be heard cry, a shit sense of entitlement. SC2 will be doomed the day Blizz makes patches based on polls/ general consensus and other general BS coming from the community. Trying to be objective in an environment where most people are either only interested in wining easier on the ladder or in tournaments to make more money is, extremely hard. Grow up!
You're both completely correct in the statements I've quoted.
The hydralisk comment hits home to most too. Some times I get a knee jerk nostalgia reaction and try to make hydras against terran >,> never a good idea.
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lol
he literally said "if you don't like sc2 go play bw"
what the fuck kind of argument is that
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EPT
