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On June 12 2011 14:03 Jinsho wrote:
No-one needs a "true ranked order of skill", we just need some brackets for a tournament. Doing highest seed <-> lowest seed is perfectly fine.
Not when people actively don't want to be the highest seed, or when people don't care enough to try to be the highest seed.
I think for the next tournament, they should consider allowing the top seeds to choose their opponent.
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Even being knocked out in the ro16 guarantees you $500 prizemoney + $500 travel stipend. For people having to travel intercontinental you probably need to make it to ro8 to make money out of it (I think it's 1.5k + 500). After that the money skyrockets, even 4th place is the same as winning MLG.
edit.
After reading Xeris' thread on the Open tournament I realise the top 8 Open players also qualify for season 2. Plenty more incentive for Korean entries.
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On June 12 2011 14:03 Jinsho wrote:
No-one needs a "true ranked order of skill", we just need some brackets for a tournament. Doing highest seed <-> lowest seed is perfectly fine.
I've never understood the attitude against having objective results. That "we just need some brackets for a tournament" flies in the face of actually finding out a true winner when the system itself is flawed. Advocating such a thing is the same logic as simply saying we just need one map per match to be played.
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Canada13389 Posts
On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners
This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player.
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On June 09 2011 14:11 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 14:04 VPCursed wrote:
dunno why they would do this.. rofl.. who the fuck would want to be top seed in the NASL? Apparently, some guy named Select, another called Julyzerg and some Squirtle do. I don't know man, I wish they were all like you and liked the easy way out instead of y'know, actually enjoying some competition, cause in the end, it is not at all what the NASL is, a competition.
This post makes me laugh my ass off because both July and SeleCT effectively threw their most recent games.
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This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player.
Not to mention the #1 overall seed will get one week less of prep time for his opponent. Every other player will know their opponent by this time tomorrow. There is absolutely no advantage to being #1 seed at the moment.
Edit: actually the higher seeds won't know until next week since they play the playoff winners which is another disadvantage even for them, but the #1 seed has to wait even longer than they do. I understand the concept behind NASL's system, in practice it plays out poorly though.
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On June 12 2011 13:52 deL wrote:
The "top seed" is pretty arbitrary anyway as it's based on the player's performance in one of 5 groups. It could easily happen that the top overall seed is a "worse player" than all the other seeds who did not share a group with him if the group is in any way easier.
I think if the seed were based on performance against everyone in the tournament in some way (e.g. through an elimination bracket) then it would be fair to claim that playing the open winner is almost certainly a disadvantage. This isn't the case though and you have to seed it somehow - I don't think some midway solution like having #6 seed play the open winner is any better at all because if you can justify the OP for #1 seed you can justify it for all but 15th seed. Having 1 vs 14, 2 vs 13, etc. and 15 vs open winner would be quite odd and might reward the last seed.
I don't know the prizemoney distribution but I do hope it goes deep enough to reward the top group performers enough even if they are taken out in round 1 of the playoffs.
Your reasoning is not entirely true. I can justify that open winner playing against the top seed is bad in a way that it only holds true for 1st-5th seed. The one thing as a player that you have full control over is whether or not you win your own division (inequalities in division strength makes it hard to control getting 1st in league). Winning your division could cause you to be top seed and play the open winner. Playing below your level can get you away from playing the open seed. This is the case for 1st-5th.
If the 6th seed plays the open winner, the method to dodge this match is to play better, which is better for the league in general. Players will not intentionally drop to 3rd place in division because it takes them out of the championship and puts them into a risky playoff.
Open winner as the 6th seed creates a motivation to play up as opposed to play down, big difference.
On June 12 2011 14:11 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:03 Jinsho wrote:
No-one needs a "true ranked order of skill", we just need some brackets for a tournament. Doing highest seed <-> lowest seed is perfectly fine. I've never understood the attitude against having objective results. That "we just need some brackets for a tournament" flies in the face of actually finding out a true winner when the system itself is flawed. Advocating such a thing is the same logic as simply saying we just need one map per match to be played.
We don't need a true ranked order of skill, but we don't just need brackets either. We don't have to get hung up on making the ultimate skill ranking, but we do need a bracket that accomplishes a goal.
The goal of a bracket is to provide a strong tournament setup and design. Tournaments do not just determine the winner of the tournament, but they also entertain spectators and pay participants based off of performance. As such, the main goal of the bracket is to allow stronger players to get into the deeper rounds of the tournament. Its good for the players, its good for the spectators, its good for the organizers.
Top seed vs open winner is counter to the goal of the bracket system. The absolute ranking of those particular players is not important and is not determinable. Focus on accomplishing the goal of the bracket. I feel that open winner being 11th seed best accomplishes that goal.
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On June 12 2011 14:16 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player.
I don't know why Select did it. _ANY_ player in the top16 offline final will be a hard opponent. So I don't think it was necessary from him / gave him any advantage
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On June 14 2011 17:34 Tofugrinder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:16 ZeromuS wrote:On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player. I don't know why Select did it. _ANY_ player in the top16 offline final will be a hard opponent. So I don't think it was necessary from him / gave him any advantage
Because if it is a top Korean who win the Open Tournament, he'll be the best player among the 16. The 15th seeds will be under the lvl of a Bomber/MMA/Nestea/MvP/Mkp, and by a certain margin. And if it is Dimaga/Kas, if you're not a P you're in a bad spot too (especially July, if he faces Dimaga he's out). Thorzain is better than half of this players too, at least.
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On June 14 2011 18:44 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 17:34 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 12 2011 14:16 ZeromuS wrote:On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player. I don't know why Select did it. _ANY_ player in the top16 offline final will be a hard opponent. So I don't think it was necessary from him / gave him any advantage Because if it is a top Korean who win the Open Tournament, he'll be the best player among the 16. The 15th seeds will be under the lvl of a Bomber/MMA/Nestea/MvP/Mkp, and by a certain margin. And if it is Dimaga/Kas, if you're not a P you're in a bad spot too (especially July, if he faces Dimaga he's out). Thorzain is better than half of this players too, at least.
I don't care if the winner of the open tournament is a korean or a non-korean. It's obvious that only one of the best will make it through. But everyone else in the offline tournament will be awesome as well. My point is: it doesn't matter if you for example don't get matched against Dimaga when you then draw Sen to play against..
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Yeah, but you still want to maximize your winnings. I am pretty sure all players in this tournament accepted that realistically they have a small chance of winning (even the eventual champion, for example Thorzain did not have a 100% chance of winning at the start of TSL3 either). They are all interested in maximizing their earnings (and they should be). Not because they are money grabbing bastards, but because that is what everybody in their place would and should do, that is what the money is for in the end, an incentive to get good players create good games.
Besides, if you are second best skill wise, and you can choose whether you lose to the best in the round of 16 or in the final, that does not seem like a difficult choice to make.
Sure anyone might be able to beat anyone in the top tier, but there is still an odds game at play, and when you multiply odds with expected earnings, I can guarantee you that it is advantageous to maximize your chances of getting just one round further in the tournament. And the best format from a viewer and player perspective is one where maximizing your chances of getting further depend on you playing to the best of your ability, not on losing to get to the proper place in the rankings.
WGarrison is right.
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On June 14 2011 19:27 Tofugrinder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 18:44 Imres wrote:On June 14 2011 17:34 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 12 2011 14:16 ZeromuS wrote:On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player. I don't know why Select did it. _ANY_ player in the top16 offline final will be a hard opponent. So I don't think it was necessary from him / gave him any advantage Because if it is a top Korean who win the Open Tournament, he'll be the best player among the 16. The 15th seeds will be under the lvl of a Bomber/MMA/Nestea/MvP/Mkp, and by a certain margin. And if it is Dimaga/Kas, if you're not a P you're in a bad spot too (especially July, if he faces Dimaga he's out). Thorzain is better than half of this players too, at least. I don't care if the winner of the open tournament is a korean or a non-korean. It's obvious that only one of the best will make it through. But everyone else in the offline tournament will be awesome as well. My point is: it doesn't matter if you for example don't get matched against Dimaga when you then draw Sen to play against..
Tell me who is at the level of Bomber/MVP/Nestea/MKP/Polt except MC in the 15 seeds in NASL. I'm curious.
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it really depends who signs up, time will tell
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On June 14 2011 21:34 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 19:27 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 14 2011 18:44 Imres wrote:On June 14 2011 17:34 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 12 2011 14:16 ZeromuS wrote:On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player. I don't know why Select did it. _ANY_ player in the top16 offline final will be a hard opponent. So I don't think it was necessary from him / gave him any advantage Because if it is a top Korean who win the Open Tournament, he'll be the best player among the 16. The 15th seeds will be under the lvl of a Bomber/MMA/Nestea/MvP/Mkp, and by a certain margin. And if it is Dimaga/Kas, if you're not a P you're in a bad spot too (especially July, if he faces Dimaga he's out). Thorzain is better than half of this players too, at least. I don't care if the winner of the open tournament is a korean or a non-korean. It's obvious that only one of the best will make it through. But everyone else in the offline tournament will be awesome as well. My point is: it doesn't matter if you for example don't get matched against Dimaga when you then draw Sen to play against.. Tell me who is at the level of Bomber/MVP/Nestea/MKP/Polt except MC in the 15 seeds in NASL. I'm curious.
who of the guys you named actually signed up for the tournament? Last time I checked no korean signed up.
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On June 14 2011 21:40 Tofugrinder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 21:34 Imres wrote:On June 14 2011 19:27 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 14 2011 18:44 Imres wrote:On June 14 2011 17:34 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 12 2011 14:16 ZeromuS wrote:On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player. I don't know why Select did it. _ANY_ player in the top16 offline final will be a hard opponent. So I don't think it was necessary from him / gave him any advantage Because if it is a top Korean who win the Open Tournament, he'll be the best player among the 16. The 15th seeds will be under the lvl of a Bomber/MMA/Nestea/MvP/Mkp, and by a certain margin. And if it is Dimaga/Kas, if you're not a P you're in a bad spot too (especially July, if he faces Dimaga he's out). Thorzain is better than half of this players too, at least. I don't care if the winner of the open tournament is a korean or a non-korean. It's obvious that only one of the best will make it through. But everyone else in the offline tournament will be awesome as well. My point is: it doesn't matter if you for example don't get matched against Dimaga when you then draw Sen to play against.. Tell me who is at the level of Bomber/MVP/Nestea/MKP/Polt except MC in the 15 seeds in NASL. I'm curious. who if the guys you named actually signed up for the tournament? Last time I checked no korean signed up.
yeah, none of the players you listed will apply.
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On June 14 2011 21:46 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 21:40 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 14 2011 21:34 Imres wrote:On June 14 2011 19:27 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 14 2011 18:44 Imres wrote:On June 14 2011 17:34 Tofugrinder wrote:On June 12 2011 14:16 ZeromuS wrote:On June 09 2011 11:28 jalstar wrote:
I think it should be:
1-10: Top 2 of each division
11: Open Bracket winner
12-16: Wild Card Playoff winners This actually makes the most sense imo. this way you dont have a player like Select throwing a few games so he doesnt need to face an unknown player. I don't know why Select did it. _ANY_ player in the top16 offline final will be a hard opponent. So I don't think it was necessary from him / gave him any advantage Because if it is a top Korean who win the Open Tournament, he'll be the best player among the 16. The 15th seeds will be under the lvl of a Bomber/MMA/Nestea/MvP/Mkp, and by a certain margin. And if it is Dimaga/Kas, if you're not a P you're in a bad spot too (especially July, if he faces Dimaga he's out). Thorzain is better than half of this players too, at least. I don't care if the winner of the open tournament is a korean or a non-korean. It's obvious that only one of the best will make it through. But everyone else in the offline tournament will be awesome as well. My point is: it doesn't matter if you for example don't get matched against Dimaga when you then draw Sen to play against.. Tell me who is at the level of Bomber/MVP/Nestea/MKP/Polt except MC in the 15 seeds in NASL. I'm curious. who if the guys you named actually signed up for the tournament? Last time I checked no korean signed up. yeah, none of the players you listed will apply.
That's why MVP is currently owning the NA ladder maybe. And with 50k$ on the line, some of them are probably going to apply. That's maybe why Select and July lost their game on purpose too...
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There are two arguments that seem to be recurring here.
(1) The open winner is obviously the lowest seed.
WHAaaa.....? The dude who beats 1,000 other entrants in a series of win-or-go-home matches is considered a lower seed than the dude who beat up on Artosis and Grubby? (I love both of you, but ...)
(2) There isn't actually a Korean signed up for the open tournament so it's no biggie.
There are still some gnarly possibilities already. EGDeMusliM coming back from the DL could be ferocious, sixjaxMajOr could get some TvZ practice in and stomp some nerds, and ThorZaIN would be a nightmare in the first round of the championship.
I tend to like the insertion into the bracket at 11 as suggested above (^_^)-b, but realize that NASL may not feasibly implement changes to the schematic until the second season. Keep up the amazing work, NASL folk!!
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So much fear that Ret faces a hard opponent? Oh cmon at least say it directly. Please don't let Ret play vs [Insert random good player]! Easy.
Edit: Ret is good enough to beat anyone imo.
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On June 14 2011 23:28 Rammstorm wrote:
So much fear that Ret faces a hard opponent? Oh cmon at least say it directly. Please don't let Ret play vs [Insert random good player]! Easy.
Edit: Ret is good enough to beat anyone imo.
Yeah, is Code A runs demonstrated that...
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This is the first season ever and you expect seeding to have sorted it's self out yet? Are you mental! If they undermined this commonly used(and for good reason) seeding process then they will have to evaluate the open bracket winner seed every single season.
Down the line it's just going to cause more problems doing this(read: people like you finding an excuse to bitch) rather than having a set standard they can fall back on.
All we should really be asking them is for NASL to take the open bracket results and think wisely about how they will be incorporated into their invitations next season
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EPT
