EPTIssue with NASL First Seed vs Open Winner - Page 9
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On June 10 2011 02:56 dmillz wrote: Just like Nestea or MC would SMASH Thorzain in the TSL...oh wait. Making assumptions like that after some of the huge upsets that recently happened is pretty pointless. You know the bracket games are played live at location. How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG? There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes". | ||
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h3nG
46 Posts
If I were in the spot to be #1 seed and I am guaranteed #2 in my division, I would throw away my final game to avoid playing the Open bracket winner. MOST will agree on this also. It stupid to gamble on who the wildcard player is. It could (and most likely) be someone of MMA or Bomber caliber. And as good as everyone is in NASL, most are not that caliber... That is the real problem with the seeding system. We could be seeing the most epic game in round one, and see NASL robbing one of the two potentially top players from the 2nd place spot because of it. As for solution? One is to determine the true seeding of Open Bracket winner by putting him through a few games first...kinda like MLG. | ||
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elsemyano
United States33 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:46 JLew wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On June 10 2011 01:36 jacobmarlow wrote: Kraznaya your a disgrace to all chinese gamers. People including myself voted for players like Artosis and Grubby to be in the NASL. People wanted to see them play. I thought it was a brilliant move for NASL to give viewers a chance to see their favorite players play, regardless of what arbitrary player ranking people like yourself would have in their simple mind. Please do us all a favor and stfu for the sake of China and all chinese immigrants living in North America. lol, I find it ironic that you say one persons (albeit stupid) comment is a disgrace to the single largest people group in the world, implying something even more ignorant then what he wrote. I'm sure ''Kraznaya'' didn't write his post with the burden of all Chinese gamers and Chinese American immigrants on his shoulders, Much like you didn't write yours to represent all of Canada. To get back on topic; I also don't see how people are saying you put the open bracket winner higher then 16th? The 50 NASL pros played all season to get as good of a seed as possible in the playoffs, and you want to just arbitrarily throw someone in the middle of the playoffs where you ''think'' it would be fair for him and the rest of the bracket, that's not how things work. Like someone else stated, even if this guy loses in the first round he's already won a place in next seasons NASL as well as travel to the NASL event which is a treat in itself. I am not sure why people don't just watch and enjoy this event and how it unfolds as I'm sure either way it will be exciting, I'm sure if at the end of it all it is obvious that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way it all works out ( in regards to the open bracket winner being in the round of 16 ) the NASL will willingly change it and improve upon it for season 2. There are motives for the change other than the idea that the open bracket winner will likely be better than a number of players from the NASL. Read the past few pages. The same arguments have been repeated over and over. If the open bracket winner losing in the 1st round won't be a problem, how about the #1 seed from the league losing against the open tournament winner? If the open tournament winner was a top-class player, this isn't optimal, as there would be a finals-quality matchup in the first round. If the open tournament winner was some unknown, the #1 seed would be at a disadvantage in terms of preparation. We're not ragging on the system because we hate NASL. We're making suggestions and giving constructive criticism because we want to see it grow and be the best it can be. On June 10 2011 02:03 dmillz wrote: Holy crap do a lot of you like to whine about pointless crap! There is no way you can seed the winner of the open tournament higher then a player who played for 9 weeks to earn their spot. You guys keep saying how is it fair if the winner of the open tournament is someone like MMA? First off life isn't fair. Second what if it's some scrub who 6pools every single game to win the tournament? There is no way of knowing who will win and you can do seeding based on who wins the tournament. You have to assume that the top 15 that EARNED their spot are the 15 best players. 1 match per week over the course of 9 weeks is hardly a burden for a SC2 progamer. There's no way anyone can say that the winner of ~10 BO3's in a row in a bracket sure to be stacked with the best pros not already in the NASL (Thorzain already registered) will not have "earned" his spot either. Again, unpredictability of the open winner is one of the reasons the #1 seed shouldn't have to play him. The open tourney winner being seeded 11th still seems like the best option to me. | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On June 09 2011 12:11 LegendaryZ wrote: How does the "NA" part even apply as an argument when you already have Europeans and Asians playing in the league anyway. They were clearly poor choices (well, maybe not PainUser at the time) and chosen primarily for their star power rather than any merit of skill. There were most definitely better people that could have taken those spots from both the foreign and Korean communities. He was probably trying to make an "americans are stupid" comment. | ||
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DoomsVille
Canada4885 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:20 War Horse wrote: You know the bracket games are played live at location. How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG? There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes". Uh... thorzain actually did ok against MC at MLG... He went 0-2 in the first BO3... but went 2-2 in the next. Technically he is 5-6 in their 11 games played. I'd say they are pretty close to even... maybe MC being a slight bit ahead. Also MC was in europe during that TSL match. It's not like he was playing with delay or at a strange time. | ||
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WGarrison
United States96 Posts
Answer is it doesn't matter what spot he deserves. The principle behind the seeding system is to both provide benefits to high performing competitors and provide the best scenarios for Championship finals. In honor of this principle I believe the open winner should be seeded 11th, no need to try to test where he should be. Firstly, its clean and simple. No need to do any hubbub of attempting to determine the skill of the player. No complicated layers of extra games. No player politics and drama of player choice seeding. Clean, simple, understandable by everyone. Secondly, we need to protect the 5 division leaders. Worst case scenario is that the open winner is so strong he is favored over the top seed. We don't care about the other scenarios because we have a situation that could jeopardize the honest performance of the top players to dodge this worst case scenario. Let the 6th seed play against the open winner. If the 6th seed doesn't like it, they need to win the division. Win the division and you don't have to worry about the crapshoot of an open winner. Money per round is on the line, you can't risk your top seed. What seed the open winner deserves doesn't matter, its a matter of opinion anyway. Objectively we can say that if the open winner is 16th seed, the 1st seed becomes susceptible to excessive randomness. The top seed can be comfortable playing against the 15th place player in the NASL league, no pressure no deterrent. There is no risk playing the top seed against the 15th placed player. Seed the playoff winners 12-16 so that the division winners are confident and comfortable. The open player is a random factor and as such you insert him where the impact is not potentially disastrous, place him at 11th seed. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
Since players were invited to the first season of the NASL, the player pool isn't as strong as it will be. After several seasons of players dropping out and new players qualifying through the open tournament, the winner of the open tournament actually WILL (theoretically) be worse than the top 15 NASL players, or he would have already been in the NASL. Again this is all theoretical, but over time the league should stabilize in terms of skill levels and it should work like this. As for this season's tournament, what would you have them do? Stick them somewhere in the middle? How do you decide where? Are they better than the 14th seed but worse than the 12th seed but about the same as the 13th seed? What do you do then? Face it, this is the best way to go about this format. | ||
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Smurphy
United States374 Posts
If 1st place chooses the open bracket winner then the open bracket winner is the 16th seed. If 1st place chooses the 15th seed then that chosen player becomes the 16th seed, and the open bracket winner is moved to 15th. Repeat for 2nd seed. Would you rather play the 14th seed or the Open bracket winner? Repeat for 3rd, 4th 5th as needed. This allows the player with the highest seed to have some amount of control. This is fairly easy to understand: Keep bumping up the open bracket player until someone wants to play them. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
So, all I have to say is, I hope July forgets how to win. | ||
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
You also have players like Moon, MMA, Alicia, and Losira. We knew that all 4 of these guys were good before the NASL, but since the tournament started, they've all turned on beast mode and are ripping through all of the competition. On June 09 2011 11:48 AndAgain wrote: Yeah, I think OP makes a good point. It would be better to have the higher seeded players pick who they want to face. I like this idea. Instead of having seed 1-15 plus the winner of the open bracket, seeds 1-8 should get seeded as is, and be allowed to pick who they play in the first round. So for example, whoever has the best record picks someone in the 9-15 plus open winner pool. Whoever comes in second picks next, and on and on until you only have 1 player left, and that player obviously plays #8. I think that this is a better system, since it gives a good reward to high finishing player, as well as giving more meaning to the players who finish top two in their respective groups. | ||
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Wren
United States745 Posts
On June 09 2011 17:06 Zeiryuu wrote: What if we let the players choose? Starting from the top... Ex: #1 Seed picks #14 Seed #2 Seed picks #3 Seed #4 Seed picks # 10 Seed And so on... I like this idea. It's a great way to deal with the expected variance in results, while still protecting/rewarding the players who performed well during the season! | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:20 War Horse wrote: You know the bracket games are played live at location. How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG? There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes". Thorzain vs MC was played while MC was in europe because of Dreamhack. | ||
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WGarrison
United States96 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:23 h3nG wrote: At this point it doesn't seem like NASL will change it - which really is a shame. But what I am disappointed about is the fact that this issue was identified along time ago and it wasn't addressed. If I were in the spot to be #1 seed and I am guaranteed #2 in my division, I would throw away my final game to avoid playing the Open bracket winner. MOST will agree on this also. It stupid to gamble on who the wildcard player is. It could (and most likely) be someone of MMA or Bomber caliber. And as good as everyone is in NASL, most are not that caliber... That is the real problem with the seeding system. We could be seeing the most epic game in round one, and see NASL robbing one of the two potentially top players from the 2nd place spot because of it. As for solution? One is to determine the true seeding of Open Bracket winner by putting him through a few games first...kinda like MLG. I wouldn't be so pessimistic. NASL has a good record of making appropriate changes on the fly. Also I know NASL is paying attention to this thread. iNcontroL has actively responded to some posts in his own snarky sarcasm (please never change man!) and it means he is reading what we say. I have other evidence that others within NASL are also aware and paying attention. Lets keep on trying to convince people. Maybe what we say will grab iNcontroL's attention as a player. Maybe he agrees with our point that if he were top seed he wouldn't want to play against the open winner. Maybe he helps plead our case to the heads of NASL. Maybe what we say gets NASL's attention in terms of marketing. With an 11th seed open winner he would play the top seed in the final. Maybe NASL sees the value of the possible open vs top seed matchup that hypes itself. To me this is similar to extended series at MLG (yes I'm prodding iNcontroL again  ). I see a need for change here and I'm going to argue for it. | ||
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h3nG
46 Posts
Many people have brought up very valid points on why this is so flawed. I haven't seen a strong argument for it yet. The only ones I've seen that may be valid is "it is what it is" - But I just don't see how changing this rule mid way will mess things up. As I see it, it's more detrimental to the league to NOT change it. Plus one of the things I like so much about NASL is their dedication to fix all the quarks. | ||
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PtM
89 Posts
On June 10 2011 01:28 piegasm wrote: The top 15 players from the main league are definitely going to be exceptional players, who've participated in the league for its entirety and earned a position based on their results as compared to everyone else's results. We know this because all the people currently participating are well known pros who have proven themselves both in the NASL and outside. The open bracket winner will probably be an exceptional player as well but could be a fluke. And you want to seed him higher than half the field based on "probably" and call that fair. Even if the open bracket winner is a pro himself, on what grounds do you assume he's a better pro than the people he's going to out-seed? However good he is, why does he deserve to take precedence over players who competed in the main league and earned their results? The way I see it, someone with no results in a league doesn't deserve to be seeded higher in the playoffs of said league than someone who does have results. I'd be willing to give very good odds on a bet that the open bracket winner will not be "a fluke". Even looking at MLG Columbus, which is fewer rounds than NASL and with four players advancing, we saw ThorZaIN, JulyZerg, MajOr, and Fenix advance. Considering that this tournament has several times the prize pool and that it's online, I expect to see every top NA/EU player that's not already in the league participating in the open tournament and many Koreans are likely to get involved as well; it's nearly guaranteed that an exceptionally strong player will qualify. Regarding your point that the players participating in the league have "earned their seed", I have a few responses. First and foremost, I agree with you that those players should be rewarded for their performance in the league play. Indeed, the player that should be rewarded the most is the 1st seed, and it is largely in the interest of protecting him that people are calling for a change in the format. As the 1st seed, I'd find it extremely disheartening to find out that I worked hard for 9 weeks of league play only to be rewarded by having to face someone like NesTea. Secondly, the winner of the open bracket does actually have to win ten consecutive Bo3's. To say that the league players earned their seed but that the open winner didn't is a little silly. Yes, some of the earlier matches are likely to be against amateurs but the player still has to go 10-0 in Bo3's while the league players might get by with something like 7-2. Admittedly, those games will have been played against other league players (which are arguably better than the open field, though I'm confident that the late stages of the open tournament will be extremely competitive) but it's still unfair to characterize it as some sort of lottery. Again, though, I want to emphasize that it's not a question of what the open winner deserves, though you can make a case for them earning a decent seed. The issue is that the player who earned the 1st seed is likely to be forced to play a top Korean player (or another exceptional talent like ThorZaIN) that advances through the open bracket, and that isn't going to be fair to the 1st seed. As others have pointed out, it's also not good from the point of view of getting good matches deeper into the tournament, which is much better for the spectators. | ||
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Nerdslayer
Denmark1130 Posts
On June 10 2011 03:20 War Horse wrote: You know the bracket games are played live at location. How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG? There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes". Thorzain actually beat MC 2-1 and would have knockout MC if not for the unfair extended rule so I woulnt call Thorzain a flux And also MC was in europe at the time so there was no lag.. You really shoudl try to keep up with facts when you wanna spawn crap | ||
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WGarrison
United States96 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:59 h3nG wrote: I have faith iNcontroL will bring this point up to the NASL team. I imagine the reason he hasn't said a word is because he agrees but hasn't made a point for it since he hasn't been able to convince or discuss this with the NASL team yet. Many people have brought up very valid points on why this is so flawed. I haven't seen a strong argument for it yet. The only ones I've seen that may be valid is "it is what it is" - But I just don't see how changing this rule mid way will mess things up. As I see it, it's more detrimental to the league to NOT change it. Plus one of the things I like so much about NASL is their dedication to fix all the quarks. I agree entirely. I have seen one valid argument that supports 16th seed, the argument that the NASL players deserve 1st-15th seeds. It is opinion based though and is just as valid the other way. I guess we will just see what NASL does with the information we have offered. | ||
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PantsB
United States77 Posts
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Rasun
United States787 Posts
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