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Issue with NASL First Seed vs Open Winner - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
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ffadicted
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3545 Posts
June 09 2011 18:09 GMT
#161
I would have to say I'd much rather get second and be guaranteed to play someone who has had a poor showing than be first and risk playing a superstar. Agreed with the OP, but not sure what a possible solution would be. Maybe seed the open bracket winner as a middle seed?
SooYoung-Noona!
War Horse
Profile Joined January 2011
United States247 Posts
June 09 2011 18:20 GMT
#162
On June 10 2011 02:56 dmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2011 02:50 War Horse wrote:
On June 10 2011 02:42 RmoteCntrld wrote:
If you're a number one seed it shouldn't matter who you face first round, you should be able to beat anyone thrown in your way. Same goes for the open bracket since everyone seems to think that if that player was put in group play he'd be the one seed.

If a player like NesTea or Bomber goes through the open bracket (and I will take the odds a top Korean will win the open bracket), they will smash the #1 NASL seed


Just like Nestea or MC would SMASH Thorzain in the TSL...oh wait. Making assumptions like that after some of the huge upsets that recently happened is pretty pointless.

You know the bracket games are played live at location.

How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG?

There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes".
Why appeal to God when you can appeal to Apaches?
h3nG
Profile Joined March 2011
46 Posts
June 09 2011 18:23 GMT
#163
At this point it doesn't seem like NASL will change it - which really is a shame. But what I am disappointed about is the fact that this issue was identified along time ago and it wasn't addressed.

If I were in the spot to be #1 seed and I am guaranteed #2 in my division, I would throw away my final game to avoid playing the Open bracket winner. MOST will agree on this also. It stupid to gamble on who the wildcard player is. It could (and most likely) be someone of MMA or Bomber caliber. And as good as everyone is in NASL, most are not that caliber...

That is the real problem with the seeding system. We could be seeing the most epic game in round one, and see NASL robbing one of the two potentially top players from the 2nd place spot because of it.

As for solution? One is to determine the true seeding of Open Bracket winner by putting him through a few games first...kinda like MLG.
elsemyano
Profile Joined February 2011
United States33 Posts
June 09 2011 18:51 GMT
#164
On June 10 2011 01:46 JLew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On June 10 2011 01:36 jacobmarlow wrote:
Kraznaya your a disgrace to all chinese gamers. People including myself voted for players like Artosis and Grubby to be in the NASL. People wanted to see them play. I thought it was a brilliant move for NASL to give viewers a chance to see their favorite players play, regardless of what arbitrary player ranking people like yourself would have in their simple mind. Please do us all a favor and stfu for the sake of China and all chinese immigrants living in North America.


lol, I find it ironic that you say one persons (albeit stupid) comment is a disgrace to the single largest people group in the world, implying something even more ignorant then what he wrote. I'm sure ''Kraznaya'' didn't write his post with the burden of all Chinese gamers and Chinese American immigrants on his shoulders, Much like you didn't write yours to represent all of Canada.


To get back on topic; I also don't see how people are saying you put the open bracket winner higher then 16th? The 50 NASL pros played all season to get as good of a seed as possible in the playoffs, and you want to just arbitrarily throw someone in the middle of the playoffs where you ''think'' it would be fair for him and the rest of the bracket, that's not how things work.

Like someone else stated, even if this guy loses in the first round he's already won a place in next seasons NASL as well as travel to the NASL event which is a treat in itself.

I am not sure why people don't just watch and enjoy this event and how it unfolds as I'm sure either way it will be exciting, I'm sure if at the end of it all it is obvious that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way it all works out ( in regards to the open bracket winner being in the round of 16 ) the NASL will willingly change it and improve upon it for season 2.


There are motives for the change other than the idea that the open bracket winner will likely be better than a number of players from the NASL. Read the past few pages. The same arguments have been repeated over and over.

If the open bracket winner losing in the 1st round won't be a problem, how about the #1 seed from the league losing against the open tournament winner? If the open tournament winner was a top-class player, this isn't optimal, as there would be a finals-quality matchup in the first round. If the open tournament winner was some unknown, the #1 seed would be at a disadvantage in terms of preparation.

We're not ragging on the system because we hate NASL. We're making suggestions and giving constructive criticism because we want to see it grow and be the best it can be.


On June 10 2011 02:03 dmillz wrote:
Holy crap do a lot of you like to whine about pointless crap! There is no way you can seed the winner of the open tournament higher then a player who played for 9 weeks to earn their spot. You guys keep saying how is it fair if the winner of the open tournament is someone like MMA? First off life isn't fair. Second what if it's some scrub who 6pools every single game to win the tournament? There is no way of knowing who will win and you can do seeding based on who wins the tournament. You have to assume that the top 15 that EARNED their spot are the 15 best players.


1 match per week over the course of 9 weeks is hardly a burden for a SC2 progamer. There's no way anyone can say that the winner of ~10 BO3's in a row in a bracket sure to be stacked with the best pros not already in the NASL (Thorzain already registered) will not have "earned" his spot either. Again, unpredictability of the open winner is one of the reasons the #1 seed shouldn't have to play him.

The open tourney winner being seeded 11th still seems like the best option to me.
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
June 09 2011 18:54 GMT
#165
On June 09 2011 12:11 LegendaryZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2011 11:51 sc2guy wrote:
On June 09 2011 11:28 Kraznaya wrote:
This just underlines NASL's stupidity in general. They invited people like Artosis, Grubby, Painuser, etc. when they clearly weren't the top 50 players in the world, and now you have problems like these.


Read NASL.


How does the "NA" part even apply as an argument when you already have Europeans and Asians playing in the league anyway. They were clearly poor choices (well, maybe not PainUser at the time) and chosen primarily for their star power rather than any merit of skill. There were most definitely better people that could have taken those spots from both the foreign and Korean communities.



He was probably trying to make an "americans are stupid" comment.
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
DoomsVille
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada4885 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 18:57:23
June 09 2011 18:56 GMT
#166
On June 10 2011 03:20 War Horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2011 02:56 dmillz wrote:
On June 10 2011 02:50 War Horse wrote:
On June 10 2011 02:42 RmoteCntrld wrote:
If you're a number one seed it shouldn't matter who you face first round, you should be able to beat anyone thrown in your way. Same goes for the open bracket since everyone seems to think that if that player was put in group play he'd be the one seed.

If a player like NesTea or Bomber goes through the open bracket (and I will take the odds a top Korean will win the open bracket), they will smash the #1 NASL seed


Just like Nestea or MC would SMASH Thorzain in the TSL...oh wait. Making assumptions like that after some of the huge upsets that recently happened is pretty pointless.

You know the bracket games are played live at location.

How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG?

There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes".

Uh... thorzain actually did ok against MC at MLG...

He went 0-2 in the first BO3... but went 2-2 in the next. Technically he is 5-6 in their 11 games played.

I'd say they are pretty close to even... maybe MC being a slight bit ahead.

Also MC was in europe during that TSL match. It's not like he was playing with delay or at a strange time.
WGarrison
Profile Joined February 2011
United States96 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 20:00:19
June 09 2011 19:55 GMT
#167
There has been a lot of discussion about where the open winner deserves to be seeded. How will we know what the strength of the player will be? He could be the worst but luckiest player ever, or it could be someone who is a favorite to take the whole thing. A seed has to be picked for him, what is fair? 16th? 11th? 1st?

Answer is it doesn't matter what spot he deserves. The principle behind the seeding system is to both provide benefits to high performing competitors and provide the best scenarios for Championship finals. In honor of this principle I believe the open winner should be seeded 11th, no need to try to test where he should be.

Firstly, its clean and simple. No need to do any hubbub of attempting to determine the skill of the player. No complicated layers of extra games. No player politics and drama of player choice seeding. Clean, simple, understandable by everyone.

Secondly, we need to protect the 5 division leaders. Worst case scenario is that the open winner is so strong he is favored over the top seed. We don't care about the other scenarios because we have a situation that could jeopardize the honest performance of the top players to dodge this worst case scenario. Let the 6th seed play against the open winner. If the 6th seed doesn't like it, they need to win the division. Win the division and you don't have to worry about the crapshoot of an open winner. Money per round is on the line, you can't risk your top seed.

What seed the open winner deserves doesn't matter, its a matter of opinion anyway. Objectively we can say that if the open winner is 16th seed, the 1st seed becomes susceptible to excessive randomness. The top seed can be comfortable playing against the 15th place player in the NASL league, no pressure no deterrent. There is no risk playing the top seed against the 15th placed player. Seed the playoff winners 12-16 so that the division winners are confident and comfortable. The open player is a random factor and as such you insert him where the impact is not potentially disastrous, place him at 11th seed.
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
June 09 2011 20:01 GMT
#168
The system was made that way with more stable, future tournaments in mind.

Since players were invited to the first season of the NASL, the player pool isn't as strong as it will be. After several seasons of players dropping out and new players qualifying through the open tournament, the winner of the open tournament actually WILL (theoretically) be worse than the top 15 NASL players, or he would have already been in the NASL.

Again this is all theoretical, but over time the league should stabilize in terms of skill levels and it should work like this.

As for this season's tournament, what would you have them do? Stick them somewhere in the middle? How do you decide where? Are they better than the 14th seed but worse than the 12th seed but about the same as the 13th seed? What do you do then? Face it, this is the best way to go about this format.
Smurphy
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States374 Posts
June 09 2011 20:08 GMT
#169
I would allow the first place competitor to have a choice: Who would you rather play, the lowest seed (15th seed) or the open bracket winner?

If 1st place chooses the open bracket winner then the open bracket winner is the 16th seed.
If 1st place chooses the 15th seed then that chosen player becomes the 16th seed, and the open bracket winner is moved to 15th.

Repeat for 2nd seed. Would you rather play the 14th seed or the Open bracket winner?
Repeat for 3rd, 4th 5th as needed.

This allows the player with the highest seed to have some amount of control.
This is fairly easy to understand: Keep bumping up the open bracket player until someone wants to play them.
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
June 09 2011 20:20 GMT
#170
I am pretty sure the winner of the open tournament is guaranteed to be a really skilled player, such as a Thorzain or a Korean. There is little to no chance that a terrible player can cheese there way through a 1024 man tournament. For a not so skilled player to win, the field would have to be a joke and the not so skilled player will have to get a little bit lucky. But considering the NASL prize pool is so huge, and the fact that a player like MVP or Thorzain or Kas are pretty likely to tear through the noobs, it seems very unlikely that the winner of the open tournament will be bad.

So, all I have to say is, I hope July forgets how to win.
KiLL_ORdeR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1518 Posts
June 09 2011 20:27 GMT
#171
OP definitely makes a valid point. The scope of the game has changed so much since the players were announced. Just look at Thorzain and Kas. Both players are vastly superior to anyone in the bottom 3 of each group, and both would prpbably be competitive for a top two seed in any of the groups. However, nobody knew who they were when they applied for the NASL.

You also have players like Moon, MMA, Alicia, and Losira. We knew that all 4 of these guys were good before the NASL, but since the tournament started, they've all turned on beast mode and are ripping through all of the competition.

On June 09 2011 11:48 AndAgain wrote:
Yeah, I think OP makes a good point. It would be better to have the higher seeded players pick who they want to face.


I like this idea. Instead of having seed 1-15 plus the winner of the open bracket, seeds 1-8 should get seeded as is, and be allowed to pick who they play in the first round. So for example, whoever has the best record picks someone in the 9-15 plus open winner pool. Whoever comes in second picks next, and on and on until you only have 1 player left, and that player obviously plays #8. I think that this is a better system, since it gives a good reward to high finishing player, as well as giving more meaning to the players who finish top two in their respective groups.
In order to move forward, we must rid ourselves of that which holds us back. Check out my stream and give me tips! twitch.tv/intotheskyy
Wren
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States745 Posts
June 09 2011 20:27 GMT
#172
On June 09 2011 17:06 Zeiryuu wrote:
What if we let the players choose? Starting from the top...
Ex:
#1 Seed picks #14 Seed
#2 Seed picks #3 Seed
#4 Seed picks # 10 Seed
And so on...

I like this idea. It's a great way to deal with the expected variance in results, while still protecting/rewarding the players who performed well during the season!
We're here! We're queer! We don't want any more bears!
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
June 09 2011 20:31 GMT
#173
On June 10 2011 03:20 War Horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2011 02:56 dmillz wrote:
On June 10 2011 02:50 War Horse wrote:
On June 10 2011 02:42 RmoteCntrld wrote:
If you're a number one seed it shouldn't matter who you face first round, you should be able to beat anyone thrown in your way. Same goes for the open bracket since everyone seems to think that if that player was put in group play he'd be the one seed.

If a player like NesTea or Bomber goes through the open bracket (and I will take the odds a top Korean will win the open bracket), they will smash the #1 NASL seed


Just like Nestea or MC would SMASH Thorzain in the TSL...oh wait. Making assumptions like that after some of the huge upsets that recently happened is pretty pointless.

You know the bracket games are played live at location.

How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG?

There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes".


Thorzain vs MC was played while MC was in europe because of Dreamhack.
WGarrison
Profile Joined February 2011
United States96 Posts
June 09 2011 20:39 GMT
#174
On June 10 2011 03:23 h3nG wrote:
At this point it doesn't seem like NASL will change it - which really is a shame. But what I am disappointed about is the fact that this issue was identified along time ago and it wasn't addressed.

If I were in the spot to be #1 seed and I am guaranteed #2 in my division, I would throw away my final game to avoid playing the Open bracket winner. MOST will agree on this also. It stupid to gamble on who the wildcard player is. It could (and most likely) be someone of MMA or Bomber caliber. And as good as everyone is in NASL, most are not that caliber...

That is the real problem with the seeding system. We could be seeing the most epic game in round one, and see NASL robbing one of the two potentially top players from the 2nd place spot because of it.

As for solution? One is to determine the true seeding of Open Bracket winner by putting him through a few games first...kinda like MLG.


I wouldn't be so pessimistic. NASL has a good record of making appropriate changes on the fly. Also I know NASL is paying attention to this thread. iNcontroL has actively responded to some posts in his own snarky sarcasm (please never change man!) and it means he is reading what we say. I have other evidence that others within NASL are also aware and paying attention.

Lets keep on trying to convince people. Maybe what we say will grab iNcontroL's attention as a player. Maybe he agrees with our point that if he were top seed he wouldn't want to play against the open winner. Maybe he helps plead our case to the heads of NASL.

Maybe what we say gets NASL's attention in terms of marketing. With an 11th seed open winner he would play the top seed in the final. Maybe NASL sees the value of the possible open vs top seed matchup that hypes itself.

To me this is similar to extended series at MLG (yes I'm prodding iNcontroL again ). I see a need for change here and I'm going to argue for it.
h3nG
Profile Joined March 2011
46 Posts
June 09 2011 20:59 GMT
#175
I have faith iNcontroL will bring this point up to the NASL team. I imagine the reason he hasn't said a word is because he agrees but hasn't made a point for it since he hasn't been able to convince or discuss this with the NASL team yet.

Many people have brought up very valid points on why this is so flawed. I haven't seen a strong argument for it yet. The only ones I've seen that may be valid is "it is what it is" - But I just don't see how changing this rule mid way will mess things up. As I see it, it's more detrimental to the league to NOT change it. Plus one of the things I like so much about NASL is their dedication to fix all the quarks.
PtM
Profile Joined March 2011
89 Posts
June 09 2011 21:01 GMT
#176
On June 10 2011 01:28 piegasm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2011 23:50 PtM wrote:
On June 09 2011 23:07 piegasm wrote:
On June 09 2011 22:41 archangel2 wrote:
On June 09 2011 20:52 piegasm wrote:
Sooooo....what exactly would be the justification for giving the open bracket winner a higher seed than players who competed in the main league? The winner of the open bracket might be a player every bit as good as anyone in the main league. Or it could be a lesser player nobody has ever heard of who skates through because a top player loses early and leaves a big hole in their portion of the bracket.

Even if you were silly enough to decide you were going to give the open bracket winner a higher seed, how would you know which seed they deserved? The other 15 players have however many weeks worth of results in the league by which they're ranked. The open bracket winner doesn't have that so your idea is to do what? Just make a judgement call after the open bracket is done?

You've got people like TLO, Moonglade, Machine, Socke who have less than stellar results in their divisions but are quite capable of taking wins off of anyone else in the NASL. Say that unknown player gets through the open bracket. Are you going to walk up to one of those guys and say this random who dumb-lucked his way through the open bracket gets a higher seed than you? And which seed do you give him? And what do you base that decision on?

It's all good and well to say the person who gets through the open bracket will be a dangerous player. The problem is there's no empirical way to determine which seed they should get if not the last one on the grounds that they didn't participate in the main league.

To make an analogy to other tournament based things: tennis. Say a top player, Novak Djokavic or Andy Murray maybe, gets injured and can't play for a while. Their ranking falls. When they're ready to come back, their ranking has slipped and they just miss being the 32nd and final seed at Wimbledon. Brackets get drawn and Novak/Andy gets matched against Rafael Nadal 1st round. Sucks to be both players, absolutely. Sucks to be the fans who bought 2nd week Centre Court tickets because they won't be seeing one of these guys. Practically speaking you know that this player is better than 33rd in the world, but he doesn't have results which bear that out so here he is playing Rafa in the 1st round.


You can make an estimation off the "expected quality" of the player. Also, the element of uncertainty argued numerous times in posts above mine is a very solid argument.


Did you actually comprehend any of what I said? There is no objective way to determine the "expected quality" of a player. You try that and you get a complete shit storm, especially in the event that you get a surprise winner of the open bracket.

I don't know what legwork you think "objective" is doing here, but you can certainly make reasonable assumptions about the quality of the player to make it through the open bracket. First consider a very simplified scenario: the open bracket consists exclusively of the players currently in GSL Code S. Can we make any assumptions then, or is it still an utter crapshoot?

Obviously, that's not the scenario we're working with, but it should at least show you that there's no problem with estimating the quality of the winner in principle. At that point it becomes a question of who we expect to sign up, and the effect that we think randomness will have on the outcome.

Given that this is a tournament with a huge prize pool, I think it's very safe to assume that all the top players that can play will choose to do so. I'll add the caveat that some of the players in Korea may choose not to play due to lag, though I doubt this will dissuade many of them. Moreover, as we've seen from MLG open brackets, the pro players actually win very consistently against good-but-not-pro players. I always thought that many pros would be knocked out by fluky cheese strategies due to the sheer number of games they needed to play, but we've seen from both MLG Dallas and MLG Columbus that the pro players advance with remarkable consistency, rarely being eliminated by anyone other than another pro player.

All this to say: the winner of the open tournament is probably going to be extremely good. We can't know exactly how good, but it will almost certainly be a professional player from somewhere, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a top Korean player there. As the OP (and others) have argued in this thread, it's a bad thing for the tournament if the first match of the tournament is likely to eliminate one of the best players in it.

The best solution that I've seen is to seed the player somewhere in the middle of the pack. It insures against the scenario I outlined above, but it also doesn't give the open winner an especially privileged position. And I'd like to stress that nobody is advocating picking and choosing the bracket based on how good we think the players are after the results are in. The goal is to construct a tournament which is likely to produce these outcomes. The idea of seeding people through league play is a good method of achieving this -- the better players are more likely to win in their league games, so they will be seeded higher. But we have very good reason to assume that the winner of the open tournament will be better than many of those players, so it's good tournament design to seed them higher than #16.

With respect to your tennis analogy: that's simply a case of randomness having an impact on the outcome. The system is still designed to produce the right outcome, and that's all we're trying to achieve by amending this seeding rule. Nobody is saying "MC had lag issues so he's actually a better player than his results suggest. Let's seed him higher!" They're saying "the open bracket winner is probably going to be an exceptional player, so it makes sense to seed him higher."


The top 15 players from the main league are definitely going to be exceptional players, who've participated in the league for its entirety and earned a position based on their results as compared to everyone else's results. We know this because all the people currently participating are well known pros who have proven themselves both in the NASL and outside. The open bracket winner will probably be an exceptional player as well but could be a fluke. And you want to seed him higher than half the field based on "probably" and call that fair.

Even if the open bracket winner is a pro himself, on what grounds do you assume he's a better pro than the people he's going to out-seed? However good he is, why does he deserve to take precedence over players who competed in the main league and earned their results? The way I see it, someone with no results in a league doesn't deserve to be seeded higher in the playoffs of said league than someone who does have results.

I'd be willing to give very good odds on a bet that the open bracket winner will not be "a fluke". Even looking at MLG Columbus, which is fewer rounds than NASL and with four players advancing, we saw ThorZaIN, JulyZerg, MajOr, and Fenix advance. Considering that this tournament has several times the prize pool and that it's online, I expect to see every top NA/EU player that's not already in the league participating in the open tournament and many Koreans are likely to get involved as well; it's nearly guaranteed that an exceptionally strong player will qualify.

Regarding your point that the players participating in the league have "earned their seed", I have a few responses. First and foremost, I agree with you that those players should be rewarded for their performance in the league play. Indeed, the player that should be rewarded the most is the 1st seed, and it is largely in the interest of protecting him that people are calling for a change in the format. As the 1st seed, I'd find it extremely disheartening to find out that I worked hard for 9 weeks of league play only to be rewarded by having to face someone like NesTea.

Secondly, the winner of the open bracket does actually have to win ten consecutive Bo3's. To say that the league players earned their seed but that the open winner didn't is a little silly. Yes, some of the earlier matches are likely to be against amateurs but the player still has to go 10-0 in Bo3's while the league players might get by with something like 7-2. Admittedly, those games will have been played against other league players (which are arguably better than the open field, though I'm confident that the late stages of the open tournament will be extremely competitive) but it's still unfair to characterize it as some sort of lottery.

Again, though, I want to emphasize that it's not a question of what the open winner deserves, though you can make a case for them earning a decent seed. The issue is that the player who earned the 1st seed is likely to be forced to play a top Korean player (or another exceptional talent like ThorZaIN) that advances through the open bracket, and that isn't going to be fair to the 1st seed. As others have pointed out, it's also not good from the point of view of getting good matches deeper into the tournament, which is much better for the spectators.
Nerdslayer
Profile Joined April 2011
Denmark1130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 21:09:14
June 09 2011 21:08 GMT
#177
On June 10 2011 03:20 War Horse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2011 02:56 dmillz wrote:
On June 10 2011 02:50 War Horse wrote:
On June 10 2011 02:42 RmoteCntrld wrote:
If you're a number one seed it shouldn't matter who you face first round, you should be able to beat anyone thrown in your way. Same goes for the open bracket since everyone seems to think that if that player was put in group play he'd be the one seed.

If a player like NesTea or Bomber goes through the open bracket (and I will take the odds a top Korean will win the open bracket), they will smash the #1 NASL seed


Just like Nestea or MC would SMASH Thorzain in the TSL...oh wait. Making assumptions like that after some of the huge upsets that recently happened is pretty pointless.

You know the bracket games are played live at location.

How well did Thorzain do vs MC in MLG?

There are things called flukes, heavily influenced by the fact that Koreans are playing early in the morning with cross-ocean server lag. You can keep hoping foreigners can compete, but TSL was a FLUKE. Every other invitational, live tourney, we've seen the top Koreans, in the words of Moon, "own white dudes".


Thorzain actually beat MC 2-1 and would have knockout MC if not for the unfair extended rule so I woulnt call Thorzain a flux

And also MC was in europe at the time so there was no lag..

You really shoudl try to keep up with facts when you wanna spawn crap
WGarrison
Profile Joined February 2011
United States96 Posts
June 09 2011 21:11 GMT
#178
On June 10 2011 05:59 h3nG wrote:
I have faith iNcontroL will bring this point up to the NASL team. I imagine the reason he hasn't said a word is because he agrees but hasn't made a point for it since he hasn't been able to convince or discuss this with the NASL team yet.

Many people have brought up very valid points on why this is so flawed. I haven't seen a strong argument for it yet. The only ones I've seen that may be valid is "it is what it is" - But I just don't see how changing this rule mid way will mess things up. As I see it, it's more detrimental to the league to NOT change it. Plus one of the things I like so much about NASL is their dedication to fix all the quarks.


I agree entirely. I have seen one valid argument that supports 16th seed, the argument that the NASL players deserve 1st-15th seeds. It is opinion based though and is just as valid the other way.

I guess we will just see what NASL does with the information we have offered.
PantsB
Profile Joined January 2011
United States77 Posts
June 09 2011 21:22 GMT
#179
I think the best option is let the winner pick his opponent. It even adds a bit of drama/storyline.
Rasun
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States787 Posts
June 09 2011 21:30 GMT
#180
Yeah the problem is, you can't seed based on who might be the open winner. You have to seed based on what is going to be for certain. Because the open winner is not yet determined, nor will the open winner have any match history or standing in the NASL, then they are the de facto lowest seed based on the information NASL has that came from the results of the season. Yeah the open winner could be Bomber, but since they don't know who will in fact be the open winner, and based on the fact that Bomber has no current standing with NASL, it is the most unbiased and fair way to seed based on the information that can be taken strictly from the tournament results so far.
"People need to just settle the fuck down!"- Djwheat <3
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