On June 05 2011 23:13 Spartangy wrote: Do you guys know why some pro Zerg players recently, when just beginning the game, build up about 100 minerals instead of producing drones, and then produce drones? It's odd, I believe Tastosis (or was it Day9 and DjWheat?) pointed it out at MLG when IdrA and/or Losira did it, but I don't understand it. Anyone know what was up with that?
I think it has to do with larvae production after the first overlord, having the larvae come out more evenly instead of doing the extractor trick and instantly making 2 drones after the overlord pops, but I'm not sure, doesn't quite make sense.
I would like to know the answer to this too, anyone know?
Did anyone catch the Maka vs SC games? I had a feeling Maka cut SCV production in the openings for both games (maybe to get a faster orbital?). What were the reasons for it?
On June 07 2011 09:14 Probe1 wrote: It seems to me that you're getting a little of everything and you'll be stretched too thin on sentries or stalkers. Too few of either and terran can just ignore your phoenix and rush forward, snipe the collo and then you'll be in quite a bit of trouble.
You will have less stalkers, and phenixes do theid job in this composition, except they don't evaporate to marauders. Just try it bro
150/100 is hardly cheap. If you're going for Colossus and Phoenix, you'll have little to no Stalkers, Sentries, or upgrades for your army.
Stalkers and Phoenixes do almost the exact same DPS to a Viking, except Stalkers only cost 125/50 and actually has lasting relevance against the rest of his army.
Phoenixes don't kill Vikings even close to fast enough to protect your Colossus unless you make a huge number of them, but that means your army is essentially Zealot/Phoenix/Colossus then. All Terran needs to do is kite your Zealots until they're all dead then rush forward and kill your Colossus. If you have no Gateway support, even Marines beat any number of Colossus cost effectively.
If your entire reason for getting Phoenix is that it's "easier to A-move your army now!" well, the Protoss army is already 1A mode as long as you keep your Zealots in front.
On June 07 2011 09:14 Probe1 wrote: It seems to me that you're getting a little of everything and you'll be stretched too thin on sentries or stalkers. Too few of either and terran can just ignore your phoenix and rush forward, snipe the collo and then you'll be in quite a bit of trouble.
You will have less stalkers, and phenixes do theid job in this composition, except they don't evaporate to marauders. Just try it bro
150/100 is hardly cheap. If you're going for Colossus and Phoenix, you'll have little to no Stalkers, Sentries, or upgrades for your army.
Stalkers and Phoenixes do almost the exact same DPS to a Viking, except Stalkers only cost 125/50 and actually has lasting relevance against the rest of his army.
Phoenixes don't kill Vikings even close to fast enough to protect your Colossus unless you make a huge number of them, but that means your army is essentially Zealot/Phoenix/Colossus then. All Terran needs to do is kite your Zealots until they're all dead then rush forward and kill your Colossus. If you have no Gateway support, even Marines beat any number of Colossus cost effectively.
If your entire reason for getting Phoenix is that it's "easier to A-move your army now!" well, the Protoss army is already 1A mode as long as you keep your Zealots in front.
Wow, man are you even playing protoss? I'm ading phenixes to standard colossus composition and they do much much better job as anti air, than pure stalkers because they aren't hit by marauders. Terran doing basic micro with his bio ball and vikings have huge advantage over you if you rely on stalkers to deal with vikings, and you don't have to be Thorzain to execute it. Not to mention, bio ball witiout medivacs (phenix anyone?) is a joke and much easier to deal with.
Phoenixes don't kill Vikings even close to fast enough to protect your Colossus unless you make a huge number of them, but that means your army is essentially Zealot/Phoenix/Colossus
You are talking out of your ass. Please use a strategy before you are trying to say anything about it, because you are far from describing the actual state of it.
I was thinking as I was reading the morrow interview, and as a Protoss player I feel that the Roach needs an upgrade at the hatchery level to, every 10 seconds or so, have its range increased to 5 or 6... This would make it more effective against sentry and also allow it to put some pressure in the early game. Stupid idea?
On June 07 2011 09:14 Probe1 wrote: It seems to me that you're getting a little of everything and you'll be stretched too thin on sentries or stalkers. Too few of either and terran can just ignore your phoenix and rush forward, snipe the collo and then you'll be in quite a bit of trouble.
You will have less stalkers, and phenixes do theid job in this composition, except they don't evaporate to marauders. Just try it bro
150/100 is hardly cheap. If you're going for Colossus and Phoenix, you'll have little to no Stalkers, Sentries, or upgrades for your army.
Stalkers and Phoenixes do almost the exact same DPS to a Viking, except Stalkers only cost 125/50 and actually has lasting relevance against the rest of his army.
Phoenixes don't kill Vikings even close to fast enough to protect your Colossus unless you make a huge number of them, but that means your army is essentially Zealot/Phoenix/Colossus then. All Terran needs to do is kite your Zealots until they're all dead then rush forward and kill your Colossus. If you have no Gateway support, even Marines beat any number of Colossus cost effectively.
If your entire reason for getting Phoenix is that it's "easier to A-move your army now!" well, the Protoss army is already 1A mode as long as you keep your Zealots in front.
Hi Curu What's up. Hey do you have a link to your profile? I'm just trying to vet the information you are spewing here; none of it seems correct whatsoever.
The main purpose of getting pheonixes rather than stalkers has nothing to do with which unit does more damage to vikings. The main purpose of having pheonixes in with your army is to distract the vikings.
Without any air units whatsoever, the vikings can only hit one unit: The collossus. It's a time-based pressure cooker when, as a terran, you are fighting a Protoss army with Collossus. It doesn't matter that you can kill their collosus. It matters how fast. With a handful of pheonixes an a protoss deathball, what happens is that, specifically, during an "a-move attack" (as you so put it), the phoenixes and the vikings actually go at it!
What happens, is that the phoenixes die to the vikings after a short time. However, none of your collosus get touched. So even if the terran is winning the ground game (you have less stalkers, zealots, sentries overall), your collosus always make it to the end of the battle, and wipe out everything with the exception of the vikings.
You said : "Pheonixes don't kill Vikings fast enough to protect your Collosus". Hey dude, listen, please link your account. If you are actually trying to WIN THE AIR WAR with the amount of pheonixes you are building, then you are some sort of a silver league player. In that case, you should be listening and not speaking in any scenario in which you are discussing strategy.
On June 06 2011 13:23 RM_12 wrote: Why aren't top Protoss players using Phenix's PvT?
I recently played PvT when i was behind after his fast expo but i was able to keep colosus alive forever because of phenix in my unit mix, and he couldn't win any engagement, eventually loosing while 1 base up over me ^^. You usually go zealot-sentry-stalker-colosus and tech to templar but if you add 1 stargate and keep making phenix you suddenly win every engagement.
You can kill vikings without suiciding your stalkers to marauder ball, and kill medivacs. Also phenixes attacking vikings allow you to move forward with colossus to deal demage and not die in few viking shots. It's much easier to micro, and terran can't go marines (you have ever growing colossus count) and if they don't transition out of marauder ball you have the ability to add VR's and roflstomp Terran even harder.
Srsly they are not expensive and you don't even need to micro them, just a move and control ground battle with FF while your Phenixes just kill anything above the ground.
So i wonder, what is the biggest weakness of incorporating phenixes into standard chargelot-sentry-stalker-colosus that pro's don't use it?
This is your erroneous assumption, and one of the main reasons players don't incorporate phoenixes into their late-game armies.
The point is to add it in mid game, because they are great in late game composition (200/200) and they allow you to retain your colossus much much easier.
if the terran reacts well enough with 2 starport reactors then all they have to do is take out the colossus quickly before the vikings go down, emp the pheonixes, then they become useless
so basically they'll have marauders left over vs. your phoenixes with no energy
You don;t need energy on phenixes, you have them to only kill vikings and medivacs while making your other units survive ALOT longer (unless you are against tanks, then you need to dodge emp's which with phenix speed is easier than with any other unit)
What happens if the terran does a timing attack with pure bio in the midgame or goes pure bio + ghost in the late game? You won't have the gateway units or the colossi count to deal with it since all your gas will be eaten up in your phoenixes. Phoenix-Colossus compositions work best on maps where you can turtle in your natural and third (e.g. Terminus, Tal'Darim Altar, Scrap Station, etc.) and in situations where you force vikings (colossi before stargate, which is the opposite of your plan).
The issues are how to incorporate phoenixes into your overall gameplan and setting up your opponent to make that viking-heavy army.
(colossi before stargate, which is the opposite of your plan
You misunderstood.
If you see no starport with observer, you won't add stargate. I'm talking about adding phenixes when you already have few colossi. They have short producton time and are not expensive for how usefull they become. If you open with robo and start colossus production relatively early, terran have to go for some timing or add vikings. If he goes for timing, you have units countering his units, if he adds starports and goes for late game you add stargate and gain upper hand in engagements, because it works out extremly well. I encourage everyone to try it and see how you can move forward with entire army without exposing your colossus nor stalkers.
When terran dodges colossi with marauder ball and moves vikings forward you have to move colossi back and get stalkers in range of vikings to snipe them leaving your stalkers in range of marauders while they are out of colossi range. When you add phenixes you can suddenly a-move and still beat this terran composition. It made HUGE difference for me in this MU, that's why i'm suprised it's not commonly used.
It doesn't work like that dude. :/
If you go for fast colossus and he goes for a timing at that point, you won't have "units countering his units". You'll have close to nothing countering his units since the tech will not kick in while you're fighting. Going fast Robo + Bay is a big gas investment that doesn't pay off until the first 2-3 colossi get onto the field. Until then you've sacrificed stalkers and sentries to get the colossi out and are vulnerable to a timing push. Similarly you'll be vulnerable when you switch over to phoenix production as you'll be skimping stalker and sentry production as well. Phoenixes are great against the typical Viking response, but it will lose you the game if you make too many of them. Terran can simply bio-ball you to death after the first big battle. Haven't you wondered why roach-hydra-corruptor is no longer popular?
Plus you have to consider how this fits into macro-management. You cannot support these transitions off of 2 bases. Do you take an early third? Do you feign weakness to make your opponent expand, giving you the time to expand yourself? Are you making a big army geared towards one decisive victory? Would you consider going early stargate to harass, then transitioning into colossi? What maps allow you to do this safely? What maps leave you vulnerable to attack at your weakest moments? How will you deal with these inevitable attacks and minimize your losses? All you're talking about is a unit composition, which definitely works. But you're not accounting for everything before and after it.
On June 05 2011 23:13 Spartangy wrote: Do you guys know why some pro Zerg players recently, when just beginning the game, build up about 100 minerals instead of producing drones, and then produce drones? It's odd, I believe Tastosis (or was it Day9 and DjWheat?) pointed it out at MLG when IdrA and/or Losira did it, but I don't understand it. Anyone know what was up with that?
I think it has to do with larvae production after the first overlord, having the larvae come out more evenly instead of doing the extractor trick and instantly making 2 drones after the overlord pops, but I'm not sure, doesn't quite make sense.
I would like to know the answer to this too, anyone know?
There was a huge discussion in beta about what kind of opening was the most economical, there are basically 3 ways to deal with it:
- Build overlord at 10 and wait for 150 mins then produce 3 drones when the overlord pops. - Build overlord at 10, make an extractor putting you at 9/10, make a drone and cancel the extractor (thus named extractor trick) putting you at 11/10 for a short time, and then making the 2 drones when the overlord pops. - Build overlord at 9, make a drone, and then 2 drones when overlord pops.
The difference between these options is very minimal, 4 minerals at 3 mins mark or something.
The 3rd option is done the most on EU/US server, where the KR server prefers the 2nd option it seems. Some people (like me) don't like the uneven minerals when you do the extractor trick, so I always go 9overlord.
Can you guys spread the word so blizzard fix this when ZEALOTS are EMPED they still have CHARGE but when I EMP STAKERS with blink they CANT blink but ZEALOTS have CHARGE still??~!?!? ANYONE agree with me?
Do you guys know why some pro Zerg players recently, when just beginning the game, build up about 100 minerals instead of producing drones, and then produce drones? It's odd, I believe Tastosis (or was it Day9 and DjWheat?) pointed it out at MLG when IdrA and/or Losira did it, but I don't understand it. Anyone know what was up with that?
I think it has to do with larvae production after the first overlord, having the larvae come out more evenly instead of doing the extractor trick and instantly making 2 drones after the overlord pops, but I'm not sure, doesn't quite make sense.
I would like to know the answer to this too, anyone know?
Exactly what Cajun2001 said. A lot of people, myself included, prefer to make an OL on 9, drone to 10 and then two drones when the overlord pops. You never reach 3 larva (and lose larva birthing time) and you don't have uneven minerals. Its a non starter discussion (again Cajun already explained) because the difference is less than 5 minerals.
I am curious about the potentials of pushing with 3 or 4 immortals around with a couple of with zealots and 3 or 4 sentries off of two gateways, Immortals are stupidly strong against roaches, and with zealots any hydralisks out by that time need to micro away from the zealots while taking shots from the immortals. I am only gold league so any testing I do is tainted by my bad macro and mechanics. I would just like to have your opinions on this possibility.
On June 08 2011 14:26 cekkmt wrote: I am curious about the potentials of pushing with 3 or 4 immortals around with a couple of with zealots and 3 or 4 sentries off of two gateways, Immortals are stupidly strong against roaches, and with zealots any hydralisks out by that time need to micro away from the zealots while taking shots from the immortals. I am only gold league so any testing I do is tainted by my bad macro and mechanics. I would just like to have your opinions on this possibility.
To build 3 or even 4 Immortals you are already dead by that time cuz their build time is simply to high even with Chronoboosts. You have no valid Tech at that time when Roach/Hydra hits the field and your Sentrys and Zealots wouldn't hold a big fight long enough to make your Immortals worth the money. Adding a Robotics Bay and building a Colossi is simply the better option during that time.
My opponents are only diamond but I assure you it would be suicide. Very high cost, their range necessitates them to be towards the front, and Zerg is pushing with a high dps army. If you FF'd with divine intervention and no less this would be viable, however I feel that builds shouldn't be based on a perfect game but their strength tolerates the most amount of mistakes while still being strong enough to win.
On June 05 2011 21:15 Bleak wrote: Does anyone know why Irradiate was removed? I think if Ravens still had that, they would see use. I just don't understand the decision for it. Is it because of the clumping effect being stronger in SC2?
I'd assume so yeah seeing how powerful irradiate vs mutas was - ofc it wouldn't be THAT powerful vs say marines etc. but I can understand why they didn't want it in.
I think it's more of the fact that the average player would have whined ceaselessly about how OP it is, because they wouldn't be able to handle the idea of splitting their mutalisks. I'm pretty sure that's why the reaver isn't there either. In two seconds, your entire mineral line can disappear, and I'd imagine that they didn't want the average player to have to deal with that.
I highly doubt that's why the Reaver got removed seeing as Banelings and blueflame Hellions are in the game. And with Hellions it's so bad you can't even run away your workers towards your army becasue of Hellions' splashdamage in that congaline and the hellions being faster.
Anyways, it's hard to say why some stuff got removed in the game and something added. To me it looks like they just wanted to make sure it wasn't SC1 with updated graphics and engine, so they removed alot of units and spells and added new ones.
That's what it looks like to me anyway.
Basically, they added in as many units as they could that were "really cool and epic" and had no idea how gameplay mechanics would work out. The chief idiot even admitted "making SC2 was such a learning experience for me. There's this thing called game mechanics, and I wanted epic units, and people were telling me, no, mechanics are more important.".
So the game units are pretty epic, seriously, if you think about each of them individually. Banshees from Avatar, Ghosts, Dark Templar, etc.
But the fucking mechanics. suck. I would give anything to see a zealot mine field charge, or vulture harass. Good God....
Shiv I'd check the IdrA fanclub or just search for Idra MLG interview. I know I saw the original video posted in the fanclub a few times.
On June 08 2011 09:43 zayuh206 wrote: Can you guys spread the word so blizzard fix this when ZEALOTS are EMPED they still have CHARGE but when I EMP STAKERS with blink they CANT blink but ZEALOTS have CHARGE still??~!?!? ANYONE agree with me?
As soon as they give Zerg seperate UI buttons for burrow and unburrow so you'll never again unknowingly have a random burrowed roach chillin in your base talking to the sediment.
On June 06 2011 13:23 RM_12 wrote: Why aren't top Protoss players using Phenix's PvT?
I recently played PvT when i was behind after his fast expo but i was able to keep colosus alive forever because of phenix in my unit mix, and he couldn't win any engagement, eventually loosing while 1 base up over me ^^. You usually go zealot-sentry-stalker-colosus and tech to templar but if you add 1 stargate and keep making phenix you suddenly win every engagement.
You can kill vikings without suiciding your stalkers to marauder ball, and kill medivacs. Also phenixes attacking vikings allow you to move forward with colossus to deal demage and not die in few viking shots. It's much easier to micro, and terran can't go marines (you have ever growing colossus count) and if they don't transition out of marauder ball you have the ability to add VR's and roflstomp Terran even harder.
Srsly they are not expensive and you don't even need to micro them, just a move and control ground battle with FF while your Phenixes just kill anything above the ground.
So i wonder, what is the biggest weakness of incorporating phenixes into standard chargelot-sentry-stalker-colosus that pro's don't use it?
This is your erroneous assumption, and one of the main reasons players don't incorporate phoenixes into their late-game armies.
The point is to add it in mid game, because they are great in late game composition (200/200) and they allow you to retain your colossus much much easier.
if the terran reacts well enough with 2 starport reactors then all they have to do is take out the colossus quickly before the vikings go down, emp the pheonixes, then they become useless
so basically they'll have marauders left over vs. your phoenixes with no energy
You don;t need energy on phenixes, you have them to only kill vikings and medivacs while making your other units survive ALOT longer (unless you are against tanks, then you need to dodge emp's which with phenix speed is easier than with any other unit)
What happens if the terran does a timing attack with pure bio in the midgame or goes pure bio + ghost in the late game? You won't have the gateway units or the colossi count to deal with it since all your gas will be eaten up in your phoenixes. Phoenix-Colossus compositions work best on maps where you can turtle in your natural and third (e.g. Terminus, Tal'Darim Altar, Scrap Station, etc.) and in situations where you force vikings (colossi before stargate, which is the opposite of your plan).
The issues are how to incorporate phoenixes into your overall gameplan and setting up your opponent to make that viking-heavy army.
(colossi before stargate, which is the opposite of your plan
You misunderstood.
If you see no starport with observer, you won't add stargate. I'm talking about adding phenixes when you already have few colossi. They have short producton time and are not expensive for how usefull they become. If you open with robo and start colossus production relatively early, terran have to go for some timing or add vikings. If he goes for timing, you have units countering his units, if he adds starports and goes for late game you add stargate and gain upper hand in engagements, because it works out extremly well. I encourage everyone to try it and see how you can move forward with entire army without exposing your colossus nor stalkers.
When terran dodges colossi with marauder ball and moves vikings forward you have to move colossi back and get stalkers in range of vikings to snipe them leaving your stalkers in range of marauders while they are out of colossi range. When you add phenixes you can suddenly a-move and still beat this terran composition. It made HUGE difference for me in this MU, that's why i'm suprised it's not commonly used.
It doesn't work like that dude. :/
It's hard to believe you when my experience confirms it works exactly like that in every game i executed it properly.
If you go for fast colossus and he goes for a timing at that point, you won't have "units countering his units". You'll have close to nothing countering his units since the tech will not kick in while you're fighting. Going fast Robo + Bay is a big gas investment that doesn't pay off until the first 2-3 colossi get onto the field. Until then you've sacrificed stalkers and sentries to get the colossi out and are vulnerable to a timing push.
Firs of all, this has nothing to do with phenixes. Secondly, this is why you scout. You see 1 base timing - you get more units and delay your tech, i'm not going to talk about aspects that are obvious and irrelevant for the discussion.
Similarly you'll be vulnerable when you switch over to phoenix production as you'll be skimping stalker and sentry production as well
adding one stargate is not a big investment and you do it when you already have colossi on the field and 2+ fully saturated bases.
Phoenixes are great against the typical Viking response, but it will lose you the game if you make too many of them.
That's why you don't make too many of them? Why would you say that strategy is bad because you can do it wrong? The point of any strategy is to do it correctly, lol.
Terran can simply bio-ball you to death after the first big battle.
Have you forgot the part when you get colossus before adding phenixes?
Plus you have to consider how this fits into macro-management.
It fits very well, due to balanced mineral/gas cost in relation to rest of your army and short production time of phenixes.
You cannot support these transitions off of 2 bases. Do you take an early third? Do you feign weakness to make your opponent expand, giving you the time to expand yourself? Are you making a big army geared towards one decisive victory?
You can be behind in bases and sit longer on your 2nd because you will have great colossus retention unless you missmicro badly. And you will gradually overcome terran army untill he transitions to fucking mech, or dies.
Would you consider going early stargate to harass, then transitioning into colossi?
Do you know how many phenixes it takes to kill one marauder in 1 lift? Wouldn't go stargate before colossi.
What maps allow you to do this safely?
Any map that you feel comfortable with gateway/colossi play.
What maps leave you vulnerable to attack at your weakest moments?
In close positions on meta and similar, you have to get more gateways and play safe, because of terran timings being strongest there, so you'll do it after taking third if he isn't already dead to usual +2 timing with colossi.
How will you deal with these inevitable attacks and minimize your losses?
Before phenixes you rely on FF's and stay defensive (It's ok if he takes faster third than you, and i believe this is pretty much the only time that's not terrible for Protoss)
But you're not accounting for everything before and after it.
I do, i just didn't explain what i thought was obvious, because before adding 1 stargate you are doing standard build.
I have about 20 or perhaps even more off days this summer, so I've been thinking to practice hard. I'm a platinum Terran wanting to get to Masters. What should I focus on while practicing (instead of playing a lot) to achieve this goal?
EPT
