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On June 20 2011 11:09 Dusty wrote:
So with all this HotS reveal stuff that happened recently, are they going to add clan functionality once and for all? WoW had this at launch with guilds, WC3 TFT (idk about RoC) had clans and that came out in '03 so yeah..
Not sure they'll add that. There's so many things that they need to add besides that.
With WoW, having guilds was a pretty integral part of the game considering the game required others to help you get certain things. Starcraft 2 isn't like that at all.
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What is the typical learning curve for this game? I just got this game after watching pro gameplay for a while so I know general strategy but I don't have the mechanics. I didnt expect to dominate immediately but I am curious what is normal. I enjoy the game a lot but I get annoyed when I let my money get high in the midgame as zerg.
Btw, I have no prior RTS experience, so consider that.
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On June 20 2011 11:51 nDefined wrote:
What is the typical learning curve for this game? I just got this game after watching pro gameplay for a while so I know general strategy but I don't have the mechanics. I didnt expect to dominate immediately but I am curious what is normal. I enjoy the game a lot but I get annoyed when I let my money get high in the midgame as zerg.
Btw, I have no prior RTS experience, so consider that.
try and watch your replays and notice the point where your money starts to get high, and see what your currently doing, if its a battle then its more acceptable (because your focusing on it) if your not doing anything, ask yourself, what could you have done to keep your money low, try taking another expo, upgrades, marco hatcherys, as zerg your minerals can pile up as you tend to need alot of gas mid-late game.
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Now when watching tournament games I get this feeling.. KR players have often an spesific timing attack or cheesy push which aims for sure kill at certain time. I think Eu and US players aim for good "normal" macro game :| Is this why we seem to lose to koreans?
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On June 20 2011 11:51 nDefined wrote:
What is the typical learning curve for this game? I just got this game after watching pro gameplay for a while so I know general strategy but I don't have the mechanics. I didnt expect to dominate immediately but I am curious what is normal. I enjoy the game a lot but I get annoyed when I let my money get high in the midgame as zerg.
Btw, I have no prior RTS experience, so consider that.
You really don't know strategy. The lesson is humility. Every tournament a pro is embarrassed somewhere somehow by overconfidence and you or I will be no different.
Even if it sounds like marauders counter stalkers and zealots counter marauders there is an incredible amount of nuance that makes what should be an obvious counter a terrible choice.
Watching starcraft is like seeing a opera with the sound off (at times). You have to learn not what units to make, but why you make them.
As far as a learning curve, it is different for everyone. Some people reach ceilings. Some people become amateurs then professionals. I'm stuck at the top of platinum. Your learning curve will depend on your devotion to improvement. I rely on tactical intelligence and insane timings rather than studying my replays and improving. While we can show you everything it will be up to you whether you want Master or not.
If you think I'm full of crap then build a macro hatch around 8-10 minutes and take a third by 12-15. You're problem is you're trying to produce off two hatcheries and even if you have perfect inject/overlord timings it is downright hard for anyone to spend all of your income off two hatcheries if you've saturated both mineral lines.
gl hf!
On June 20 2011 13:05 FinBenton wrote:
Now when watching tournament games I get this feeling.. KR players have often an spesific timing attack or cheesy push which aims for sure kill at certain time. I think Eu and US players aim for good "normal" macro game :| Is this why we seem to lose to koreans?
I think you're confusing macro with turtling. KR server is known for being much more aggressive than other servers and I don't think it's considered cheese to bring workers or do hard timing attacks. You want your opponent dead, whether it be with zealots or a mothership; at four minutes or forty.
I see cheese as high risk/reward strats that require your opponent not to scout it or abusive ... sorry for a second there my zerg QQ almost got the best of me.
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I view cheese as any type/style or build of playing that has no follow up strategy or thought process past the initial couple of attacks.
Like a 6 pool all-in I consider cheese because there is no mid/late game strategy if the all-in fails. Any particular type of build or play that is done in the early early game that if it failed would almost guarantee a loss in the meta game in my opinion is cheese. Most people I run into on the ladder when they do a 6pool/10pool, mass marine all-in or protoss' various cheeses, and it fails they just leave the game. Those are what I consider cheese.
It takes skill to go into a macro/micro meta game, it doesn't take skill to just simply not make workers and drop a spawning pool as soon as you get 200 minerals then all-in everything.
That's just my views on cheese though.
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If you do enough damage you can follow up with a normal mid-late game. Is every timing attack a cheese?
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It's a contentious debate. Everyone see's cheese in their own way. I once went a week straight with a friend in 2s double 8 pooling with a specific mindset to cripple them early so the midgame would be easier. I've found the golden number for a cheese pool is killing 5 workers.
We had a build order and transition into mid game and there was a reason he shared control and I did all the micro with the lings. He sucked at micro and it takes snap decision making for it to pay off.
Even in 1s if someone 6 pools me I just lol. It takes a lot of work to make some cheeses work. Though cannon rushing like a BOSS just takes balls :D
Cheese≠timing attack though.
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can moon beat HUK? I bit moon will win
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time diffrences : one hour ,hehe
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I don't think that cheese exists in the sense that the real game is a macro game. Just because the game does offer tier 3 units they don't need to appear in every game. If a sixpool offers a good reward-to-risk ratio, it is a good strategy.
The typical pro gamer who is confident with his skill will probably seek a long game ("macro game".) If he however is beaten by a "cheese", he lost rightly so.
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On June 19 2011 08:47 Dariusz wrote:
Why is nearly everyone saying "no gg - no skill" in wrong context? It's originated from White-ra stream when he was explaining how with every lost game you learn something and become better thus "no gg" - stands for "no lost games". How is typing gg in any way related to skill? This doesn't make any sense in wrong context... Because it refers to the mindset. If you type gg after a loss game, you show respect for your opponent and blame yourself for the loss. So you are open-minded to actually learn from the game.
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Don't do drugs or double post kids.
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Idea: What if in addition to your starting worker building and initial workers, each race started with a new race-specific scouting unit that, if used with a reasonable amount of skill, could provide guaranteed scouting up through the point where the other scouting options for your race generally become available (scan/observer/overseer). Each player only gets his one scouting unit at the beginning of the game, and cannot make more -- they're just intended to provide effective early-game scouting to avoid coin-flip situations and blind build-order losses.
For example, say you're playing a random on TDE who spawns as zerg and decides to 6-pool. Normally it's a coin-flip if you scout him in time to prepare unless you send an initial worker to scout. However, with the dedicated scouting unit, you would be able to scout the 6-pool early enough to hold it off.
These scout units would need some special limitations so that they can only function for scouting as well as some special abilities so that their scouting cannot be denied when they are used with reasonable skill. So for example you wouldn't want the scouting units to be able to provide high-ground visibility for blink stalkers or mess up the pathing of enemy units or anything like that. But you would want the scouting unit to have a 100% chance (barring stupid mistakes) of making it into your opponent's base regardless of wall-off and staying there for the first 5-6 minutes of the game (or whatever time period is reasonable).
I don't really have a fully fleshed-out idea yet, but what about this concept in general?
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On June 20 2011 13:05 FinBenton wrote:
Now when watching tournament games I get this feeling.. KR players have often an spesific timing attack or cheesy push which aims for sure kill at certain time. I think Eu and US players aim for good "normal" macro game :| Is this why we seem to lose to koreans?
It's because Koreans understand the game better and have a winning mindset. A lot of EU and most NA players except IdrA (who was a zerg in Korea who must have seen every timing push possible) only have a vague concept of timings. They'll see a person go nexus first and go "hmm, a macro game, better take additional bases and upgrade even if I'm slightly behind and try to even it out in the mid or late game" whereas the Koreans see it as "well, if I two rax and bring some workers I've pretty much given myself a huge advantage and will almost certainly win". Koreans play to win, foreigners play to play.
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On June 21 2011 00:21 galivet wrote:
I don't really have a fully fleshed-out idea yet, but what about this concept in general? I don't like it because it makes the game more complex. One normally can defend a sixpool blindly. If you get caught by it, you were too greedy.
Scouting is a complex issue (where to send the first probes / Overlords) and this is part of the fun, I think.
Since I play zerg I know how hard it is to scout a Terran who usually walls himself in. I rely on scouting the front and the timing when (and if at all) he expands before I can send a speedlord or overseer into his base. But it would be too easy if I had guaranteed scouting for 5 or 6 minutes.
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General zerg question: In a 'normal' game, what are the expected Lair / Hive timings? I realize this can vary WILDLY depending on situations, but let's say you hatch first and no early pressure is really coming and you're not RUSHING for anything. Give or take a couple minutes / relative to what amount of food, when should I be taking lair?
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Hi guys- I want to know if you all think I'm a bad person or awesome after hearing this ladder story:
I was playing a TvT on the ladder in the Master league. My opponent was slightly favored. I noticed that my opponent walled off his ramp, so I decided that I would just play the regular heavy Marine/Tank/Viking style, and try to eventually siege his ramp. My opponent tried a Hellion drop and a Banshee which I was prepared for. I decided to push out, and Sieged right outside his base (he didn't expand yet). My opponent also went for the standard Terran army, but I had slightly more since I didn't try a drop or a Banshee. I set up a few turrets as well to deal with possible Banshees. I used Raven PDD for mini Viking battles, and contained my opponent.
So my opponent starts complaining, and after a few lines starts saying how bad I played, and how terrible of a player I am, and he keeps going on and on and on. The only thing I say after a while is that he can still win (I wanted him to shut up), which I honestly believed. He eventually leaves much later, and messages me after the game several times. He says he hopes to play me again, and sure enough, we get matched up again.
He starts talking from the beginning.. and eventually I realized that I lost the game. He outplayed me that game, just like I outplayed him on the first. For his terrible, terrible behavior of ruining my gameplay experience, I decided to try the "pause glitch" for the first time, and I was so happy that it actually worked. We both got losses and each lost 0 points. I didn't care about my own stats, but it felt so good taking away a win from a such an annoying player.
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On June 20 2011 13:05 FinBenton wrote:
Now when watching tournament games I get this feeling.. KR players have often an spesific timing attack or cheesy push which aims for sure kill at certain time. I think Eu and US players aim for good "normal" macro game :| Is this why we seem to lose to koreans?
Koreans take more risks to win, Europeans play more straight-up. This is the main thing seperating them, since Koreans take more risks, overall they are more successful to a degree.
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EPT
