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On June 14 2011 20:02 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 19:48 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 14 2011 19:43 Yaotzin wrote:On June 14 2011 11:32 Angra wrote:On June 13 2011 22:47 Yaotzin wrote:On May 30 2011 04:52 Cloak wrote:
The cons is that it will upset balance. So, I think the best way to address that is to wait for the inevitable upset in balance (Heart of the Swarm). That'd be the perfect opportunity to make big changes for the better. The con is that it's annoying as hell to have your units be retarded like BW. Yes, it makes some pretty screenshots. When you're actually using it though, it sucks. People actually *want* units to be as stupid as dragoons? How does making units stay further away from each other have absolutely anything to do with Dragoon AI? Regardless, I'd trade Dragoon AI for the awful way SC2 units work right now any day. Dragoons were retarded because they tried to avoid each other, while being really fat so they often couldn't. They would act much like stalkers with SC2's AI. I can't even comprehend how anyone can think SC2 units work in an "awful" way. Their AI is excellent. They actually do what you ask them to, unlike BW units. Making collision boxes bigger would be OK, that would "de-ball" the game some without screwing up the AI, but I'm very very opposed to any change to archaic shitty BW AI. Anyway it's moot: Blizzard have said they consider BW AI to be terrible and won't be using it. I think I've explained 1 million times over that dynamic pathing has nothing to do with BW AI. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132171 Your post says that BW's "dynamic unit movement" is merely a side effect from it's poor (well, understandably primitive) AI, yes? How is one supposed to achieve this effect while keeping SC2's far superior AI?
BW can't use dynamic pathing because it uses A*. Its collision avoidance is restricted by the fact that waypoints get blocked by other units.
SC2 doesn't have this restriction because its collision avoidance is not affected by waypoints, you simply won't get dragoon AI issues, or any of the "bad pathing" problems you had in BW. You just need to adjust the algorithm so they don't stay bunched together and flock differently.
Go look at Company of Heroes, they have perfect pathing for infantry, while not clumping together.
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I approve this by 100% ...
I would even pay 16€ a month for sc2 if they would implent this
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I approve this stuff as well.
Unnatural clumping and weird pathing are not something for the future, they belong in the past! Terrans got radio's to phone each other, zerg don't want to talk, they just listen, and protoss can invade each others mind from a distance! So why do they need to stand next to each other for hugs!
Approve this post everyone! Do it for a better world where all races can shout their messages across the world, an open world where everyone can be heard, where noone needs to huddle in a clump so that the individual won't be recognized anymore. For a better world where the small zergling is not pushed around by his big mean ultralisk brother! For a better world where high templars can walk around without the fear of being too close to their friends, and accidentially becoming an archon!
Everyone petition, for better pathing!
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i remembered i tried out the sc:bw on the sc2 engine, and the zerglings spread themselves out and even run like they did in bw, so it is possible and probably pretty easy to implement this into the game. the problem is not so much if its possible, but that blizzard is stubborn and probably wont do this, for whatever their reasons. i think it would be great, making it a little easier to micro singular units but also maybe key decisions in game where to spread or clump as the OP was correct with units will stay spread when they are still but the second you move them they clump up so fast. the only thing i can think of to create somewhat of a spread is to patrol move your army, which if blizzard keeps it the way it is, im sure people will come up with creative ways to spread there units when moving.
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I think this would be the single greatest change they could implement in HotS to be honest. I'd love to see this. Is there a thread about this on the battle.net forums?
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this makes a lot of sense actually
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This thread makes me sad 
Because this change will never happen. Not now, not with HotS, not with LotV. And worst of all, we are completely at blizzards mercy in regards to this game. Unlike BW, or hell even WC3, They have complete control on how the game is played thanks to not having Lan or another option for a Ladder system...
Personal, I don't know if its the pathing, or units, or ratio of workers to army, or how little expos are needed for a 200/200 army (hint: I think its all of the above), but I am losing intrigue in SC2. The game just does not feel right. I would feel this way even if I had not played BW.
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"I wish it was like broodwar; because then the gameplay would be more like broodwar in this element"
"I liked the pacing and unit movement in broodwar and the more fluid movement in sc2 seems alien to me and I dislike it, therefore we should change it."
I'm sorry but this is honestly how I read your OP, despite not referencing BW much it really seems to me that you just don't like it because it is different.
I have never had any issue with telling what units were what or what they were doing; the game is designed to be faster-paced; splash units are strong but the game is balanced around that atm (although they still seem to be playing with infestors).
The only thing that really bothered me was that sometimes units would get stuck in a clump and go with it even if you didnt want them to (they weren't ordered to move); I've had my unsieged tanks run along with my marines before for instance. This concern isn't even mentioned in your OP.
Why is this good for e-sports, unless you propose that anything like BW in anyway is good for esports because BW itself is/was? Or maybe longer games = better for esports for some reason?
I don't want to go back to 1990s unit pathing. Hell even the pathing in HoN gets on my nerves sometimes.
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I would love to see this. Unfortunately, Blizzard cares more about casual gamers than the pro scene. And if they changed the unit "balling" at all, it might make it a smidgen harder for casual gamers to adjust.
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@StarMoon
Pathing and spacing is different.
It's good for esports because you can see things easier and the battles themselves look better; it's more realistic because it's waves of individual units fighting each other, rather than a ball vs a ball. This way you sometimes may even need to scroll a bit to manage the battle, rather than just stare at the center of your screen. This makes the scale of battles seem longer. Also, battles being too short can be a problem because, well, things happen to fast to take in. And spectators would probably like to know what is going on clearly.
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Blizzard's reply to this request is probably to zoom the camera in more and not let you zoom it out further.
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On June 15 2011 15:27 Nevuk wrote:
Blizzard's reply to this request is probably to zoom the camera in more and not let you zoom it out further.
rofl. i hope blizzard at least takes a look at this and considers it. it would add so much depth to the game!
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Blizzard has stated many times that SC2 is meant to be a different game. Any comparison to BW to them is meaningless... People arguing that SC2 should be more like BW is not going to get through to Blizzard designers
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On June 15 2011 13:50 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
@StarMoon
Pathing and spacing is different.
It's good for esports because you can see things easier and the battles themselves look better; it's more realistic because it's waves of individual units fighting each other, rather than a ball vs a ball. This way you sometimes may even need to scroll a bit to manage the battle, rather than just stare at the center of your screen. This makes the scale of battles seem longer. Also, battles being too short can be a problem because, well, things happen to fast to take in. And spectators would probably like to know what is going on clearly.
i didn't play BW, but recently i have seen the BW streams, and the battles are really entertaining.
a couple of sprites with bad resolution show a lot better at fight, than the pseudo battles in 2 secs where a ball army obliterate another ball army.
i see dustin browder like a threat to the development of e-sports SC2 scene.
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On June 15 2011 15:37 darkcloud8282 wrote:
Blizzard has stated many times that SC2 is meant to be a different game. Any comparison to BW to them is meaningless... People arguing that SC2 should be more like BW is not going to get through to Blizzard designers
It still is a stupid declaration though, because if SC2 was *truly different* there wouldnt be Marines and Zealots and Zerglings with comparable stats and so on and they would have put SC2 in a drastically different time so they could explain the absence of these units for a consistent lore.
In any game which "seems realistic" (FPS shooters like Battlefield 2 for example) you kinda "have to" implement physics which are similar to the real life physics. Implementing "bouncy physics" (like walking on the moon) wouldnt make the game feel "natural". For Starcraft the basis for this "realism" is the Brood War environment, because it had 10+ years to settle in and feels "natural" now. Thus Archons, Siege Tanks, Zerglings, ... dont feel that natural and are the reason why people want SC2 to feel more like BW. Many of the "nifty new basic mechanics" are the reason why so many adjustments to the units are required to balance the game and the "tight unit movement" is one of them. Changing them to an acceptable level would be the wise choice to make and since there are still two expansions to come out there is still time to do it.
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Browder's answer to this in the Sen interviews would make a politician proud:
"Yes but no. You are right but we didn't make a mistake. We think SC2's pathing is fine but we are going to do something about it. Not what you are suggesting because we didn't make a mistake. Something else. You'll see."
It's a sad thing to say but if a modded melee map implements this and the dozen or so changes the community has unanimously been requesting since launch, I'm not looking back.
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That's kinda cool, but it will make some units to become useless.
Like colossus : it'll be able to hit only one, maybe 2 units, nearly the same for tanks. But it will drastically increase the effectivness of banelings, 'cause it'll be easier to send them in the middle of the other army, so they will splash more units.
This change would force huge balancing patch, I think it's the major problem.
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On June 15 2011 19:30 Sueco wrote:
Browder's answer to this in the Sen interviews would make a politician proud:
"Yes but no. You are right but we didn't make a mistake. We think SC2's pathing is fine but we are going to do something about it. Not what you are suggesting because we didn't make a mistake. Something else. You'll see."
It's a sad thing to say but if a modded melee map implements this and the dozen or so changes the community has unanimously been requesting since launch, I'm not looking back.
For all the people accusing Blizzard of not knowing how to design a good game, so many of the same people are being damn clueless about game design. Sen honestly might as well have asked "will you please redesign SC2 from the ground up?" Changing the way units move would only be the beginning, then you have to change nearly every unit, spell, map, and perhaps even build times, etc. Throw all the balance testing that was done during beta into the trash. Throw all the balance tweaks after release into the trash. Throw all the work the pro scene has done to learn the game into the trash. Start it all from the beginning, that is exactly what this would take.
So it's nice that Blizzard might have something up their sleeve in terms of pathing, but it is also extremely foolish to expect a "better" answer from them. If they actually did listen to the whims of some of you guys, it would completely destroy the game.
At some point people are going to have to realize that making SC2 more and more like BW is not what the game needs to be successful in esports, and is not good for the game. Quite the opposite - it would be terrible for the game, the less drastic the changes are, the better off it will be. Because it is already very successful as an esport, and outside of Korea far more people enjoy watching SC2 than BW and that is fact.
Once you look past the relative differences between BW and SC2, the one thing BW had that was vital to it's success was stability and that Blizzard left it well enough alone.
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On June 16 2011 01:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
For all the people accusing Blizzard of not knowing how to design a good game, so many of the same people are being damn clueless about game design. Sen honestly might as well have asked "will you please redesign SC2 from the ground up?" Changing the way units move would only be the beginning, then you have to change nearly every unit, spell, map, and perhaps even build times, etc. Throw all the balance testing that was done during beta into the trash. Throw all the balance tweaks after release into the trash. Throw all the work the pro scene has done to learn the game into the trash. Start it all from the beginning, that is exactly what this would take.
Blizzard certainly knows how to design a good game, but that doesn't mean they get everything perfect out of the starting gates. It also certainly would be a monumental change, but that's why people are recommending it for Heart of the Swarm. All those things you listed (balance tweaks, pro scene, etc.) are going to happen anyway once the expansion comes out, as players adjust to added/adjusted/removed units, new maps, etc. People will have to re-learn the game at the pro level, and Blizzard will almost guaranteed have to come out with new patches to balance these changes.
Given this reality, it would be better to also fix army clumping while you're at it. Better to do it sooner than later if you're going to do it at all. Either that or leave things as they are and let Blizzard continue to nerf AoE into the ground and have the community constantly complain about AoE units like the colossus. If we're talking about e-sports, I think the latter option shouldn't be an option at all.
On June 16 2011 01:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
So it's nice that Blizzard might have something up their sleeve in terms of pathing, but it is also extremely foolish to expect a "better" answer from them. If they actually did listen to the whims of some of you guys, it would completely destroy the game.
This is a baseless and ridiculous statement. Blizzard's done a lot of listening to the community and pro players, and have even implemented some popular suggestions either in the form of features or balance changes.
On June 16 2011 01:35 Treemonkeys wrote:
At some point people are going to have to realize that making SC2 more and more like BW is not what the game needs to be successful in esports, and is not good for the game. Quite the opposite - it would be terrible for the game, the less drastic the changes are, the better off it will be. Because it is already very successful as an esport, and outside of Korea far more people enjoy watching SC2 than BW and that is fact.
Once you look past the relative differences between BW and SC2, the one thing BW had that was vital to it's success was stability and that Blizzard left it well enough alone.
People aren't just asking to "make SC2 more and more like BW". There have been a number of comparisons to other games regarding army formations and pathing: SC:BW, WC3, Company of Heroes, etc. These games are being used as examples of what people want to see in terms of how armies move as a group.
One final note on your bit about stability:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patches_1.01-1.07
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patch_1.08
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Patches_1.09-1.15
A lot of balance changes and bug fixes for StarCraft in a 1-year time span after release, followed by additional balance changes over years. Check out patch 1.11b, released in 2004:
Fixed a bug that allowed SCV's to heal Marines.
O_O! Uh....
I'd also like to note that StarCraft 2 is still within its first year of being on the market. This game is new, treat it like a new game instead of comparing it to to the same level of a game that was already patched and balanced over the course of years, with stability only coming many years afterward.
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This would decrease the skill cap imo. Because the way things are now players have to split the units themselves, which gives the potential of very fun micro games. Just take the game where we saw real marinesplitting in the GSL (MKP vs some zerg) - that was darn awesome to watch. And as the players continues to develop we'll see more and more of this. Escpecially in TvT you'll see that players have become alot better at avoiding splash damage, which makes the games more fun to play/watch.
Buttomline, keep it as it is.
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EPT
