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On May 18 2011 01:27 EZmark wrote:
Are you guys even reading what you are writing...
People are saying it isnt realisitic that units are clumped up well moving... well there arent to many realisitic aspects of SC2...
You all want to game to be harder and more dynamic and require that extra little something at the highest level... which we have. Unit control ie splitting, spreading etc etc is an important part of the game... a bad player who doesnt split his marines when infestors or banelings are out will lose... nuff said. Now with this proposed fix no splitting is required LOL my units move spread out... what would be the point in that ? Are we trying to make the game easier ?
No, the point is that this could facilitate the game changing towards more spread out forms of combat, and less of the 'two armies clashing into each other, deciding the game in three seconds' which rots down the spectator experience and occurs extremely frequently even at the highest levels of play.
Huge armies clashing into each other is of course exciting, but it becomes boring when every unit is clumped together and the fight is incredibly short -- giving the players no chance but to GG if their army is not the remaining one. The unit clumping is one reason there are many games that are just one sided and one-dimensional.
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Somebody really needs to release the code for this pathfinding assuming that it was actually implemented through Galaxy Editor.
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This would be so awesome. I really think it would help the game a lot. Possible PTR change?
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This is actually what separates BW and SC2. I would totally uninstall BW if Blizzard implement this to SC2.
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it would certainly look much better, but the clumping also requires intense micro, because you always have to split up your units to avoid splash damage. Look at the pro players in GSL, they split up their units beatifully. E.g: Marines vs Siege Tanks, anything vs. Fungal Growth or Psistorm, managing your colossi not to take splash from enemy colossi etc. etc.
But not-clumped units look much better, and of course some things get easier due to clumping up. Zerglings become much stronger when the units are more spread out, or melee units in general.
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Wow, I mean it was always in my mind, but seeing that change is crazy. The advantages are so obvious, that I cant believe it isnt like that in the game. Im very sad, cuz I believe no matter what... Blizzard wouldnt implement that.
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Mi mind is blown... SC2's more "efficient" pathing has a huge distortion on the game and I never suspected it. Can anyone make a custom map where we can see this working for ourselves?
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On May 18 2011 01:27 EZmark wrote:
Are you guys even reading what you are writing...
People are saying it isnt realisitic that units are clumped up well moving... well there arent to many realisitic aspects of SC2...
You all want to game to be harder and more dynamic and require that extra little something at the highest level... which we have. Unit control ie splitting, spreading etc etc is an important part of the game... a bad player who doesnt split his marines when infestors or banelings are out will lose... nuff said. Now with this proposed fix no splitting is required LOL my units move spread out... what would be the point in that ? Are we trying to make the game easier ?
With split units flanking and positioning would be much much more important, as well as actually having some thought behind where you focus your AOE. With clumping, you can throw a storm or fungal just about anywhere in an army and be sure you're being efficient with it. You also have to have better focus on where your units are and what they're doing, since there's a bigger tendency to have stray units when they spread out than if clumped together.
All in all, the game would not be made easier. Instead you'd have to think more about what you're doing with your army, angle of attack, which units to focus down (which would be far easier to see btw) and how to distribute spells/AOE.
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no. splitting bioballs, hts, ghosts and etc. are extremely game-changing micro 'features'. removing any of them would make the game easier. when flash jumps over, you'll see that kind of movement anyway 
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On May 18 2011 01:41 ribboo wrote:no. splitting bioballs, hts, ghosts and etc. are extremely game-changing micro 'features'. removing any of them would make the game easier. when flash jumps over, you'll see that kind of movement anyway
re balance the game perhaps? This would make sc 2 not seem like ball vs ball every single game.
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Well, it would only be a good change if the game would be completely rebalanced. Protoss would suck major ass if their aoe spells could not be used to a great effect f.ex. If blizzard would agree to rebalance everything, yes. But since they won't do that ever, no.
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On May 18 2011 01:06 Yaotzin wrote:
Why do people say clumping is "unrealistic"? Any army tries to be compact...
Clumping is unnatural because splash / area attacks can kill more easily. Sadly Blizzard kept clumping units and had to nerf area attacks like Siege Tanks and Psi Storm. Sadly this makes these two attacks less awesome than they should be. All in all its a bad tradeoff ...
On May 18 2011 01:42 Barrin wrote:
Honestly, if this doesn't get fixed by blizzard, then in a matter of a few years I expect someone to just make their own "mod" for this. Eventually, everyone would only play the game with the mod (if it was done properly). Then Blizzard would be forced to follow suit.
You heard it here first.
Wont really become popular because the ladder is still under the domination of Blizzard. Even if something like this would get popular in some circles the tournaments would still run with the "Blizzard mod of perfection".
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I don't think the problem comes from units pushing each other , in his sc2bw mod Maverck disabled the "push" feature and units are still able to clump just as well.
According to him the way bw unit move in group is a consequence of the 8 direction only movement , and the pathing , something that is really hard to make in the sc2 engine.
I wonder , did the author actually implemented a spread mechanicthat looks like bw? If it's the case if think it would be extremely interesting for the sc2bw mod to implement it. Can you have more information? ( i hope the author will read my post , but seing how big the thread is I'm not so hopeful .. )
Thanks for the translation anyway!
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On May 18 2011 01:42 Barrin wrote:
Honestly, if this doesn't get fixed by blizzard, then in a matter of a few years I expect someone to just make their own "mod" for this. Eventually, everyone would only play the game with the mod (if it was done properly). Then Blizzard would be forced to follow suit.
You heard it here first.
may that day come sooner than you predicted..seriously can a mapmaker out there start making maps with this and rebalancing it? ICCup this is your chance to take back the spotlight!
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Netherlands45349 Posts
This would be amazing but would mean a complete overhaul of the game in terms of balance, it would be a totally different game almost, and I seriously doubt Blizzard would therefore ever implement it, it would be cool too.
Also, non/clumping also makes Melee units more powerfull due to increased surface area.
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On May 18 2011 01:41 ribboo wrote:no. splitting bioballs, hts, ghosts and etc. are extremely game-changing micro 'features'. removing any of them would make the game easier. when flash jumps over, you'll see that kind of movement anyway
Actually if anything it makes the game tougher to play (especially for terrans). Bioball dps would drop dramatically and siege tanks would do next to no splash damage. Personally I think its a good change but I absolutely agree that there is a 0% chance that blizzard will implement this because it will simply be too game changing. Mostly for people who did not play brood war but like watching/playing this game. They do have to cater to the casual community as well.
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I dunno I think I like the original clumping better, yeah the screenshots look better but it seems like that would just artificially slow the game down in a way that would be annoying. Also it would take away from some of the splitting and micro that does happen and I think it is really entertaining to watch.
Like if you see a a good ZvT game, the terran army will already look like that kinda, thought not in motion so much - which I like because it makes them vulnerable when moving, but they can still split/spread if they are fast enough.
So I'm not convinced that this would just automatically make the game better, though I might like it if I saw the finished product, but the biggest problem with this is just how much of a drastic change it is to the game. All balancing would have to be thrown out the window going all the way back to beta, aoe would have to be redone, range and melee would have to be retweaked, all the upheaval caused by the existing balance changes would just be a big waste of time. I don't think the community would survive a change this big, maybe if they made it part of HOTS.
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I've always preferred dynamic unit movement because it feels more natural, I also hate it when my stalkers get in front of my zealots and I'm stuck having to move my zealots in front of my stalkers, who push my stalkers further forward and if I'm close to my enemy's siege line I can sometimes lose a stalker or two, it's annoying. ;( also, dynamic unit movements make your army look more intimidating
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EPT
