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On February 19 2013 01:38 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 01:34 Technique wrote:On February 19 2013 00:10 Plansix wrote:On February 18 2013 18:05 FreudianTrip wrote:On February 18 2013 17:55 Frosthaze wrote:I really like the show and the hosts, however during the latest episode I felt like why are they talking about "koreans not beeing marketable" yet again. Why are they even talking about marketing? Obviously it's important that the teams earns money, but quite frankly it's not that interesting listening to. On the other hand, in these are turbulent times, teams are disbanding left and right. Talking about marketing is not completely irrelevant, but I think I got fed up listening to the whole thing during the episode which basically covered slasher tweeting announcements. I just want to listen to clever guys talking about starcraft, tournaments etc. My two cents.  It's Inside the EG. Why would they give a shit about anything BUT marketing? Winning doesn't get you a raise. At my job, we compete against other lawyers and law firms at hearings and trials. Winning those cases is only slightly more important than getting paid for those cases. It doesn’t matter how good of an attorney they are, if they can’t the parts of the job that make sure I can bill out their case, they are worthless to the firm even if they win 100% of their cases. The same applies to EG and anyone who makes the argument that winning is more important is simply naïve or a fool. Winning does not buy plane tickets to events or pay for their health insurance. It's a competitive game. And to constantly say the Koreans got no ''charisma'' or are not ''marketable'' which imo both are completely not true... but either way... by keeping that thinking alive (hence why they repeat it so much) the non Koreans (who really can't compete ingame) stay relevant. damn, you must have been a pretty sad panda when you realized that the world isn't going down on the 21th December 2012. 
Nothing wrong with being realistic bro.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged.
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On February 19 2013 01:34 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 00:10 Plansix wrote:On February 18 2013 18:05 FreudianTrip wrote:On February 18 2013 17:55 Frosthaze wrote:I really like the show and the hosts, however during the latest episode I felt like why are they talking about "koreans not beeing marketable" yet again. Why are they even talking about marketing? Obviously it's important that the teams earns money, but quite frankly it's not that interesting listening to. On the other hand, in these are turbulent times, teams are disbanding left and right. Talking about marketing is not completely irrelevant, but I think I got fed up listening to the whole thing during the episode which basically covered slasher tweeting announcements. I just want to listen to clever guys talking about starcraft, tournaments etc. My two cents. It's Inside the EG. Why would they give a shit about anything BUT marketing? Winning doesn't get you a raise. At my job, we compete against other lawyers and law firms at hearings and trials. Winning those cases is only slightly more important than getting paid for those cases. It doesn’t matter how good of an attorney they are, if they can’t the parts of the job that make sure I can bill out their case, they are worthless to the firm even if they win 100% of their cases. The same applies to EG and anyone who makes the argument that winning is more important is simply naïve or a fool. Winning does not buy plane tickets to events or pay for their health insurance. It's a competitive game. And to constantly say the Koreans got no ''charisma'' or are not ''marketable'' which imo both are completely not true... but either way... by keeping that thinking alive (hence why they repeat it so much) the non Koreans (who really can't compete ingame) stay relevant. Of course if you got like a Stephano in the top 8 of a tournament with 7 Koreans... he is the one that stands out. Just like 1 cube in the middle of 100 spheres stands out...
Law is a competitive field, the system that they function is designed to be competitive. It is way meaner than SC2 is at its most harsh. Being an attorney that is good at trying cases does not do anything if the work they do cannot be billed out because they can’t keep accurate records or record their time in a way I can spin it to the client. Winning is not everything when it comes to running a business. In fact, it matters less than making enough money to try to win next time. Don’t say it’s a “competitive game” like that somehow changes the example when the thing I compared it to is far more competitive.
And the reason folks like yourself like to point at stats and winning events is because its easy and the facts are simply. Look, one number is higher than the other, so clearly EG and other non-Korean teams don’t matter. But that doesn’t work when you apply it to any other competitive event. There are tons of NFL teams that have not won a super bowl in years, yet they still exist. The Red Sox did not win a world series for nearly 100 years. The Cubs still haven’t and its over 100 years. Only one person wins the Masters, yet there are over 100 professional golfers or more in the world.
Winning isn’t everything when it comes to running a team. And just because your players win, it does not mean they will make you money. And making money off of players that win a lot, but are also shy and don’t speak English is a lot harder than people think.
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It's silly to argue results are primarily what get you perks when that is obviously not true, whether that's how it should be or not. How else would somebody with a 33% win percentage be sitting cushy in a teamhouse with a big contract if there weren't circumstances outside of in-game performance? Popularity and mass appeal will always trump the unassuming yet superior player, it's just how it is.
We might as well accept it and move on to new topics. ^_^
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Canada200 Posts
On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged.
You are fucking annoying.....
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On February 19 2013 02:09 nvs. wrote:
It's silly to argue results are primarily what get you perks when that is obviously not true, whether that's how it should be or not. How else would somebody with a 33% win percentage be sitting cushy in a teamhouse with a big contract if there weren't circumstances outside of in-game performance? Popularity and mass appeal will always trump the unassuming yet superior player, it's just how it is.
We might as well accept it and move on to new topics. ^_^
It goes beyond that as well. If the player is good for team moral, provides good guidance to other players or is a good front man for the team, they may keep them for those reasons. Professional sports teams have been doing this for years. The Red Sox catcher, Jason Varitek, did not put up the greatest numbers of all time during his career, but was well known for his leadership on the team. There where never any thoughts of moving him off for someone with better numbers(and his numbers were very good, just not amazing) People need to stop being short sighted and accept that fact that there is more than one reason to have a player on a team.
Also, the dig at the cushy in a teamhouse was cute, but silly. The EG house just looks like a house with really nice tile floors and nice counter tops. You still couldn’t pay me to live with that many people, rent free or not.
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On February 19 2013 02:12 FreedomMurder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. You are fucking annoying.....
i tried to understand your message, but my head exploded. Your level of understanding the English language must have surpassed us all i guess.
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On February 19 2013 02:26 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 02:12 FreedomMurder wrote:On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. You are fucking annoying..... i tried to understand your message, but my head exploded. Your level of understanding the English language must have surpassed us all i guess.
His post history pretty much shows he loves EG and Incontrol a lot, and that he makes rational and makes rational arguments about a lot of subjects. He is really polite when he does it too.
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On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged.
Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill.
But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it?
He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be...
Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing.
In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo.
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On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill. But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it? He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be... Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing. In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo.
I have to disagree, one relates more to personality than to skill. Mvp is very quiet and modest which is part of the reason he has such a wide fanbase. He's not cocky to the point of arrogance like Parting or prone to nerves like, say, Curious. Obviously he has only risen because of his skill, else it is hard to stand out from the Korean crowd.
But in NA/EU we can relate to the pros more due to speaking the same language and being around them more often. Players with a personality - regardless of whether we see it as good or bad - Stephano, Idra, Naniwa - will always be more popular than the quiet players who don't have as much of a stand out personality - Sase, Lucifron, Nerchio - regardless of those players' skill.
When there are shows that allow players to voice their opinions, we get to know them better. We read their blogs, we see their interviews, and we build a connection. Look at TLO, for instance. Who wasn't moved by his story in Liquid Rising? Is he good? Sure, but he hasn't won a major tournament yet. He's probably in the top 10 for EU Zergs, but he's nowhere near top level yet. But his stream and his personality are what attract people to him.
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On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill. But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it? He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be... Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing. In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo.
Man, you are going to keep using that "ingame skill" over and over, arn't you? I mean its the only point you have, so I guess you are going to keep using it. Still, with all the other reasons why to have Incontrol on the team, one would think you would have given up. But this is the internet, where dumb arguments are made, regardless of their merit.
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On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill. But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it? He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be... Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing. In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo.
How can you have an opinion on a fact? imo a glass full of water has more water in it than a half full glass. imo i have 5 fingers on my right hand. You can try to say it as a fact, that MVP is the most famous player in Europe (which is completely wrong, how on earth do you come up with, that the EU scene only likes the best players?) and in Korea (which is most likely wrong too, as other koreans have been seen with more fans, even without calculating in the kespa's). But you can't say imo he is the most famous. You could say that in your opinion he should be or that in your heart he is though.
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On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:
Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill.
But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it?
He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be...
Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing.
In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo.
Embarrassing.
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On February 19 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill. But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it? He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be... Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing. In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo. Man, you are going to keep using that "ingame skill" over and over, arn't you? I mean its the only point you have, so I guess you are going to keep using it. Still, with all the other reasons why to have Incontrol on the team, one would think you would have given up. But this is the internet, where dumb arguments are made, regardless of their merit.
You where just arguing about something else than me... i never said incontrol is not a good asset to EG in the NA scene... hence why i didn't reply to you.
But if you want, i'll reply to your points like saying football teams who haven't won anything major in ages still have a good fanbase? Of course... people grow up with these local teams and stay fan for life, it's something completely different.
And about the lawyer example, i would be highly surprised if someone with a negative win record would be more wanted than someone with a positive win record... obviously i understand you also need to pull cases in for the next paycheck, but the perfect base for that is that you are actually skilled at what you do, no?
On February 19 2013 03:16 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill. But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it? He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be... Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing. In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo. How can you have an opinion on a fact? imo a glass full of water has more water in it than a half full glass. imo i have 5 fingers on my right hand. You can try to say it as a fact, that MVP is the most famous player in Europe (which is completely wrong, how on earth do you come up with, that the EU scene only likes the best players?) and in Korea (which is most likely wrong too, as other koreans have been seen with more fans, even without calculating in the kespa's). But you can't say imo he is the most famous. You could say that in your opinion he should be or that in your heart he is though.
I asked who would be the most popular... MVP just came to mind, the name doesn't really matter as long as it is a competitive guy and not some random player with a sharp tongue.
Either way, WWE actually shows what i'm trying to debate here... that stuff would never be popular in Europea/Korea like it is in America... make up your own mind up why that is.
Or why Chael Sonnen is so loved in the ufc and gets title shot after title shot while losing? Etc.
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On February 19 2013 03:21 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill. But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it? He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be... Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing. In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo. Man, you are going to keep using that "ingame skill" over and over, arn't you? I mean its the only point you have, so I guess you are going to keep using it. Still, with all the other reasons why to have Incontrol on the team, one would think you would have given up. But this is the internet, where dumb arguments are made, regardless of their merit. You where just arguing about something else than me... i never said incontrol is not a good asset to EG in the NA scene... hence why i didn't reply to you. But if you want, i'll reply to your points like saying football teams who haven't won anything major in ages still have a good fanbase? Of course... people grow up with these local teams and stay fan for life, it's something completely different. And about the lawyer example, i would be highly surprised if someone with a negative win record would be more wanted then someone with a positive win record... obviously i understand you also need to pull cases in for the next paycheck, but the perfect base for that is that you are actually skilled at what you do, no?
We are arguing about the same thing, you just think or choose to think we arn't. As for the attorney thing, I never said losing record. I pointed out that an awesome win record in court is worthless if I can't bill out the file because the attorney does not record their work or interact with the client. In the legal world, thats our own version of marketing. I have an attorney that kicks ass in court and she smashs out cases. She is terrible at client interaction and they remember that when it comes to write the check. Winning isn't everything when it comes to making money, in sports or in anything else.
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technique justin bieber proves everything you said wrong.
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i don't care about this debate but i'm just gonna throw in that it seems pretty obvious to me that Stephano is the most popular starcraft 2 player overall.
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On February 19 2013 02:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 01:34 Technique wrote:On February 19 2013 00:10 Plansix wrote:On February 18 2013 18:05 FreudianTrip wrote:On February 18 2013 17:55 Frosthaze wrote:I really like the show and the hosts, however during the latest episode I felt like why are they talking about "koreans not beeing marketable" yet again. Why are they even talking about marketing? Obviously it's important that the teams earns money, but quite frankly it's not that interesting listening to. On the other hand, in these are turbulent times, teams are disbanding left and right. Talking about marketing is not completely irrelevant, but I think I got fed up listening to the whole thing during the episode which basically covered slasher tweeting announcements. I just want to listen to clever guys talking about starcraft, tournaments etc. My two cents. It's Inside the EG. Why would they give a shit about anything BUT marketing? Winning doesn't get you a raise. At my job, we compete against other lawyers and law firms at hearings and trials. Winning those cases is only slightly more important than getting paid for those cases. It doesn’t matter how good of an attorney they are, if they can’t the parts of the job that make sure I can bill out their case, they are worthless to the firm even if they win 100% of their cases. The same applies to EG and anyone who makes the argument that winning is more important is simply naïve or a fool. Winning does not buy plane tickets to events or pay for their health insurance. It's a competitive game. And to constantly say the Koreans got no ''charisma'' or are not ''marketable'' which imo both are completely not true... but either way... by keeping that thinking alive (hence why they repeat it so much) the non Koreans (who really can't compete ingame) stay relevant. Of course if you got like a Stephano in the top 8 of a tournament with 7 Koreans... he is the one that stands out. Just like 1 cube in the middle of 100 spheres stands out... Law is a competitive field, the system that they function is designed to be competitive. It is way meaner than SC2 is at its most harsh. Being an attorney that is good at trying cases does not do anything if the work they do cannot be billed out because they can’t keep accurate records or record their time in a way I can spin it to the client. Winning is not everything when it comes to running a business. In fact, it matters less than making enough money to try to win next time. Don’t say it’s a “competitive game” like that somehow changes the example when the thing I compared it to is far more competitive. And the reason folks like yourself like to point at stats and winning events is because its easy and the facts are simply. Look, one number is higher than the other, so clearly EG and other non-Korean teams don’t matter. But that doesn’t work when you apply it to any other competitive event. There are tons of NFL teams that have not won a super bowl in years, yet they still exist. The Red Sox did not win a world series for nearly 100 years. The Cubs still haven’t and its over 100 years. Only one person wins the Masters, yet there are over 100 professional golfers or more in the world. Winning isn’t everything when it comes to running a team. And just because your players win, it does not mean they will make you money. And making money off of players that win a lot, but are also shy and don’t speak English is a lot harder than people think.
Making sense in a thread (where a lot of people purposely look away from the truth and continue rambling) is a waste of time on the internet most of the time. Even if your reasoning is valid and your arguments are sound, people that choose to not listen will not listen. There are also stubborn idiots that will keep on pushing even if they realize they're wrong.
I'd suggest you stay away from threads like these or you'd get some headaches with all the stupid shit going on. Which you probably have already.
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Entertaining episode as always.
It would be nice to have a guest per episode that can contribute greatly to the week's current discussion (like casters or players that actually watch the livestreams or VODs on tournaments that are going to be discussed). Just a thought.
Also, so that there's a lot less opportunity for DJ Wheat to go on a sarcastic long borderline-yelling rant when he could have just stated his point in a few words and give the others a chance to talk. Not hating on him, but I don't like having to turn the volume all the way down every single time.
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On February 19 2013 03:32 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 03:21 Technique wrote:On February 19 2013 03:12 Plansix wrote:On February 19 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On February 19 2013 01:55 iNcontroL wrote:
Yep. You know better than us.. We just say those things to spread propaganda to keep ourselves in power. Yeah, you have us pegged. Ok you got me... i was completely wrong and you are where you are at due to your ingame skill. But on a serious note... who would be the most popular sc2 player? MVP? That kinda proofs my point, doesn't it? He is highly appreciated due to his ingame skill and accomplishments, just the way it should be... Obviously i understand you are good for a NA team... but that still is just a NA thing. In Europe and Korea skill is still the #1 appreciated thing imo. Man, you are going to keep using that "ingame skill" over and over, arn't you? I mean its the only point you have, so I guess you are going to keep using it. Still, with all the other reasons why to have Incontrol on the team, one would think you would have given up. But this is the internet, where dumb arguments are made, regardless of their merit. You where just arguing about something else than me... i never said incontrol is not a good asset to EG in the NA scene... hence why i didn't reply to you. But if you want, i'll reply to your points like saying football teams who haven't won anything major in ages still have a good fanbase? Of course... people grow up with these local teams and stay fan for life, it's something completely different. And about the lawyer example, i would be highly surprised if someone with a negative win record would be more wanted then someone with a positive win record... obviously i understand you also need to pull cases in for the next paycheck, but the perfect base for that is that you are actually skilled at what you do, no? We are arguing about the same thing, you just think or choose to think we arn't. As for the attorney thing, I never said losing record. I pointed out that an awesome win record in court is worthless if I can't bill out the file because the attorney does not record their work or interact with the client. In the legal world, thats our own version of marketing. I have an attorney that kicks ass in court and she smashs out cases. She is terrible at client interaction and they remember that when it comes to write the check. Winning isn't everything when it comes to making money, in sports or in anything else.
So use her strengths and let someone else do the client interaction... you think all the top artists at WETA are doing client interaction?
I still don't see the link to what i was saying before, unless you mean that a team needs more than only top players.... but i don't really care about the whole team aspect since this is a single player rts game and actually much prefer guys like Grubby who is his own entity... i think that works much better for esports.
And i believe a guy like Jaedong should have done the same... he would have no problem finding practice partners and his name would most likely carry him to some big sponsorships.
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On February 19 2013 03:52 Technique wrote:
I still don't see the link to what i was saying before
Its impossible to have a link to anything you have said as you haven't made a clear or coherent point.
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EPT
