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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 26 2011 11:24 Xapti wrote:
ROFL WAFL
Patch 16: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 17: Zealot build time decreased from 38 to 33.
Patch 1.1.0: Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38.
Patch 1.3.3: Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
WTF M8?
Patch 16/17 were internal changes for testing what would be the 1.1 patch. The implementation was brief.
1.1 they gave their reasoning for, and now 1.3 has the associated warp gate changes. So in actuality the changes aren't that much see saw.
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Basically the Protoss Proxy that a Zerg did not find and meant probable death is now nearly certain death again when combined with 2 Gateways. :>
Somehow I see Protoss Players change from 4 Gate to 3Gate Blinkstalkers now, as the new timings fit quite nicely. So instead of harrassment with Voidray/Phoenix, we can go back to just killing zergs, with the stronger blinkstalker build. ^^
I feel like some players will be more pissed that they actually have to adapt to the changes, instead of just weakening the Protoss.
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On April 26 2011 16:22 Volkov wrote:I really think the warp gate timing should NOT have been changed. As it is, if you are preparing against a 3-rax push, it already comes almost too late.
You do realize that with the build time changes, you'll be able to have more units out than before, right?
The warpgate timing change slows down offensive warpin attacks, that's it. It doesn't weaken early protoss defense, in fact, the gateway build time reductions *strengthen* that early defense.
I've even seen a number of posts (including one from someone claiming to be a 3500 master protoss player!!!???!!) claiming that 6-pool is going to be much stronger after the changes, which is absolutely ridiculous. When the zealot build time was being increased, the forums were full of protoss players claiming they'd never in a million years be able to hold off a 6pool with the increased zealot build time. Now that the time is being decreased, it's somehow *even harder* to hold off a 6pool?
Faster early units = stronger early defense. Is that really so difficult?
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Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
WHAT have you done Blizzard???
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I like everything in this patch except the removal of air stacking. I've never considered this a bug. It's an APM intensive tactic that allows more units to fire at once. How are Vikings supposed to hit and run Collossi, Corruptors or Void Rays with any type of efficiency now? How can Mutas harass small areas picking off stray units with one-shots? If anything, I would consider this a buff for Protoss because they are the least affected by it.
Also, now Thors are going to be pretty much useless against Mutas. Tech builds that relied on Thors to defend vs. Muta harass will go out the window, but at the same time the Muta hit and run harass will be less effective because you will have to expose more mutas to a larger area to kill the same thing.
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hope blizzard listen to progamers opinnions because seems like they dont
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My thoughts:
pvx: hello 2 gate proxy. They originally nerfed zealot build time because you could 2 gate proxy, have it scouted, and still win vs top players - vs any race. They obviously will have to change this b4 they release any patch.
pvp: low to high ground warp in finally is nerfed, which alone makes 4 gate able to be held off by other builds. That + increased warpgate research...finally pvp will be better to play and watch i'd hope!
pvt: as said above, hello 2 gate proxies. But from from p perspective, now 3 gate aggro/sentry+stalker will be used still but will come from gateways initially. archon also won't be infinite kited from marauder, which is really good as one marauder shot often meant guaranteed archon death. It might make mass gateway even better tho because an archon can charge in and take the concussive 
pvZ: hello 2 gate proxy lol
T match-ups: the ghost cost change is a buff in all match-ups. For players that don't understand the economy of this game, mules don't make u super rich, they actually only keep you even with the other races a lot of times. gas is always the restricting factor in your strategy.
tvp: on 2 player maps you will a lot of times have to blind prepare/wall for 2 gate proxy
ghost is more accessible so ghostmech is buffed, and this helps T late game a tiny bit with more available EMPs as well as having more cost efficiency added in the army versus an instant reinforcing race.
they keep abusing bunkers tho which is hilarious, they are fine as is, a lot of builds require bunkers to survive, like on xel naga you are forced to build bunkers so having salvage helps but oh well.
tvt: this ghost change is a buff to rarely used ghost openings that can lead into bio + nuke play. Very few have experience with this, but you now have an entirely more viable option versus tank heavy players if you prefer straight up bio play in army vs army confrontations.
tvz: ghosts are more accessible to combat the new infestor+broodlord which is giving every terran player huge headaches right now. I honestly don't think it will help enough though.
zvp: spores change is a good one, gimmickky air builds that could cripple/kill zerg to the point where toss could just finish them off with warpgates afterwards...will be weaker now.
zvz: not much?
zvt: slightly better banshee defense, and ghosts will be more prevalent but fungal still will be good so not much change.
to sum up the biggest changes: hello proxy 2 gates 
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On April 26 2011 16:28 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 16:27 qui wrote:
2v2 just became even more broken.
Protoss are going to proxy gate every game if they have any sense at all.
Seriously, all Blizzard needs to do to fix 2v2 is improve the map pool. Currently 2v2 maps are smaller than 1v1 maps which is just retarded. Wait, weren't PvX teams the weakest on 2v2? And yeah, we need better 2v2 maps
I agree. Having 2v2 (or 3v3 or 4v4) maps with shorter rush distances than 1v1 maps makes no sense, at all.
The ghost cost change seems... interesting. It'll help with ghost-mech, the gas cost is a serious hassle there. But when playing bio gas isn't the restriction, minerals are, so I think this might be a slight nerf in that case.
This should make it more possible to get ghosts off of only 1 geyser, which makes fast ghosts tvp so much easier. I also wonder whether ghost play tvz might become more effective.
The archon buff is scary - though they were pretty sad before. Its gonna make EMPing down their shields much more important if you can't easily kite them with concussive.
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why don't they take out backwater gulch and slag pits as well? blizzard, you don't know how to make maps, employ professionals and stop torturing us ffs! and wtf is DQ still doing in the map pool? i'd rather have steppes of war then DQ!(*cough ICCup = professionals *cough*)
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i love how prot gets nerfed. And afterwards theres alwayas a group who bitch about the nerf. And yet prot still remains a very strong race...
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In PvZ I think the proxy 2 gate is going to become much more popular, especially shortly after the release, and is going to require a 9 or 10 drone scout by z in order to make sure they can safely hatch first. We actually might see pool first into hatch become the standard opening for ZvP, because close spawn non-proxy 2 gate is still going to be quite deadly to a 15 hatch opening.
pool first before hatch is already a whole lot more standard than hatch first in PvZ because of pylon block
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On April 26 2011 16:23 windsupernova wrote:
Well, I am one of the people who most support Blizzard and their vision of the game, but on this one I don't think PvP was broken. Especially since the Cruncher Naniwa match I saw how PvP can and will go to lategame if the players are somewhat evenly skilled.
And once the changes go live, PVP can and will go to a lategame if the players are somewhat evenly skilled.
The only difference is that they won't have to progress through a 4gate opening every single time.
Every other matchup has a wide variety of viable openings. Only PvP forces all high-level play to go through slight variations of a single opening.
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And zerg buff once again. Nothing concerning expected infestors nerf, sadly.
Fortunately it's not up to you to balance the game.
I think the spore crawler change is great, vrays were just able to kill them before they got a single shot off after unrooting. I feel afraid of 2 gates and cannon+zealot rushes now :/
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On April 26 2011 16:36 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 16:22 Volkov wrote:I really think the warp gate timing should NOT have been changed. As it is, if you are preparing against a 3-rax push, it already comes almost too late. You do realize that with the build time changes, you'll be able to have more units out than before, right? The warpgate timing change slows down offensive warpin attacks, that's it. It doesn't weaken early protoss defense, in fact, the gateway build time reductions *strengthen* that early defense. I've even seen a number of posts (including one from someone claiming to be a 3500 master protoss player!!!???!!) claiming that 6-pool is going to be much stronger after the changes, which is absolutely ridiculous. When the zealot build time was being increased, the forums were full of protoss players claiming they'd never in a million years be able to hold off a 6pool with the increased zealot build time. Now that the time is being decreased, it's somehow *even harder* to hold off a 6pool? Faster early units = stronger early defense. Is that really so difficult?
Once you turn your gates into warp gates you get an extra round of units immediately. If I'm attempting to hold a very early all-in I would want warp-gate tech to kick in as soon as possible so that I have my initial gateway units pop out, then I can turn into warpgate and warp in an additional round immediately afterward. I'm not sure if it strengths or weakens early defense, if anything it might just weaken it and make things like the 3 roach speedling all in more effective.
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On April 26 2011 16:14 lorkac wrote:
4Gates is NOT nerfed.
4Gate is still going to hit at about the same time it normally does except for the really really fast 4Gate builds.
So basically, 4gate is nerfed. This is literally the only 4gate you do in PvP. 6 stalker 1 zealot at 5:40, start pylons on low ground as you push in at 6:00. If you fail to hit this timing, it is much harder for the 4gate to work at all.
With the timing pushed back a whole whopping 40 seconds, this basically negates PvP 4gates, or almost any 4gate, completely. That's just a fact; it's not even debatable at all. I am completely surprised that anyone even thinks otherwise.
Other match-ups will not be changed nearly as much because 4gate hasn't lately been a huge problem in PvT or PvZ. This pushes back ALL types of 4gates back 40 seconds, no matter how many chrono boosts are used on the WG tech.
Seriously, this is such a huge change that it will completely redefine the first 10 or so minutes of PvP completely. 2gate into cyber or 1gate robo will probably become the norm. It will also slightly change openers for other match-ups as well.
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A better idea would've been to leave pylon radius at 7.5 and factor in the height raised concourses into that radius, effectively having the same effect, that is, needing to build the pylon closer to a wall. I guess that's a bit harder of a solution though.
All the other changes are ok, but as a T player, the amount of options P are getting to deal with bio is pretty scary.
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On April 26 2011 16:38 Devolved wrote:
I like everything in this patch except the removal of air stacking. I've never considered this a bug. It's an APM intensive tactic that allows more units to fire at once. How are Vikings supposed to hit and run Collossi, Corruptors or Void Rays with any type of efficiency now? How can Mutas harass small areas picking off stray units with one-shots? If anything, I would consider this a buff for Protoss because they are the least affected by it.
Also, now Thors are going to be pretty much useless against Mutas. Tech builds that relied on Thors to defend vs. Muta harass will go out the window, but at the same time the Muta hit and run harass will be less effective because you will have to expose more mutas to a larger area to kill the same thing.
From what i understand of the air stacking bug is that you could still do the viking flower where you clicked the vikings around so they stacked and pressed hold position. You will still be able to clump up air units by right clicking around if i understood it right.
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Can anyone clear this up for me? -> gateway build time and warpgate cooldown are now equivalent for all gateway units right?
(not including warp in time)
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I dislike the change that make the warpgate research take 3min(ingame)
I also dislike the pylon change makes it harder to wall of against zerg as toss
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won't archons still be kited due to low range and speed compared to stim bio balls? Ultralisks are easy enough to kite off creep and archons are a little slower then ultras. 2.8 vs 2.95.
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EPT
