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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 08:42 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 08:03 shizna wrote:On May 05 2011 07:27 Chemist391 wrote:On May 05 2011 07:22 eloist wrote:
I feel an unexplored angle of the Thor change is that in addition to opening up a way for Protoss to deal with Thors, it takes away a way for Terran to deal with HTs.
HTs are now great against basically anything Terran can produce with the exception of Tanks and Ghosts. The later of which they can actually use feedback against as well. T has the clear upper hand in the Ghost vs HT micro-battle. You feel pigeon-holed? The existence of the Banshee forces P players to build a robo in nearly every PvT. the existence of DT forces T players to scan. seriously though, ghost versus high templar is a good micro battle. i wish blizzard would just do something good with thor cannon, remove the stun and give it siege range or something. it's not worth the upgrade in the slightest when protoss can feedback your thors before they can activate cannon. Not a fair comparison. You are going to get an orbital, always. (unless it's some sort of insane 2rax all-in). The scan is a snap-reactionary move, assuming you're close to 50 energy or your macro is off. The robo is 200/100 plus building time, THEN you need to make the observer. A T can be caught with his pants down by DTs and not auto-lose. A protoss caught with his pants down by a banshee does auto-lose. Further, because DTs are in the game does not force a T to just randomly drop scans in his main every single game. If we see anything but a straight up 3rax, we MUST make a robo. DTs only force scans if they are made. Banshees force the robo by virtue of the fact that they are a unit that you can make. Ghost vs HT is NOT a good micro battle. Let's assume optimal spread by the protoss. -Range disparity -AoE spell against a slow-moving and easy-to-spot HT vs single-click spell against a fast and often difficult to spot (under medivac, or cloaked) ghost. -EMP disables the HT and does massive burst-damage to all protoss units. You don't need to choose between AoE damage and disabling the spell caster. Storm will not kill a ghost, so the choice between FB and storm is not trivial. -Attempting to EMP an HT is almost always guaranteed damage. Attempting to feedback a ghost will/should result in you losing the HT to EMP before you are in range. -You can micro out of a storm. I can't micro out of an EMP and save half of my shields. -Even with the nerf to energy destruction by EMP, you trade 75 for 100, which means you trade 1 storm worth of energy for two feedbacks or 1.333 storms. I, however, agree that making strike cannon energy-based again seems like a poor change.
i don't know if you'll see this reply, but regardless i think it could be very important to anyone else who doesn't really know anything about terran.
ghost has better range, and might be easier to aim if you have sausage fingers and can't click on a single unit. however, there are two major factors which favour the HT.
1. emp has a cap in that once you blitz the protoss army with 2-3 EMP's, your EMP ability becomes useless and the ghost becomes a very expensive marine. protoss on the other hand can continue to spam storms until everything is dead. think about it, 3 storms is nowhere near as good as 9 back-to-back storms whereas 3 EMP's will be just as useful as 9 EMP's. in other words, HT's are great in large numbers, ghosts are weak in large numbers. this means that there is likely to be more HT's than ghosts, because it's stupid to get 5 extra ghosts just to cancel out the opponent's high number of HT's, knowing that your extra ghosts will be useless if protoss doesn't let you EMP his ht's.
2. being able to plan, position and aim your emp/feedback depends on your ability to scout. protoss have observer which will likely float between the two armies, granting superior vision. it's very hard for the terran to deny a well-microed observer, and the terrans scan is only temporary intel - the protoss can easily see the scan, know that the terran has an advantageous window to attempt EMP, and therefore keep his HT's away from the ghosts. you'll see this scenario in 99% of pro matches that get to the 'ghost vs ht' stage.
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It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them.
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On May 06 2011 01:41 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:18 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 01:13 s3rp wrote:On May 06 2011 01:10 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:57 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution. There is just no excuse for why a masters level protoss should be letting their colossus get strike cannoned by thors. Thors are incredibly slow, if you manage to get flanked by thors, there is something seriously wrong with your scouting. In a battle the extra 2 range is totally insurmountable because of the wall of chargelots that are also a decent response to heavy thors on their own. The use of strike cannons with zealots in the mix is incredibly risky as it generally results in your thor spinning in circles doing nothing. Once your zealots are dead, if your a good protoss there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to kite with your ranged units, terran have to do kiting micro all the time, its not that hard. Thus the only unit which strike cannons are used against in practise is the immortal (and from my experience, sloppy protoss who towards the end of the battle don't kite). This change basically allows protoss to completely hard counter thors with cheaper and lower supply units - AS well as making HT tech much more viable against mech (so now really strong against every Terran tech path - sounds fair. If by "completely counter" you mean that you now need ghosts to EMP their HT then I agree with you! Making SC2 a little bit more about options and micro and less about "haha, my death ball stomps your death ball" is a good thing imo. Here's the thing it will be alot easier to not build Thors and play different stuff . Thors right now are not good in big battles . Won't change with the Patch. It'll just kill the Thor pushes. That's your opinion. My opinion is that Thors are currently useful in moderation in both TvP and TvZ, both for different reasons. In TvP they are borderline overpowered, because they can get an ability that allows them to roflstomp the unit that *should* hardcounter them. This change rectifies that and allows micro battles to ensue! EDIT: ah, you edited your post to be more informative. Well, marauders have their own counters. When faced with a large force of colossi, thors fare considerably better than marauders. Being able to a-move into a colossus/stalker army as terran is quite an interesting ability that marauder/viking simply doen't have. Are marauders, overall, a better unit than thors? I would agree with you there. But that's not the same as saying thors are useless. I would argue that mutalisks overall are a better unit than hydras, but hydras have their niche. Well Thors will have a niche but it'll be small , just like the other big Units . Besides well the Kolosus. They for some reason are allways a good unit sometimes amazing. If you wanna put big Units in a niche , fine but do it likewise with all of them.
From an overall design point of view I would agree with you that the current state of Colossi is a rather boring one. Rather than a sometimes used support unit it is basically the main damage dealer in any protoss army past the 10minute mark. It is a rather boring unit besides.
However, this is not the thread to discuss overall design philosophy. In my opinion the energy change will not break Thors, they will still be pulled out to strike cannon immortals, stomp on forcefields and volley phoenixes. However now Protoss has a counter to a mass-thor army as popularized by Thorzain and Goody (although credit should go to Jinro for showing the potential against MC).
Could strike cannon be tweeked a bit? Possibly. I doubt this is the very last balance change needed in the game! But I do like Blizzard's way of patching: each balance patch contains 4 or 5 changes which they let play out for a month or so, before deciding what else needs changing. Nothing gets broken, but not everything gets fixed either. Can you argue that this should have been done in a beta? Of course, but it requires the metagame of hundreds if not thousands of players to figure out what changes should be made. Beta weeded out (most of) the completely broken balance issues (1 supply roaches, lol). The fine touches are better suited to live play.
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On May 06 2011 01:38 angra86 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 21:25 Rorschach wrote:On May 05 2011 18:07 Wyk wrote:On May 05 2011 17:14 dogmatix wrote:
make feedback do 100 energy max too in my humble opinion Hey guys, dont skip this post! Yes lets gimp the toss spell caster even more. WHY would they ever make feedback only take 100 energy? Because the ghost drains max 100? Don't forget that the EMP drains mana/sheilds and is AOE whereas feedback targets a SINGLE unit. Make it area of effect like EMP and I will agree with you until then quite spouting nonsensical ideas... Don't forget feedback deals damage and often times out right kills the unit as well. Not saying 100 energy max should happen but simply pointing out the flaw in logic.
Its not often that you will feedback a unit that is at full energy and outright kill it. Medivacs are constantly using their mana and the same goes for banshees unless you didn't research the cloak.
A cap to mana burn on a spell that only affects a single unit is a bad idea. Feedback is far from broken which is what a bunch of people here seem to imply....
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On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them.
But... but... MC lost a game to Thors! Tyler lost a game to Thors! Therefore, Thors must be overpowered!
/sarcasm
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On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them.
Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy).
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On May 06 2011 02:15 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:38 angra86 wrote:On May 05 2011 21:25 Rorschach wrote:On May 05 2011 18:07 Wyk wrote:On May 05 2011 17:14 dogmatix wrote:
make feedback do 100 energy max too in my humble opinion Hey guys, dont skip this post! Yes lets gimp the toss spell caster even more. WHY would they ever make feedback only take 100 energy? Because the ghost drains max 100? Don't forget that the EMP drains mana/sheilds and is AOE whereas feedback targets a SINGLE unit. Make it area of effect like EMP and I will agree with you until then quite spouting nonsensical ideas... Don't forget feedback deals damage and often times out right kills the unit as well. Not saying 100 energy max should happen but simply pointing out the flaw in logic. Its not often that you will feedback a unit that is at full energy and outright kill it. Medivacs are constantly using their mana and the same goes for banshees unless you didn't research the cloak. A cap to mana burn on a spell that only affects a single unit is a bad idea. Feedback is far from broken which is what a bunch of people here seem to imply....
I would agree that Feedback is not broken. What seems odd to me is how many Terran units are vulnerable to Feedback.
I would really like to see the durable materials upgrade make Ravens invulnerable to Feedback. That would be a great buff, but would certainly be met with heavy Protoss resistance.
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Canada13379 Posts
On May 06 2011 02:20 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them. Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy).
I think its because they are so rare at lower levels since they aren't popular. Don't forget Bliz does internal testing, and talks to pros and watch all tournies :p
I believe the issue is the thor marine strike all in it is nearly impossible to hold.
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On May 06 2011 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 02:20 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them. Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy). I think its because they are so rare at lower levels since they aren't popular. Don't forget Bliz does internal testing, and talks to pros and watch all tournies :p I believe the issue is the thor marine strike all in it is nearly impossible to hold.
You have replays?? I would like to see it
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On May 06 2011 01:43 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:35 randplaty wrote:
Strike cannon is still usable. HTs didn't even come onto the field until late late game in TvP even with the amulet. Without amulet, HTs were almost non-existent. Protoss typically went Robo->Robo Bay->Council -> Templar tech. Thors with strike cannon can be on the field much earlier than HT.
With the Thors havng to regenrate 100 Energy to use the Ability probably not , a bit ealier maybe theres a small window but after that you can just stop building Thors at all.
Thorzain vs Tyler and MC... Everytime Thorzain used thors he either used strike cannon really late in the game.. or he didn't even really use them at all. Thorzain strike cannoned Collossus in a pro match against Tyler, so even though collossus outrange Thors, I don't think its that easy to kite Thors with Collossus. Thorzain didn't even really use strike cannons against MC. MC went templar tech because he knew robotech wouldn't work against Thors. But MC got owned just as bad. There is 0 counter to Thors. Voidrays work when the army sizes are small, but not in larger numbers.
Pre patch:
Thormech > robo tech
Thormech > templar tech
Thormech > stargate tech
Post patch:
Thormech > robo tech
Thormech > HT tech
Thormech > stargate tech
Thormech < HT + robo
What's wrong with that?
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On May 06 2011 02:29 br0fivE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:On May 06 2011 02:20 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them. Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy). I think its because they are so rare at lower levels since they aren't popular. Don't forget Bliz does internal testing, and talks to pros and watch all tournies :p I believe the issue is the thor marine strike all in it is nearly impossible to hold. You have replays?? I would like to see it
I would check out Thorzain in the TSL. He started using this style and has done well against some pretty impressive Protoss players. LiquidTyler, who lost to it, said he was having a really tough time figuring out how to deal with it efficently and not leaving himself wide open to a counter attack.
Day 9 also says that the change isn't huge and makes some match ups more forgiving. Really, there isn't another "ability/spell" that does damage and doesn't cost mana. Why should the Thor be any different than a BC, templar, infestor or ghost?
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On May 06 2011 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 02:29 br0fivE wrote:On May 06 2011 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:On May 06 2011 02:20 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them. Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy). I think its because they are so rare at lower levels since they aren't popular. Don't forget Bliz does internal testing, and talks to pros and watch all tournies :p I believe the issue is the thor marine strike all in it is nearly impossible to hold. You have replays?? I would like to see it I would check out Thorzain in the TSL. He started using this style and has done well against some pretty impressive Protoss players. LiquidTyler, who lost to it, said he was having a really tough time figuring out how to deal with it efficently and not leaving himself wide open to a counter attack. Day 9 also says that the change isn't huge and makes some match ups more forgiving. Really, there isn't another "ability/spell" that does damage and doesn't cost mana. Why should the Thor be any different than a BC, templar, infestor or ghost?
Well because unlike the other units you mentioned, a thor actually has an auto attack. All the 250mm cannon does is stun the target while the thor does it's damage. There is about 40 extra damage over 10 secs using the strike cannon, which doesnt really make a difference.
So yea the strike cannon = 40 extra damage + 6 sec stun (takes 10 secs to do).
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On May 06 2011 02:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 02:29 br0fivE wrote:On May 06 2011 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:On May 06 2011 02:20 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them. Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy). I think its because they are so rare at lower levels since they aren't popular. Don't forget Bliz does internal testing, and talks to pros and watch all tournies :p I believe the issue is the thor marine strike all in it is nearly impossible to hold. You have replays?? I would like to see it I would check out Thorzain in the TSL. He started using this style and has done well against some pretty impressive Protoss players. LiquidTyler, who lost to it, said he was having a really tough time figuring out how to deal with it efficently and not leaving himself wide open to a counter attack. Day 9 also says that the change isn't huge and makes some match ups more forgiving. Really, there isn't another "ability/spell" that does damage and doesn't cost mana. Why should the Thor be any different than a BC, templar, infestor or ghost?
There also isn't any unit that can't get rid of their energy unless researched except the BC. Both of these get manhandled by templars, when the terran is stupid enough to make them(thors being when they have energy).
Also the thor strategy is very risky at the start, so if those are indeed Tyler's words, it might be explained for his lack of allins, since allins against a thor centric build can be very effective.
Personally I find this change just sad, it's really clear that Blizzard just wants MMM to prevail... jibby.
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On May 06 2011 02:48 randplaty wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:43 s3rp wrote:On May 06 2011 01:35 randplaty wrote:
Strike cannon is still usable. HTs didn't even come onto the field until late late game in TvP even with the amulet. Without amulet, HTs were almost non-existent. Protoss typically went Robo->Robo Bay->Council -> Templar tech. Thors with strike cannon can be on the field much earlier than HT.
With the Thors havng to regenrate 100 Energy to use the Ability probably not , a bit ealier maybe theres a small window but after that you can just stop building Thors at all. Thorzain vs Tyler and MC... Everytime Thorzain used thors he either used strike cannon really late in the game.. or he didn't even really use them at all. Thorzain strike cannoned Collossus in a pro match against Tyler, so even though collossus outrange Thors, I don't think its that easy to kite Thors with Collossus. Thorzain didn't even really use strike cannons against MC. MC went templar tech because he knew robotech wouldn't work against Thors. But MC got owned just as bad. There is 0 counter to Thors. Voidrays work when the army sizes are small, but not in larger numbers. Pre patch: Thormech > robo tech Thormech > templar tech Thormech > stargate tech Post patch: Thormech > robo tech Thormech > HT tech Thormech > stargate tech Thormech < HT + robo What's wrong with that?
Silver protoss here and I agree 100%. Furthermore I don't understand why terran buildings don't have energy. Liftoff should cost mana IMO so I can have a counter to liftoff. Also, EMP is OP and should require the terran player to hit a 6-key alphanumeric key combination to execute. I think hellions are too powerful vs zealots. Possibly what blizz needs to do is make hellions cost some gas that way the terran cant mass them so easily. Finally colossus need an air attack. Colossus cost so much gas but can't defend themselves verse vikings.
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On May 06 2011 02:59 Zarahtra wrote:
There also isn't any unit that can't get rid of their energy unless researched except the BC. Both of these get manhandled by templars, when the terran is stupid enough to make them(thors being when they have energy).
And banshee.
Also the thor strategy is very risky at the start, so if those are indeed Tyler's words, it might be explained for his lack of allins, since allins against a thor centric build can be very effective.
Personally I find this change just sad, it's really clear that Blizzard just wants MMM to prevail... jibby.
Actually the ghost change is a big buff for mech play. Maybe they just don't want thor+ghost.
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On May 06 2011 02:58 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 02:52 Plansix wrote:On May 06 2011 02:29 br0fivE wrote:On May 06 2011 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:On May 06 2011 02:20 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them. Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy). I think its because they are so rare at lower levels since they aren't popular. Don't forget Bliz does internal testing, and talks to pros and watch all tournies :p I believe the issue is the thor marine strike all in it is nearly impossible to hold. You have replays?? I would like to see it I would check out Thorzain in the TSL. He started using this style and has done well against some pretty impressive Protoss players. LiquidTyler, who lost to it, said he was having a really tough time figuring out how to deal with it efficently and not leaving himself wide open to a counter attack. Day 9 also says that the change isn't huge and makes some match ups more forgiving. Really, there isn't another "ability/spell" that does damage and doesn't cost mana. Why should the Thor be any different than a BC, templar, infestor or ghost? Well because unlike the other units you mentioned, a thor actually has an auto attack. All the 250mm cannon does is stun the target while the thor does it's damage. There is about 40 extra damage over 10 secs using the strike cannon, which doesnt really make a difference. So yea the strike cannon = 40 extra damage + 6 sec stun (takes 10 secs to do).
Ghosts and BCs both have auto attacks and are terran units. Also, that stun that fungle(4 second root) and does more damage, though it is not an AOE. I dont think it having an auto attack makes much differance.
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On May 06 2011 03:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 02:58 Deadlyfish wrote:On May 06 2011 02:52 Plansix wrote:On May 06 2011 02:29 br0fivE wrote:On May 06 2011 02:23 ZeromuS wrote:On May 06 2011 02:20 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 01:59 no.1 kissy boy wrote:
It's funny how protoss players didn't really complain about Thors prior to this iteration of the patch and now they're all like yeah Thors are absolutely impossible to deal with, we can't do anything about them. Yeah IMO you can generally see when there is a problem with a unit when there are a lot of [H] threads about it in the strategy forum - as there has been with colossus in perpetuity. Weird that there have hardly been any protoss [H] threads regarding thors (other then a couple complaining about the early timing pushes, but no more then complaining about any other random strategy). I think its because they are so rare at lower levels since they aren't popular. Don't forget Bliz does internal testing, and talks to pros and watch all tournies :p I believe the issue is the thor marine strike all in it is nearly impossible to hold. You have replays?? I would like to see it I would check out Thorzain in the TSL. He started using this style and has done well against some pretty impressive Protoss players. LiquidTyler, who lost to it, said he was having a really tough time figuring out how to deal with it efficently and not leaving himself wide open to a counter attack. Day 9 also says that the change isn't huge and makes some match ups more forgiving. Really, there isn't another "ability/spell" that does damage and doesn't cost mana. Why should the Thor be any different than a BC, templar, infestor or ghost? Well because unlike the other units you mentioned, a thor actually has an auto attack. All the 250mm cannon does is stun the target while the thor does it's damage. There is about 40 extra damage over 10 secs using the strike cannon, which doesnt really make a difference. So yea the strike cannon = 40 extra damage + 6 sec stun (takes 10 secs to do). Ghosts and BCs both have auto attacks and are terran units. Also, that stun that fungle(4 second root) and does more damage, though it is not an AOE. I dont think it having an auto attack makes much differance.
Well ok the bc maybe, but ghost auto attack? Man that stuff is annoying when you're trying to be sneaky with cloaked ghosts ^^ And it does almost no damage 
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The protoss adjustment is now PERFECT in my opinion. Good balance between slight 4gate nerf and no silly proxy shenanigan buffing.
The terran change on the other hand is one giant WTF. Guess that means I'm back to not using thors except in thor rush against toss again. It's like blizz completely forgot the feedback issues from before. Come to think of it, I won't even use thors in a rush because I can't strike cannon the immortals.
Not sure if no thor in TvP was the plan, but that's what's gonna happen.
EDIT: TvP was the most balanced matchup prior to this change too, the numbers were incredibly even. Plus, I don't remember much protoss QQ about thor before this change. Now they're all up at arms about the invincible thor. I don't want to go freaking MMM every single game until I die, but that seems to be the goal.
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Man threads like these are painful to read. So much BS met with more kneejerk BS one after another.
It's almost worse than a bnet thread now. We have sub diamond theorycrafters telling master players what to do. Times like these is when I'm truly dissapointed in the community. /condescendingrant
I just want to call out that a dude a few pages back said that pheonix NEED a buff so they could do full damage (2x10) to every air unit, that chronoboosted pheonix only take 17 sec to make and that it's not broken at all. Clearly you didn't play the game enough. Chrono boost doesn't work that way either.
Another guy said that 2.25 speed is MOBILE.
2.25 is the speed of hydras off creep bro :/ it's not exactly much better than the terran army.
Anyway, carry on.
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On May 06 2011 03:01 space_yes wrote:
Silver protoss here and I agree 100%. Furthermore I don't understand why terran buildings don't have energy. Liftoff should cost mana IMO so I can have a counter to liftoff. Also, EMP is OP and should require the terran player to hit a 6-key alphanumeric key combination to execute. I think hellions are too powerful vs zealots. Possibly what blizz needs to do is make hellions cost some gas that way the terran cant mass them so easily. Finally colossus need an air attack. Colossus cost so much gas but can't defend themselves verse vikings.
No I actually think Collossus are overpowered and they're completely destroying the game. They should only have 4 range... upgradable to 6 range and should be both light, armored and massive so that they can take bonus damage from all units.
Storm is way too powerful and should be nerfed. It should have a casting range of 5 so that marines at least have some sort of chance of shooting the templar before it gets the storm off. Storm shouldn't counter marines so hard. Marines are the key component of any Terran army and should be a lot more robust.
Warpgate is also making timing attacks way too powerful for Protoss against Terrans. I'm glad they're nerfing it 20 seconds... but I don't know why they're reverting it. It should be 180 seconds at least. I actually think 240 seconds would be more appropriate for the strength that it gives...and why is blizzard making sentries take 5 seconds less to build? The problem is the warpgate, not the gateway units.
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EPT
