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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 23:36 ridonkulous wrote:
probably know mechanics better than you, ultralisk is immune and the only massive unit it would be worth using is colossus but u wont be able to do that since u should never be in range, also everybody who read few last pages sees how biased toward toss you are, few pages ago u tried to convince us how thors are unstoppable in pvt where its definately not the case,
Now u changed the tune and try to convince us the change doesnt affect thors at all where this also definately isnt true, seriously how blind u have to be to not recognize how thors without this skill would be better that with current strike cannon "upgrade"
It's sort of sad how unwilling people are to just admit to making a mistake.
Thors without strike cannon are trash. Maybe they're less trashy than Thors with 250mm + energy, maybe not. Doesn't really matter.
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Well it kind of does matter in this Thread doesn't it ?
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Maybe fungal should do less damage (say 15%) to armored units. Kind of like storm is less effective against roaches and marauders.
Love,
Diamond Zerg player
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On May 05 2011 23:41 aeyr wrote:
Maybe fungal should do less damage (say 15%) to armored units. Kind of like storm is less effective against roaches and marauders.
Love,
Diamond Zerg player
Well they did do it to Buff Infestors in the first place . I think it should deal less damage to Air units . Its kinda hard to Counter Infestor Broodlord now since you Vikings will die pretty easy to fungals.
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Raven banshee thor marine SCV allin is sooo strong in PvT atm. This thor change may help + terran can just add ghost (cost change is a little buff imho) and it comes to micro EMP vs feedback .....
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On May 05 2011 23:38 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 23:36 ridonkulous wrote:
probably know mechanics better than you, ultralisk is immune and the only massive unit it would be worth using is colossus but u wont be able to do that since u should never be in range, also everybody who read few last pages sees how biased toward toss you are, few pages ago u tried to convince us how thors are unstoppable in pvt where its definately not the case,
Now u changed the tune and try to convince us the change doesnt affect thors at all where this also definately isnt true, seriously how blind u have to be to not recognize how thors without this skill would be better that with current strike cannon "upgrade" It's sort of sad how unwilling people are to just admit to making a mistake. Thors without strike cannon are trash. Maybe they're less trashy than Thors with 250mm + energy, maybe not. Doesn't really matter. yea i admit of being lazy and writing all massive because i didnt want to explain what i just wrote in my previous post, dont care if belive me or not.
besides i dont even know why i keep answering to u when u already lost all your credibility writing thors are unstoppable and all the bs theorycrafting earlier lol...
calling thors trash convinced me even more in my opinion about you, FYI they work very well vs zerg and nobody ever upgrades strike cannon, vs protoss almost nobody used them so its hard to say but 150 mana cost and alot bigger vulnerability against ht doesnt make for strike cannon which you probably wont be able to cast because of time u need to build mana .(or if u do, they will get feedbacked anyway)
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On May 05 2011 22:34 harhar! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 21:25 Rorschach wrote:On May 05 2011 18:07 Wyk wrote:On May 05 2011 17:14 dogmatix wrote:
make feedback do 100 energy max too in my humble opinion Hey guys, dont skip this post! Yes lets gimp the toss spell caster even more. WHY would they ever make feedback only take 100 energy? Because the ghost drains max 100? Don't forget that the EMP drains mana/sheilds and is AOE whereas feedback targets a SINGLE unit. Make it area of effect like EMP and I will agree with you until then quite spouting nonsensical ideas... dude its pretty stupid to compare feedback and emp. both casters have one singletarget and one aoespell so why do you compare them like that?
Stupid to compare them? The two caster were practically built/designed with each others race in mind! Emp/sheilds relationship makes it an ability geared specifically towards toss units and Terran has so many units with energy/mana that feedback is great against terran!
EMP comes with ghosts whereas Templar have to research their AOE spell.
Also in case you didn't notice the thick sarcasm in my post was that it would be retarded to make feedback AOE like EMP.
The statement was in response to the poster who said feedback should have a mana burn/damage cap of 100 like EMP. I stated the obvious by saying that EMP was AOE versus feedback which only is a single target spell.
Making it 100 mana burn cap would nerf it hard in all its uses not just the new thor. Terran need to quit QQ about this change, there was far less bitching from toss with the removal of amulet which was a HUGE change to toss....
Anyway back to the point, you read what I said out of context and you really should take the time to read OP/Quoted part of the post or don't bother posting a response.....
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The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg?
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You want my honest opinion , for me personally i won't even matter since i don't use Thors much in TvP now other then sometimes meching. After the Patch i won't use them at all and be fine with it. And probably most Terrans will do that. Just kinda sad that the Unit will not be build anymore in a MU. It's not all that amazing now ( it can be good don't get me wrong ) but the alternatives are easier to play and in most cases stronger. With the Patch most alternatives most definitly will be better so theres no point in building them other then i like Thors. Which is kinda sad .
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On May 05 2011 23:43 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 23:41 aeyr wrote:
Maybe fungal should do less damage (say 15%) to armored units. Kind of like storm is less effective against roaches and marauders.
Love,
Diamond Zerg player Well they did do it to Buff Infestors in the first place . I think it should deal less damage to Air units . Its kinda hard to Counter Infestor Broodlord now since you Vikings will die pretty easy to fungals.
Ghosts, EMP the infestors and snipe the Broodlords.
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On May 06 2011 00:05 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 23:43 s3rp wrote:On May 05 2011 23:41 aeyr wrote:
Maybe fungal should do less damage (say 15%) to armored units. Kind of like storm is less effective against roaches and marauders.
Love,
Diamond Zerg player Well they did do it to Buff Infestors in the first place . I think it should deal less damage to Air units . Its kinda hard to Counter Infestor Broodlord now since you Vikings will die pretty easy to fungals. Ghosts, EMP the infestors and snipe the Broodlords.
Still not all that easy. Even with Ghosts . And i build Ghosts once i see the first Infestor. Snipe good against Broodlord unless its more then 5-6 of them . You won't have enough Ghost for Sniping anymore.
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On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg?
Battlecruisers counter Thors. Yamaton bäm bäm dead Thors. ^^
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On May 05 2011 23:35 TRG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 23:27 TimeSpiral wrote:On May 05 2011 23:10 TRG wrote:On May 05 2011 23:00 TimeSpiral wrote:Every time I read this thread I baulk at the inexplicable Protoss buffing. They've been trying to nerf the Infestor for ages now, but it never goes through ... It's not the Infestor that is the issue. It is Fungal Growth. The spell is broken and there is a bug that does not appear to be fixed either. The spell should be able to hit but not snare (hold) air units. It makes no sense, and is ridiculously OP. + Show Spoiler [This will spoil TLO vs Spanishiwa] +Spanishiwa knew about this bug and managed to killed about 40 SCVs instantly and TLO never knew it because FG does not give an "under attack" warning ... lol. So ridiculous. Ages? Really? You must be joking. Zerg has been given one viable/powerful unit. If you want to talk about people complaining about a unit for ages, look at the Colossus. Fungal growth is not op. Learn how to micro and split up your units both air and ground and it'll be less effective. You don't ball up your units to engage a high templar now do you? Don't complain about a unit or ability because of your lack of micro. Calm down, bratha. No need to drop the "l2p" bomb, lol. I will elaborate, for your benefit. They've [Blizzard] been trying to nerf the Infestor for ages [Several Months] now [as evident by the various changes in PTRs that were all revoked: does not hit air units, projectile, and now the movement speed] Then somewhere along the line they switched gears and decided to buff it 0_o Don't come in here claiming that "Zerg has been given one viable/powerful unit," and then follow it up by telling your Terran and Protoss opponents to l2p, lol. You've essentially discredited yourself in one post. Ironic considering most options in dealing with units and abilities rely on tactics and strategy. If you want to ignore the fact that an AOE ability relies on the opponent not splitting his army, then continue QQing about fungal growth. Zerg had to learn to micro/split banelings just as efficiently as Terran did with mass marine. If you'd like to go down unit for unit comparison, it's obvious Zerg has the least viable units. Meanwhile Terran sits on one of the most powerful units in the game which just happens to be available at tier 1. And let's not forget Zerg relies on the ability to surround an army, but the many chokes and lack of open area in SC2 tends to negate this option. As for the Infestor, wrong again. Blizzard was trying to find a purpsoe/function for it and its abilities. It wasn't powerful enough to replace banelings, and infested terran failed to be effective anti air. They've finally given Zerg an option other than mutalisks for dealing with air units and map control. It's awesome how Terran and Protoss sit back and mock Zergs over complaining, but with one unit change, all the sudden you cry Zerg OP.
Are you even reading what you're responding to, or are you just waiting for your turn to talk?
I'm not going to continue a conversation where the other person is just waiting for their turn to pull random statements out of a hat, largely ignoring everything that's being said previously.
Now, you did address the purpose behind the Infestor changes and shared your reasoning (surprisingly enough). I simply disagree with your supposition that the changes I referred to were meant to change the Infestor's role. Removing the ability for fungal growth to hit air units and making the cast method a projectile are both nerfs, they are not "tweaks to try and re-purpose the unit." It seemed pretty clear at that point that Fungal Growth was too strong.
The last change, regarding stun duration, DPS, and +armored buff, was certainly designed to redefine the Infestor's role, as stated by Blizzard directly:
Zerg
Fungal Growth stun duration decreased from 8 to 4 seconds.
Fungal Growth damage increased by +30% vs. armored units.
Both of the Fungal Growth changes were mainly made to address a ZvZ issue with mutalisk vs. infestor, and to make infestors more useful vs. protoss. For mutalisks, we found they were just not useful enough in ZvZ due to the Fungal Growth stun duration being too long. So, the duration was reduced to make them a bit more viable in the ZvZ matchup. This reduction in stun duration means the damage goes in faster. However, we realized that mutalisks suffer mostly due to stuns combined with hydralisks shooting from below. As for infestors themselves, we found they weren’t that useful vs. protoss. We wanted to solve both of these issues while keeping infestors as powerful as they are vs. terran. Fungal Growth’s damage itself wasn’t as big of a problem as the stun, so we decided to go with this change so that the stun duration reduction is somewhat countered by the damage buff.
The +30% armored damage change was more strictly targeted towards stalker-based protoss armies, as well as marauder-based terran armies. We wanted infestors to be more of a core unit in the ZvP matchup while keeping them just as useful vs. terran. The stun duration reduction change by itself didn’t allow these two things, so we had to make this damage change as well in order to arrive at the right place for the infestor.
~http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/2566610#blog
So many of the points you're trying to make, which are not relevant to the discussion points I initiated, seem so silly. Statements like this, "They've finally given Zerg an option other than mutalisks for dealing with air units and map control," don't even make sense. Zerg has had the Infestor since day one. It is not a new unit. More/better anti-air? Map control? Are you being serious or am I getting trolled hard?
I'm tempted to just delete this whole post ... You can engage the points I brought up, or we're done. I'm not going to take this troll-bait any longer.
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On May 05 2011 23:52 ridonkulous wrote:
*inane insults*
Grow up.
FYI they work very well vs zerg and nobody ever upgrades strike cannon, vs protoss almost nobody used them so its hard to say but 150 mana cost and alot bigger vulnerability against ht doesnt make for strike cannon which you probably wont be able to cast because of time u need to build mana .(or if u do, they will get feedbacked anyway)
I was not talking about TvZ, because 250mm is an irrelevance in that matchup. This change affects it in no way.
In PvT, Thors are trash without 250mm. Thors with 250mm and mana are probably trash. If I were Terran I'd pick the latter.
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Why ? With the cost the ability gets i will rarely be able to use it . I might as well not have it and don't get countered by the Units that also counters just about anything I can build anyway. Mix in some Thors when the Opponent is playing HT heavy is ok . Might force him to build some Immortal that aren't all that great against my other stuff. Now he'll just build more of what he's building anyway . Kind of defeats the purpose ? I mean there's Ghosts and HT's and thats fine but why does the MU have to Center about these two Units in the Lategame. Doesn't make it any exciting if you already now what going to happen.
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On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg?
The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack.
Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything.
250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack.
Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack.
The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league.
The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it.
The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better.
Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either.
The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs.
Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost.
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I think we're maybe hitting on the point that a unit with 400 hp that can be auto-repaired by 7 scvs at once and that does more damage than a thor's strike cannons against any armour type just by auto-attacking at above average range, is maybe poorly designed.
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On May 06 2011 00:37 Resistentialism wrote:
I think we're maybe hitting on the point that a unit with 400 hp that can be auto-repaired by 7 scvs at once and that does more damage than a thor's strike cannons against any armour type just by auto-attacking at above average range, is maybe poorly designed.
I think we been hitting on the point that a unit with 350 can traverse terrain and move at a mobile speed of 2.25 and can do a large amount of splash damage against any armor type by just auto attacking at siege range, is maybe poorly designed
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On May 06 2011 00:37 Resistentialism wrote:
I think we're maybe hitting on the point that a unit with 400 hp that can be auto-repaired by 7 scvs at once and that does more damage than a thor's strike cannons against any armour type just by auto-attacking at above average range, is maybe poorly designed.
Are you serious?
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Of course its poorly designed . Just like several other Units, but that won't change in just a Patch. That has to be done with one of the Addons. Now we're at the Point where it has to be figured out how to make the poorly designed Units not be completely worthless or overpowered.
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EPT
