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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost.
Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either.
However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors.
It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution.
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On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution.
There is just no excuse for why a masters level protoss should be letting their colossus get strike cannoned by thors. Thors are incredibly slow, if you manage to get flanked by thors, there is something seriously wrong with your scouting. In a battle the extra 2 range is totally insurmountable because of the wall of chargelots that are also a decent response to heavy thors on their own. The use of strike cannons with zealots in the mix is incredibly risky as it generally results in your thor spinning in circles doing nothing. Once your zealots are dead, if your a good protoss there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to kite with your ranged units, terran have to do kiting micro all the time, its not that hard. Thus the only unit which strike cannons are used against in practise is the immortal (and from my experience, sloppy protoss who towards the end of the battle don't kite). This change basically allows protoss to completely hard counter thors with cheaper and lower supply units - AS well as making HT tech much more viable against mech (so now really strong against every Terran tech path - sounds fair.
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Ghost-mech is economically viable now. That is a ridiculously strong composition against any Toss ground army, which I think is the motivation behind the Thor nerf.
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On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution.
EMP Thors in TvT ? Lol Thors suck in TvT there's no reason to build Ghosts to EMP Thors since Thors suck anyways. Thors suck vs Tanks , masses of Bio and BC's . Unless you Thorrush which also sucks once the opponent has 1-2 Tanks and isn't brain afk Thors have no purpose in TvT. Soon also in TvP .
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On May 06 2011 00:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Ghost-mech is economically viable now. That is a ridiculously strong composition against any Toss ground army, which I think is the motivation behind the Thor nerf.
Ghostmech is stronger without Thors. Is now will be and was before . You may build 1-2 to block a choke but thats about it. You mostly rely on Tanks and Helions .
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On May 05 2011 23:43 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 23:41 aeyr wrote:
Maybe fungal should do less damage (say 15%) to armored units. Kind of like storm is less effective against roaches and marauders.
Love,
Diamond Zerg player Well they did do it to Buff Infestors in the first place . I think it should deal less damage to Air units . Its kinda hard to Counter Infestor Broodlord now since you Vikings will die pretty easy to fungals.
The fungal buff was here to help against VR too in the first place..
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On May 06 2011 00:57 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution. There is just no excuse for why a masters level protoss should be letting their colossus get strike cannoned by thors. Thors are incredibly slow, if you manage to get flanked by thors, there is something seriously wrong with your scouting. In a battle the extra 2 range is totally insurmountable because of the wall of chargelots that are also a decent response to heavy thors on their own. The use of strike cannons with zealots in the mix is incredibly risky as it generally results in your thor spinning in circles doing nothing. Once your zealots are dead, if your a good protoss there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to kite with your ranged units, terran have to do kiting micro all the time, its not that hard. Thus the only unit which strike cannons are used against in practise is the immortal (and from my experience, sloppy protoss who towards the end of the battle don't kite). This change basically allows protoss to completely hard counter thors with cheaper and lower supply units - AS well as making HT tech much more viable against mech (so now really strong against every Terran tech path - sounds fair.
If by "completely counter" you mean that you now need ghosts to EMP their HT then I agree with you! Making SC2 a little bit more about options and micro and less about "haha, my death ball stomps your death ball" is a good thing imo.
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Let's consider that not everyone is a masters league player... I understand that we want to watch and play good games at our level, but blizzard can't leave out the possibility of its other leagues and casual players.
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On May 06 2011 01:01 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution. EMP Thors in TvT ? Lol Thors suck in TvT there's no reason to build Ghosts to EMP Thors since Thors suck anyways. Thors suck vs Tanks , masses of Bio and BC's . Unless you Thorrush which also sucks once the opponent has 1-2 Tanks and isn't brain afk Thors have no purpose in TvT. Soon also in TvP .
Thank you captain obvious. My entire post was to point out that strike cannons are only useful in TvP. As for your ideas about the future of TvP, your pessimism is astounding.
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On May 06 2011 01:11 Zhou wrote:
Let's consider that not everyone is a masters league player... I understand that we want to watch and play good games at our level, but blizzard can't leave out the possibility of its other leagues and casual players.
At which level good feedbacks are about as infrequent as good EMPs and the thor change has no effect whatsoever?
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On May 06 2011 01:10 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 00:57 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution. There is just no excuse for why a masters level protoss should be letting their colossus get strike cannoned by thors. Thors are incredibly slow, if you manage to get flanked by thors, there is something seriously wrong with your scouting. In a battle the extra 2 range is totally insurmountable because of the wall of chargelots that are also a decent response to heavy thors on their own. The use of strike cannons with zealots in the mix is incredibly risky as it generally results in your thor spinning in circles doing nothing. Once your zealots are dead, if your a good protoss there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to kite with your ranged units, terran have to do kiting micro all the time, its not that hard. Thus the only unit which strike cannons are used against in practise is the immortal (and from my experience, sloppy protoss who towards the end of the battle don't kite). This change basically allows protoss to completely hard counter thors with cheaper and lower supply units - AS well as making HT tech much more viable against mech (so now really strong against every Terran tech path - sounds fair. If by "completely counter" you mean that you now need ghosts to EMP their HT then I agree with you! Making SC2 a little bit more about options and micro and less about "haha, my death ball stomps your death ball" is a good thing imo.
Here's the thing it will be alot easier to not build Thors and play different stuff . Thors right now are not good in big battles . Won't change with the Patch. It'll just kill the Thor pushes. If the Units isn't good in big Battles and can't really be used in Pushes why build it at all. Marauders are Cheaper and just as good , probably even better against Amored and are way more mobile. They even have the same Armor. And for the Price of 1 Thor i can get 3 Mauraders and still have 125 Gas left. They also have only 25 HP less when you combine them.
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On May 06 2011 01:13 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:10 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:57 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution. There is just no excuse for why a masters level protoss should be letting their colossus get strike cannoned by thors. Thors are incredibly slow, if you manage to get flanked by thors, there is something seriously wrong with your scouting. In a battle the extra 2 range is totally insurmountable because of the wall of chargelots that are also a decent response to heavy thors on their own. The use of strike cannons with zealots in the mix is incredibly risky as it generally results in your thor spinning in circles doing nothing. Once your zealots are dead, if your a good protoss there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to kite with your ranged units, terran have to do kiting micro all the time, its not that hard. Thus the only unit which strike cannons are used against in practise is the immortal (and from my experience, sloppy protoss who towards the end of the battle don't kite). This change basically allows protoss to completely hard counter thors with cheaper and lower supply units - AS well as making HT tech much more viable against mech (so now really strong against every Terran tech path - sounds fair. If by "completely counter" you mean that you now need ghosts to EMP their HT then I agree with you! Making SC2 a little bit more about options and micro and less about "haha, my death ball stomps your death ball" is a good thing imo. Here's the thing it will be alot easier to not build Thors and play different stuff . Thors right now are not good in big battles . Won't change with the Patch. It'll just kill the Thor pushes.
That's your opinion. My opinion is that Thors are currently useful in moderation in both TvP and TvZ, both for different reasons. In TvP they are borderline overpowered, because they can get an ability that allows them to roflstomp the unit that *should* hardcounter them. This change rectifies that and allows micro battles to ensue!
EDIT: ah, you edited your post to be more informative. Well, marauders have their own counters. When faced with a large force of colossi, thors fare considerably better than marauders. Being able to a-move into a colossus/stalker army as terran is quite an interesting ability that marauder/viking simply doen't have. Are marauders, overall, a better unit than thors? I would agree with you there. But that's not the same as saying thors are useless. I would argue that mutalisks overall are a better unit than hydras, but hydras have their niche.
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On May 06 2011 01:13 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:11 Zhou wrote:
Let's consider that not everyone is a masters league player... I understand that we want to watch and play good games at our level, but blizzard can't leave out the possibility of its other leagues and casual players. At which level good feedbacks are about as infrequent as good EMPs and the thor change has no effect whatsoever?
I don't mean it in that sense. I meant that we should be looking at it through Blizzard's lens, and try to blend it in with ours. I just think some people are hitting these units too hard expecting it to perform a certain way in that form.
From what I've read so far, I can say that I think that the ability needs work itself like other people have said, not the energy cost.
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On May 06 2011 01:18 Zhou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:13 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 01:11 Zhou wrote:
Let's consider that not everyone is a masters league player... I understand that we want to watch and play good games at our level, but blizzard can't leave out the possibility of its other leagues and casual players. At which level good feedbacks are about as infrequent as good EMPs and the thor change has no effect whatsoever? I don't mean it in that sense. I meant that we should be looking at it through Blizzard's lens, and try to blend it in with ours. I just think some people are hitting these units too hard expecting it to perform a certain way in that form. From what I've read so far, I can say that I think that the ability needs work itself like other people have said, not the energy cost.
That's why I want a situation report the one that they always give
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On May 06 2011 01:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:13 s3rp wrote:On May 06 2011 01:10 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:57 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution. There is just no excuse for why a masters level protoss should be letting their colossus get strike cannoned by thors. Thors are incredibly slow, if you manage to get flanked by thors, there is something seriously wrong with your scouting. In a battle the extra 2 range is totally insurmountable because of the wall of chargelots that are also a decent response to heavy thors on their own. The use of strike cannons with zealots in the mix is incredibly risky as it generally results in your thor spinning in circles doing nothing. Once your zealots are dead, if your a good protoss there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to kite with your ranged units, terran have to do kiting micro all the time, its not that hard. Thus the only unit which strike cannons are used against in practise is the immortal (and from my experience, sloppy protoss who towards the end of the battle don't kite). This change basically allows protoss to completely hard counter thors with cheaper and lower supply units - AS well as making HT tech much more viable against mech (so now really strong against every Terran tech path - sounds fair. If by "completely counter" you mean that you now need ghosts to EMP their HT then I agree with you! Making SC2 a little bit more about options and micro and less about "haha, my death ball stomps your death ball" is a good thing imo. Here's the thing it will be alot easier to not build Thors and play different stuff . Thors right now are not good in big battles . Won't change with the Patch. It'll just kill the Thor pushes. That's your opinion. My opinion is that Thors are currently useful in moderation in both TvP and TvZ, both for different reasons. In TvP they are borderline overpowered, because they can get an ability that allows them to roflstomp the unit that *should* hardcounter them. This change rectifies that and allows micro battles to ensue!
If they removed the Strike Cannon Ability it would have but they didn't . They gave the Thor Energy and made the Strike Cannon Ability almost never useable . Thats a double Nerf that wasn't necceary.
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Strike cannon is still usable. HTs didn't even come onto the field until late late game in TvP even with the amulet. Without amulet, HTs were almost non-existent. Protoss typically went Robo->Robo Bay->Council -> Templar tech. Thors with strike cannon can be on the field much earlier than HT.
This patch is an HT buff. Blizzard doesn't want HTs to have the amulet, but they also don't want them to disappear from the matchup. HTs have disappeared from the matchup and that's why Blizzard is trying to bring them back.
Re:counters. Every unit and ability has to have a clear counter. Why? Because that's what casual gamers understand. Remember, this game is made for the casual gamer and will always be made for the casual gamer. Blizzard will consider how fun the game is for the casual gamer when balancing.
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On May 05 2011 21:25 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 18:07 Wyk wrote:On May 05 2011 17:14 dogmatix wrote:
make feedback do 100 energy max too in my humble opinion Hey guys, dont skip this post! Yes lets gimp the toss spell caster even more. WHY would they ever make feedback only take 100 energy? Because the ghost drains max 100? Don't forget that the EMP drains mana/sheilds and is AOE whereas feedback targets a SINGLE unit. Make it area of effect like EMP and I will agree with you until then quite spouting nonsensical ideas...
Don't forget feedback deals damage and often times out right kills the unit as well. Not saying 100 energy max should happen but simply pointing out the flaw in logic.
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On May 06 2011 01:18 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2011 01:13 s3rp wrote:On May 06 2011 01:10 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:57 statikg wrote:On May 06 2011 00:44 Acrofales wrote:On May 06 2011 00:26 Thezzy wrote:On May 06 2011 00:02 Zhou wrote:
The comparison of the yamato cannon and the 250mm strike cannons isn't favoring anything.
The yamato cannon does cost less energy, deals 300 damage straight up within 2 seconds and because the battlecruiser is a flying unit, a bit more mobile than the thor. They both have the same moving speed. It's research time is 60 seconds, but it takes longer to get to in terms of teching up and having enough battlecruisers out (90 seconds each) and having a larger dump of econ into them.
The 250mm cannon takes a lot longer to research, but is lower than the yamato cannon tier, and thors are a just a tad bit cheaper. Again, it can also still stun and take out any ground unit within its time. I also believe this counts the ultralisk (Never seen it, because its not great in TvZ in my own opinion).
The other thing to consider is that the battlecruiser has a second upgrade that gives it an initial 25 energy once it hits the playfield and costs the same amount as the yamato cannon, taking 60 seconds less. Teching to a battlecruiser is far more time consuming, and economically consuming than a thor would be.
Both of them serve different purposes for certain matchups. A thor I think still is that tank unit blizzard intended it to be. It's immobile serve purpose would primarily be anti-air, but does very well as a ground unit too. A battlecruiser is that other supportive unit that won't let that one target get away by shooting a giant energy beam at it. On ladder games I watch, I see that it's also mostly used to take down important buildings.
I think they both have a similar role, but different ways of going about it. Also consider what is better in certain matchups. It is funny though, a battlecruiser is supposed to counter a thor. :O
A bit off from what I was discussing before, I think it's weird not many people are talking about the 4gate change since that would change the most disappointing matchup. Now that sentries are the only unit that has a decreased time, perhaps people won't be so afraid that the patch will cause 2gate pushes in the beginning specifically against playing zerg? The main difference between Yamato and the Thor's ability is how it compares to their own auto-attack and what they can attack. Using Yamato, you can insta-snipe something like a Pylon or a Missile Turret from long range, or a unit. It can hit anything. 250mm however, whilst lower in the tech tree and the Thor being a little more accessible, does less damage in its duration than the auto-attack. Meaning you do more damage to any building or unit by just using the regular attack. The stun is nearly worthless, any unit with less than 200-300hp would die to the auto attack or the ability too fast. And any unit with 400hp or more are out of the Thor's league. The Colossus has range 9 and thus should never get hit by it. The Ultralisk is immune to the stun and thus auto-attack is better. Any other big units are airborne and thus can't be hit either. The ability itself needs work, not how to obtain it or how much energy it needs. Either the duration needs to be drastically shortened (but keep the same damage) so you can DPS stuff, or it needs a range boost. Well... as far as I can see, strike cannons are used against protoss. Against Zerg they have no real use (except maybe against mass queens... can't transfuse if you're stunned). In a mirror thors with strike cannons will beat thors without. Other than that I dont see much use for them in a TvT either. However, in a TvP they are very very useful: immortals destroy thors without strike cannons, but with strike cannons, immortals become completely useless against thors. A similar argument can be made for colossi: sure, colossi at max range are out of range, but a flank, or medivac drop of thors somewhere in range allows you to STUN the colossus, while dealing your normal amount of damage to it. Protoss had no useful way to counter thors' strike cannons and thus this one unit basically countered the entire robo tech path. This simple change fixes that balance: high templar can now be included and with proper micro feedback the thors. It changes nothing to TvZ (zerg has no casters that interfere with energy) and TvT ghosts can be used to emp thors, which is only really useful in a mass Thor vs. mass Thor battle (which I have seen exactly never). So arguing the use and non-use of strike cannons with or without energy is ONLY useful in a TvP context and I think the recent matches in which Thors have been (ab)used vs. protoss show that strike cannons are awesome in TvP. Giving protoss a chance at countering this seems like a natural solution. There is just no excuse for why a masters level protoss should be letting their colossus get strike cannoned by thors. Thors are incredibly slow, if you manage to get flanked by thors, there is something seriously wrong with your scouting. In a battle the extra 2 range is totally insurmountable because of the wall of chargelots that are also a decent response to heavy thors on their own. The use of strike cannons with zealots in the mix is incredibly risky as it generally results in your thor spinning in circles doing nothing. Once your zealots are dead, if your a good protoss there is no reason why you shouldnt be able to kite with your ranged units, terran have to do kiting micro all the time, its not that hard. Thus the only unit which strike cannons are used against in practise is the immortal (and from my experience, sloppy protoss who towards the end of the battle don't kite). This change basically allows protoss to completely hard counter thors with cheaper and lower supply units - AS well as making HT tech much more viable against mech (so now really strong against every Terran tech path - sounds fair. If by "completely counter" you mean that you now need ghosts to EMP their HT then I agree with you! Making SC2 a little bit more about options and micro and less about "haha, my death ball stomps your death ball" is a good thing imo. Here's the thing it will be alot easier to not build Thors and play different stuff . Thors right now are not good in big battles . Won't change with the Patch. It'll just kill the Thor pushes. That's your opinion. My opinion is that Thors are currently useful in moderation in both TvP and TvZ, both for different reasons. In TvP they are borderline overpowered, because they can get an ability that allows them to roflstomp the unit that *should* hardcounter them. This change rectifies that and allows micro battles to ensue! EDIT: ah, you edited your post to be more informative. Well, marauders have their own counters. When faced with a large force of colossi, thors fare considerably better than marauders. Being able to a-move into a colossus/stalker army as terran is quite an interesting ability that marauder/viking simply doen't have. Are marauders, overall, a better unit than thors? I would agree with you there. But that's not the same as saying thors are useless. I would argue that mutalisks overall are a better unit than hydras, but hydras have their niche.
Well Thors will have a niche but it'll be small , just like the other big Units . Besides well the Kolosus. They for some reason are allways a good unit sometimes amazing. If you wanna put big Units in a niche , fine but do it likewise with all of them.
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On May 06 2011 01:35 randplaty wrote:
Strike cannon is still usable. HTs didn't even come onto the field until late late game in TvP even with the amulet. Without amulet, HTs were almost non-existent. Protoss typically went Robo->Robo Bay->Council -> Templar tech. Thors with strike cannon can be on the field much earlier than HT.
With the Thors havng to regenrate 100 Energy to use the Ability probably not , a bit ealier maybe theres a small window but after that you can just stop building Thors at all.
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EPT
