Patch 1.3.3 PTR - Page 101

Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully.

Klive5ive

United Kingdom6056 Posts

April 26 2011 22:24 GMT

#2001

I've been pretty impressed with Blizzard patches so far. This one seems a little odd though.

We already tried quick production from gateways and we had really powerful proxy gate all-ins and powerful 2-gating. It was alright but ultimately the game was better without.
Now we've worked out all the timings is it really necessary to go back to that? :/
The pylon range decrease and archon change are enough really. Perhaps add increased damage to units as they warp in and just see how it goes.

Integra

Sweden5626 Posts

April 26 2011 22:25 GMT

#2002

On April 27 2011 07:16 Roxy wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 27 2011 07:06 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:55 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:49 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:41 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:36 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:32 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:28 StarscreamG1 wrote:
Protoss players will pray a lot for Colossus before stim timing. Blizzard needs to understand once and for all the problem with PvZ late game is because the s**** Tier 2 Zerg units. Stop touching Terran and Protoss

i can't tell what you were saying exactly, but if you were trying to say that T2 zerg is not good, you are wrong

T2 zerg absolutely destroy T1 and T2 protoss.. T3 is the only viable option protoss has vs zerg.

Roaches are faster, do more damage, and are cheaper than stalkers
Burrowed roaches heal about as fast as damage can be dealt to them

Hydras do more DPS than stalkers but without the insane overkill

Zerglings are also > stalkers

The onyl thing on that list that zealots are better than are zerglings.

Aren't you forgetting Immortals, voidray, sentries, or do you count those a tier3, as in you can get them as the same time as collosi/carriers/templars?

Roaches for cost are better than immortals
Zergligns are better than immortals
Hydras are better than immortals

Hydras can kill void rays (and any T1/T2 unit for cost)
Zergling/Roach not comparable to voids as can not attack them. I would not get voids vs zerglings though. and we can see from TSL that mondragonw as able to beat mass voids with roaches

sentreis are good for creating positional benefits, but do damage = to wet noodle slapping you across the face

That's funny because I've beaten a pure roach army every time I've gone mass immortals, I can't recall a single game against zerg or as zerg where a pure roach army beat a protoss army that had the majority of immortals in it. Immortals also kill hydras pretty dammn well. this gets even worse if Protoss mixes in a few sentries with guardian shield.

may I ask what league you are in? because if you go mass immortal and they switch to lings or mutas, you are pretty screwed. immortal/stalker/ht was an alright strategy back before templars were turned into fodder, but this strategy is nearly non-existant now

Im not saying roaches are incredibly powerful at teh 20 minute mark, im talking about the mid game attacks where you are prevented from taking a 3rd and before you have colosus out.

Roaches can come in and snipe whatever building they want and then burrow to run away from the FFs

Roaches give complete map control to the zerg and you cannot move out until you have at least 3 collosus with range and an obs and enough fodder to prevent them from sniping the colosus

roaches are very effective if they keep sending in suicide squads to take out what units you have. first attack will be maybe 12 roaches vs 12 stalker/sentry.. then 8 roaches vs the remaining 8 stalker/sentry.. then 10 raoches vs 4 of what was left plus 4 warping in... then 12 roaches vs the 6 left of that 8 and then by the time they send their 4th wave you are screwed

During Beta I was in diamond, ended up ranked 2 or 3 in my division as Terran, Then played Protoss and basically 4-5 warpgated myself to diamond again, After that I switched between protoss and Zerg allot, kept me in the diamond league top 50, when masters got introduced I got into that as well. After season 1 I ended up top 200 in europe, (top 196 according to sc2rankings.com) I'm now focusing on Zerg, I'm *only* top 10 diamond though due to not being able to play as much.

What you just talked about is not a sign of protoss T2 being weaker, it's just you meeting better players. There are plenty of protoss players that counters what you just described just fine with immortal/voidray/pheonix gameplay, along with photon cannon support. You just need good scouting and see when it comes.

As you are a higher rank than me, I feel i should bow out of the argument. if thats how u say it is it must just be my lower level thinking that is leading me to conclude otherwise

in games that I have played i've had a couple times where where it pretty much ended up like this:

I have gone mass immortal (2 robo) / stalker (4 gate) with quick 2/0/0 upgrades vs speed roaches (only speed roaches).

i did not harass at all as I did not feel I was able to (did not get air tech, went straight for robo/immortal as my holucinations saw only roaches)

when the 2/0/0 kicks in i push out and i kill his entire army with a small force remaining. then i run back to regroup (as i do not have a critical mass of untis anymore) and then their second attack just runs over me.

I had that problem too when I got into middle diamond against zerg. What I did was that I extended my scouting and harass, I started to put out proxy pylons in places that were close to where zerg might expand.

Once I got into the middle game I simply started to harass randomly warping in Darktemplars to harass his expansions. It really helped me to keep the zerg busy, instead of attacking my base on multiple locations or mass drone the whole map he had to defend his bases from DT warpins by either take a portion of his army to defend or make defensive structures.

He also had to spread his overlords to find my proxy pylons, which gave me the chance to kill them with phenoixes. When the zerg made sporecrawlers/spinecrawlers I would simply load up a immortal in to a warprism and use it to take down any defensive structure the zerg had. this kind of gameplay forces zerg to have groundtroops at every expansion or allot of defensive structure.

In any case the outcome is a more defensive zerg that has allot more trouble running free with "map control" taking over the whole map.

JustAGame

Germany161 Posts

April 26 2011 22:27 GMT

#2003

i couldnt read it all, but i just guess no one thought about the less obvious changes..
(this is not about balance, just about the REAL changes behind it and the possible results)

PvZ:
Hallucination will be out way later which will make PvZ scouting impossible early on.
Cannon rush wont be seen as much same as 4 gating against the zerg which will take away 2 more viable builds in this match up. Hatch first will be very risky now, so maybe this wont be seen any more as well. Builds that delay the core ( Nexus first, FFE) are nerfed as well and might have trouble against roach bust or other all ins.

PvT:
Ghost change will allow Mech+Ghosts in TvP. How did Toss players handle this ? They 4Gate before the first thor showes up, which wont happen any more.

Extra chronoboost needed to get WG tech out will result in one less probe. WG gave toss a way to get the units he needs a little faster early on. e.g. : Sentry dies = warp in a sentry etc. Taking this away will actually slightly buff a lot of early terran rushes.

The reduced build time of the stalker will nerf reapers even more.

Early stalker builds are faster and might be hard to deal with for some early expansion builds.

PvP:
The toss who decides to not use chrono on his WG tech will now be 20 more seconds behind than before the patch.
This might allow to get immortals out in time to deal with a 4 gate. But after all. Its not much of a change. Since after the patch there will still be only one or two viable builds in PvP (my guess is: 3 gate robo and proxy 2gate ). This match was fast and micro intensive before, it will be turtle or cheese play after, which is even more boring.

There are some interesting games to watch, but i even turned off TSL after a while (and as i compare the viewers from RO32 to RO8 i am not the only one) because SC2 is always the same. There are only 1 or 2 viable builds in each match up, always the same late game transitions, and from there on the game does feel like someone hit the repeat button ( remember sen vs boxer which felt like an endless repeat of the same 20 marines and 3 tanks moving out)

Blizzard is really doing well at destroying SC2 and the e-sports scene around it. I wonder how much more is needed to give it the final blow.

NgrySqrrl

Canada36 Posts

April 26 2011 22:29 GMT

#2004

On April 27 2011 04:40 TerranHater wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 27 2011 04:20 plated.rawr wrote:

On April 27 2011 03:58 DrunkApple wrote:

On April 27 2011 03:38 plated.rawr wrote:
I like these changes. Especially,

- Pylon range reduction, as it reduces the potency of across-gap proxy pylon warpins somewhat;
- Warpin time increase and regular production decrease, as it removes the early game warpin facerape while at the same time giving more chance for "honest" frontal attacks early on;
- Ghost gas change, as it allows for ghosts in more low gas builds, something that fits me, personally, very well

The rest of the changes are overall good. Nice patch!

Edit: Oh, and also - Bunkers were never "free", even with the 100% reclaim cost. 100 minerals spent, even temporarily, delays tech and macro. What you pay for with a bunker is time, which arguably is the most important resource in SC2. The difference between getting a rush out at time X or time X+30 is huge, and building bunkers because they're "free" will simply rape your timings.

That being said, I don't mind them yielding 75% rather than 100%. It's a pretty insignificant change.

free
/frē/
Verb: Make free, in particular.
Adverb: Without cost or payment: "ladies were admitted free".

100% refund --> free
75% refund --> not free
True that building bunkers delay tech, but that is called "Opportunity Cost", building bunker instead of teching up
It's like you are saying scanning costs mineral

in·fla·tion
[in-fley-shuhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).
2.
the act of inflating.
3.
the state of being inflated.

1.
Economics . a persistent, substantial rise in the general level of prices related to an increase in the volume of money and resulting in the loss of value of currency ( opposed to deflation).

and resulting in the loss of value of currency

loss of value of currency

Time = inflation = minerals less worth per unit = price payed.

So are you saying economy of Starcraft works like that of the real world?
Why are you bringing in micro macro economy into this?
I don't see any inflation of mineral value of units or buildings when I build bunkers
Dollar value may change every second but mineral value doesn't change or we'd be fucked if people are playing the game that is in Great Depression
If you don't understand economy, please don't say anything and make yourself look like an idiot

User was warned for this post

The value of your minerals does change within the game. early on, your minerals are worth way more than later on. spending money on something that may or may not help (bunkers) vs something that will help (workers) over the whole economy is the gamble here, not your net gain or loss on that specific incident.

Roxy

Canada753 Posts

April 26 2011 22:33 GMT

#2005

On April 27 2011 07:25 Integra wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 27 2011 07:16 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 07:06 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:55 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:49 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:41 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:36 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:32 Roxy wrote:

Aren't you forgetting Immortals, voidray, sentries, or do you count those a tier3, as in you can get them as the same time as collosi/carriers/templars?

I had that problem too when I got into middle diamond against zerg. What I did was that I extended my scouting and harass, I started to put out proxy pylons in places that were close to where zerg might expand.

Once I got into the middle game I simply started to harass randomly warping in Darktemplars to harass his expansions. It really helped me to keep the zerg busy, instead of attacking my base on multiple locations he had to defend his bases from DT warpins by either take a portion of his army to defend or make defensive structures.

He also had to spread his overlords to find my proxy pylons, which gave me the chance to kill them with phenoixes. When the zerg made sporecrawlers/spinecrawlers I would simply load up a immortal in to a warprism and use it to take down any defensive structure the zerg had. this kind of gameplay forces zerg to have groundtroops at every expansion or allot of defensive structure.

In any case the outcome is a more defensive zerg that has allot more trouble running free with "map control" taking over the whole map.

I have been resisting the stargate openings, but perhaps i should look into it after i'm sure my sentries and canons can hold onto my second base.

Cruncher has a pretty solid stargate strategy so maybe I will look into some of his replays

I like your ideas about the pylons/pheonix for map control - perhaps i will give that a try

also, to get back to the point i was trying to make before.. i wasn't trying to say that as a race zerg is overpowered. as I stated, i'm not scared of roaches at teh 20 minute mark. The problem is that i think they are a little dominant in the early game (as in the answer to too many early protoss units is "get roaches". - this may just be the result of a lack of other viable options for zerg to get: similar to how i feel about protoss stalkers.. they are good at everything, but great at nothing. i feel like i have no choice to get stalkers vs most stuff just because there is no better option.

Serantir

United States11 Posts

April 26 2011 22:34 GMT

#2006

I do like some of these changes, but I feel like protoss are getting quite harshly nerfed. The massive archon is good because you can now break forcefields/not get conc. shelled as much with a warp gate/templar ball. However, the warp gate time seems a little much, and the pylon radius thing is just inconvenient. I like the ghost change, I feel we'll see more early game ghosts as a result, and the spore crawler thing is pretty cool. But overall I feel toss are getting a little too nerfed when they are not exactly mega OP. 1st amulet and now gates ;(.

Khalleb

Canada1909 Posts

April 26 2011 22:37 GMT

#2007

On April 27 2011 07:27 JustAGame wrote:
i couldnt read it all, but i just guess no one thought about the less obvious changes..
(this is not about balance, just about the REAL changes behind it and the possible results)

PvZ:
Hallucination will be out way later which will make PvZ scouting impossible early on.
Cannon rush wont be seen as much same as 4 gating against the zerg which will take away 2 more viable builds in this match up. Hatch first will be very risky now, so maybe this wont be seen any more as well. Builds that delay the core ( Nexus first, FFE) are nerfed as well and might have trouble against roach bust or other all ins.

PvT:
Ghost change will allow Mech+Ghosts in TvP. How did Toss players handle this ? They 4Gate before the first thor showes up, which wont happen any more.

Extra chronoboost needed to get WG tech out will result in one less probe. WG gave toss a way to get the units he needs a little faster early on. e.g. : Sentry dies = warp in a sentry etc. Taking this away will actually slightly buff a lot of early terran rushes.

The reduced build time of the stalker will nerf reapers even more.

Early stalker builds are faster and might be hard to deal with for some early expansion builds.

PvP:
The toss who decides to not use chrono on his WG tech will now be 20 more seconds behind than before the patch.
This might allow to get immortals out in time to deal with a 4 gate. But after all. Its not much of a change. Since after the patch there will still be only one or two viable builds in PvP (my guess is: 3 gate robo and proxy 2gate ). This match was fast and micro intensive before, it will be turtle or cheese play after, which is even more boring.

There are some interesting games to watch, but i even turned off TSL after a while (and as i compare the viewers from RO32 to RO8 i am not the only one) because SC2 is always the same. There are only 1 or 2 viable builds in each match up, always the same late game transitions, and from there on the game does feel like someone hit the repeat button ( remember sen vs boxer which felt like an endless repeat of the same 20 marines and 3 tanks moving out)

Blizzard is really doing well at destroying SC2 and the e-sports scene around it. I wonder how much more is needed to give it the final blow.

hmmm, why every 1 thinking hallu will be later on? if you think about that, WG = GW in term of production, so why not getting hallu first since you wont miss a production circle since they are egal? so it will result a faster hallu instead of a slower hallu

Integra

Sweden5626 Posts

April 26 2011 22:37 GMT

#2008

On April 27 2011 07:33 Roxy wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 27 2011 07:25 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 07:16 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 07:06 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:55 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:49 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:41 Roxy wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:36 Integra wrote:

On April 27 2011 06:32 Roxy wrote:

Aren't you forgetting Immortals, voidray, sentries, or do you count those a tier3, as in you can get them as the same time as collosi/carriers/templars?

I had that problem too when I got into middle diamond against zerg. What I did was that I extended my scouting and harass, I started to put out proxy pylons in places that were close to where zerg might expand.

Once I got into the middle game I simply started to harass randomly warping in Darktemplars to harass his expansions. It really helped me to keep the zerg busy, instead of attacking my base on multiple locations he had to defend his bases from DT warpins by either take a portion of his army to defend or make defensive structures.

He also had to spread his overlords to find my proxy pylons, which gave me the chance to kill them with phenoixes. When the zerg made sporecrawlers/spinecrawlers I would simply load up a immortal in to a warprism and use it to take down any defensive structure the zerg had. this kind of gameplay forces zerg to have groundtroops at every expansion or allot of defensive structure.

In any case the outcome is a more defensive zerg that has allot more trouble running free with "map control" taking over the whole map.

You need to make a billion sentries early game and abuse forcefields ,just look at MC. If roaches were made weaker then forcefield gameplay would just roll Zerg. If you are talking about later game then you should have robotic facility....and immortals by that time.

TwoMagTrav

United States195 Posts

April 26 2011 22:38 GMT

#2009

On April 27 2011 00:14 Yaotzin wrote:

Show nested quote +

+ Show Spoiler +

Huk just lost to July. On that allegedly pro-protoss map Crossfire.

Mixing in Zerg buffs/Protoss nerfs with the warpgate changes would be stupid. If they plan on changes for PvZ they'll do it in a seperate patch, after this one has settled down.

Show nested quote +

Yes yes Zerg get bad scouting of an opponents base but great overall map awareness. Just how it is, unlikely to change.

I don't consider Huk a top protoss. =D I only think Zergs mostly hate crossfire on ZvT. Morrow beat MC on it but still got crushed in the series. I haven't seen the Huk game but I don't think his builds are good at all. Especially after watching Idra crush him over and over at MLG. I doubt they will do anything I'm just mostly QQing. I really don't want to have to worry about proxy gates and 2 gate even more.

What build did Huk do? Something risky like 3 sentry expo like usual? Ugh...

lyrlian

Netherlands257 Posts

April 26 2011 22:39 GMT

#2010

I don't see how the ongoing tier 1/2/3/4/8 discussion is helping this thread at all. This isn't wow armor sets you're comparing but units of three entirely different races.

Ribbon

United States5278 Posts

April 26 2011 22:41 GMT

#2011

In a PvP, if you're going for quick tech or even an expo, it might be worthwhile to just not get warpgate at all right away. 4gate vs non-4gate, the 4gater will drop a bunch of chronos on the research, while the tech-er can spend them on gateways and put that 50/50 to better use.

Is that a sensible statement?

shizna

United Kingdom803 Posts

April 26 2011 22:43 GMT

#2012

On April 27 2011 07:21 Raid wrote:
I think they should lower the bunker build time because of the possibility of 2 gate pressure where it is actually faster to build a zealot than it is a bunker..

then you build a wall and repair the wall...

in broodwar it was pretty standard for a terran to have to deal with annoying-as-hell dragoon sniping the depots until you had a TANK... EVERY SINGLE GAME you basically had to constantly micro your marine/scv until your tank popped out... otherwise your wall goes down and his dragoon solo's your entire base.

lyrlian

Netherlands257 Posts

April 26 2011 22:47 GMT

#2013

50/50 is such a small investment. I dont think that;s what's going to make the difference, rather the extra units you can produce are, lets say you can get 5/6 stalkers out before the 4 gater hits you, you outnumber him in the first fight and then withyour slower warpgates (3gate) kicking in, you should be able to hold. However i'm not sure wether the unit build time decrease will make for enough of a difference to actually do this. The way I see it, the attack in that case will have 1 or 2 extra stalkers aswell because his first stalker and zealot build faster aswell. I think we might end up in the same situation as we are now. I'm just hoping some pro comes up with a 99% 4 gate proof tactic that involes anything apart from 4 gating yourself. Even with the current 3 stalker build, you still very vulnerable to 4 gate if you dont kill the probe/pylon in time.

JustAGame

Germany161 Posts

April 26 2011 22:47 GMT

#2014

On April 27 2011 07:37 KhAlleB wrote:
hmmm, why every 1 thinking hallu will be later on? if you think about that, WG = GW in term of production, so why not getting hallu first since you wont miss a production circle since they are egal? so it will result a faster hallu instead of a slower hallu

Without WG you might have a hard time holding off 2 base roach all ins (with 3 gate expand) which will hit right when the expansion is done. I am not sure how much you profit from that early hallucination (remember scouting with hallu costs 100 energy, giving away all your forcefields might be dangerous early on).

Jred

United States27 Posts

April 26 2011 22:51 GMT

#2015

I play T and i agree with the bunker and im not sure about the ghosts yet, overall looks good so far!

Sworn

Canada920 Posts

April 26 2011 22:51 GMT

#2016

1gate proxy vs Terran now 5 seconds less on zealots shit man it was already hard enough

zerat00l

United States100 Posts

April 26 2011 22:53 GMT

#2017

Time to work out my archon rush build.

Rorschach

United States623 Posts

April 26 2011 22:55 GMT

#2018

For anyone wanting the visual difference in pylon size here are too pics comparing PTR to current radius:

[image loading]

and

or links for the full size images:

http://i.imgur.com/ffgOd.jpg[
and
http://i.imgur.com/XMyzQ.jpg

Roxy

Canada753 Posts

April 26 2011 22:57 GMT

#2019

On April 27 2011 07:53 zerat00l wrote:
Time to work out my archon rush build.

What do you think? 1 base chargelot/archon all in?

sounds like a good distribution of the mineral/gas
would probably kill bio pretty well
blue flame hellions could hurt
tanks probably woudlnt do much
doubht they coudl get enough thors to stop it

ima get right on this ^^

lyrlian

Netherlands257 Posts

April 26 2011 23:00 GMT

#2020

THe difference diffinitely is noticeable. I think this is a great change to discourage 4 gating in pvp! but how does this affect walling off? Pictures please!

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