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I agree that SC2 is a little too dumbed down, especially compared to BW, but will any of your suggestions to "improve" SC2 make the game more interesting to watch for the tens of thousands of casuals that tune into the TSL, MLG, GSL, Dreamhack etc? I doubt it.
Sure, for the hardcore, adding more depth to SC2 will probably increase our enjoyment of watching it, but for the Western E-Sports scene to reach out to the mainstream, it will have little to no effect imo.
Casuals like big 200 v 200 food battles with lots of explosions and lasers, they don't care about all the intricacies that go into why someone did this or that. Just look at the Dreamhack hate thread towards MC.
The same applies to most casual sports fans. They mostly only care to see a huge dunk, a big open ice hit, a hail mary etc. If I were to explain to my gf the reason why MC decided to do what he did at Dreamhack, she could care less.
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This thread makes me want to ditch SC2 for good and learn to play BW properly the way I never did years ago and the way I have learned to play SC2 properly.
But then I remember just how brutal the UI is.
It really is a love/hate relationship with that UI. it being so hard to use makes it so much more impressive and rewarding when you do pull it off. But it also makes it HARD WORK playing Brood War.
Still...can't help but think I'd enjoy it a lot.
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On April 17 2011 12:46 Xenocide_Knight wrote:I can't believe the "give sc2 more time" argument STILL exists. + Show Spoiler +On April 17 2011 07:07 jenzebubble wrote:
You are comparing SC:BW with ten years of maturation vs. a game that has been out a year. You are comparing players that have mastered a game vs. players still figuring out how things work (Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell, 10k hours.) I understand that from a competitive stand point SC2 isn't where a lot of us would like it to be. That said, neither was SC1 at release. Were you around when 99% of SCBW competitive games were played on Lost Temple, because every other map stunk? Remember when River Styx was a ladder map? _River Styx_! Were you around for that? When the first big invitational tournament played had Thresh as a player? (Because they couldn't find 16 players with enough name cache to invite).
I think the OP lacks perspective. SC1 took a long time to become a game that could support high level competitive play. Were you around for that period of SC1's development you'd realize that the changes you'd like to see take time. On April 17 2011 09:58 v3chr0 wrote:
Good post, a lot of valid points but I as a whole, disagree. Comparing a game that players have had time to refine for years and years and years Versus a year of SC2 of course the differences and battles aren't going to be up to par.
When people find out how to maximize effectiveness of every unit, and they have to APM to do it, things will start shaping up and taking longer, you already see this with good players. If two players decide to just engage each others armies, of course the battle will end in 10 seconds, its up to the players to make the better decisions, not the game. Watch a good P or Z go against a Tank push in SC2, they don't engage it and die right away, the fight takes 5 minutes of the Zerg repositioning and trying flanks...
Give it more time... jeeze. Really, BW development was RTS development. That includes sc2. We didn't look look for things like micro pre-BW. But in SC2, everyone (and literally everyone) was scrambling to find out the next big strategy or play style. Just look at the sc2 strategy section. It's always "so and so's FE!" "TL poster's 1 base push!". The "give it more time" argument has been proven false so many times, please just do a search on previous threads. Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 11:44 ploy wrote:On April 17 2011 11:28 mahnini wrote:
so is anyone actually against having more units like the siege tank added to sc2 or is everyone just mad that i used bw as an example? I certainly agree with you for the most part.. even though the thread has collapsed into a sc2 vs bw word war, encouraged even by some TL staff (not you).. I don't know about the mods, or anyone else, but I definitely think it's time for a massive sc2 vs BW war. Like a GIANT, ban/perma-ban most of TL war. I'm still pissed that I have to scroll through literally 50 pages of random, amateur tournaments in the "Upcoming events" in order to find out when the Winner's League Final is. Or that the MSL finals Featured News was literally up for less than 24 hours before getting booted off the front page for more amateur sc2 crap. We have a Sports & Games section of TL, that's where sc2 should be. Is sc2 better than every non-BW RTS? Probably. Is it good enough to suddenly take up like 80% of teamliquid? Idk, but it hasn't been proven to be. So until SC2 can prove itself as a professional level game, I think it shouldn't be TL's main focus. Which it is. Which is bullshit imoimoimo. Players like Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, Flash, etc, are losing the spotlight/front page spot for people like Iron (MC), Clare (Foxer), Zergbong (Nestea), and foreigners. What? It says at the top, Teamliquid is a Starcraft progaming new site. Sc2 as of right now is a glorified, corporate, greed-fueled cesspit of 2nd rate progamers in terms of playing level. Is that the fault of the players not being good enough? No, it's the fault of the game fundamentally having too low of a skill ceiling. Jaedong would never drop a single Bo100 game vs Idra and yet in sc2, it could happen. Disgusting
Its these kinds of disgusting posts that turns so many new readers away from TeamLiquid and the world of Starcraft in general. Why are you so fucking angry? More people are playing SC2. The SC2 leagues are more popular everywhere except Korea. There are literally no notable foreigners left playing BW. If you don't like this, go start your own Brood War site and ban everyone that plays SC2?
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I will agree that Brood War seems more like an afterthought on this site, it should at least get a little more recognition for what it made TL.
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I have never played BW ... but from what I have read it sounds to me like BW the far superior game overall and competitively and I doubt this is even debatable ... but really SC2 is an amazing game and is great for the community ... if it was still BW focused I would not have known to come to this site or paid 25$ for NASL pass
Coming from a Socom fan ( which is a tactical shooter on playstation) ... the SC community is lucky SC2 wasn't casualized and ruined I understand that it is more casual than BW but it could be far far worse literally my favorite game of all time I will never ever be able to play anything similar again... many many fans of other series have seen their beloved franchises ruined so bad they will never get another game ...SC2 is literally the only game I bought in 2010 that wasnt total crap I think it can only get better ...
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On April 17 2011 08:50 Footler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 08:04 mahnini wrote:
i am interpreting most of the people who say "give it time" to mean the players will figure something out as opposed to "it will be added eventually". if you believe the latter i don't disagree with you. So are you saying, "give Sc2 time, Blizzard will add the it factor?"
Considering some of the things the OP mentioned, like Lurkers, or Goliaths (they had no value before the range upgrade) did not even exist in vanilla Starcraft, I think theres a chance they could add more units. I don't think smartcasting can be fixed. Its too useful for the vast majority of people that play this game, and taking it away would turn away far more players than it would attract.
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I don't know about the mods, or anyone else, but I definitely think it's time for a massive sc2 vs BW war. Like a GIANT, ban/perma-ban most of TL war. I'm still pissed that I have to scroll through literally 50 pages of random, amateur tournaments in the "Upcoming events" in order to find out when the Winner's League Final is. Or that the MSL finals Featured News was literally up for less than 24 hours before getting booted off the front page for more amateur sc2 crap.
We have a Sports & Games section of TL, that's where sc2 should be. Is sc2 better than every non-BW RTS? Probably. Is it good enough to suddenly take up like 80% of teamliquid? Idk, but it hasn't been proven to be. So until SC2 can prove itself as a professional level game, I think it shouldn't be TL's main focus. Which it is. Which is bullshit imoimoimo. Players like Bisu, Jaedong, Fantasy, Flash, etc, are losing the spotlight/front page spot for people like Iron (MC), Clare (Foxer), Zergbong (Nestea), and foreigners. What? It says at the top, Teamliquid is a Starcraft progaming new site. Sc2 as of right now is a glorified, corporate, greed-fueled cesspit of 2nd rate progamers in terms of playing level. Is that the fault of the players not being good enough? No, it's the fault of the game fundamentally having too low of a skill ceiling. Jaedong would never drop a single Bo100 game vs Idra and yet in sc2, it could happen. Disgusting
This is honestly one of the most disgusting things I've ever read. Not only do you presume that your opinion is 'untouchable,' you then promptly use it as a justification to tell TL.net as a community, a site, and an organization what to do? What is wrong with you? I'm willing to bet that not even Jaedong, Flash, or any BW player would stoop to this level of polarization, and yet you try and imply that you are some form of 'white knight' protecting their interests. I'm certain Jaedong's paycheck doesn't require your incredibly inflammatory opinions.
BW pro-players make money doing something they enjoy. SC2 pros do the same thing. BW and SC2 communities are united by their enjoyment of their chosen game as a form of entertainment and a hobby. Is there a problem that TL.net strives to provide a place where both communities can coexist peacefully?
I'm just glad you're not the face of our community. Thankfully, the chance that this post will somehow be spotlighted for anything other than being a bad example is very small.
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Well... Reading the last three pages tells me the mod warning was in vain. Sorta.
But on the topic of BW's "amazing cause of action everywhere" appeal, I just watched a game played by Spanishiwa and casted by Psy.
Psy could barely keep up with everything that was going on: the drops, the nydus harass, the counterattacks.
And that's not to insult Psy as a caster, maybe someone with more experience WOULD be able to catch everything going on. But, if you're looking for "action everywhere", I think it's coming in SC2, it just needs two people for each race. One to revolutionize mechanics and show just how tightly the race can be played, and one to revolutionize the strategy and show how strangely it can be played.
Then, we have even more awesome games :D
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As someone who never played or watched BW seriously, whenver I am up late at night and I turn on some proleauge/msl i am amazed at how much more seems to be going on than a typical sc2 game. It makes me wish sc2 was like that for the spectator.
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Main problem of SC2 is that blizz tried to implement a more new stuff in this game than they had to.
Not am i saying that blizz just had to transfer all the SC:BW units on the new engine(damn good one, by the way).
New units, spells, upgrades, of course, are very good to mix all the old good styles.
But until there is in this game such a crap as infestors, collosi, benelings, etc...SC2 will be also just very beautiful, very modern... crap.
OP has pointed it out damn good. I tried to say the same things in the Bnet forums few times, but, of course, noone cares.
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Xenocide's post was pretty bad but I agree with a 1 or 2 things from it. I'm also getting quite tired of the "Give it time! BW took 10 years to develop!" argument. For one thing, the understanding of micro and hotkeying buildings/units was NOT common in the early days of BW. I remember when my friend told me about micro "Yo dude, you can make your units BETTER by controlling them differently ya know?" This shattered my reality at the time but its such common sense now. The point is: the entire community's collective RTS IQ is triple that of what it was back then. We've seen so much develop and extracted the core concepts and ideas from BW then applied it to sc2. Even if SC2's complexity was as deep as BW, it would evolve at a much much faster rate. Compound that fact with the easier interface as well.
SC2's interface allows for all players at nearly any skill levels to discover new strategies and refine them so essentially the entire community can effectively test new shit out at a very proficient level. A noob could have theorycrafted the fantasy build in BW but would never had been able to execute it because of the multi tasking and vulture micro required so he would inevitably throw out the build as just being bad.
We just can't assume sc2's complexity will be as deep as BW just because it has the name "starcraft" in the title. Lalush already wrote a beautiful post about supply caps and how saturating 3 bases is essentially maximum for how many harvesters you would even want. So essentially, you only have to refine a build up to your 3rd base timing and thats essentially the end of the road. Everything beyond that is at a point when the game breaks down to match of spontaneity and freestyling.
Some people might argue the idea of whether or not idra could take a game off of jaedong in a bo100. This may or may not be true but if the stakes were high enough, I would not bet on idra taking any more than 4 or 5 games off jaedong. To better illustrate the point though, I'll just point out the fact that games between idra and 100 apm drewbie are ALWAYS competitive. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much seals the argument for how much macro mechanics matter in sc2. I've never even seen idra macro at his full potential in sc2. In case people didn't know, idra averages 200-220 eapm in BW (350ish apm). for perspective: flash averages 240 eapm, the average top foreigners tend to average 160ish tops. in sc2 though, idra rarely even needs to go 2/3rds his full capabilities. Seriously, have you even seen idra go anywhere near 350 apm in sc2? idra was very efficient with his actions in BW so it wasnt spam.
Anyways, back on topic. I fully agree with the OP. Great post. Ive had a lot of similar thoughts as well. Somebody made this picture during the beta to illustrate the differences between bw and sc2
+ Show Spoiler +
I think it adequately illustrated how important defensive positional play was in BW while sc2 has very few strong defensive units that can be used to control space and territories. Scourge, defilers, lurkers could completely defend an isolated position or base on the map as could tanks/mines or cannon/ht/reaver in pvz
I think three good posts illustrate some worries I have with the direction of sc2 going forward into the future: The power overwhelming one, this one, and lalush's post. I still love BW and SC2. I play both in my free time. Even though I think BW is the superior game, I still feel SC2 is by far the 2nd best RTS ever created.
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On April 17 2011 14:05 billyX333 wrote:
Some people might argue the idea of whether or not idra could take a game off of jaedong in a bo100. This may or may not be true but if the stakes were high enough, I would not bet on idra taking any more than 4 or 5 games off jaedong. To better illustrate the point though, I'll just point out the fact that games between idra and 100 apm drewbie are ALWAYS competitive. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much seals the argument for how much macro mechanics matter in sc2. I've never even seen idra macro at his full potential in sc2. In case people didn't know, idra averages 200-220 eapm in BW (350ish apm). for perspective: flash averages 240 eapm, the average top foreigners tend to average 160ish tops. in sc2 though, idra rarely even needs to go 2/3rds his full capabilities. Seriously, have you even seen idra go anywhere near 350 apm in sc2? idra was very efficient with his actions in BW so it wasnt spam.
You make arguments like this, but do you watch any replays? Do you really think there's nothing more for idra to do? You say he has this 1/3 extra APM ability that he just "isn't using." But if you watch replays, he's still not having perfect timing on injects, on creep tumors, and so on. He's still not scouting with every single idle ling early and early mid-game. He's still not playing close to optimally, even with respect to macro and micro mechanics, ignoring elements of strategy.
There's a lot of room for improvement, and your argument that he's slower doesn't prove anything except for the fact that he's far more accustomed to playing BW than SC2. Would you expect a guitar virtuoso who has been practicing their entire life to be just as adept at playing piano after only a year? Would you say "oh shit buckethead, how come you only haz 300 apm at piano while having 600 apm at guitar?" No, you wouldn't, because he's obviously more accustomed to playing guitar, and doesn't have the muscle memory for piano yet.
EDIT: I realized that you, in particular, said "...idra rarely even needs..." Look, when IdrA is playing flawlessly and winning every game he plays, maybe you can say absurd shit like this. Until then, lol? I mean come on.
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On April 17 2011 14:16 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 14:05 billyX333 wrote:
Some people might argue the idea of whether or not idra could take a game off of jaedong in a bo100. This may or may not be true but if the stakes were high enough, I would not bet on idra taking any more than 4 or 5 games off jaedong. To better illustrate the point though, I'll just point out the fact that games between idra and 100 apm drewbie are ALWAYS competitive. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much seals the argument for how much macro mechanics matter in sc2. I've never even seen idra macro at his full potential in sc2. In case people didn't know, idra averages 200-220 eapm in BW (350ish apm). for perspective: flash averages 240 eapm, the average top foreigners tend to average 160ish tops. in sc2 though, idra rarely even needs to go 2/3rds his full capabilities. Seriously, have you even seen idra go anywhere near 350 apm in sc2? idra was very efficient with his actions in BW so it wasnt spam.
You make arguments like this, but do you watch any replays? Do you really think there's nothing more for idra to do? You say he has this 1/3 extra APM ability that he just "isn't using." But if you watch replays, he's still not having perfect timing on injects, on creep tumors, and so on. He's still not scouting with every single idle ling early and early mid-game. He's still not playing close to optimally, even with respect to macro and micro mechanics, ignoring elements of strategy. There's a lot of room for improvement, and your argument that he's slower doesn't prove anything except for the fact that he's far more accustomed to playing BW than SC2. Would you expect a guitar virtuoso who has been practicing their entire life to be just as adept at playing piano after only a year? Would you say "oh shit buckethead, how come you only haz 300 apm at piano while having 600 apm at guitar?" No, you wouldn't, because he's obviously more accustomed to playing guitar, and doesn't have the muscle memory for piano yet. EDIT: I realized that you, in particular, said "...idra rarely even needs..." Look, when IdrA is playing flawlessly and winning every game he plays, maybe you can say absurd shit like this. Until then, lol? I mean come on.
The creep tumors and larva injection mechanic is more about tempo than actual mechanics. Idra isn't constantly macroing because he doesn't need to. I was referring to strictly macro mechanics, not scouting/harassing/microing/multitasking etc etc.
and also:
EDIT: I realized that you, in particular, said "...idra rarely even needs..." Look, when IdrA is playing flawlessly and winning every game he plays, maybe you can say absurd shit like this. Until then, lol? I mean come on.
This makes no sense. Perfect macro doesn't exist because of the order is never perfect because its completely dependent on what the opponent is doing and what you can get away with. But being able to adequately keep up with every thing which needs to be done is a completely different issue which is the one i'm specifically discussing. I doubt any BW pro gamer would have trouble getting everything done in SC2, its just the order in which its done that can make or break the game and that will never be perfected. Whitera made comments about this as well.
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On April 17 2011 14:05 billyX333 wrote:
I think it adequately illustrated how important defensive positional play was in BW while sc2 has very few strong defensive units that can be used to control space and territories. Scourge, defilers, lurkers could completely defend an isolated position or base on the map as could tanks/mines or cannon/ht/reaver in pvz
I think three good posts illustrate some worries I have with the direction of sc2 going forward into the future: The power overwhelming one, this one, and lalush's post. I still love BW and SC2. I play both in my free time. Even though I think BW is the superior game, I still feel SC2 is by far the 2nd best RTS ever created.
Just wanted to add: Given the recent development in infestor play that has eluded top players for an entire year, I think your timing on talking about stuff like this is pretty poor.
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On April 17 2011 14:20 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 14:16 PJA wrote:On April 17 2011 14:05 billyX333 wrote:
Some people might argue the idea of whether or not idra could take a game off of jaedong in a bo100. This may or may not be true but if the stakes were high enough, I would not bet on idra taking any more than 4 or 5 games off jaedong. To better illustrate the point though, I'll just point out the fact that games between idra and 100 apm drewbie are ALWAYS competitive. As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much seals the argument for how much macro mechanics matter in sc2. I've never even seen idra macro at his full potential in sc2. In case people didn't know, idra averages 200-220 eapm in BW (350ish apm). for perspective: flash averages 240 eapm, the average top foreigners tend to average 160ish tops. in sc2 though, idra rarely even needs to go 2/3rds his full capabilities. Seriously, have you even seen idra go anywhere near 350 apm in sc2? idra was very efficient with his actions in BW so it wasnt spam.
You make arguments like this, but do you watch any replays? Do you really think there's nothing more for idra to do? You say he has this 1/3 extra APM ability that he just "isn't using." But if you watch replays, he's still not having perfect timing on injects, on creep tumors, and so on. He's still not scouting with every single idle ling early and early mid-game. He's still not playing close to optimally, even with respect to macro and micro mechanics, ignoring elements of strategy. There's a lot of room for improvement, and your argument that he's slower doesn't prove anything except for the fact that he's far more accustomed to playing BW than SC2. Would you expect a guitar virtuoso who has been practicing their entire life to be just as adept at playing piano after only a year? Would you say "oh shit buckethead, how come you only haz 300 apm at piano while having 600 apm at guitar?" No, you wouldn't, because he's obviously more accustomed to playing guitar, and doesn't have the muscle memory for piano yet. The creep tumors and larva injection mechanic is more about tempo than actual mechanics. Idra isn't constantly macroing because he doesn't need to.
What kind of bullshit dodge is this? Are you serious?
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On April 17 2011 14:22 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 14:05 billyX333 wrote:
I think it adequately illustrated how important defensive positional play was in BW while sc2 has very few strong defensive units that can be used to control space and territories. Scourge, defilers, lurkers could completely defend an isolated position or base on the map as could tanks/mines or cannon/ht/reaver in pvz
I think three good posts illustrate some worries I have with the direction of sc2 going forward into the future: The power overwhelming one, this one, and lalush's post. I still love BW and SC2. I play both in my free time. Even though I think BW is the superior game, I still feel SC2 is by far the 2nd best RTS ever created.
Just wanted to add: Given the recent development in infestor play that has eluded top players for an entire year, I think your timing on talking about stuff like this is pretty poor.
Not exactly sure what this means. Of course the game isnt figured out yet?
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This boggles my mind that this OP is by a Banling and it is still going on.
SC2 is missing the thing that made BW great TIME
We have it better then any of you can even pretend to know unless you we and are a top level player in multiple RTS games, and I don't mean C+ and Masters I mean you legitimately competed with the likes of Day Artosis Mondragon Nony then AND now.
Give it time, and if you really don't know how I could be knowledgeable enough to even post this listen/watch the latest SotG to get an idea.
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On April 17 2011 14:27 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2011 14:22 PJA wrote:On April 17 2011 14:05 billyX333 wrote:
I think it adequately illustrated how important defensive positional play was in BW while sc2 has very few strong defensive units that can be used to control space and territories. Scourge, defilers, lurkers could completely defend an isolated position or base on the map as could tanks/mines or cannon/ht/reaver in pvz
I think three good posts illustrate some worries I have with the direction of sc2 going forward into the future: The power overwhelming one, this one, and lalush's post. I still love BW and SC2. I play both in my free time. Even though I think BW is the superior game, I still feel SC2 is by far the 2nd best RTS ever created.
Just wanted to add: Given the recent development in infestor play that has eluded top players for an entire year, I think your timing on talking about stuff like this is pretty poor. Not exactly sure what this means. Of course the game isnt figured out yet?
Well you are trying to say that SC2 is lacking in some positional element that BW possesses, but current developments point to the fact that perhaps that is at least partially due to the game not being figured out yet, not an inherent design flaw.
And yet you want to claim that it is due to an inherent design flaw, and downplay the fact that BW is more developed.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/4018/maps1c.jpg)
