EPTTeam liquid needs to grow more and turn to game design !
[D] What SC2 is missing? - Page 38
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
Team liquid needs to grow more and turn to game design ! | ||
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JDance
Sweden14 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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IPS.Mardow.
Germany713 Posts
On April 17 2011 14:58 branflakes14 wrote: Small maps are another thing the game is missing. I'm sick and tired of these huge "macro" maps with so much open space that positional play means nothing. Not to mention builds developed on large maps don't work on small maps, so at this rate we'll get stuck in an infinite cycle of nothing but large maps because people are unable to play small maps. At this stage in the metagame it'd be far, far better to have a ton of small maps, since safe builds developed on small maps will ALWAYS work on large maps, as opposed to large map builds, which won't work on small maps because of timings in distance. BRING BACK STEPPES. Are you crazy? Small maps like Steppes were the most imbalanced and horrible maps we've ever played on. We played way too long on these shit maps. Was about time to get some bigger macro maps. They create much more intense and macro oriented games. Small maps are decided by the bo's and the games often end in the early game. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
And with the bigger maps and the changes they've made they have made strides forward. Some of the OPs points are valid but some I have to say are completely wrong. A fundamental design flaw. To some degree this is true, but overstated by the OP. In blink stalker battles there is definitely a lot going on. Just watch Huk's stream for examples of that. But by removing Reavers and spider mines they did take away some of the exciting unit match-ups when really they should have built upon them much better. And the marauder.... what were they thinking?? It's just completely boring and adds nothing to the game. Do you know what game flow is? To put it bluntly. YES. Game flow is still very important. It's something that will only increase as players get more accustomed to the strategies in the game. The importance of map control. Boxer the master of map control shows why it is so important in his games versus Sen. Hasn't changed since BW. In fact with the game being so high paced and it being SO crucial to stop the Zerg economy early, map control is arguably even more of a factor on players minds in SC2. You've got to stop creep spread, kill overlords, block expansions, create tank chokes etc... Positioning and setup time. Watch July Zerg masterfully set up a flank to see the importance of positing and setup in SC2. What positioning did Protoss require in BW? Again there's arguably more to think about in SC2 with forcefields, templar, collosus, blink moves all on the Protoss players mind. Making sure his collosus don't get caught by long ranged air units hiding on the high ground. Player-unit interaction. Units still require great control to perform well. Stalkers are a brilliant addition, Zealot charge is better, Roach burrow is seeing some interesting use. Next you'll be telling me a sunken colony was more exciting than a spine crawler. Mutas are now more than a "make 12" unit. You can use them in almost different modes, spread mode, clump mode, harass mode, deathball mode etc.... "Colossus vs reaver? Baneling vs lurker? Viking vs wraith? Thor vs goliath? Phoenix vs corsair? Immortal vs dragoon? Muta vs muta? Hydra vs hydra? There's just no contest. " That's just completely silly, you've lost the plot at this point and it just seems like when an Old man goes on a rant about why the world today is so awful and not what it used to be. Mechanics were more than a skill gap. Have we actually seen a super strong SC2 player yet? I don't think we have. The best we have is MC at the moment. I don't think I look at any Zerg player, even JulyZerg, and see someone who gets the most out of his race. There's so much more potential for harass, flanking and general multi-tasking that I don't think this is an issue. Ultimately though they made fundamental mistakes with unit choices and have never corrected that. You don't drop the Reaver and the Spider Mine from your game, introduce Marauders and Immortals and expect it to be more exciting. These are problems that really can be rectified if they've got the balls to do it. Here's hoping for HOTS! | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12024 Posts
SC2 is a very big game for esports and it's taking off massively among everyone. If you don't like it, you don't need to become a part of it. I'm just saying that without SC2, we wouldn't even have as many non korean progamers as the fact of the matter is, without SC2 RTS gaming would never have gotten to the stage it is in the rest of the world as it is now. SC2 is actually a viable path for pro-gamers from the rest of the world now as it's a massive spectator sport and tournaments have huge money on the line. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On April 17 2011 19:30 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Are you crazy? Small maps like Steppes were the most imbalanced and horrible maps we've ever played on. We played way too long on these shit maps. Was about time to get some bigger macro maps. They create much more intense and macro oriented games. Small maps are decided by the bo's and the games often end in the early game. Find a safer BO then. Solve your own problems, don't complain that other factors are the reason you lose. | ||
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IPS.Mardow.
Germany713 Posts
On April 17 2011 19:49 branflakes14 wrote: Find a safer BO then. Solve your own problems, don't complain that other factors are the reason you lose. ROFL!!!!!! I wont argue with you about this issue because you clearly dont know what youre talking. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On April 17 2011 19:51 IPS.Mardow. wrote: ROFL!!!!!! I wont argue with you about this issue because you clearly dont know what youre talking. The feeling is mutual, I assure you. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 17 2011 19:48 Qikz wrote: This may sound like a very stupid suggestion, but if the people complaining so much about SC2 hate it so much, why not go back to playing it? You don't need to play SC2 and if you're just going to complain it really does make this place insufferable. The arguments about this subject just go on loops and loops with some members stating the same facts over and over again when it's just their opinion. SC2 is a very big game for esports and it's taking off massively among everyone. If you don't like it, you don't need to become a part of it. I'm just saying that without SC2, we wouldn't even have as many non korean progamers as the fact of the matter is, without SC2 RTS gaming would never have gotten to the stage it is in the rest of the world as it is now. SC2 is actually a viable path for pro-gamers from the rest of the world now as it's a massive spectator sport and tournaments have huge money on the line. We,or atleast I do not hate it, but it is missing something in our opinion. I watch both BW and SC2, the former religiously and the latter whenever it happens to be on and I am on my computer(Only the larger tournaments though, TSL, GSL and NASL.)This is not about sc2 hate but rather what SC2 is missing at this mooment. | ||
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eNbee
Belgium487 Posts
You can't put psi-storm on autocast for instance, the only thing you can afaik is repair. I might've misunderstood though, so please clarify! (and if you have over the course of 38 pages, I'm sorry, I just read the OP) | ||
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LunarC
United States1186 Posts
On April 17 2011 19:48 Qikz wrote: This may sound like a very stupid suggestion, but if the people complaining so much about SC2 hate it so much, why not go back to playing it? You don't need to play SC2 and if you're just going to complain it really does make this place insufferable. The arguments about this subject just go on loops and loops with some members stating the same facts over and over again when it's just their opinion. SC2 is a very big game for esports and it's taking off massively among everyone. If you don't like it, you don't need to become a part of it. I'm just saying that without SC2, we wouldn't even have as many non korean progamers as the fact of the matter is, without SC2 RTS gaming would never have gotten to the stage it is in the rest of the world as it is now. SC2 is actually a viable path for pro-gamers from the rest of the world now as it's a massive spectator sport and tournaments have huge money on the line. Seems like you are saying that SC2 is not missing anything crucial as if the existence of big-money SC2 tournaments somehow rectifies any possible shortcomings the game may have. So SC2 put RTS gaming back on the map. Great. So where does it go from there? That is the question being asked here. No one is trying to put SC2 down as a failure. To address the OP, all of the points in the OP are points I agree with wholeheartedly. But most of these points will counteract one crucial thing: Accessibility. BW Terran (ONE race) took me a good 9 months to get used to mechanically and even now I am seeing my mechanics improve as I learn the race's mechanics. I usually hover around 170-200 APM average as Terran with an EAPM of around 130. The thing is that even the most delicate actions made by a progamer in BW directly contribute to the game, while in SC2 the fine, delicate aspects of unit control are completely and utterly obliterated in the name of accessibility. In BW you can win against a superior army if you control your army correctly. In SC2, this is simply not as viable. Let's examine why. First, army control is much easier from a UI standpoint. So, the entry level of controlling an army is much lower. Second, units are smarter and are designed in ways that they don't benefit from being controlled well and don't suffer from not being controlled well. Again, everything that was addressed in the OP are things that will directly lower accessibility. I'm not confident that Blizzard is willing to design their game in a way that will remove that for the sake of making it more competitive (read "difficult"). This is the age of facebook and smartphone apps. Accessibility is everything. Smaller maps means that travel time is much shorter, meaning that the best strategies are the ones that exploit the fact that the opponent will have less time to react, aka cheese, all-ins. Aggressive builds that do not aim to secure an advantage but aim to end the game only serve to make the game more random and more strategically shallow. Positional play will become much simpler due to the fact that there is less terrain to work with. Also, the safe builds on small maps "may" always work on large maps, but this implies that the riskier, greedier builds will only work on large maps. So you basically want to limit the range of viable builds by saying you want only small maps. Yes. Limit viable strategies. Great for eSports. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 17 2011 20:03 eNbee wrote: I'm a bit confused, what do you mean by smartcast and autocast? You can't put psi-storm on autocast for instance, the only thing you can afaik is repair. I might've misunderstood though, so please clarify! (and if you have over the course of 38 pages, I'm sorry, I just read the OP) In Starcraft BW if you had multiple High templars selected, pressed T for Psi storm and targetted an area all those high templars would storm that area, overlapping storms massivly, you had to control each high templar specifically to get the most effective storms out possible. In Starcraft 2 there is smartcasing, in a group of multiple high templars you can press T and target an area, only 1 of the high templars will cast a psi storm, hence to produce ''carpet storms'' in SC2 you can select a group of high templars and press T at will. As for autocast, I am not certain what you mean by that, perhaps Marauder slow?. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On April 17 2011 19:32 Klive5ive wrote: Positioning and setup time. Watch July Zerg masterfully set up a flank to see the importance of positing and setup in SC2. What positioning did Protoss require in BW? Again there's arguably more to think about in SC2 with forcefields, templar, collosus, blink moves all on the Protoss players mind. Making sure his collosus don't get caught by long ranged air units hiding on the high ground. wut? BW Protoss was all about having your army in a good position, just not a static position like Lurkers/Tanks.. like in PvT, you can't just a-move into the Terran mechball. You have to set up an arc or a line first before you attack, and if there are too many mines then you have to send your Dragoons first to clear them so your Zealots don't get massacred. You have to make sure your Arbiters are spread out, to minimize EMP damage. You have to wisely use your stasis so that it doesn't work against you. and in Carrier situations you have to make sure you're either engaging over a cliffed area or with an army so that goliaths don't totally rape your Carriers. In PvZ when engaging Lurker fields you can't just bumrush in, but you have to try to get as much work done w/ just Dragoons taking potshots and Storms before you decide to attack with the full force (Grape vs Hero such an excellent example). Protoss needs to pick and choose his battles in various terrains, depending on the unit composition. When Reavers are added to his army, Protoss must carefully micro his Shuttle so it doesn't get sniped by Scourge or Hydras. And in PvP, this is where positioning matters the most.. where the player with a better arc will usually win, but must also spread out his units so that they don't all die to splash. Good protoss players will storm Zealot clumps they see, and also take care to spread about their Zealots so that they don't get caught in one storm. Watch Bisu, who is one of the best PvP players in choosing a favorable position to engage and win.. SC2 P having more positioning importance than BW P is bullshit. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On April 17 2011 20:09 LunarC wrote: Smaller maps means that travel time is much shorter, meaning that the best strategies are the ones that exploit the fact that the opponent will have less time to react, aka cheese, all-ins. To be honest you probably get more time to react to a Cannon rush on Steppes of War than you do on Metalopolis since it can take your scout years to reach him if he's in the last place you scout. | ||
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IPS.Mardow.
Germany713 Posts
On April 17 2011 20:37 branflakes14 wrote: To be honest you probably get more time to react to a Cannon rush on Steppes of War than you do on Metalopolis since it can take your scout years to reach him if he's in the last place you scout. Wow, your way to argue is the most hilarious I've ever seen. You want to destroy SC2 or rather esports in general by implementing small shit maps again. Thank god you're not responsible for such things. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On April 17 2011 20:43 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Wow, your way to argue is the most hilarious I've ever seen. You want to destroy SC2 or rather esports in general by implementing small shit maps again. Thank god you're not responsible for such things. Oh, so you're one of those "ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS" people. Have fun with your pretence while it lasts I guess. | ||
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IPS.Mardow.
Germany713 Posts
On April 17 2011 20:47 branflakes14 wrote: Oh, so you're one of those "ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS" people. Have fun with your pretence while it lasts I guess. Because this thread is exactly about this topic?^^ Did you even read the OP's first post, lol. If you don't want to discuss about SC2 getting better and bigger as an esports game I suggest you go find another thread or forum to post on. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On April 17 2011 20:52 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Because this thread is exactly about this topic?^^ Did you even read the OP's first post, lol. If you don't want to discuss about SC2 getting better and bigger as an esports game I suggest you go find another thread or forum to post on. I wholeheartedly want SC2's metagame to develop and games to come down to the wire more, but I don't personally think that can ever happen on maps as big as Taldarim Altar. There's just feels like far too many variables for a player to ever fully be able to control the game on a map that size. | ||
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FarbrorAbavna
Sweden4856 Posts
On April 17 2011 19:32 Klive5ive wrote: SC2 is still a great game, let's not forget that. And with the bigger maps and the changes they've made they have made strides forward. Some of the OPs points are valid but some I have to say are completely wrong. A fundamental design flaw. To some degree this is true, but overstated by the OP. In blink stalker battles there is definitely a lot going on. Just watch Huk's stream for examples of that. But by removing Reavers and spider mines they did take away some of the exciting unit match-ups when really they should have built upon them much better. And the marauder.... what were they thinking?? It's just completely boring and adds nothing to the game. Do you know what game flow is? To put it bluntly. YES. Game flow is still very important. It's something that will only increase as players get more accustomed to the strategies in the game. The importance of map control. Boxer the master of map control shows why it is so important in his games versus Sen. Hasn't changed since BW. In fact with the game being so high paced and it being SO crucial to stop the Zerg economy early, map control is arguably even more of a factor on players minds in SC2. You've got to stop creep spread, kill overlords, block expansions, create tank chokes etc... Positioning and setup time. Watch July Zerg masterfully set up a flank to see the importance of positing and setup in SC2. What positioning did Protoss require in BW? Again there's arguably more to think about in SC2 with forcefields, templar, collosus, blink moves all on the Protoss players mind. Making sure his collosus don't get caught by long ranged air units hiding on the high ground. Player-unit interaction. Units still require great control to perform well. Stalkers are a brilliant addition, Zealot charge is better, Roach burrow is seeing some interesting use. Next you'll be telling me a sunken colony was more exciting than a spine crawler. Mutas are now more than a "make 12" unit. You can use them in almost different modes, spread mode, clump mode, harass mode, deathball mode etc.... "Colossus vs reaver? Baneling vs lurker? Viking vs wraith? Thor vs goliath? Phoenix vs corsair? Immortal vs dragoon? Muta vs muta? Hydra vs hydra? There's just no contest. " That's just completely silly, you've lost the plot at this point and it just seems like when an Old man goes on a rant about why the world today is so awful and not what it used to be. Mechanics were more than a skill gap. Have we actually seen a super strong SC2 player yet? I don't think we have. The best we have is MC at the moment. I don't think I look at any Zerg player, even JulyZerg, and see someone who gets the most out of his race. There's so much more potential for harass, flanking and general multi-tasking that I don't think this is an issue. Ultimately though they made fundamental mistakes with unit choices and have never corrected that. You don't drop the Reaver and the Spider Mine from your game, introduce Marauders and Immortals and expect it to be more exciting. These are problems that really can be rectified if they've got the balls to do it. Here's hoping for HOTS! this pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post by op and views on where sc2 is at right now. | ||
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