Great post and I'm glad I read through the analysis.
You are correct in every aspect
I've started playing BW for no reason and theres something about it that gets my blood pumping and something about it that makes a win feel like a WIN.
In terms of actual gameplay, map control is definitely more important in BW which makes it more "strategically" or at least more fun ^^
edit:
omg I read through half this thread which took forever T_____T very insightful though As for jibba constantly providing counter examples, you must admit that the things that mah is saying happen almost every game whereas things that you are stating rarely happen...(besides TvZ which has been stated)
I don't think , the game itself is responsible for all of this "flaws". Of course there are a lot of "momentum-changer" like a 4-Gate, Lava-Inject, Reactors etc. that can simply decide a battle, because you just have more units at a specific time.
But i think, the big problem are the players themself. Take a look at all the units in the game and start to think...
For example [as P]: I have a 125/50 Stalker. It gets owned by a 100/25 Marauder or 2 75/50 Roaches easily. So why mind building them? Well. A Stalker is not a real "fighting" unit. It's fast, blink makes it faster.
You can outplay our opponent hard by using warp prism,stalker,blink,dark templar,pylons,phoenix,colossi [No joke, why do you think, he can walk on cliffs?] etc.
A 100/0 Zealot has one of the sickest DPSs in the game. But why don't you really "feel" it? Because most of us literally 1-A. Ever thought of flanking with zealots, so they really can do their damage?
The problem is, that everybody just tries to outmuscle his opponent. Build a army, attack, win. That's the mindset.
As P, your supposed to harass your opponent to death. As T, your supposed to outmuscle your opponent with proper unit-mixes. As Z, your supposed to keep your opponent low while getting stronger yourself.
But since everybody tries to just attack and win, you really can't see a battle with a lot of things at the same time.
Wouldn't be suprised to see a Blink-Stalker/DT composition in PvZ and a shift in PvT (T getting dropped instead of P) That's why TvZ feels so balanced right now. Both races try to play the role, they are supposed to play.
TvP feels strange, because you are not supposed to outmuscle you opponent as P, so you rely too much on your colossus. 1 Colossus more or less already makes a huge difference.It just feels strange.
ZvP feels very difficult as Z, because you just don't keep your opponents army low. If a harass vs harass race plays, the player that harasses more, will win. Simple as that. Players qqed about the "Deathball" a very long time. Why? Because they didn't harass and became too passive.
The game itself has everything it needs. The metagame lacks a lot, because we still don't really UNDERSTAND! the game. Might really take 1-2 years or a brilliant tournament win (like Bisu's inovative PvZ for a 3-0 final win) to see the game in a different way.
But sadly, it's very rare to see a very good and creative player at the same time. Imagine 1 strong IdrA combined with a creativity like TLO or Catz.
As you mentioned there is not enough micro mechanics, expecially for Zerg. Protoss uses FFs and zerg just can't micro against them. Terran has marines with a lot of potencial and zerg has banelings which just roll after marines. All what matter is a terran micro, because no matter how good you control your baneling they are not going to make a miracle if terrans splits marines.
As you mentioned there is not enough micro mechanics, expecially for Zerg. Protoss uses FFs and zerg just can't micro against them. Terran has marines with a lot of potencial and zerg has banelings which just roll after marines. All what matter is a terran micro, because no matter how good you control your baneling they are not going to make a miracle if terrans splits marines.
As you mentioned there is not enough micro mechanics, expecially for Zerg. Protoss uses FFs and zerg just can't micro against them. Terran has marines with a lot of potencial and zerg has banelings which just roll after marines. All what matter is a terran micro, because no matter how good you control your baneling they are not going to make a miracle if terrans splits marines.
On April 17 2011 20:09 LunarC wrote: Smaller maps means that travel time is much shorter, meaning that the best strategies are the ones that exploit the fact that the opponent will have less time to react, aka cheese, all-ins.
To be honest you probably get more time to react to a Cannon rush on Steppes of War than you do on Metalopolis since it can take your scout years to reach him if he's in the last place you scout.
Wow, your way to argue is the most hilarious I've ever seen. You want to destroy SC2 or rather esports in general by implementing small shit maps again. Thank god you're not responsible for such things.
Oh, so you're one of those "ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS" people. Have fun with your pretence while it lasts I guess.
Because this thread is exactly about this topic?^^ Did you even read the OP's first post, lol. If you don't want to discuss about SC2 getting better and bigger as an esports game I suggest you go find another thread or forum to post on.
I wholeheartedly want SC2's metagame to develop and games to come down to the wire more, but I don't personally think that can ever happen on maps as big as Taldarim Altar. There's just feels like far too many variables for a player to ever fully be able to control the game on a map that size.
It's perfectly possible to completely control a map as big as tal'darim altar. Just not for the lower tier players (mid-diamond and lower) because of the APM requirement. Maps that make full map control more difficult to maintain also allow for easier comebacks.
On April 17 2011 21:05 Iatrik wrote: I don't think , the game itself is responsible for all of this "flaws". Of course there are a lot of "momentum-changer" like a 4-Gate, Lava-Inject, Reactors etc. that can simply decide a battle, because you just have more units at a specific time.
But i think, the big problem are the players themself. Take a look at all the units in the game and start to think...
For example [as P]: I have a 125/50 Stalker. It gets owned by a 100/25 Marauder or 2 75/50 Roaches easily. So why mind building them? Well. A Stalker is not a real "fighting" unit. It's fast, blink makes it faster.
You can outplay our opponent hard by using warp prism,stalker,blink,dark templar,pylons,phoenix,colossi [No joke, why do you think, he can walk on cliffs?] etc.
A 100/0 Zealot has one of the sickest DPSs in the game. But why don't you really "feel" it? Because most of us literally 1-A. Ever thought of flanking with zealots, so they really can do their damage?
The problem is, that everybody just tries to outmuscle his opponent. Build a army, attack, win. That's the mindset.
As P, your supposed to harass your opponent to death. As T, your supposed to outmuscle your opponent with proper unit-mixes. As Z, your supposed to keep your opponent low while getting stronger yourself.
But since everybody tries to just attack and win, you really can't see a battle with a lot of things at the same time.
Wouldn't be suprised to see a Blink-Stalker/DT composition in PvZ and a shift in PvT (T getting dropped instead of P) That's why TvZ feels so balanced right now. Both races try to play the role, they are supposed to play.
TvP feels strange, because you are not supposed to outmuscle you opponent as P, so you rely too much on your colossus. 1 Colossus more or less already makes a huge difference.It just feels strange.
ZvP feels very difficult as Z, because you just don't keep your opponents army low. If a harass vs harass race plays, the player that harasses more, will win. Simple as that. Players qqed about the "Deathball" a very long time. Why? Because they didn't harass and became too passive.
The game itself has everything it needs. The metagame lacks a lot, because we still don't really UNDERSTAND! the game. Might really take 1-2 years or a brilliant tournament win (like Bisu's inovative PvZ for a 3-0 final win) to see the game in a different way.
But sadly, it's very rare to see a very good and creative player at the same time. Imagine 1 strong IdrA combined with a creativity like TLO or Catz.
that post doesnt make sense at all. If protos can easily be passive and saturate his 3 bases and come out with big army which is even better than terrans army, then how can possibly protos be based on harass?
Doesnt make sense. Protos has the most strongest momentum of all maxed armies, so protos is actually the race, which is based on outmuscleing the opponent.
Terran is the race, which need to harass other races to win.
As you mentioned there is not enough micro mechanics, expecially for Zerg. Protoss uses FFs and zerg just can't micro against them. Terran has marines with a lot of potencial and zerg has banelings which just roll after marines. All what matter is a terran micro, because no matter how good you control your baneling they are not going to make a miracle if terrans splits marines.
Burrow micro ONLY with roaches, speedling and hydras are left with nothing, right? And burrow move isn't really something micro intensive, you just grabbed all roaches behind the FF and move them, it does not solve the core problem.
Baneling mines has nothing to do with marine vs. baneling micro. Yeah it's cool trick but it's separate thing. Baneling flanks? Usually 99% of the time terran's position is such that you not going to come from 3 sides and even if you will, tanks will kill you.
On April 17 2011 21:05 Iatrik wrote: I don't think , the game itself is responsible for all of this "flaws". Of course there are a lot of "momentum-changer" like a 4-Gate, Lava-Inject, Reactors etc. that can simply decide a battle, because you just have more units at a specific time.
But i think, the big problem are the players themself. Take a look at all the units in the game and start to think...
For example [as P]: I have a 125/50 Stalker. It gets owned by a 100/25 Marauder or 2 75/50 Roaches easily. So why mind building them? Well. A Stalker is not a real "fighting" unit. It's fast, blink makes it faster.
You can outplay our opponent hard by using warp prism,stalker,blink,dark templar,pylons,phoenix,colossi [No joke, why do you think, he can walk on cliffs?] etc.
A 100/0 Zealot has one of the sickest DPSs in the game. But why don't you really "feel" it? Because most of us literally 1-A. Ever thought of flanking with zealots, so they really can do their damage?
The problem is, that everybody just tries to outmuscle his opponent. Build a army, attack, win. That's the mindset.
As P, your supposed to harass your opponent to death. As T, your supposed to outmuscle your opponent with proper unit-mixes. As Z, your supposed to keep your opponent low while getting stronger yourself.
But since everybody tries to just attack and win, you really can't see a battle with a lot of things at the same time.
Wouldn't be suprised to see a Blink-Stalker/DT composition in PvZ and a shift in PvT (T getting dropped instead of P) That's why TvZ feels so balanced right now. Both races try to play the role, they are supposed to play.
TvP feels strange, because you are not supposed to outmuscle you opponent as P, so you rely too much on your colossus. 1 Colossus more or less already makes a huge difference.It just feels strange.
ZvP feels very difficult as Z, because you just don't keep your opponents army low. If a harass vs harass race plays, the player that harasses more, will win. Simple as that. Players qqed about the "Deathball" a very long time. Why? Because they didn't harass and became too passive.
The game itself has everything it needs. The metagame lacks a lot, because we still don't really UNDERSTAND! the game. Might really take 1-2 years or a brilliant tournament win (like Bisu's inovative PvZ for a 3-0 final win) to see the game in a different way.
But sadly, it's very rare to see a very good and creative player at the same time. Imagine 1 strong IdrA combined with a creativity like TLO or Catz.
that post doesnt make sense at all. If protos can easily be passive and saturate his 3 bases and come out with big army which is even better than terrans army, then how can possibly protos be based on harass?
Doesnt make sense. Protos has the most strongest momentum of all maxed armies, so protos is actually the race, which is based on outmuscleing the opponent.
Terran is the race, which need to harass other races to win.
I will answer this question by asking a question. Why a battle of maxed armies?
On April 17 2011 21:33 Iatrik wrote: Why a battle of maxed armies?
Because protos can do it?
Protos dont really need to attack before he is maxed. Also Idra has stated this before in one interview.
Terran is really the race which is absolutely dependant on harassing. Because of two reasons: 1. Terran has inferior macro mechanics than zerg. 2. Terran has less effective max army than protos.
The real roles of races:
Terran = constant harass Protos = holding attacks of other races and coming to kill them with superior army Zerg = outmuscleing enemy by keeping their economy low while getting own economy better so zerg can do multiple waves and take the win by that
On April 17 2011 21:33 Iatrik wrote: Why a battle of maxed armies?
Because protos can do it?
Protos dont really need to attack before he is maxed. Also Idra has stated this before in one interview.
No , you cant And harass is the reason why. It's like a blind counter thing.
Let me explain this VERY simple, because it seems to be to hard to understand. Before trying to unterstand, watch Mondragon vs. Zerrax in the TSL Ro32. Now think.
P tries to build up and gets dropped. A good drop will T/Z give an advantage. Why? Because P tries to outmuscle. Repeat, Walk over Protoss.
I'm really talking about drop and no "I'm Diamond and just throw away some units"
So how can I (as a P) respond to this? Well. I don't try to build up in the first place. Once this happens, a T won't be able to drop you, because you have superior mobility. Because there are no Colossus (Power-Units) to aggressivly deny, you are basicly able to just kill P. But why not use this mobility of your units as P to harass yourself? That way, the game will shift. Easy as that.
A statement by IdrA doesn't mean a lot (although he is a very good and talented player), because he is basicly trapped into this "Macro-till-one-big-thing"-mindset. As a Z, he doesn't try to win with one push, but by one big defense.
He tries to be aggressive, but being aggressive and harassing are 2 different shoes.
*edit* Do me a favour and don't even think about maxed armies. In a "real game" (the way it's supposed to be played), you just don't get maxed, because there's really something happening.
On April 17 2011 21:34 Axeinst wrote: The real roles of races:
Terran = constant harass Protos = holding attacks of other races and coming to kill them with superior army Zerg = outmuscleing enemy by keeping their economy low while getting own economy better so zerg can do multiple waves and take the win by that.
That are not the "real roles of races". That are the current "meta-game-roles".
Protos can deny drops and be passive until max army, newsflash for you. Also its not like protos doesnt have any army when drops come....
And one game doesnt prove anything about how the whole game should be played, doh.
Protos dont need to harass at all, it is the current metagame and probably will be the case in the future too, unless patch changes something. It just comes from the fact, that protos benefits most from being passive and saturating 3 bases.
On April 17 2011 21:51 Axeinst wrote: Protos can deny drops and be passive until max army, newsflash for you. Also its not like protos doesnt have any army when drops come....
And one game doesnt prove anything about how the whole game should be played, doh.
Protos dont need to harass at all, it is the current metagame and probably will be the case in the future too, unless patch changes something. It just comes from the fact, that protos benefits most from being passive and saturating 3 bases.
I just won't argue with you , since you seem to be way too stupid to understand. A protoss ,that is able to deny drops, is spread out and can be attacked in the front with a big push. A protoss, that is able to deny a big push, is close together and easy to harass. Easy, isn't it?
The only way, a protoss can deny drops AND a big push, is by getting aggressive, so a potential push will be weaken so much, that it won't be a real threat. A P in the production-line of T is way stronger as vice versa.
The colossus will just be a unit to "seal the deal".
But hey, a T/Z with low-tier units that tries to fight a P with high-tier units once their maxed, is supposed to beat the P. Guess that's what you try to tell me, isn't it?
Guess where's the mistake?
Again. I'm talkin about the way, the game is meant to be played. Not about the way, it is played.
What? Most macro maps now are completely open and if it's marine tank, your banelings will be chasing him in from the front, how does the Terran deal with this? Move backwards. How do you counter this? Have either hidden banelings behind of flank with an amount of banelings. He can't stop to shoot you anve he can't really split to deal with two seperate directions of attack when it comes to banelings.
The game IS a lot faster. Armies are decimated in seconds since battles happen so quickly there's little time to perform strategies during fights. It's almost as if somebody decided to make a Command and Conquer game with SC2 lore!
why are people calling this thread great? Well, the OP was really interesting and, even if u think otherwise, it points towards some possible improvements. But the thread later on, was ppl always bringing the same arguments over and over again. And some others arguing about irrelevant stuff. on topic: (as others already said :p) let's wait what hots brings, and if people continue to show weaknesses sc2 has Blizz has the possibility to evaluate and improve the game and I guess thats what everyone wants
I'm not sure what is missing from SC2 but I definitely feel like something is gone. When I go back thinking about broodwar it would have that feeling of awesome and ... well its hard to explain.
SC2 eliminated the possibility for smurfing which I thought was pretty fun factor of the game, you also cant just be like "I dont like my name, might as well create a new account". SC2 doesnt put you in a chat room so you feel all alone when you are playing ladder. You can join a chat room now... but still that can be minimized and you aren't in one all the time... idk. I loved the feeling of after logging on to bnet I would see all these people online for the same game I love.
Also I will get owned on 1a2a3a BW maps but when I go to SC2 1a2a3a I'm somehow awesome. Anyhow, the game is still young... it could possibly turn into a game where I get the feeling I was hoping for one day.
EPT
