EPTtank > tank
vulture > hellion
goliath > thor (cost effectively)
wraith > banshee+viking
medic > medivac
Only the marine is better now^^
If BW Units fought SC2 Units.... - Page 19
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Cosmos
Belgium1077 Posts
tank > tank vulture > hellion goliath > thor (cost effectively) wraith > banshee+viking medic > medivac Only the marine is better now^^ | ||
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Foo.2
6 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 15 2011 06:58 Cosmos wrote: Meh that's debatable. Medivacs heal at the rate of 3hp per energy while medics only heal at a rate of 2 health per energy. Marines on the other hand are IMO stronger in bw due to more powerful stim, but yea they're a lot squishier. Wraiths were pretty boss but personally I feel that the split into banshee+Viking was a good one. Banshees have inane atg dps and Vikings are pretty decent ata too.All the terran units in broodwar are stronger than the terran units in sc2 xd tank > tank vulture > hellion goliath > thor (cost effectively) wraith > banshee+viking medic > medivac Only the marine is better now^^ | ||
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AssuredVacancy
United States1167 Posts
On April 15 2011 07:14 Ryuu314 wrote: Meh that's debatable. Medivacs heal at the rate of 3hp per energy while medics only heal at a rate of 2 health per energy. Marines on the other hand are IMO stronger in bw due to more powerful stim, but yea they're a lot squishier. Wraiths were pretty boss but personally I feel that the split into banshee+Viking was a good one. Banshees have inane atg dps and Vikings are pretty decent ata too. marines in sc2 is better imo because of their superior shooting animation. being able to shoot and run is pretty imba vs a lurk ling army | ||
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RDaneelOlivaw
Vatican City State733 Posts
On April 15 2011 07:14 Ryuu314 wrote: Meh that's debatable. Medivacs heal at the rate of 3hp per energy while medics only heal at a rate of 2 health per energy. Marines on the other hand are IMO stronger in bw due to more powerful stim, but yea they're a lot squishier. Wraiths were pretty boss but personally I feel that the split into banshee+Viking was a good one. Banshees have inane atg dps and Vikings are pretty decent ata too. Technically speaking wouldn't it be better to compare the Viking to the Valkyrie? | ||
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AeTheReal
United States108 Posts
On April 15 2011 03:31 Jotoco wrote: I think that we could transfer mostly everything. And I think bringing BW units to SC2 would be easier than the other way around. Medium could be considered the "nothing" in SC2, because it would not be either light nor armored. That also means that damage types from BW units would either do full damage, or very little. High ground mechanic should use BOTH. Miss chance and vision. That way to would be more fair, since otherwise BW units would be too screwed. Either that or don't have any high ground advantage at all. About the unit pathing... Either we use BW maps with BW pathing or SC2 maps with SC2 pathing, because SC2 maps have many more chokes and points that would bug out BW AI. About surviving the early game, I think the High Ground mechanics should help A LOT, coupled that BW defenses were awesome. Sunkens are.... OP. Photon Cannons did more damage, as well. Spider Mines were >>>>> Banes. Also Shield Batteries were excellent for defense. I imagine a couple of goons and a shield battery could slaughter something like 6 to 8 stalkers in a defensive position, or at least 4 in the open. Medium cannot be treated as untyped armor. That would completely change how they work. If anything, they should take base damage plus 33% of any bonus damage vs light or 50% of any bonus damage vs armored. For example, stalkers would do 12 damage (10 +50% of +4) to bw hydras with that setup. I think this would make the most sense. SC2 archons would be weird as well. Would you have to consider them small vs explosive attacks and large vs concussive attacks because of how its armor type works in SC2? By having both high ground mechanics do you mean having the miss chance and no return fire without high ground vision? You could shoot back at any unit attacking from high ground in BW without getting vision but you can't in SC2. Sunkens are not OP. They would actually do worse vs SC2 P and T. They attack slower than spine crawlers and do less damage against non-armored units comparatively. They also cost more, take longer to build, while having the same defensive stat as spine crawlers. The only thing good about them is that they do better damage against heavy armored units compared to spine crawlers - not to mention sunkens can't reposition themselves. If stalkers are considered large units by bw standards, then they are worse than dragoons for sure, but if they are considered medium then they become about equal - until blink comes into play. On April 15 2011 05:04 Ryuu314 wrote: Erm...no. If you tried to micro phoenix against scourge you'd eventually have to back up to the point where your colossi are exposed. If 50 scourge a-moved into say 15 phoenixes, there's no way they will be able to stop them from reaching the colossi. If 50 scourge a-moved into 15 corsairs they'll all evaporate simultaneously. The reason why corsairs were so damn strong was even though they do very little damage per hit, they have an incredibly high rate of fire and, most importantly, they do splash damage in a pretty significant aoe. Corsairs>Phoenixes anyday in terms of utility and usefulness. I don't think the 50 scourge scenario is very realistic. Zerg needs 25 larvae, 625 minerals, and 1875 gas to make that in a batch. Just the larvae cost is tremendous (over 8 hatchery full of larvae) so it's probably very unlikely for that scenario to pop up. Corsairs could hold it off, but only if they were coming from mostly one direction. It would also depend on upgrades there too. Twelve phoenix could theoretically shoot down up to 6 scourge per volley and does not rely on splash damage. While this could not take down larger flocks of scourge as easily, it's an unlikely scenario anyways and will be able to destroy smaller groups of scourge without taking damage. Also, do not it takes 4 scourge (50 minerals, 150 gas) to take down a colossi. You need that much plus however many gets shot down by the phoenix. Corsairs have to hit a critical mass of 4 or 5 before they can take down any scourges while phoenix can do that even as a single unit. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
On April 14 2011 10:08 scintilliaSD wrote: I think SC2 Protoss would beat SC1 Protoss. This is assuming a world where SC2 units behave like SC2 units, and SC1 units behave like SC1 units. Zealot charge is superior to Zealot leg speed. Stalkers move faster than Dragoons and can Blink at the cost of a little less health. SC1 High Templar can't deal with the long range Feedback of SC2 High Templar, although Dark Archons in the equation will quickly turn this around. SC2 Dark Templar do more damage than SC1 Dark Templar. The Sentry, which has no real SC1 equivalent, brutally shifts things in favor of SC2 Protoss, as Force Fields take advantage of both stupid Dragoon AI and stupid scarab AI. Imagine if every scarab shot you fired had to make its way around a mineral line? The Shuttle beats the Warp Prism in survivability, but lacks the ability to drop more than 4 units at a time. Immortals are better overall against the SC1 Protoss army than the Reaver is against the much more mobile SC2 Protoss army, and absolutely destroy the Reaver 1v1. Colossus can take advantage of weak SC1 Protoss anti-air, although lose straight up to Dark Archons due to Mind Control. Observers... are observers. There's no increased sight range in SC2, so I guess SC1 Observers win? The Scout loses handily to the Void Ray in all forms of combat. The Phoenix and Corsair both provide similar roles in the game, but Disruption Web over an army that can Blink is much less useful than lifting up Reavers and High Templars is. SC2 Carriers do more DPS than SC1 Carriers do, and they fire their Interceptors out much more quickly. The Arbiter kicks the crap out of the Mothership hands down, but I believe that Force Field overall is more potent than Stasis in this example. Uhh I don't think so. Dragoons would rape everything. Huge range and high dps. Stalkers would have to come close to shoot, meanwhile getting destroyed from afar. More range = free shots + more of your units fire in battle than the opponent's. Goon range negates sentry FF. You can easily shoot down sentries from below ramps, and in battles FF doesn't help against high range units. Stasis with sc2 mechanics rapes everything. Units get clumped up more easily = 1 stasis can hold half your army while the other half gets destroyed. The only reason stasis was not OP in BW was because units didn't get clumped and so you couldn't stasis many units at once. In SC2, stasis would be OP. Way cheaper recall. Corsairs vs voids = no contest, sairs destroy anything airborne, especially in sc2 where units get clumped. I also think even scouts would beat voids if microed properly. Not sure about this. Also, your mothership gets mind-controlled, you lose instantly. Mothership would be useless in PvP bw vs sc2. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
BW Zerglings beats SC2 Zerglings in every way. BW Hydras beats SC2 Hydras. Banelings beat BW Zerglings. Banelings beat BW Hydras (only if Hydras aren't upgraded) SC2 Queens beat BW Queens only if BW Queens don't have broodlings. Other than that, BW Queens would still fuck up your army with that ensare. Brood Lords versus Guardians = draw; however, if it's a base race Brood Lords win. BW Mutalisks beat SC2 Mutalisks. BW Mutalisks beat Corruptors. Fully upgrades BW Ultralisk beats fully upgraded SC2 Ultralisk. Devourers beat Corruptors and Scourges in numbers would just fuck any air unit composition up. Defilers would mess up everything, but they cannot kill anything on their own; whereas, Infestors can spawn Infested Terrans or take over a unit. Still Defilers are the shit. They are game changers. Marauders w/ conclusive shells would beat Firebats. Reapers beat Firebats. Marines with shield beat BW Marines. BW Marine with Medic beats Marine with shield. Marine with Medivac owns any Marine/Firebat composition. It really comes down to upgrades for infantry. BW Tanks beat SC2 Tanks. SC2 BC patch beats BW BC. Valkyries own any SC2 Terran Air Unit. 3-4 would manhandle a fully upgraded BC in SC2. Vulture with speed rape Blue Flame Hellions. Thor beats Goliath. If there are 3+ Goliaths versus a Thor then they win. If Thor has SCVs to repair, then it will win. Cost effectiveness goes to Goliath. Goliath beats Viking on Ground. Wraith beats Viking and Banshee (lmao). Science Vessel loses to Raven without support. Stalkers with blink/Sentry beat clunky Dragoon AI. Closi a-move beats Reavers (Reaver w/ damage upgrade, or shuttle wins as long as scarabs don't bug out and you have income!). BW Speed Zealot beats SC2 Zealot with charge. BW Shield Battery makes climbing up any ramp next to impossible unless unit composition is close to 3:1. BW Templar beats SC2 Templar. BW Archon beats SC2 Archon. BW Dark Templar beats SC2 Dark Templar. Corsair owns Phoenix. Phoenix owns Scout. Void Ray owns Scout. Void Ray owns Corsair. BW Carrier owns Phoenix/Void Ray/SC2 Carrier. Arbiter owns Mothership. BW Observer versus SC2 Observer = a draw; however, BW Observer owns turrets whereas SC2 Observer does not! | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
Medic: tier 1, has energy upgrade, can cast optical flare (sc2 ovies can't detect). And they're much cheaper than medivacs. Also, you can produce medics from all of your barracks, so you can get like 10 at the same time if you need. No need to build factory + starport + reactor at all. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
However, I assume that the significant engine differences do make a huge difference in how the "different" ranges are perceived. In order for the Dragoon to "feel" like the BW version while in the SC2 engine, its range might need to be adjusted to be above the original value of 6. Otherwise, it technically would have the same range as the Stalker. If that is the case, then early Stalker rushes might do significant damage to unupgraded, 4-range Dragoons. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On April 15 2011 08:26 StarStruck wrote: Roaches w/ burrow beat Hydras (SC1 counterpart). Without burrow or regen, Roaches would die very fast to a BW ling/hydra combination. BW Zerglings beats SC2 Zerglings in every way. BW Hydras beats SC2 Hydras. Banelings beat BW Zerglings. Banelings beat BW Hydras (only if Hydras aren't upgraded) SC2 Queens beat BW Queens only if BW Queens don't have broodlings. Other than that, BW Queens would still fuck up your army with that ensare. Brood Lords versus Guardians = draw; however, if it's a base race Brood Lords win. BW Mutalisks beat SC2 Mutalisks. BW Mutalisks beat Corruptors. Fully upgrades BW Ultralisk beats fully upgraded SC2 Ultralisk. Devourers beat Corruptors and Scourges in numbers would just fuck any air unit composition up. Defilers would mess up everything, but they cannot kill anything on their own; whereas, Infestors can spawn Infested Terrans or take over a unit. Still Defilers are the shit. They are game changers. Marauders w/ conclusive shells would beat Firebats. Reapers beat Firebats. Marines with shield beat BW Marines. BW Marine with Medic beats Marine with shield. Marine with Medivac owns any Marine/Firebat composition. It really comes down to upgrades for infantry. BW Tanks beat SC2 Tanks. SC2 BC patch beats BW BC. Valkyries own any SC2 Terran Air Unit. 3-4 would manhandle a fully upgraded BC in SC2. Vulture with speed rape Blue Flame Hellions. Thor beats Goliath. If there are 3+ Goliaths versus a Thor then they win. If Thor has SCVs to repair, then it will win. Cost effectiveness goes to Goliath. Goliath beats Viking on Ground. Wraith beats Viking and Banshee (lmao). Science Vessel loses to Raven without support. Stalkers with blink/Sentry beat clunky Dragoon AI. Closi a-move beats Reavers (Reaver w/ damage upgrade, or shuttle wins as long as scarabs don't bug out and you have income!). BW Speed Zealot beats SC2 Zealot with charge. BW Shield Battery makes climbing up any ramp next to impossible unless unit composition is close to 3:1. BW Templar beats SC2 Templar. BW Archon beats SC2 Archon. BW Dark Templar beats SC2 Dark Templar. Corsair owns Phoenix. Phoenix owns Scout. Void Ray owns Scout. Void Ray owns Corsair. BW Carrier owns Phoenix/Void Ray/SC2 Carrier. Arbiter owns Mothership. BW Observer versus SC2 Observer = a draw; however, BW Observer owns turrets whereas SC2 Observer does not! the SC2 marine after stim shoots 2.32 hits/second ( 45 hp from 55 / 50% stim / stats under quickest setting available ) the SC1 marine after stim shoots 3.2 hits/second ( 30 hp from 40 / 100% stim / stats under quickest setting available ) they actually die at around the same rate if they shot each other after stim, but the newer one is better vs splash damage, while the other is better for killing things straight up one requires 4+1 range while the other starts out with 5+0 lings vs lings are the only one that is just better in every way ( same cost/same hp/quicker attack rates ) 1.90 / adrenaline 2.34 and 3.00 / adrenaline 4.00 lings would be down to 15 hp and 5 hp after 2 seconds in a fight ( you'd win in a rush ) goons are 4+2 range vs stalkers 6+0 the hydras are only better due to 1 food cost, but the 5+1 vs 4+1 range and +2 damage sort of makes up for the cost, except the new one is also slower 4x12 damage ( 400/200 min/gas / 320 hp / longer range / 2 food ) /new 5x10 damage ( 375/125 min/gas / 400 hp / shorter range / 1 food ) /old | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
1) 4 warpgate = dead SC1 T, Z, P. Do a quick 4 warpgate, hell do the whole 4 warpgate with only zealots that comes SUPER Early... Now tell me what an SC1 player can do to live through that. 5 minute mark... 8+ zealots. and the SC1 player has 2-3 units... ya... 2) 7rr = dead SC1, T, Z, P. Again same thing, comes around 5:25 with 7 roaches... nothing can defend against this in SC1. 3) 2 rax. DEAD sc1 T, Z, P... dead, oh so dead, very very dead. Early agression = SC2 wins hands down. - - - - You let it get to late game, and ya, SC1 has an advantage, but SC2 would never let that happen. Half our tournaments end stupidly quickly, this would be no different. But even then, SC2 P wins all match-up as SC1 cannot use a single spell ever... SC2 feedback on HT = range 9. Meaning no more spell casting from SC1 casters, period. Then you have immortals, which make siege tanks and reavers useless. Lets not even get to how good VRs and Pheonix would be vs SC1 races... | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
If we're comparing gateways to warp-gates then ofc! O; | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
Toss BW vs Toss SC2 I think Toss SC2 would win, solely because of the strenght of Colossi and their splash damage would wreck the hell out of Toss BW. I doubt Arbiters freeze (forgot the name  ) would work on Colossi since they are massive (trollface.jpg). Plus you have Forcefields which would heavily split the Toss BW army and make it hard for Goons to do dps.Zerg BW vs Zerg SC2 Landslide win for Zerg BW, the only unit SC2 Zerg would really have as a threat is the Roach. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On April 15 2011 08:56 Insanious wrote: People seem to forget a few things... Mainly SC2 cheese. 1) 4 warpgate = dead SC1 T, Z, P. Do a quick 4 warpgate, hell do the whole 4 warpgate with only zealots that comes SUPER Early... Now tell me what an SC1 player can do to live through that. 5 minute mark... 8+ zealots. and the SC1 player has 2-3 units... ya... 2) 7rr = dead SC1, T, Z, P. Again same thing, comes around 5:25 with 7 roaches... nothing can defend against this in SC1. 3) 2 rax. DEAD sc1 T, Z, P... dead, oh so dead, very very dead. Early agression = SC2 wins hands down. - - - - You let it get to late game, and ya, SC1 has an advantage, but SC2 would never let that happen. Half our tournaments end stupidly quickly, this would be no different. But even then, SC2 P wins all match-up as SC1 cannot use a single spell ever... SC2 feedback on HT = range 9. Meaning no more spell casting from SC1 casters, period. Then you have immortals, which make siege tanks and reavers useless. Lets not even get to how good VRs and Pheonix would be vs SC1 races... Shield Batteries. Spider Mines. OP Sunkens and lings. And later, as I have pointed out possibly more than 5 times already, but you didn't put an effort to read the thread. Feedback has shorter range than Mind Control. Defilers laugh at feedbacks and Siege Tanks still outrange templars. Not to mention any unit could simply snipe then. Immortals: Terran Lockdown/100%stim marines. Zerg: Dark Swarm/Spawn Broodling/OP lings. Protoss: Mind Control/Disruption Web/Actually useful Carriers VR/Phoenix: Terran: Lockdown/Goliath/Valkirie. Zerg: Useful Hydras/Dark Swarm/Devourers/SCOURGE. Protoss: Scout/Corsairs/Storm/Mind Control/Useful Archons/Carriers | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On April 15 2011 09:06 StarStruck wrote: That wasn't part of the question. We're comparing the units to the units. If we're comparing gateways to warp-gates then ofc! O; K... are we comparing them 1 v 1 or over a unit of time... because I could say: - 2 base - 1 min of build time then sc2 wins very match up ever due to amount of units. - - - - - Or are we comparing random units vs random units? Like how SC2 HT kills 100% of SC1 casters with range 9 feed back. Like how SC2 Ghost kills 100% of SC1 bio units with snipe, very easily Like how SC2 Marauders >>>>> any SC1 "mech" (large) ground units due to slow + stim + armor + life + bonus damage. Like how mass overseers = gg SC1 production. Like how fungal >>>>> anything but siege tank in SC1 (Range 9). What else... banshees, SOOOOOOO much damage. The sentry, makes any battle so one sided for SC2 P. The baneling, sooooooooooooo strong vs pretty much everything in SC1. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On April 15 2011 09:11 Tyree wrote: Maxed out with all upgrades Toss BW vs Toss SC2 I think Toss SC2 would win, solely because of the strenght of Colossi and their splash damage would wreck the hell out of Toss BW. I doubt Arbiters freeze (forgot the name ) would work on Colossi since they are massive (trollface.jpg). Plus you have Forcefields which would heavily split the Toss BW army and make it hard for Goons to do dps.Zerg BW vs Zerg SC2 Landslide win for Zerg BW, the only unit SC2 Zerg would really have as a threat is the Roach. If the Brood War army has a few arbiters and use stasis that turns the battle completely in their favor. 4 reavers could also crush the ground forces unless force fields bug the AI. The difference maker would be the fact stalkers can blink out whereas the goons would have to dance and yes, their AI is shit. It would come down to a few good stasis fields. Considering PvP armies are normally very goon heavy, yes I would say the SC2 army would win on that fact alone because dragoons are inferior to stalkers. Insanious, I'm assuming the OP meant SC2 units compared to their counterparts in BW (unit to unit in that regard). I kept structures consistent in my analysis because adding that in, would add a whole different layer to the conversation. By merging the two worlds together some things have to remain consistent. I kept building times and structures consistent. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 15 2011 07:45 AeTheReal wrote: I don't think the 50 scourge scenario is very realistic. Zerg needs 25 larvae, 625 minerals, and 1875 gas to make that in a batch. Just the larvae cost is tremendous (over 8 hatchery full of larvae) so it's probably very unlikely for that scenario to pop up. Corsairs could hold it off, but only if they were coming from mostly one direction. It would also depend on upgrades there too. Twelve phoenix could theoretically shoot down up to 6 scourge per volley and does not rely on splash damage. While this could not take down larger flocks of scourge as easily, it's an unlikely scenario anyways and will be able to destroy smaller groups of scourge without taking damage. Also, do not it takes 4 scourge (50 minerals, 150 gas) to take down a colossi. You need that much plus however many gets shot down by the phoenix. Corsairs have to hit a critical mass of 4 or 5 before they can take down any scourges while phoenix can do that even as a single unit. While, yes, corsairs need critical mass, phoenix can only hit one scourge at a time. Even in SC2, overkill does exist for all units that dont' have instantaneous shots. As a result, phoenixes will overkill scourges extremely badly (unless you had insane APM) and woudln't be all that effective at taking out massive flocks of scourge. While my assumption of 50 scourge is unrealistic, high scourge numbers (12+) isn't really all that rare considering one larva pops 2 scourge and scourge is already a pretty common counter against air for Zerg. In low numbers, sure, phoenix will outperform corsairs as anti-scourge, but as the numbers increase, corsairs become much much better as anti-air than phoenix. And realistically, it really doesn't take all that long for a Protoss to get 4-5 corsairs assuming they play pretty standard. Phoenixes also require a similar critical mass in combating mutalisks anyways. Not to mention devourers would absolutely rape colossi just as hard (or harder) as corrupters currently do. On April 15 2011 07:30 GGTesomas wrote: Technically speaking wouldn't it be better to compare the Viking to the Valkyrie? Well imo the Valk attack is more similar to the Thor anti-air: lots of low damage hits, while Wraith anti-air is more similar to Viking anti-air: 2 hits of medium damage hits. On April 15 2011 09:11 Tyree wrote: Maxed out with all upgrades Toss BW vs Toss SC2 I think Toss SC2 would win, solely because of the strenght of Colossi and their splash damage would wreck the hell out of Toss BW. I doubt Arbiters freeze (forgot the name ) would work on Colossi since they are massive (trollface.jpg). Plus you have Forcefields which would heavily split the Toss BW army and make it hard for Goons to do dps.Zerg BW vs Zerg SC2 Landslide win for Zerg BW, the only unit SC2 Zerg would really have as a threat is the Roach. I'm pretty sure stasis isn't stopped by unit size... Also if colossi are really a problem, BW Protoss can always mind control. The only thing that really stopped DA usage from being super popular in BW was mechanical limitations. With smartcast, DAs would absolutely rape. EDIT: For context, I forget but I'm pretty sure it was Bisu himself who said in an interview that while Dark archons were extremely powerful (especially in PvZ) he couldn't afford to spend APM on controlling DAs since the APM was much more necessary for storms and other basic macro and micro mechanics. The same is true for queens (spawn broodling and ensnare) in non ZvZ match-ups along with the ghost in non late-game TvT match-ups. | ||
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Insanious
Canada1251 Posts
On April 15 2011 09:15 Jotoco wrote: Shield Batteries. Spider Mines. OP Sunkens and lings. - 2gate - 4 warp gate - 2 rax - 7rr - 5rr - 6 pool All come before these can be made in SC1 due to economics. 4 workers vs 6 workers 5 workers vs 7 workers etc etc... SC1 dies to SC2 cheese 100% of time, sorry  ...Hell let's take this as an example: SC2 terran vs SC1 terran: SC2 terran resources needed for a 2 rax: - 2 rax - 1 supply depot = 400 minerals SC1 terran resources needed for a vulture - 1 rax - 1 factory - 1 refinery = 450 minerals + 100 gas So before the SC1 player has a vulture, he will be behind the SC1 T by 250 minerals... so say 2 workers (so 4 workers vs 8 workers) and 3 marines... SC1 terran dies... 3 marines vs nothing, then vulture = 75 minerals and 30 seconds to build, so then it becomes 5 marines vs 1 vulture... etc, etc... this works for 100% of SC1 stuff. Also SC2 6 pool hits before SC1 4 pool  . | ||
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