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On April 10 2011 22:37 Insanious wrote:The only way this will take off is if we can cater to the lowest common denominator, we need to be able to get your aging parents, you grandparents, your uncles, aunts, and 10 year old siblings watching SC2 who currently thing SC2 is just a game and not interesting. A business will not care if YOU tune into their event, since you already watch SC2 so you are already part of the market. To grow e-sports you need to turn the red area into the blue area... the blue area is already doing what we want and as such catering to them will not help grow the blue area it will simply help keep the blue area the exact same size...
Your argument is flawed because sc2 fans are no longer starved for sc2 content. Do you think Europeans will watch the IGN pro league if they have unwatched GSL or NASL matchest to watch?
Even as a resident of NA if there is a higher quality match up on NASL today and I have limited time, which lets face it, if you limit yourself to a set number of players you will less often have the better match up, then I'm going to watch the NASL instead of IGN.
In summary, getting new fans is important, but ignoring old fans, when they have options, will leave you without them.
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To be honest, CatZ is right. He's actually got one of the best insights on the NA Scene that i've ever heard. CatZ and AskJoshy fighting!
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I will start off by saying if you havn't read nazgul post , go and read it.
catz comments and reading some of the responds here reminded me of
"dont let black people play in the NBA because they are too good and the white people wont have anyone to relate to ".
i hope i dont offend catz which gave so much more to esport then me but the underlying
of removing part of the participant because of their high skill level according to race just make me feel utterly sick. europeans are okay but koreans no ? how about canadian ? why ?
maybe because catz feel less threathened by them ....
covering it behind as blind patriosim doesnt solve the moral issue for me.
one more comment really striked a nerve for me
"the normal viewer will not appriciate the level of the game and its more important for him to have someone he can relate to"
okay i will tell you what
instead of wierd geeks lets have only people who can pass really good on cammera .
if you dont have at least two past showes in tv (can be commercials) and you havn't passed
a fashion test you cannot enter the league .
i am sure the people can relate to rebecca black much better then lets say idra
skill level of games does not matter right ?
at any competitive sport the casual viewer must be able to enjoy high level performance .
if not just strach the whole silly playing the game thing and make it into a telenovela.
yes i am taking it to the extreeme but yes i think saying skill level is irrelevent is that stupid.
when i was at bronze watching only few matches i could tell the diffrence between random MLG match code A and code S match
and any big tournament will live and die on how good the matches are ,
thats 90% of the time and 90% of the reason i tune in .
rest been really said before and i will not repeat ,
i am very excited for NASL , their site is amazing and the roster is intriging . forieniers fighting !
(but in order to fight they need a worthy opponent ... )
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I just think that you should just call the NASL a different name because it really has nothing to do with North America lol. It really is misleading.
To me, a REAL NASL would be the equivalent of the GSL in the sense that players show up to an actual venue to play their games instead of online, but this is asking a lot because I'm not sure how many top North American players are actually willing to make this transition from conveniently playing in their living rooms to living a life like the koreans do.
On an unrelated note: Idra could have stayed in Korea and participated in both the GSL and NASL
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On April 10 2011 23:12 ReaperX wrote:
To be honest, CatZ is right. He's actually got one of the best insights on the NA Scene that i've ever heard. CatZ and AskJoshy fighting!
You're trolling right? For 10 minutes, he tries really hard to find an analogy for his opinion and fails miserably. There's no insight into he NA scene whatsoever.
I don't share his views at all. There's no difference between a korean and anybody else apart from how much they commit their lifestyle to the game. This whole argument is an insult to any serious athlete on the planet. Imagine a juvenile Rooney complain about Ronaldo because he's brazilian and Brazilians win everyting, R-O-F-L.
What happens when you have "exclusive" leagues has already been demonstrated by american soccer - it's batshit terrible, no competition and the world holds no interest for it.
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I see no problem inviting a few Koreans to events in North America. If the NASL was to invite the actual top 50 best players, you can bet most of the players would be Korean, but they also want to invest in the Western scene. Take for example, baseball in Japan, or Football in Canada. Japanese baseball has a limit on how many foreign players can play for each team, and canadian football has that same limit as well, so they can attempt to bring up talent from their own regions. Without those rules, the CFL would be 99% american and the Japanese baseball clubs would also be filled with american players.
By restricting the amount of foreign players they accept, they allow local grown talent to prosper. Obviously you won't want to do this forever, or else the skill level and game will suffer, but as a short term tactic I see no problem with it.
With prize pools like NASL and IPL, I hope it gives teams the motivation to start their own gaming houses (like we have seen with root) and really work towards bringing the practice level up to what the Korean players are already at.
I would really like to see offline only events take place like the GSL and EPS, but in North America and Europe because we would see the most dedicated Koreans moving there to compete, like some NA and European players did for GSL.
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On April 10 2011 23:59 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 23:12 ReaperX wrote:
To be honest, CatZ is right. He's actually got one of the best insights on the NA Scene that i've ever heard. CatZ and AskJoshy fighting! You're trolling right? For 10 minutes, he tries really hard to find an analogy for his opinion and fails miserably. There's no insight into he NA scene whatsoever. I don't share his views at all. There's no difference between a korean and anybody else apart from how much they commit their lifestyle to the game. This whole argument is an insult to any serious athlete on the planet. Imagine a juvenile Rooney complain about Ronaldo because he's brazilian and Brazilians win everyting, R-O-F-L. What happens when you have "exclusive" leagues has already been demonstrated by american soccer - it's batshit terrible, no competition and the world holds no interest for it.
Your comparison to soccer doesn't make any sense. You ever heard of the 6+5 rule?
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Lalalaland34501 Posts
I wonder how I would react to this if I had heard it from the mouth of someone else instead of catz. I like catz so I think it may have caused some bias in my reaction.
But for now I just think they shouldn't name it NASL and should perhaps call it something like International Starcraft League.
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On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I[...]
The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans?
Interesting facts about the amount of salaried Koreans. I think that says a lot.
Catz does have a point about the sponsorships though; let's say you're sponsored by Mountain Dew. They are not gonna care about sending you to Korea or Europe because they don't sell Mountain Dew there, and no one is going to buy Mountain Dew there. The same goes for some Korean-only product.
So that makes regional growth all the more important.
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On April 11 2011 00:13 seaofsaturn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I[...]
The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans? Interesting facts about the amount of salaried Koreans. I think that says a lot. Catz does have a point about the sponsorships though; let's say you're sponsored by Mountain Dew. They are not gonna care about sending you to Korea or Europe because they don't sell Mountain Dew there, and no one is going to buy Mountain Dew there. The same goes for some Korean-only product. So that makes regional growth all the more important.
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. That makes regional growth bad for the sc2 community, if players are forced to play in lesser tournaments just because they can't find global sponsors.
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It seems to me a lot of the top Western players want all the benfits of being a pro gamer (ie the money and the efame) without taking any of the drawbacks. If you're making your living entirely from playing SC2 then you need to treat it like a job, not a hobby. There's nothing but a lack of self-discipline preventing the top players in Europe and North America from practicing as much as the Koreans.
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On April 11 2011 00:15 alexhard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 00:13 seaofsaturn wrote:On April 10 2011 09:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I[...]
The biggest difference between the scenes is teamhouses and a cultural difference in attitude. Besides that though I Catz overrates the SC2 scene in Korea in terms of development and infrastructure. Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous). The salary is a lot better outside of Korea than it is inside. Looking at what a noname Korean is putting into this game while he sleeps in bunkbeds and barely has money to do anything besides eating and sleeping, why exactly are we discussing how we can make things harder for Koreans? Interesting facts about the amount of salaried Koreans. I think that says a lot. Catz does have a point about the sponsorships though; let's say you're sponsored by Mountain Dew. They are not gonna care about sending you to Korea or Europe because they don't sell Mountain Dew there, and no one is going to buy Mountain Dew there. The same goes for some Korean-only product. So that makes regional growth all the more important. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. That makes regional growth bad for the sc2 community, if players are forced to play in lesser tournaments just because they can't find global sponsors.
The idea is that regional tournaments aren't "lesser".
In an ideal world everyone and everything is international and we don't have to worry about this sort of garbage, but we aren't there yet (especially america when compared to the EU).
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On April 10 2011 08:07 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 08:03 00Visor wrote:
I don't understand Catz.
How many leagues/tournaments are there where Koreans have to make no commitment?
- TSL 3
- FXOpen Invitationals
- NASL to an extent (final is offline)
That`s all. Additionally we have a few offline tournaments with Koreans: IEM, Dreamhack.
The rest are tons of tourneys without Koreans. I really don't get what he`s complaining about. All the comparisons he makes are completely off.
- Actual sports can't take place online so of course you have to move there
- When competition is growing in some country lesser players compete for less money (like the soccer NASL), but you can't cut out good players if there is a big pricepool, I don't know any sport where that happens GSL could have had qualifiers online too... not sure what you're point is. "tons of tournaments in NA" you mean I think 6 MLG events? NASL being open to koreans in the first place was probably a bad idea considering the idea of the tournament. The fact is there are NA players with the talent to beat koreans but how many actual team houses do you see with 16 players crammed into a 3 bedroom apartment with a maid doing everything and them playing SC2 all day? The infrastructure is completely diferent and to have them compete against NA players for NA prize money doesnt make any sense if you actually want NA teams to grow. The thing is though 70% of TL and the community basically want NASL to be GSL.
We've heard this excuse before. You act as if every Korean player is in a practice house, yet the players that do now did not start that way. They had to prove themselves first, just like players in the West.
Also, the notion that practice house = better doesn't make sense either, considering there were / are a number of TL members living in the oGs practice house. Shouldn't that mean TLO and HuK would be the best Western players outside of Jinro / other TL members in Korea and taking every tournament in the West with ease?
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I sorta get what Catz says and I think MLG sorta fills that role. All it needs is a bigger prizepool and more stable setup.
I interpret it as we should have more live tournaments based in North America (no online tournaments ... the whole lag btwn Korea and NA issue would arise). If the Koreans want to come, then they have to pay their way. There is no special invite for them that seeds them higher than any other player (GSL got rid of the foreigner spot if I remember correctly). So if a Korean wants to come and play, they pay themselves (or their sponsors pay), and they are treated like a normal NA player who comes and decides to play. Having live leagues or tournaments based in the NA locale encourages NA players because if becomes prohibitively expensive to travel from other areas. That's why I believe MLG is great with the whole traveling to different cities within the US (which is so big that you almost have to have it in diff locations because it becomes too expensive to travel from Cali to say Columbus). I actually hope they can expand and maybe have a MLG Toronto or something like that.
The main idea that I got from Catz is that Koreans who want to play in live NA tournaments should not be given any special treatment.
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On April 10 2011 07:52 iNcontroL wrote:
competition starts at 4am korea time
16 man offline final IN USA
games are played on NA server (latency favors NA players -> EU -> last korea)
Yes it's online. Yes it has "NA" in the title which suggests to some it would only be for NA players.. this is of course not the case (nobody is bitching EU players are invited/involved).
Bottom line is 99% of people WANT koreans in every league because they are the best at the moment. I agree with Catz that in order for eSports to grow in the west some exclusivity needs to occur.. I think the NASL does a good job of balancing that while still appeasing the masses.
just my 2 cents.
You make a really good point. Though I believe we need Koreans in tournaments for now so that we can break this Idea that they are so much better than Foreigners. If we have exclusive tournaments people will only believe that if a Korean was there he would have taken first,2nd etc. So having Koreans in NASL Is really good so Foreigners can beat them and we break this Notion of them being a level above. The western scene is really growing once we get more Team houses like Catz we will see the much better games from Foreigners.
Just my 2 cents.
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Hyrule19192 Posts
You're louder than CatZ...something to fix please!
More comments when I'm done :O
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On April 11 2011 00:40 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 08:07 dacthehork wrote:On April 10 2011 08:03 00Visor wrote:
I don't understand Catz.
How many leagues/tournaments are there where Koreans have to make no commitment?
- TSL 3
- FXOpen Invitationals
- NASL to an extent (final is offline)
That`s all. Additionally we have a few offline tournaments with Koreans: IEM, Dreamhack.
The rest are tons of tourneys without Koreans. I really don't get what he`s complaining about. All the comparisons he makes are completely off.
- Actual sports can't take place online so of course you have to move there
- When competition is growing in some country lesser players compete for less money (like the soccer NASL), but you can't cut out good players if there is a big pricepool, I don't know any sport where that happens GSL could have had qualifiers online too... not sure what you're point is. "tons of tournaments in NA" you mean I think 6 MLG events? NASL being open to koreans in the first place was probably a bad idea considering the idea of the tournament. The fact is there are NA players with the talent to beat koreans but how many actual team houses do you see with 16 players crammed into a 3 bedroom apartment with a maid doing everything and them playing SC2 all day? The infrastructure is completely diferent and to have them compete against NA players for NA prize money doesnt make any sense if you actually want NA teams to grow. The thing is though 70% of TL and the community basically want NASL to be GSL. We've heard this excuse before. You act as if every Korean player is in a practice house, yet the players that do now did not start that way. They had to prove themselves first, just like players in the West. Also, the notion that practice house = better doesn't make sense either, considering there were / are a number of TL members living in the oGs practice house. Shouldn't that mean TLO and HuK would be the best Western players outside of Jinro / other TL members in Korea and taking every tournament in the West with ease?
Yes but everyone wants to use practice houses as an excuse and a large majority of the people here don't want to admit that some of these korean pros that make it to the top top top might just be more talented on TOP of working very hard.
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On the topic of creating an isolated, exclusive league, I don't see how that helps matters. If anything, it's headed in the direction of BW where the West played iCCup and Koreans did their own thing. Fact is, Jinro has already shown you can be successful in the Korean scene if you are good enough.
There's no secret technique that Koreans have such as practice houses, exclusive leagues, whatever. If anything this seems like a bid for the top North American players to be the top at 'something,' since it can't be GSL. Will it be good for establishing a more localized SC2 presence/interest? Sure. Is it the best way to improve and compete at the international level? Doubtful.
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Slightly off topic, but in response to people saying that the skill level of games is the only thing that matters, I really disagree. Most spectators, even the most 'hardcore' ones, sympathize with players on more levels than just how well they execute their strategies; the more charismatic and appealing to public the players and teams will be, the more popular Starcraft (or any other sports, for the matter) can become. I'm pretty sure that a potential sponsor would much rather pay a guy who takes the third place in a tournament but looks good on camera and speaks confidently in interviews afterwards than a guy who wins events but can barely put a few words together in a post-game show.
Not saying that every player has to be a smileyface cheery goody-2-shoes, but they need to have personalities and the ability to project these personalities in public, outside of their games, for Starcraft to really grow.
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because KR players will attract a bigger audience and more attention to your tournament.
Now let's ask ourselves WHY that is?
It's not because they're better. They are not. Being korean has no advantage.
Also this isn't SC1, it's over, seriously people need to get over it, the whole racial thing people keep thinking about, everytime they hear Starcraft there's a korean face in their head.
Korean players attract more because they get more attention, and that's because of their background in SC1, not their actual performance in SC2. If everyone in the world can get the same amount of social/financial support to be able to practice that much, I guarantee you koreans will end up just blending in a mass of people from everywhere. There's nothing genetic that makes koreans better, they just decided to go hardcore on it before everybody else, and when we look at it, esports are YOUNG. Things will change greatly in the future, and right now we have a good opportunity to make it grow in the west, to catch up with koreans in terms of what place esports take in our society, not talking about skills cuz that's already done.
Very few players in Korea get the salaries the western progamers get, and the list of foreign pros on a salary is much larger than it is for Korea (the difference is enormous).
Followed by this:
NA population
South Korean population
So yeah, I would actually be shitting bricks while typing this if a place with 10 times less people managed to have more well paid progamers.
Something else people seem to completely forget to consider here (I didn't read EVERY POSTS, but the discussion is still going so obviously no one pointed that out) is the fact that the problem isn't ONLY because of koreans participating in foreign tournaments. It's because our tournaments never require them to commit the same way foreigner have to commit if they wanna participate in the GSL. There's no foreign league that goes on so many times a year that it makes it practically impossible to participate without LIVING in the area. That's why CatZ said the world championship is a cool and good thing, it gives foreigner a good opportunity, but they can come back home once it's done. Which is exactly what the koreans do when they go to foreign tournaments. An important point of what CatZ was saying I believe is the fact that right now we don't have a league important enough in NA to call it OUR league. No matter what the name is, NASL is not exactly North American, and GSL is not exactly GLOBAL (there's not really anyone from around the world participating, it's more like foreigners moving to korean.... and then they participate.)
I see this very much like Martial Arts, people who do/did martial arts for a while would know what I'm talking about. Little martial art schools in a town or state/province would sometimes have little competitions or tournaments. And once in a while there's a bigger tournament where people from all around the country would gather at one place and make it a big event.
Esports should be exactly that, each place have their own league to make it easier to grow, and easier for players in general to compete in a league. Then once in a while have a big world championship, all the pros meet up for a big badass tournament, televised around the world. Like the olympics... that sounds almost exagerated, but I'm pretty sure some sports in the olympics actually have less people than SC2 does. I can see it happening. But not until people get their head out of their ass.
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